Malaysian species, what would YOU get?

[Nikki Gervais]

Hi everyone,
well a rare opportunity came up for me to get some herps from Malaysia, so what to get? I don't even know what all is native to there besides boiga dendrophila ssp, python reticulatus and a few others.

What should I get? Preferably rare species that Canada and the US doesn't see very often. It looks like I am already getting 1.1 python reticulatus, 1.1 boiga dendrophila melanota and 1.1 gonyosoma oxycephala. That is unless there is some reason I cannot get them. So could someone help me out? No CITES 1 species please, I don't have the time to beg for permits LOL. I'm also mostly into snakes and crocs but Malaysia doesn't have any crocs that I could get and properly house at the moment LOL. Also I was offered a king cobra basically free but, I think I'm gonna have to pass up on that offer. :p

So come on ppl, if you didn't have a mimimum order to make, what would ya get? :) hehe

[Katt]

Are you finding the CITES easy for those retics?

[Nikki Gervais]

I'm not too sure how CITES works, however I was told that as long as they aren't CITES 1 species it isn't that difficult, or is it? :confused:

[casacrow]

Nikki,

There are over 100 species of snakes living within the Malaysian borders. Some that spring to mind are bloods,Green tree pit viper (Trimeresurus gramineus), Temple vipers(Trimeresus wagleri), Whip snake(Ahaetulla prasina) and a few snakes that are all very similar to cat snakes. I want them all...lol

[Katt]

CITES II still require paperwork to bring into Canada, that includes all boids. If this person had told you, then something's a tad fishy. I'd look it up, don't get yourself into trouble.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Good luck getting a Retic without CITIES paperwork!! Ha ha. Appendix II my friend. DOn't get thrown in jail for a pair of wild caught retics. Not worth it.

[Nikki Gervais]

No worries guys/gals, if we can't get the paperwork, I won't get em. I'm more interested in the hots and the rare colubrids anyway since I can get retics over here easy. No worries bout CITES since I have NO intentions of doing it illegally. SO what would you guys get if you could? I wanna make the expensive shipping worth while but I'm not quite sure what else I want to get...

Donny, I know exactly how you feel lol, I wanna get a pair of bloods also but I read they were listed under CITES 2, if I can get the permits tho, I'll get some. :) :D The cat snakes, and the vine or whip snakes is what interest me THE most! I'm dyin for a pair of boiga dendrophila melanota, and since they aren't CITES listed, it looks good! :D

[Grant vg]

U want hots?
Arn't u located in Ontario?
The last time i checked they were illegal?

[tex_01]

they still are illegal inontairo if u dont have a lincese for keeping them

[casacrow]

Grant- where was the last place that you checked about the legality of hots in Ontario? I was under the impression that the keeping of venomous species was covered by municipal bylaw not provincial law. If I am wrong please correct me. I was also unaware of the licence that tex01 is talking about. Could you please elaborate on the conditions of this licence?

[jay76]

I haven't actually seen the bylaw with my own two eyes on official city hall stationary, but I was told that hots are legal here in Lindsay... if I had the desire to keep them, I'd look into it, but they're out of my league and I know it... that sort of coincides with the municipal coverage theory right?

[Grant vg]

Casacrow, sorry for my generalization,
It is perfectly legal to import/expot any type of venemous snake in Canada, however, there are only a few municipalities that allow the actual keeping of hots.
Well.....actually, there just isn't a law!
But as soon as a hots keeper moves in to a town with no By-law, and some of the locals find out. ....INSTANT-BYLAW!!!
Its instances like this that get pythons and boas banned.....
Cities think, well, we'll re-write the laws and ban Hots, and while were at it we'll ban pythons AND boas too!

Now one place i can think of that doesn't mind hots is Port colbourne.
This is where Mike Barron has moved his dragon farms establishment.
But we wont get into why hes still there and no by-laws have been made.:rolleyes:

I dont have the sources that outline whos got what by-laws, etc...
because im not interested in hots, although very beautiful, i dont think they should be kept by private keepers. just my opinion.

But i look at it like this, if a by-law would be enacted in a municipality at the first instance of someone keeping hots. then in my eyes it is already illegal, and it doesn't make sense to try to keep hots just because the by-law doesn't actually state that they're illegal. Knowing that YOU, or whoever in question, could be responsible for MORE laws being made.
And making it worse off for the rest of us.
Many of the ppl who want hots, and who are capable of purchasing hots, arn't experienced enough for it.

I know a guy who keeps a rhino viper in Toronto, i also know the guy who let loose the Hot in Parkdale, Toronto a couple years back.
Both of these guys are hardly what i would consider representatives of the Hots community. But It is these instances that i speak about above.

Now Nikki, I believe u are a young lady, and im assuming ur probably not experienced enough to work with hots.
Do u know where you are gonna get the antivenom?
Do u have the tools to handle hots, do u have the skill and knowledge to be able to keep u, ur snake, ur family and ur neighbourhood safe?
I think if one was to keep hots your family should all know that they are potentially fatal, and should be taken very serious.
Do they know what to do if you get bitten, do they know what to do if they get bitten???
When u go to change there substrate, and have to remove them from the cage, what happens if they get loose and crawl into a vent?
Its things like this that must be taken into consideration very seriously, and IMO no onw should keep hots unless they have a full proof facility.

Anyways, im just ranbling on.
A concerned herper.

Gvg

[Dunner]

i agree with you 110% grant...well actually 100% because theres nothing more than 100%, so i'm stupid for saying, that i deeply apologize to all whom i offended, thank you...and goodnight

[Grant vg]

LOL:D

[Quervo]

Here, here Grant .. you are absolutely correct on the 'hots spurring bylaws' issue. Our group out west have run into that many times. Fortunately we have managed to keep most of the bylaws to only banning the hots, but it's a running battle.

[Dunner]

i don't know what it is with hots, theres a lot of beautiful snakes, but is the beauty worth the risk really? i know there are a lot of expeirenced hots keepers out there, but to everyone thats not, really give it some thought, it's not like saying "oh i want a snake" hmmmmmmm yes puff adder, they're cool!! leave it to the pros

[Nikki Gervais]

Grant:
More often then not boas and pythons are the first to cause bylaws to spring up from concerned neighbors. However I have lived in my town for years (almost a decade) and it is well known by many that I have an interest in and keep large constrictors, crocodilians, and other potentially dangerous reptiles and invertebrates. Not once have I got a complaint or a warning. Why? Because I am a responsible keeper. No escapies, and beautiful healthy specimens.

Instead of worrying about what bylaws the few hot keepers are going to create, perhaps you should be more concerned about someone bringing their 5-ft blood or their 10-ft burm into their backyard. I'm sure my 80yr old neighbour would LOVE to see those.
Now Nikki, I believe u are a young lady, and im assuming ur probably not experienced enough to work with hots.
I'm not going to start an all out war over this however I feel that it is uncalled for stating that because I am young I do not have enough experience.
Do u know where you are gonna get the antivenom?
As of yet, no I do not have access to antivenin, hence why I do not keep any hots. Once I have access to antivenin I will start keeping them.
Do u have the tools to handle hots, do u have the skill and knowledge to be able to keep u, ur snake, ur family and ur neighbourhood safe?
I have some of the tools required, but I do not have all, another reason why I am not yet keeping them. I am not an immature keeper, and I do know the procedures and the dangers envolved in keeping hots. So yes, I have the knowledge to keep myself, my snake, my family and my neighbourhood safe.

However skills to work with hots are learned. I have plenty of skill, but there are some you can only aquire when working with hots. Working with nasty tempered, strike first, ask questions later species such as corallus hortulanus is a good way to learn some skills. However no matter what anyone says, you can not learn all necessary skills without hands on experience.

That is why you start out small, with species that are somewhat forgiving when compared to other more dangerous species. A starter hot such as agkistrodon piscivorous ssp are an excellent choice. They are known for their bad tempers and spazzy behavior.
I think if one was to keep hots your family should all know that they are potentially fatal, and should be taken very serious.
Do they know what to do if you get bitten, do they know what to do if they get bitten???
Anyone who doesn't realize that all hots are potentially lethal should not be working with them in the first place. As for a scenerio where someone gets bitten, everyone (my father and myself) know the procedures and will have the contact info for the antivenin and the nearest hospital. Until I have contact info, no hots of the viperidae, elapidae or any similar genera will be in my care.
When u go to change there substrate, and have to remove them from the cage, what happens if they get loose and crawl into a vent?
Its things like this that must be taken into consideration very seriously, and IMO no onw should keep hots unless they have a full proof facility.
When removing them from their cages, you are to place them in a holding cage or container and close the lid or doors properly, every hot keeper with half a brain knows that. If hot keepers practice safe handling and keeping procedures accidents can be avoided. Oh and just to let you know, there are no vents in my house, just electric plug-in wall heaters.

Dunner:
To myself and hundreds of other responsible hot keepers, their beauty IS worth the risk. For we know that when they are properly housed there is no risk of escape, when the proper tools are used there is minimal risk of envenomation. Anyone who goes out and buys hots because they are cool, needs to stick with cornsnakes. Those are the ppl that give other responsible keepers a bad name.

------

Now since this post was originally about what species others would get from Malaysia if they could, I thought I would mention that so far it looks good for 10 (most are rare) species listed. Only 2 are CITES II species, and those specimens are CB. :)

[Grant vg]

Nikki,

In no way was i trying to offend or insult YOU or YOUR intelligence.

But, You have to understand that you keeping Hots has an affect on everyone on this site as well as anyone else in Canada keeping reptiles. So i think I and anyone else has the right to question your knowledge and experience.

The same way one would question a newie who has a BP and is thinking about purchasing a retic as there second snake.

I am a firm believer that age does hold a certain amount of weight when dealing with Hots, however questionable. i believe that there is a certain amount of experience (that comes with time) one must have, to keep potentially fatal snakes.
Something that most teens dont have, not neccessarily meaning you.

Now, I was assuming u didn't have antivenom, and all the required bases covered, and it seemed like you were going to order these snakes sooner then later.
and someone of your demographics isnt the typical hot keeper.
Thus, the reason i was so concerned and questioning you.

In the end, the choice is up to you. i am just one of the many concerned herpers who is out to protect everyone in this hobby and to make sure ppl are completely ready for whatever situation they put themselves in.

You cant blame a person for caring.
I could have easily, not givin my 2 cents, and not care.
I didn't see anyone else ask u if u are experienced enough to work with hots? and that bothers me, because how can one give advice on such a serious issue, (which keeping hots is a very serious issue), without knowing/asking how experienced the person is?


Anyways, Maybe im totally off here.
just some stuff to think about. .

Gvg

[Nikki Gervais]

Grant,
But, You have to understand that you keeping Hots has an affect on everyone on this site as well as anyone else in Canada keeping reptiles.Until I screw up and take a hit from a hot and it makes the media, it does NOT affect anyone else in Canada.
and someone of your demographics isnt the typical hot keeper. Now you lost me on this one... Unless you're just refering to my age, wanna clarify this for me?
In the end, the choice is up to you. i am just one of the many concerned herpers who is out to protect everyone in this hobby and to make sure ppl are completely ready for whatever situation they put themselves in.

You cant blame a person for caring.
I could have easily, not givin my 2 cents, and not care.
I didn't see anyone else ask u if u are experienced enough to work with hots? and that bothers me, because how can one give advice on such a serious issue, (which keeping hots is a very serious issue), without knowing/asking how experienced the person is?
Ok Grant, yer right on that one. It is up to me, but there is no need to be concerned because I feel I am ready and if not, I will avoid hots till I am. I'm not sure whether it was because noone cared or because they have read my previous posts on hots and assumed I was ready, none the less, thank you for your concern. :)

Either way, my intentions are not to limit Canadian herpers collections through new laws, but to expand them through captive bred beauties. The chances of me bringing in hots this time are VERY slim, I don't have all the proper equipment and I'm not willing to take any risks when dealing with venomous species. I may be able to pick up the equipment by then, if not, there is always next time. :)

However it looks good for several species of rare rear-fanged colubrids, these species are not considered life threatening with nil to few local symptoms. Cat-eye, vine/whip and flying tree snake species to name a few, I can't wait to get em! :) :D

[silke]

I have read your previous posts and do believe that you are a consciencious and knowledgeable herper.

However I disagree that you keeping Hots only affects you.
The mere potential for a problem affects all herp keepers.

The media is quick to slam herps lately and whether you like it or not, some people will judge you by your age. Judgemental people exist and the publicity on herps brings out a lot of this.
ANY publicity lately is bad publicity.

[Nikki Gervais]

Hey Silke,
I have read your previous posts and do believe that you are a consciencious and knowledgeable herper. Thanks :)
However I disagree that you keeping Hots only affects you. The mere potential for a problem affects all herp keepers.
I know it affects all of us if a problem occurs, which is why safe practices are in place and there is NO room for error. I did say: Until I screw up and take a hit from a hot and it makes the media, it does NOT affect anyone else in Canada. And that is the truth, until something goes wrong and I happen to get media attention, it is only my concern. The fact that I am keeping them causes no problems unless I announce it nationally and scare the s*** outta a bunch of uneducated individuals who propose bans. And in that case, until I get over my fright of public speaking I don't think anyone has anything to worry about. :p

I am hearing of more and more Canadian hot keepers all the time it seems, they just don't announce themselves, which is probably a good thing. Perhaps I should just shut my trap. lol :p

[silke]

HEH heh
I promise I won't tell anyone
LOL
Scotty Alen used to keep hots for a long time so if you have any questions he might be able to help.
I hope you know i wish you only the best... :)

[Nikki Gervais]

hehe thanks Silke :)