View Full Version : A New Species Of Giant Ape?
Okay,
Now this is COOL!
"The New Scientist, The Age (an Australian newspaper), Daily Telegraph (a British newspaper), BBC, and the Discovery Channel are talking excitedly about a strange primate, found in the Congo. Locals say it is notorious for killing fully-grown adult lions. Optimists hope that it is a new species, maybe related to the gorilla. Pessimists claim it's an overgrown chimpanzee. In either case, primates aren't discovered every day, making this a rare find indeed."
Discovery Channel Story here (http://animal.discovery.com/news/afp/20041004/giantape.html)
BBC Story Here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3730574.stm)
Daily Telegraph story here (http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/07/wchimp07.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/10/07/ixworld.html)
CDN-Cresties
10-11-04, 07:33 PM
That certainly is interesting. I would love to see the video of these new primates, if infact they are a new species. Thanks for posting that.
Artemis
10-11-04, 07:45 PM
Wow heck yeah! Just the other day someone was yakking in another thread about how there couldnt possibly be any undiscovered species left with all our technological glory. Touche' to that!
Yay giant lion eating apes!
I love this quote:
"We could hear them in the trees, about 20 feet away," she said. "My tracker made a sound of an injured duiker [antelope] and four came rushing through the brush towards me.
"If this had been a bluff charge, they would have been screaming to intimidate us. These guys were quiet. And they were huge. They were coming in for the kill. I was directly in front of them, and as soon as they saw my face, they stopped and disappeared."
lostwithin
10-11-04, 07:56 PM
I honestly hope it is a new species, it's always good when primateology gets stirred up. It makes for a good read, they are having enough trouble solidifying the great ape evolutionary chain with the recent genetic discoveries that point too chimps being more related to humans then other apes. Addition of another species especially a relative too chimps would be great.
Devon
JimmyDavid
10-11-04, 08:35 PM
Artemis, it's possible that you mean ME, because i did in fact say that it's HARD (never said impossible) to find a new species for a big animal these days.
Not touche at all, because nothing has been proven yet. In fact, the all storie is full of mistakes. They say it's not a common gorilla because it's 300 miles off gorilla territorie. Species can migrate, you know?
It can kill a grown lion? Never,never, never, never, read it again: never! A 2500 pound buffalo will probably be unable to do such, a 250 pound ape would be a snack.
They have to come up with interesting legend from time to time. It sells.
JimmyDavid,
I gotta say, it seems ya didnt read the acount very well...
The researcher stated that 4 came rushing out of the bushes... indicating they hunt in groups.. sorta the way chimps do... I would bet that 4 250 lb gorillas/whatever they are would not have a hard time taking down an isolated lion...
""We could hear them in the trees, about 20 feet away," she said. "My tracker made a sound of an injured duiker [antelope] and four came rushing through the brush towards me.
"If this had been a bluff charge, they would have been screaming to intimidate us. These guys were quiet. And they were huge. They were coming in for the kill. I was directly in front of them, and as soon as they saw my face, they stopped and disappeared.""
After all.. a pack of 100lb hyenas have been known to take down isolated lions..
And yer right.. they said its not a COMMON gorilla... noting the obvious differences in appearance is all... yer speculation seems like an attempt to troll on Artemis.
So pls point how how the reports / articles are SOOO full of errors... I guess Discovery, BBC, Daily Telegraph and New Scientist should hire you as they are obviously incompotent :D
Cruciform
10-11-04, 09:30 PM
Interesting. I haven't even read the article yet but the quotes sound a lot like a story published last year.
Large primates that were shadowing some biologists, except the people got the distinct impression that they were being "herded" the way chimps will direct prey into a trap.
And they never got a clear look at them.
Cruciform, yes yer right... makes me shudder.. imagine being shadowed and herded to the kill.
Anecdotal evidence about the unusual apes dates back to photos taken by European hunters in 1898, when the region was the Belgian Congo.
The trail was then picked up in 1996 by Karl Ammann, a Kenyan-based Swiss photographer, who was intrigued by local tales that the forests were inhabited by large ferocious apes that could kill lions.
pcw_phoenix
10-11-04, 09:49 PM
well when BBC said about the hybrid between gorillas and chimps..i doubt they'll be over 2 ft tall...could it be a hybrid between human and gorillas?!?! humans are tall and gorillas are huge?!?! :D..just a thought..
JimmyDavid
10-11-04, 10:18 PM
haha, nice one pheonix. Hey, wait a minute, Perhaps they were shooting "planet of the apes 2" on that location.;)
El_Gringo
10-12-04, 01:56 AM
YES! They are one step closer to finding bigfoot!
Well they figure that there are still giant sloths down in the amazon. We're talking 13 foot tall leviathans of the rain forest. In the documentary I watched they went around asking people in Vancouver about it, they replied 'I don't know why anyone would believe that.' Then they talked to a few Amazonian locals and they said 'I don't know why anyone wouldn't believe it.' They showed fossils of a few species of giant sloths and the stories the locals were talking about seemed 100% authentic: they shot at it but nothing happened/fossils show pieces of very hard cartalidge in the skin, like body armor....they smell rotting meat when they're around/fossils show their glands would excrete smells similar to rotting meat.....the footprints were banana shaped/fossils show that as they walk on the sides of their feet, it would leave banana shapes.
When you think that 99.9% of all the species that have lived on Earth throughout its history are extinct, and everything we know is a decimal percent of what has been around, who knows what could be out there, and what will be out there in the future.
God I love evolution!
-Brock
Scales Zoo
10-12-04, 09:55 AM
I remember something about this too.
There is a 1.5 year old story on it, in good ol national geographic
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0414_030314_strangeape.html
concept3
10-12-04, 05:39 PM
just to clear things up for jimmy david, an average male gorilla weighs 300-400 pounds and an average male lion weighs 350-400 pounds so the story of a lion killing ape is not that unbeleivable.
Artemis
10-12-04, 06:10 PM
Jimmy- Im not sure who it was, might have been you, who knows. But I am still willing to wager there is a lot more hiding in some of the remote places in the world left to discover.
No offense intended, seriously though ;)
Artemis
arkuden
10-12-04, 06:26 PM
a female chimpansee once got a bad mood and in an emotional outburst onehandedly pulled around 1100 verified lbs on a pulling strength measuring apparatus. <---- Found in the guiness book of world records.
The two qualities that make chimps and gorillas so powerful,is a denser bone and muscle structure. This is why chimps can't swim in deep water,they're so heavy they sink to the bottom. I've read that the strength of a gorilla doesn't come from having huge muscles, but muscles that are geared for raw strength. Like the difference between a farm tractor and a vehicle with the same size engine. That farm tractor won't do 80mph, but will pull an amazing amount of weight.
Story from my uncle who lives in ohio :
25 years ago or so in Zanesville, Ohio; a chimp got loose and got a hold of a man I knew. I talked to him later and he said he was amazed at the way the chimp was able to toss him around at will. He ended up getting chewed and busted up pretty badly. The guy was a big husky construction worker and stronger than average. He said he didn't have a chance. True story.
I remember a documentary where a zoologist said he estimates the strength of a large male gorilla at 5-6 times that of a male SHW Olympic weightlifter. He also claimed a male gorilla could realistically flip over a car with one hand. Not one of them gutted out WSM cars either!
How about Neanderthals?! Closely related to us but with bones twice as thick as ours to support muscles twice as thick as ours! Here's a link on the topic:
ape vs. lion? Think of the strength of both animals. Each are very very strong. hard to match against each other but its known that they each posess an almost unmatched physical strength. Look at other qualities. Apes are much or agile, flexible and considered more intelligent. The lions have speed for sure. Honestly i dont think a lion will beat an ape in most situations, i think it would also have a lot to do with the surroundings that this little match happens in lol.
JimmyDavid
10-13-04, 08:47 AM
People, how can i put this without offense? huh...saying an Ape can even come close to kill a Lion is "Inquirer stuff".
Forget about it. There's nothing to say about it, really. Listen to yourselves!
Concept3, The average weight of a male Lion is more like 600/650 lbs. In fact, Oakland farm zoo in Nova scotia has a male Lion at 807 lbs.
An Ape can kill a Lion?! What's next?...
JimmyDavid...
I guess yer the authority then ;) LOL
JimmyDavid
10-13-04, 09:33 AM
No, i'm just letting common sense talk through me. You guys hit the streets and ask 100 people "excuse me sir, who would win this fight: Ape or Lion" and Maybe 1 would go with Ape...the rest would laugh straight at your face.
Heck, i don't know, Weird stuff happens. Maybe an incredible strong ape (way above normal) could take down an old, sick Lion. All i'm saying is, under natural conditions the Lion is Africa's top predator and the Ape is only food for the him.
Actually the lioness are probably considered more the top predator in Africa. Single male lions shy away from hyenas. Even a group of bachelor lions are no match for a pack of hyenas. Lions are chickenshit with alot of animals, namely the cape buffalo and hyenas. Unless they're attacking in a pride with females they shy away from such animals. They tend to pick on the smaller cats like leopards and cheetahs. I've always wondered why the lion, of all animals, was considered the king of the jungle. :p
Yea JimmyDavid,
I guess u are the expert... how could I be so narrow minded ;) LOL LOLOL
I BET you have allot of experience working with Lions in the wilds of Africa, Dontcha? ;)
concept3
10-13-04, 09:57 AM
hey jimmy dont know where your gettin your lion facts from but I think you be the one reading the Inquirer LOL
www.angelfire.com/tx4/catlady/lionfacts.html
www.lionlmb.org/lion/lionfact.html
a 800 pound lion OK hahahaha
concept3
10-13-04, 10:48 AM
here I found some gorilla facts to
http://koko.org/about/facts.html
http://www.trillian.com/animals/gorilla.htm
http://www.gorilla.org/about/facts.html
so looking at the facts a male gorilla weighs 450-600 pounds and a lion weighs 350-400 Its all of a sudden not to unbeleivable a gorilla could kill a lion. LOL a 600 pound gorilla vs a 350 pound lion. Who would you put your money on because I would pick the gorilla.
Keep in mind that the gorillas would probably hunt in a group.. just like chimps do.. they isolate, then surround... just like the account from the researchers that had 4 of them charge at them...
JimmyDavid
10-13-04, 01:07 PM
Concept3, why would i make up a story about a 800 pound Lion? Visit www.guinnessworldrecords.com
I agree that the male lion can be sometimes shy and back away from inferior predators, such as hyenas and others, but my friends, if it actually comes to real physical confrontation, i pity the creature that meets those jaws.
Pound for pound hyenas have a higher jaw strength. :D Although lions do have longer canines and claws.
concept3
10-13-04, 01:27 PM
ok jimmy you proved me wrong but that is a freak of nature. No lion in wild would ever come close to that, look how fat that lion is it would die in the wild beacause it would be too slow and fat. And If you read what I wrote I said average male lion obviosly their will be extremes on both sides of the scale.
ps. I pitty the creature that has a couple 500 pound gorillas banging on its head with rocks and biting it with their 3" canine teeth.
arkuden
10-13-04, 02:00 PM
not only do most apes and chimps hunt in groups but as you may or may not read. SO DO LIONS
Good call Jimmy thats what i did.. ran up and down the street asking everyone their thoughts. Get real, you know nothing about half the people here and what they may or may not know about a specific topic. What if i told you that ive had a chance to work with chimps and apes at zoos before? That couldnt be true right? im just asking random people on the street.
Just becuase one lion weighs 800 pounds it doesnt represent all lions.
KrokadilyanGuy3
10-13-04, 02:45 PM
Thorugh this whole debate, I just wanna say.. I own this town. Zanesville, Ohio
Zane
When we settle this one, I'd like to discuss: who would win in a fight...polar bear or great white shark. ;)
rg
not only do most apes and chimps hunt in groups but as you may or may not read. SO DO LIONS
Although not all lions are found in groups. Old males wander alone sometimes and young bachelor lions form small groups (usually 2-3). Just more info to add to this convo. :D
Tim and Julie B
10-13-04, 03:03 PM
Really interesting debate. I hope it is a new species.
oh and the polar vs great white..... theres no doubt that the great white would win. Lets look at te facts a great white can swim far faster has gill and is 20+ feet long with tremendus(sp) jaw pressure. A polar bear may be able to hold its breath a while but it would have trouble evn puncturing the skin let alone kill the shark.
Matt
LOL.. When I posted this news.. I didnt even see this issue coming up :) Cant believe what this thread turned into ... LOL...
ya well evolution is inevitable(sp) lol
Originally posted by Matt.B
oh and the polar vs great white..... theres no doubt that the great white would win. Lets look at te facts a great white can swim far faster has gill and is 20+ feet long with tremendus(sp) jaw pressure. A polar bear may be able to hold its breath a while but it would have trouble evn puncturing the skin let alone kill the shark.
Matt
I agree in general, but the shark's range is temperate and tropical waters. Not sure how feisty he's going to be in the arctic ocean. Plus, I represent the polar bear, and my fighter wants to have the fight on an ice flow. ;) Alien vs Predator anyone? Oh wait...they did that didn't they?
rg
Cruciform
10-13-04, 06:12 PM
Hehe.
I found the comment about asking people on the street to be amusing.
Just for fun, someone go out on the street of a large city and ask the following question:
"How many children were killed and eaten by Boa Contrictors in the last decade?"
a) None
b) 23
c) 64
d) 127
I would bet that the answers would be all over the place.
Anyway, regarding lion vs. gorilla, I'm not an expert on either and have no idea what the end result would be. It might be a heck of a fight though.
If you watch how a lion finishes off it's prey, they usually bring the animal down by the neck or muzzle, then clamp down on the muzzle to suffocate the prey if it hasn't already bled out from neck injuries. I think the build and strength of a gorilla would make this a major endeavor for a lion, and one hunting on its own would most likely be starving or sick before attempting to prey on an adult.
concept3
10-13-04, 06:22 PM
I never said who would win I was just arguing the point a gorilla wouldnt be a 250 pound snack,
Brent Strande
10-13-04, 06:28 PM
Also hard to say, especially since it's not about a gorilla, but a new species which would be hard to describe its weight, etc... since it is NEW and hasn't been studied before!
JimmyDavid
10-13-04, 07:21 PM
The thing about asking in the streets was
(obviously) out of sarcasm. hehe.
I never thought my first comment would bring so much debate to this thread. After all i didn't even give an opinion, i only remembered a FACT, lions are indeed africa's top predator and the thought that an Ape could prey upon it, is somewhat laughable.
Moving on: Who believes there's a new species out there? (this was the original idea, remember?)
I dont believe there's a new species based on the sketchy evidence presented in those articles. I wont say it's not possible, but I think it's pretty unlikely.
rg
concept3
10-13-04, 09:48 PM
yeah I have my doubts too
sassmuffin
10-13-04, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Artemis
Just the other day someone was yakking in another thread about how there couldnt possibly be any undiscovered species left with all our technological glory. Touche' to that!
Yay giant lion eating apes!
Touché to that is right, hehe. I also beg to differ with the person who said that, because _apparently_ there is an estimated...."insert large number here" of undiscovered species left, which kind of makes you appreciate the absolute vastness of the world....
But this ape this really is something =)
PS: I read the last bit of your post as 'Yay giant apple eating lions!' .....Don't ask, haha...
Cruciform
10-14-04, 12:08 AM
Anyone ever read "Voyage of the Kon Tiki"?
They discovered a coelacanth when it ended up on the raft with them. And it had been "extinct" for millions of years.
Yep I've read about the coelcanth, right in southern Africa if I remember correctly? Quite a big fish too, kind of hard to miss. I was also watching this show on jellyfish one day, and they showed some video of a colony of 4 or 5 long crimson red and reddish-brown jelly fish, about 15-20 feet long and very bulky, that have only been seen that one time. I also saw a computer generated version of a giant squid, that was in theoretical adult size, and a human is basically the size of its pupil.
No doubt are there things we haven't discovered, from the 90% of the rain forests in South America to the canyons in the see that are a thousand times larger than the Grand Canyon. It's amazing.
Oh and last I heard, humans were the top predator in Africa ;) And I mean we DID come from apes, right? It's not so far fetched.
-------Edit
Something we're more familiar with:
Another thing is crested geckos, they were thought to be extinct for over a hundred years, then rediscovered in 1994. They're a pretty large gecko if you ask me and so prolific. There's thousands of them in captivity today from something that was thought to be extinct.
And also wasn't there a tribe of humans in Africa discovered in the early 90s, it had no idea of an outside world existing. I remember watching that on the news, was really cool. Another thing I'll never forget watching on the global news was in India when the Ganesh statues were drinking milk from spoons. That was in 1998, and THAT was cool!
-Brock
SpiderLord
11-21-04, 10:17 PM
ok here is my opinion..for one...lions arnt as intelligent as apes...apes can wield weapons..and they are VERY muscular...secondly i will state that no..giant squid are not that big...everywhere ive looked their eyes are the size of dinner plates not people...and for the third and final statement, i believe a lot of things are out there that we havnt discovered
SCReptiles
11-24-04, 12:14 AM
I have not worked with large primates hand to hand as of yet. I have worked with small primates and big cats. There is no doubt that an adult loin is a formable opponent for any animal, but big cats are not indestructible. They tend to lay on their backs as a defensive posture. If this ape had enough strength to hit the loin on the head, the skull would crush as it would be fixed against the ground and could not give with the blow. Attacking gorillas raise their hands in the air and come down. I can see a powerful enough ape killing a loin.
Second point, as anyone considered this could be a hybrid chimp/gorilla?
rattekonigin
11-24-04, 02:13 AM
I'm very skeptical about the story that this ape could kill a lion...mainly because it's been stated that the ape inhabits the congo (which is mainly dense jungle) and lions live out in the open on the savannah...so, how would these two animals ever meet, much less get into a brawl?
sneaky_boa
11-25-04, 10:36 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong (which I very well could be), but aren't most large non-human primated PRIMARILY vegetarian? Omnivorous, yes, but not to the point where killing large mammals for meat is required. Why would a primarily vegetarian species need to kill a lion for food? I've no doubt that it could.....but why would it want to?
Sneaky_boa,
If you look at chimps, they hunt in groups to take down other primates / animals for a meat source.. and they do it very deliberately...
So... who knows :)
I believe a large ape such as a gorilla could kill a lion. Sheer strength combined with intelligence combined with the ability to grasp combined with the ability to use tool and weapons if need be. Add to that the thick skin and fur that would protect the animal. Its not so far fetched at all if you ask me. Its true that the lion oes have weapons such as its claws and teeth but a gorilla could easily break a lions back, neck or ribs with deadly blows. Being able to grasp the lion in its arms and hands puts the gorilla at an advantage.
JAdkins2451
11-25-04, 12:09 PM
Or to settle this. The discovery channel has a show that the computer generate the strength of 2 animals. And then simulates the fight. 1 episode but a couger/mountian lion Vs. A brown bear. The bear won. If you compare the size of a mountian lion to the size of an african lion the should be pretty close. And the size of a brown bear to a gorilla the should come close to size and weight. now factor in the intelligence of the gorilla. Who do you think would win.
Also, include the fact that chimps hunt in groups... I really dont think a single isolated lion would have a chance against 3 giant apes...
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