feeding live mice

[Corn_Snake1325]

hi i have a 1 foot 4 inch.corn and he always was good about eating but the last time i feed him he didnt eat the mouse and so i was thinking should i start feeding him a live pinkey but i heard that live food are bad and nt good for the snake is that true and if i do feed him live food when it comes to the point to feed him big mice or rats how will i do that because i dont want him to get bit. and last question should i breed my own mice or should i just buy them from the store??or does it matter??

Thanks,cornsnake

[ultimatecorns]

Actually, Live mice are more healthy and pose less of a digestion threat for the snake. You see, digetsion is more like a race, a race against harmful bacteria. The longer the animal is not living the more harmful bacteria can harvest in the mouse. I do realize that they freeze the mice alive, therefore no harmful bacteria. However, you then have to thaw out the mouse and then feed it to the snake. Thus giving harmful bacteria a chance to cause a problem. Feeding live mice prevents any harmful bacteria from naturally harvesting on the mouse. Also, if you are dealing with larger mice, like adults, all you have to do is stun them by holding them by their tail and with force slinging them in a circular motion onto a hard surface. Do research for mice breeders in your area, even if it means staking out at the local pet store. Just ask them what day they get their delivery and what time that day you could pick them up earliest. Then get to the store before the mouse breeder gets there, let him do his business and then talk to him. lol

[Corn_Snake1325]

so u hit them on a hard surface is there any other way to stun them???ill do it, but i want to know all the ways. because hitting them on a hard surface sounds kind of mean?

[ultimatecorns]

It sounds gruesome, yes, but it prevents them from biting or injuring your snake. You can get so tweezer like tongs and pick them up under the neck and destroy their airway (very gruesome), but i prefer stunning.

[damzookeeper]

I'm fairly new to snakes but Ewww! I've never heard of doing this to mice, that is just insain. If you are going to give it a stunned mouse why not just give it a fresh killed mouse. I don't think most of the snake keepers would take a mouse by the tail and wack it before giving it to their snakes. I eithor fresh kill or feed fuzzies or smaller, anything with eyse closed is harmless. If your snake needs larger mice I'd just wait a bit, sometimes they go off food for a feeding or two and then go right back at it. I wouldn't panic just yet and I would't wack a mouse on a hard surface, chances are if you don't kill it it could wake up before the snake got it and attack the snake anyway. If you want to try a fresh kill a clean neck break or co2 is the best human way of killing the mouse before offering to your snake. If I want movement I go with the neck breaking as their limbs will contingue to move for a few seconds. Again, I'm new to snakes and have been having a problem getting my baby corn to eat so don't take my advice solely and try to get more responses before deciding what to do.

[marisa]

That's ridiculous.

Yes it would work. Sure snakes can be fed live mice all their life. But to base the entire point on "bacteria" is misleading IMHO.

Generations, after generations of snakes have been raised on BOTH live and frozen mice exclusively. The only differance is with feeding frozen you reduce the risk of injury to your snake by 100%

Hmm which too choose, which to choose.....

Marisa

[ultimatecorns]

First off, I feed off thousands of mice just monsthy. I get them live from my regions moice breeder. I do twap them to stun them. This way is just as safe as frozen. It is also more nutritious. It doesnt take forever and a day to feed live on a large sacle as it does in f/t large scale. F/t mice are unnatural. Obviously snakes dont need frozen thawed. They actually prefer LIVE for a good reason: it's better! If I fed all my hatchlings nothing but f/t, i woul only have 25 eating each weak out of hundreds of LIVING SNAKES. Maybe f/t works for your pythons or boas, but these are Cornsnakes. Fresh killed mice are more of a threat then either f/t or live. Stunning is the way to go for hoppers and adults, with pinkies and fuzies you can just leave in the cage.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Funny, I've never had ANY trouble getting corns to eat f/t... anyone else?

[Bartman]

Are you serious? I only own 3 corns, but as far as I understand, corns are BY FAR THE LEAST picky eaters. My guys take down f/t like no tomorrow, so why even take the time to wack a rat/mouse?

Doesnt make to much sense to me.........

[marisa]

I am also stunned by your terrible numbers of FT eaterS?!?!?! You are like the only breeder in the world of corns who has trouble getting that many to eat FT.

I have had only 43 corns take their first meal here, all FT, and 100% of their clutches.

Marisa

[ultimatecorns]

Im talking about first time eating when it comes to those statistics. Also, twapping is far easier. Think about it, you do have to thaw. Stunned mice arouse the snake's appetite quicker. All you have to do for pinkies and fuzzies is put it in. All you have to do for hopper and adults is twap it on the rack of snakes and put it in our dangle it in front of it. Time=Money especially when you are paying employees :). LOL its not fair, you live in Canada, you snakes are used to all things cold. jk

[marisa]

I am also talking about VERY FIRST meals. Actually, most even before the first shed. All FT.

I am not saying you are not correct about more bacteria in a thawed rodent, what I am saying is that is NO reason not to feed FT as many thousands uopn thousands of generations of snakes all over the world have been raised on FT and it has posed no problem for them.

Marisa

[zero&stich]

I have a question, ultimate, feed exslusively live, have you ran into mites at all? Just wondering.

I personally also haven't see a corn fussy at all, even hatchlings after their first shed seem to take to FT like there goin outa style...

Stunned mice arouse the snake's appetite quicker
I kinda disagree on this. As the art of scenting plays a HUGE roll to. The ol' FT mouse in chicken broth usually entices also. And theres other ways to entice when scenting.

As far as thr stunning issue goes, why not snap the neck and kill the mouse? Same effect. Prekilling.
This is all my .02 though.

[ultimatecorns]

Stunning wont kill the mouse is my point and doesnt require any work to thaw.

[zero&stich]

Prekilling is the same effect. Mouse is in lala land but 8-10 times the nerves kick or jerk legs, arms and rest of body. Should try it and see how it works out for ya.

Stunning, I'm always wondering just how stunned the animal is. I'm always wondering if it would "wake up", lol. I personally havent used the stun meathod so I can't really vouch in his area but prekilling is alot eaiser and more effective IMHO because the mouse is dead, animal doesnt need to use much energy to strangle a dead mouse and the nerves still create the act of a live animal for those fussy eaters :)

Ultimate, with 500 corns how do you keep with all the cleaning man? lol Hire a maid?? or butler? LOL just kidding around. =)

[El_Gringo]

You're right, stunning won't kill the mouse.
I just dont understand why you dont kill it while your at it. That would be the more humane way to do it, im sure your snakes will eat just as well on f/k than stunned.
I dont know, maybe you get a kick
out of living things dying slowly.

[MouseKilla]

Ya know, I was just thinking that we don't have many threads that go on for 7 or 8 pages before being closed by a mod these days...lol!

[ultimatecorns]

Lol. My point is twapping them is the fastes way: You just get the mouse out of the container, twap them, and put them in. Prekilling takes more TIME and that is something we dont have if we want to finish feeding in a snmall period of time. Think how long it would take you to feed all my animals your method, well my method is really fast and having 2 employees cuts it down to a few hours for each of us.

[rwg]

Maybe twapping is faster than thawing, but I've never had to clean, feed or water the rodents in my freezer. I guess I could pick them up fresh every feeding day but guess what? Thawing is faster than going out and buying live rodents twice a week.

Nutrition: It used to be generally accepted that frozen meats were pretty much equivalent to fresh in terms of nutritional value but that fruits and vegetables lost much of their nutrition by freezing. In 1998 the FDA rules that even frozen produce is equivalent to the fresh form in nutiritional profile.

Snakes dont prefer live "because it's better". They have no concept of what's better or worse for them. They prefer live because they have an instinct for catching and killing their own prey. Suitable carrion is harder to find in the wild, but snakes have been known to take it in the wild.

Bacteria: Bacteria grow on live-fed or frozen/thawed prey during digestion. digestion takes days to complete. In the F/T scenario, the bacteria have a head-start of maybe an hour. That's not really all that significant. When bacteria wins the race, it's almost always because either the meal was too large or the temps were wrong.

I'm not particularily against live feeding, but I dont buy that it's better for my snakes.

rg

[zero&stich]

Lol. My point is twapping them is the fastes way: You just get the mouse out of the container, twap them, and put them in. Prekilling takes more TIME and that is something we dont have if we want to finish feeding in a snmall period of time. Think how long it would take you to feed all my animals your method, well my method is really fast and having 2 employees cuts it down to a few hours for each of us.

Heh. I can snap the neck of a mouse litterally in 3 secs. Exp friend didnt wanna kill a mouse. Moral Values, but anyway I killed 20 mice for him less then 4 mins. I know cause I had him time me for grins.

So I don't bout stunning being quicker. I can kill a mouse just as easily and just as quick. But that is only my opinion. We're all entitled to our own.

I prefer prekilling anyday and like I said, just as quick and less of a risk of injuries vs stunning, if I have to feed live.

I'd prefer weanling rats to feed to adult female corns anyway.

[vanderkm]

Originally posted by Corn_Snake1325
hi i have a 1 foot 4 inch.corn and he always was good about eating but the last time i feed him he didnt eat the mouse and so i was thinking should i start feeding him a live pinkey but i heard that live food are bad and nt good for the snake is that true and if i do feed him live food when it comes to the point to feed him big mice or rats how will i do that because i dont want him to get bit. and last question should i breed my own mice or should i just buy them from the store??or does it matter??

Thanks,cornsnake

Just with respect to the original issue -
the snake may have refused food because he was coming into a shed. While some will feed during a shed, many times they will refuse a meal or two while shedding. With some color corns it can be hard to detect the 'blue' phase. I would leave him for 7-10 days before offering again - I suspect he may shed in that time and be interested in feeding a day or so after shedding. Suprisingly, we find many corns don't want food the same day as they shed, even though they may not have eaten for a couple weeks and you would think they would be hungry.

On breeding your own feeders - if you breed, you can control quality and have a steady supply if you breed enough. We found it took more time than it was worth to us - I buy frozen from reliable breeders who provide quality rodents.

On the issue of live vs dead vs stunned - we feed frozen because it is more convenient for us and cheaper (in money but more importantly in time) than using live. We feed live when an animal requires it (which is rare). When we have had corns that were non-feeders, they refused live as well as dead prey though some of our milks definately prefer live to dead. We don't have a huge commercial operation - it may be more time efficient to use live or stunned in some circumstances.

In most cases, effective stunning results in such severe brain trauma that the animal will never recover consciousness and will die even if not eaten. It is a method of choice for euthanizing large rats (alternate to CO2) because it is physically difficult for most people to break their necks.

I am not convinced that the growth of bacteria in the gut of rodents, either after death or after thawing has any impact on the nutritional quality of the prey or the risk of pathogenic bacteria building up in the rodent gut that would cause problems for the snake. If there is any published information to substantiate that theory, it would be great if someone could provide links to it.

mary v.

[Corn_Snake1325]

so is there any diffents in feeding live mice then froven mice or is it just the bitting park?i heard there is a risk of geting mites????

[Invictus]

Back to the original issue - you have a 1'4" corn and you are still feeding it pinkies?!?!?!?!?! a 1 foot corn can easily take hopper mice. Maybe that's why he won't eat. The prey is too small.

RWG hit the nail right on the head. Using bacteria as an argument is absolutely silly. A 1 hour headstart on a week long process is not an argument AT ALL. Secondly, captivity is not natural, so don't give me the "it's more natural" crap either. YOu want natural? Throw a king snake in with it. Then you'll have a natural condition too! Thirdly, of course you need to feed them live for their first meal, but after that, corns especially don't even know the difference. I give my corns a F/T mouse or rat, and they strike it and coil it like they are trying to pop its fricken eyeballs out. So if you're going to feed live, do it. I'm sick of debating the absolutely irresponsible threat that poses to your snakes. But please, get some REAL arguments. Bacteria, More Natural, and better appetite are all fallacies.

[Corn_Snake1325]

o really hoppers o wow im dumb ill feed it hoppers then and so feeding live is no diffent then froven the dif is it can bite right ???

[Invictus]

A hopper can bite HARD. I wouldn't go from pinkies right up to hoppers though... there still has to be a transition. But start with F/T large fuzzies and I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts your corn snake will eat.

[Corn_Snake1325]

wait i dont think he can eat on i thinks he about a foot beacuse the pinkeys are as big as his thickest part of his body???and do u feed your snake with live food and have u hade any problems ???

[Will]

Corns will eat prey items quite a bit thicker than their body. If he's as thin as a pinky, he probably should be getting more food...

[Corn_Snake1325]

how maney times should i feed him i feed him every 6 days?

[gonesnakee]

"Cornsnake Manual" By Bill & Kathy Love approx cost $10 will answer everything you need to know & a whole lot more. These folks wrote the book on Corns Literally LOL Everyone has an opinion & more often than not aren't very worthy. Take the word of published authors & worldwide respected breeders over anything you read here anyday. IMHO Mark

[Will]

Every 6 days is fine. Missing one meal isn't really a biggie either, no need to panic.

It just seems to me that a corn as thin as a pinkie mouse could use more food. I would might expect that from a corn fresh out of the egg, but not one that is close to 1'. I would either bump up the size of his prey, or the frequency of his meals - or both.

I would at least try a good sized f/t fuzzy(1.5X his thickness if possible), and get him on those first. After one or two of those, I would bump him up to eating every 4-5 days, cause it sounds like he needs to pack on some weight - especially if he really is that thin and over 1' in length...

Can you post a pic of him next to something to use as a size reference(like a penny)...? That might better show us how big/thick he is...

[Corn_Snake1325]

i dont have a cam but if u have a pic of a corn about 1 foot ill tell u if hes that size

[Corn_Snake1325]

if u look at the tread in the corn snake fourum and the tread my new corn... by tigergenis thats about the size he is.

[Andy_G]

Originally posted by ultimatecorns
However, you then have to thaw out the mouse and then feed it to the snake. Thus giving harmful bacteria a chance to cause a problem.

I don't know about you, but I haven't thawed my prey items and then left them for 2 days just so bacteria can set in on the decaying animal, even if i were to...snakes eat carrion from time to time in the wild...so I am not so sure on just what you think would be so detrimental to your animals...freezing prey, if anything, is easier on their system, it breaks down the cells, and one could extremely safely hypothesise that digestive enzymes simply will not have to work as hard on an animal that is partially broken down, and not from bacteria either...yes I will grant to you that vitamin C is cut down a large amount when you freeze food but reptiles don't usually need a lot of it...we ingest it because our immune systems need the help...an endotherm's immune system, as most of us know, is built COMPLETELY different in comparison to an ectotherm's(I am hoping you can think about what was just stated and form a conclusion about what I am trying to say here on your own). Then there is the issue on parasites...

You just can't convince me with your argument that freezing a prey item is worse then stunning or feeding freshly killed.

Also, could you please stop spreading the misinformation...this is the second thread I have come across with you outputting diluted information to new people just venturing into this hobby, and they deserve to know the truth, not what someone thinks is the truth. With your large collection you ought to know better then that and know to think before you speak so you are confident that you speak the truth and not just a personal opinion...

Edited for spelling errors. :)

[Invictus]

Corn1325 - I give my babies pinkies for their first 10 meals only, then move them up to 2 pinkies for 10 meals - then it's on to fuzzies, and they should be taking adults within the first year. I don't agree with feeding equal to their girth. If you've ever seen a newborn corn snake, a pinky is about 2x their girth. That's how they are fed as newborns, it's how they should be fed their whole lives. Make sense?

[MouseKilla]

Ken,

This is off topic but I don't think there is anything wrong with feeding equal to girth, it just means growing snakes don't grow as fast and won't be sexually mature as soon.

I'm feeding my own baby corns pretty much the way you've described but do you feed your adult males that way?

I only feed my adult male colubrids every 2 -3 weeks and they get an item that is usually a little bit more than their girth but definitely not 2x girth.

[Invictus]

My adult males get 100g small rats that are about 2x their girth, yes. (Well, 1.5x in the case of Morpheus, but you've seen how freakish he is, hehehe) Before I got the rats I was giving them 2 jumbo adult mice. But, like your adults, the frequency of their feeding is much less... every 2-3 weeks.

[Corn_Snake1325]

hi im tryed to feed my corn a live rat pinkey and i droped it in and all the snake did is look at it and put its head on it or next to it without opening his mouth?is because i never feed him live mice and hes not use to his meal moving?

[reptiguy420]

ultimatecorns thats just ********...f/t mice or rats have absolutely NO bacteria or parasites why do you ask?Because f/t kills all bacteria and/or parasites.Saying its easier to bust a mice skulls on a table or what not is just absurd and stupid.Besides that whatever harmful parasite your mouse might have, guess what your snake just digested it, and may have just aquired it.So yes f/t is the way to go, and is definately more safe for the snake, as well as less abusive to the mouse itself.Its not like the f/t mice are just tossed into a freezer to die, they are humanely euthinized.Just my 2 cents.:grab:

[Corn_Snake1325]

my corn is allways hitting/rudding/pushing his noise on the glass is that normal???is he trying to shed like pull the skin off his face???beacause his eyes were cloudy on sat and today is eyes are clear but the sheding is nowhere to be found????

[Frillie]

Ya their eyes clear up for a couple of days before they shed. Make sure you have a branch or rock inside the enclosure for him to start the shed. If you do then the snake is pushing on glass because either:
1) it is too hot inside the enclosure...check your temps.
2) the enclosure is too small...
3) it is hungry

good luck


peace

[zero&stich]

Anyway, with respect to corn_snake-
From what I read, there is prolly a good chance your corn will shed soon like Frillie pointed out. Make sure there is something rough for it to start shedding and pending what your humidity is at, you may need to lightly mist the enclosure to increase the humidity level. Just make sure you can measure the % value accuratly.

[Corn_Snake1325]

hi i just put a live rat pinkey and its pretty big bigger then the girth.he try to to eeat it but it moved when he hade his head on it.should i stud it or something???

[zero&stich]

Not totally sure I understood what happaned with the pink but if its a newborn, they can take something larger than the girth of their body. I think Ken mentioned he's feeding his adults 100g rats. A snake can unhook their jaw, basic machanics of a snake. But if its a pink they can barely move let alone open a mouth so I wouldn't think you need to stun it unless its a godzilla of a pinkie! ;)

Did that help?

[ultimatecorns]

I talked to my mouse guy that delivers up the SW Florida Coast thousands of mice weekly. I asked him Which was better Live or Frozen? He said Live is more nutritional because when you freeze a mouse it looses its bulk. He also commented on bacteria and how frozen mice are likely to have bacteria. He says live is better for getting a firm healthy snake with a nice girth and muscle tone.

[spidergecko]

Originally posted by zero&stich
Heh. I can snap the neck of a mouse litterally in 3 secs. Exp friend didnt wanna kill a mouse. Moral Values, but anyway I killed 20 mice for him less then 4 mins. I know cause I had him time me for grins.

Quite disturbing. You made killing mice into a game? I would think every effort would be taken to ensure the animal died with as little suffering as possible. I don't believe this can be done by rushing.

[ultimatecorns]

Well I'm sure if you had to feed snakes alot like zero and stitch, you would try to make it as bearable as possible. Making it into a game always lightens the mood.

[zero&stich]

Ok in my opinion I've seen far, FAR too many animals brought into the store I work at with scarring and broken jaws and that was feeding live/stunned. Didn't really think it was nessessary to bring it up.

As far as from what was said by a supplier, that's rediculious! Ever thought bout dusting with a vitamin supplement? Or Vit D3 supplement on alternate days? Why pose the risk off internal, external paracites, scarring, disfigurment ect. I think the cons of feeding live greatly outnumber the minor lack of nutrition that can be easily solved with a good dusting of suppliments. If need be, UVB can be used to achieve calcium loss to.

This is only my opinion, but you just cannot convince me that your theories are accurate enough to pose that feeding stunned/live is better. Until you see a snake brought into you face to face with a broken jaw and damanged tissue(Don't ask why it wasn't brought to a vet first, IDK.) maybe only then you will relize what a risk anyone that feeds live poses, stunned or not.

[Andy_G]

Originally posted by ultimatecorns
I talked to my mouse guy that delivers up the SW Florida Coast thousands of mice weekly. I asked him Which was better Live or Frozen? He said Live is more nutritional because when you freeze a mouse it looses its bulk. He also commented on bacteria and how frozen mice are likely to have bacteria. He says live is better for getting a firm healthy snake with a nice girth and muscle tone.

You need to find better friends...perhaps ones that aren't stupid.

On a side note...making a game out of feeding your snakes just to lighten the mood...I say quit snakes and embark on a quest to become scrabble champion if "fun" is your thing...I fail to see the point in running a risk that your animals will be affected by crypto due to not freezing...

I would also suggest to the new people coming into the hobby...do not listen to this guy...ever...at least at this point...because either he comes across wrong and just gives the wrong impression about what he is trying to say or means what he says and is flat out wrong.

[ultimatecorns]

I see your point Zero. But do you see mine, if you know how to stun them as good as you know how to kill them, then there isnt that possibility. Lol. There is no reason to freeze anything except hoppers and adults. I dont do frozen regurlarly like i used to, but if I get hit by a natural phenomena *cough*Hurricane Charley *cough*

[zero&stich]

Quite disturbing. You made killing mice into a game? I would think every effort would be taken to ensure the animal died with as little suffering as possible. I don't believe this can be done by rushing.

I'm sorry I worded it wrong. I was making a point, I can prekill a mouse just as quick and effectively as stunning and making a point that prekilling IMO is safer. Unfortunalty I'm very very used to prekilling rodents, and it does not effect me in the least anymore. I appogize.

[Andy_G]

Seems like he's now trying to redeem himself so he doesn't look as bad...fully explain what you mean the first time around...people will think more of you...

[zero&stich]

Yes Ultimate I understand fully. Unfortunatly because of seeing animals injured from a month to month basis to poor husbantry upsets me greatly and most of it is from not thinking thing through, not an attack to you, I'm refering to people in general.
Good day to you sir.
Corn_snake-Maybe a new thread is in order, lol. I'm sry bud this turned out to be WW3.

[ultimatecorns]

Thank-you Zero. For responding politely un like others, who are savages.
You need to find better friends...perhaps ones that aren't stupid.
On a side note...making a game out of feeding your snakes just to lighten the mood...I say quit snakes and embark on a quest to become scrabble champion if "fun" is your thing...I fail to see the point in running a risk that your animals will be affected by crypto due to not freezing...
I would also suggest to the new people coming into the hobby...do not listen to this guy...ever...at least at this point...because either he comes across wrong and just gives the wrong impression about what he is trying to say or means what he says and is flat out wrong.

Ok this is goin a little to far. I need to find friends that aren't stupid? You dont even listen to advice given by a guy that has been doing mice for a LONG time (my mouse breeder). If he is stupid, then you must be... well nevermind. Im sorry for actually trying to enjoy something I like to do, I think I will try to make it as boring, tiring, and unbearable as possible, sounds like you are one of those people who if had alot of snakes would make it as boring as possible. You run you life your way, I will live mine enjoyably thankyou. I advise everybody in that I have 500+ cornsnakes and know what I am doing. My website is www.ultimatecornsnakes.com
I have sold many animals, and am a reputable breeder, just ask around you will find out:D I apologize for anyone who has to read this and Andy D 's ridiculous post, but their are those in this industry that are like that. Happy herping.:cool:

[Andy_G]

I definitely do not need to justify what I posted, this is the second time you have spread misinformation, the first time I was nice, but now this is getting old...I am ending it here with you. If you want to take this furthur please PM me by all means. I will not be replying directly to any of your posts...but don't expect me to be the only one that is "savage" with you or the only person that once thought "Oh wow he has an impressive collection of animals and his site is not too bad." and now thinks "What is the world coming to..."

[ultimatecorns]

Yeah it might be a little hard to justify against a long time of mice breeding experience I have from my "stupid friend". I assure you I have not spread any misinformation. You are just a rude, annoying little trouble maker. What is the world coming to you ask? Please tell me cause it seems like it is becoming like you.

[marisa]

Actually you most certaintly DID spread misinfo!
You stated live mice are better for a snakes health. You said that in your very first post in this thread.

That is simply unproven, not true, and you have no evidence to back it up whatso ever....in fact, there is evidence, and YEARS worth showing the complete opposite of what you stated. You don't call that misinformation?

Saying YOU feed live because you want too is one thing, that's fine. But telling someone live is BETTER is 100% different, and misleading.

Marisa

[ultimatecorns]

Ok, no it isnt misleading. Ive fed millions of mice by now and through my experience Live is better. That is not misleading. The only thing misleading is your comprehension of that.

[marisa]

YOUR experience! LOL

Experience is NOT fact! You have NO idea what is going on INSIDE your snake to be able to state its healthier to feed live mice! I am on your side that you should be able to state your experience and opinions, but to use your experience to call one method better over the other without any actual proven fact other than your corns live and breed, is just misinformation!

Marisa

[ultimatecorns]

Experience hmm? I have already said that i have tried f/t. I have also tried prekilled. Experience is the fact. My mouse breeder has been doing this for 10 years, and i have known him for a while. I think he knows what he is talking about. And yes I am stating that stunned mice a better method. I have fed many mice enough times to Experience this. Through experience comes knowledge, but some of us dont have either.

[zero&stich]

To put an end to this rubbish once an for all, ultimate, if you go back to page once the number of people greatly outstack you and some of the people posted in this thread, from the short time I been hear, have been invloved with herps over 10+ years and all of them support mine and the guy up there's theories. Looks like your the one sitting out in the raft alone while where sipping tea on a yacht.

Editing spellin errors.

[marisa]

The worst kind of reptile keeper is one who refuses to learn anything new.

Marisa

[Andy_G]

My last post on this or any other issue this guy brings up...I promise! :)

Your breeder friend may have been breeding mice successfully for a long time, I give credit to him for that, but your friend saying that live is better than frozen/thawed is completely unfounded and irrelivant, what is the logic behind it exactly...and that's probably not just my opinion either.

I think you stated that your friend says since the animal is more dense before freezing, it is more healthy, how does that make any sense. The animal's raw matter does not just dissapear when it's frozen...going back to basic science...no matter can be created or destroyed, only changed...where does everything go when you use your friend's logic? If it doesn't simply disappear...which you make it seem so...what does the matter convert to? I think I will go with that well known law of science rather than your friend's shady, unfounded theory...

[Brent Strande]

I'm still not sure how whacking EACH mouse can be quicker than thawing...

ESPECIALLY for 500 snakes! You say it only takes 3 seconds... That alone comes to 25 minutes spent whacking the mice... (3*500/60) Then, you still have to go in and drop the mouse into EACH CONTAINER... keep in mind that this only takes 25 minutes if EVERY mouse takes only 3 seconds... if it were for some freakish reason to take only 6 seconds you would be spending nearly an hour killing them.

In that same 25 minutes of killing, with FT you could simply toss the frozen mice into a bucket or two and leave them while beginning to clean cages (killing two birds with one stone!) and then after the 25 minutes you could run some hot water to heat them up. In the meantime you would have cleaned a good number of cages.

TIME=MONEY right? Why not save time by gettting the cleaning done during the time that wouldve been wasted killing the mice?

[zero&stich]

Well in his caresheet to his site he suggests to dump bedding every 4-8 months ... :S

[DragnDrop]

Okay, let's keep this a civil discussion limited to the pros and cons of feeding live vs. F/T. Keep the nasties out of your posts. Right now it's still a discussion but starting to cross the line.
If you don't agree with someone's reasoning, don't attack, just explain. Keep the references to a certain website out of it, since it's not on the topic of feeding.

We've got a lot of good info here to debunk a popular myth, let's not lose that info by having the thread removed.

[Cedille]

Unless someone actually has proof, it's only an opinion. And unfortunately opinions can't be wrong :S

However, if someone wants to represent their opinion as fact, they really should be able to back it up with some evidence.

I've never had a corn that wasn't a juvenile refuse F/T, unless they were shedding. I'm sure many other corn keepers on the site have the same experience. In the case of shedding, why worry about it? It's not a big deal if a snake skips one meal. Wait until it's done shedding and try again.

I think the cornsnake manual would be a wise investment. It's certainly easier and more reliable than waiting for people's "opinions" to be posted in the forums as replies.


On a side note, i'm a little confused by the expectation that a 12" corn should be eating hoppers.

This is one of my hatchlings from this year. The interior of the rubbermaid is about 8" x 12.5".

http://members.rogers.com/ontarioherpers/corns/babycorn1.JPG

That makes this newborn about 12" long already.

I don't think he should be eating hoppers? lol