Is it just me or are prices crashing on...

[BoidKeeper]

...normal CBB Balls and Colombians. It seems to me just last year maybe two at most CBB normal balls were $150 and Colombians were $200. Now this year I'm seeing CBB balls for as low as $80! That is lower than the WC garbage in the pet shops. And Colombians as low as $125 sometimes as low as $100! I don't think a snake that can get that big (relatively speaking) should be that cheap.
So what is up with that? Are we really producing that many of each in Canada that the market has become flooded to the point that it has out reached the demand?
Will the Colombian be the Corn of the Boa world? I'm sorry but I just can't see myself selling Colombians and Rosy Boas for the same price.
Cheers,
Trevor

[marisa]

"So what is up with that? Are we really producing that many of each in Canada that the market has become flooded to the point that it has out reached the demand?"

I think so. I have seen BCI for 80 bucks in classified ads. Not high qaulity ones. So people are breeding them just to breed them I guess, even if they are ugly specimens. And why would normal balls stay up there in price when no one likes them anymore? It's all about morphs morphs morphs. But I think balls are doing a bit better than BCI. For one it's a smaller snake and they are still in demand, and you are right, someone selling a snake that can get as big as a BCI for 100 or less, is scary.

I don't believe ANY snake should be under 100. Frankly, if you cannot afford THAT, get a pet rock. :)

Marisa

[BoidKeeper]

I don't believe ANY snake should be under 100. Frankly, if you cannot afford THAT, get a pet rock.
You said it! The only comment I've heard that was better than the was the time Jeff said, "When was the last time you saw a rescue Black Head?"
It's so true, the lower price animals are expendable apparently.
And another thing, just because you can breed it doesn't mean you should.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Edwin]

I think its because a lot of people are breeding them to get new morphs or nicer coloration, and these are just the normals that they do not need. It is the same thing with corns too.

[Kevin McRae]

My colombian was 90.00$, very good price but the breeder is very careful who he sells his snakes too.He turns down multiple people.....

I have seen lots of cbb baby ball pythons in pet shops for around 70.00$, but there much better quality from breeders...

[Joe]

sell the snakes for what you feel they are worth... if it means holding onto an animal for a year to get it then do it... IMO, thats the best way, in the end it will sell...my 2 cents!

[Stockwell]

Trev, you're lucky at that price!! LOL
I got out of breeding Balls because I couldn't even get 75 for them in the 80's, and that was when I was the only producer and before there were $6 Pit hatched Togo balls.(we call them CH now)
I think it's only a matter of time before everything gets cheaper as more and more people are captive producing and eventually the supply will meet and exceed demand.
The Togo CH balls,are still driving prices down on CB none morph stuff and if pet stores can get them for 8 to 10 bucks, they won't be buying CB's from breeders
I sold all my Regius in 91 and the guy that bought them, produced them and got $35 for babies, and I remember getting $40 for Leopard geckos that same year.
Now Regius still hadn't caught on back then and the stigma of them "not eating" took a decade to overcome. The big thing holding the price of of female Regius up now are people wanting them for morph production, especially for pastels
About boas... Boas used to be 100 bucks to 150.
I had boas in the early 80's and never paid more then 150 for them.
In the US now, Dumerils are sometimes sold for less than normal columbian boas, and I've heard reports of Dums for 75 and columbians for 100.
Actually I think logically Rosy boas should cost much more than boa constictors, because they only have 4 babies, less than Ball Pythons, and the low rate of production is what is holding their prices up.

[AtlanticReptile]

you will definetly get a higher quality animal from a breeder and 99.9% of the time will know a lot more about the animal than anyone at a pet store ever will. As far as columbians and balls being under priced i totally agree with Trevor and Marisa they should not be sold for under 100 dollars, they are too nice of an animal and are worth way more than what some are sold for. Also selling columbians for under 100 dollars gives younger and more inexperienced keepers a chance to purchase them. Someone who may not be responsible enough to keep a large snake like a columbian may do somthing stupid, thus giving some people who don't understand snakes as much, more of a reason to dislike them and give them more of a bad name than they already have. Just think of a kid that is 14 purchasing a burmese python for 50 dollars (which is approx the average price for a burm now) that can get 16 feet and larger, chances are it will be more to show off the snake than to care for it responsibly. Anyway im not trying to say what they should be sold for, just somthing to think about.

Nick
Atlantic Reptiles

[Gary D.]

Sadly The market for Common boas has crashed hard. I fully agree that these animals should not be sold for under $100. And not just to protect the market, but as you point out to make them less disposable as well. At the last TARAS show there were a lot of B.c.i. and start price on Saturday morning was as low as $80.00. I have since stopped breeding my B.c.i. because I saw the market getting bad a couple of years ago out here. Last spring was my last litter of Central Americans too. Sadly There are so many people just pounding them out that really nice ones don't sell for much more than plain-jane ones, as such Breeders aren't going to invest reasonable money for outstanding animals, unless it's a really nice pastel or a salmon, because they can't sell the offspring for any more.

I would wholesale my boas for that a few years ago. In my opinion if you want to dump them at wholesale prices , sell them to the pet shops or wholesalers. Public can buy them from the pet store for $200 or the breeder for $150. Boas become far less disposable, and the breeders do better (even those who want to flog them). Frankly I don't understand that if you had 35 babies you wanted to dump for next to nothing, why you would want the headache of trying to sell them individually (unless even the wholesalers don't want them).

GD

[hooter]

I have seen CBB Ball Pythons on kingsnake for $15 and corns as low as $8 a peice. One day just about all snakes will be around $10-$20 and the market will be worth nothing anymore.

This is why so many people work with color and pattern morphs to acount for the loss of money and also for the pasion of working with something new.

[Stockwell]

hooter, it probably wont be quite that bad, as once prices get too low, breeders stop producing and drop their supply from the market.
This then starts the cycle over again. Sometimes it will find an equalibrium, other times, it will just continue to be cyclical, as there is always someone new, trying to get market share, hungry for a buck that will undercut everyone else..
It's the way a free economy works.. It sucks if you're a breeder that assumed prices would hold, but can be great if you're in acqusition mode, and have been waiting for prices to drop,and find animals in your price range there weren't previously.

[Invictus]

I have every intention in the world to breed Colombians this year, but I am only breeding the BEST stock in my collection. I'm talking high red in the tails, wicked pink sides, light coloration, etc... and I will NOT sell them for less than $100, even for the less pretty ones. I think the market crashing is going to put the onus on breeders to have only the best stock available. If you're cranking out the same thing everyone else is, make sure yours is far better. That's what will keep the market at around $100-$125. If someone says "Why are yours more expensive than this guy's", the answer will be "Well, look at mine, and you tell me why they are more expensive."

[latazyo]

the poor attitude that normals are "ugly" is what is causing their prices to go down

[Jeff_Favelle]

I've never seen people able to sell CBB boas (Bci) for more than $100-$125. So I wouldn't say the prices are crashing. They have been bred for a very very very LONG time and they have LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of babies when they do breed, so I would say in the grand scheme of things, they have held their price very very well. Don't you think?

I would say that they are like Rainbows. They reached their threshold. I see the same price as I did 5 years ago, so I don't see the price difference that you do.

As for Ball Pythons, when I had my first clutch in 1995, I kept all the females and sold the males to pet stores in Vancouver for $50 each. This year, I sold all the females for $150 and the males for $90-100 each. Hardly a price crash, LOL!

[Jeff_Favelle]

I have seen CBB Ball Pythons on kingsnake for $15 and corns as low as $8 a peice.

Yeah, those Ball Pythons are NOT captive bred.

One day just about all snakes will be around $10-$20 and the market will be worth nothing anymore.


Yeah, hardly. That's what everyone said when Leo Geckos crashed and became $10 each. That was 6 years ago. Does the market look like its crashed? From my position, the market looks BETTER and BETTER every year. But then again, I think you have to actually be selling snakes to have any sort of view on the market. The classifieds can only tell you so much.

Again, how can the boa market seemed to have crashed when the prices are the same as 5 (or even longer) years ago? And how can the Ball market be perceived as crashing when the prices are HIGHER than 10 years ago? I don't get the connection.

[ydnic]

Thats why the goverment shouldnt be so worried about regulating what people can`t have and start worring about what they do have. They should make laws on pricing and their should be licencing. Just anyone shouldn`t be able to run out and grab a BP because it is "neat". There should be licence a person has to purchase to buy the animal in the first place and then after there should also be licencing on breeding.
Just for example there should be a special permit to purchase a female and second special permit to own both - something along those lines - with heavy fines to follow if you don`t

There are so many ppl out there producing and mass producing - then 'opps, how am i gonna sell these things...okay i`m at a show whats everyone else got theirs marked for - i`m undercutting by $20.00 and i`ll sell to any jack@ss that pulls out their wallet.'

Thats how this all started..

[Paleosuchus]

The average price for a cbb ball python is around 25-30 here. Guess up north its much more, but here it isnt even worth producing in most peoples eyes.

[CamHanna]

Originally posted by Todd (in the classifieds)
Het alb,Burmese hatchlings=$50.ooeach
Stuff like this is a little scary but inflating the prices will attract more breeders, further flood the market and drive prices even lower.

[nita]

CH babies here are around $80, you can get a better deal though if you buy quantity. I haven't seen CBB balls for under $100.00 though, usually between $125 - $200 for females and $125 - $150 for males.

Last spring my brother sold out his leo's for $40.00 a piece with no problem so I wouldn't say that is so bad either.

[arkuden]

i got my norm. CBB BP in may of 04 and i got him for about 40 bucks and about 50 shipping. I do not think that normals are ugly in anyway. It seems like prices are this way because most people are just in it to make the money and everyone may see it as a quick cash opportunity (not litterally i know breeding snakes takes time) but you couldnt buy my normal from my for anything. Sure it would be cool to have a snow, albino, platinum, piebald or many others but if you look at it the way i do; theres no one in the world that has a snake like mine. My normal is still totally unique. Maybe not to any of you but you wont ever find an identical looking or acting one out there. In terms of pricing i do not think i would have been here today if i didnt get a great deal on my BP, becuase for someone my age spending 500+ on a snake for the first time seemed quite outrageous, especially for just wanting to have a good animal to take care of. But that fact that i got one for such a great price will make me more willing to buy in the future and consider a higher priced one based on my experiences with my current BP. So its probably a good thing that you can get normals at a great price becuase when you give someone a nice relatively low cost way into the herp industry they will realize the joys of these amazing animals and not be so hesitant to make purchases on higher priced snakes.

just my 2 cents


Paul

[Tim and Julie B]

Bottom line. If you don't want to drop the market keep your prices up. When everyone blows theirs out for next to nothing during the summer you can charge double at Christmas time when no one else has them. Sell them for what you think they are worth not what some importer is dictating. If I put a lot of time into something then I want something back. TB

[hooter]

Jeff ,

The Balls were CB but the corns I talked about were non feeders so it figures lol. If you asked me to prove they were CB I couldnt but could you prove they werent? ;)

As for the Ball market being better, this is common sense really. Over time more morphs come along thus the prices grow higher. This thread is about normals in general so I have to agree that prices are crashing and will only continue to crash.

I agree with Invictus that breeders will be forced to come out with only the best to gain some profit. Standards are higher with any snake these days because over time new morphs are created and normals become less than standard for many people.

[Invictus]

I was just looking at the ads on the "other forum", and let me tell ya... I'm glad the Canadian market for corns isn't doing what it's doing in the US... we're talking $10 for normals, even $25 for motleys and such.... at least up here, $35-$40 for a normal corn isn't considered obscene. So, I'm happy as a clam about that, given that corns are the bulk of my breeding projects. :) So the same can be said about boas... we should be thankful even at $100 per animal, given that they go for about $40 in the states.

[reptiguy420]

i dont really know about the exchange rate and how much everything costs in canadien.I live in Michigan and ive been to herp shows where ball pythons go for as low as 15 dollars american and ive seen boa constrictors for as low as 30 on some classifieds throughout the internet.Its just getting rediculous in my opinion.

[V.hb]

Far to many people mass produce then don't want to deal with babies and sell them as quick as possible for whatever they will get, ruining the market.

Look at bearded dragons, Ackies etc. Nobody buys them. Jeez, I phone stores and they wont even buy beardies for anymore than 10-15$ a piece!! Give me a break! Most people won't pay 20-25 in a private sale for a beardie, and if they do its after they ask what morph it is, expecting to get something super rare for nothing.

[Invictus]

reptiguy420 - Right now, the Canadian dollar is almost 80 cents to the American dollar... so with currency fees and such, we'll pay about $1.25 for each American dollar. Not too bad right now.

[lostwithin]

Hi, it is a shame that prices of the more common are so low. I completely agree that they have become much to cheap. But I find it quite scary that burms are so cheap, they sell for 50 bucks, it is scary too think that any kid with 50 bucks, can pick up a soon too be giant. Personally I don’t understand why breeders sell their animals so cheaply. I asked the local pet store what they would sell me an albino burm for, they told me it would be between 6 and 8 hundred. I know beardies are being sold there for around 150, and balls are 150. So why should breeders sell there personal animals so low. The big pet stores are selling trash animals at higher prices. And they must be moving these animals, now I look at those prices and think, that’s outrageous because I know I can get a burm for 50, but at the same time I know that no kid is walking out of there with a 50 dollar burm. Unfortunately the only way too change it is too sell animals for more then everyone else and everybody including myself is looking for the best deals.

Devon

[D J N]

Me I would never pay $200 for a normal colombian B.c.i not unless it was an exceptionally nice one. As for why hte price has dropped it's probably because there are so many available now.

[Cruciform]

lostwithin: pet stores are all about huge markups and uninformed buyers, that's why they sell for so much.

And with storefronts, people just walk in off the street.

Breeders sell for the price that meets demand. If they could get 800 for a burm they would, but they're market is either a) wholesalers would won't pay that kind of money, or b) people who find the ads in forums or magazines and are at least somewhat informed about the market.

It's not much different from cattle farmers. Look at how the beef distributors rake in all that cash while the people that do all the work sell at a loss.

[leoncurrie]

I think it;s the whole reptile industry and how it has changed over the past few years.
When I first got into reptiles 10 plus year ago, the hobby was just that... a hobby. Whe you bought a reptile then.. you didn't care how much it cost because you enjoyed it's natural beauty. You could sit and look at it for hours in pure enjoyment. Today's reptile market is something like this...
1. Buy reptile for as little as possible
2. Shove reptile in rubbermaid ... out of mind out of site.
3. Get reptile ready for breeding as fast as possible.
4. Breed reptiles
5. Sell as offspring as fast as possible
6. Get reptiles to breeding weight again for new season
7. Buy more rubbermaids to prepare for more breeding projects

[BoidKeeper]

Sounds like a good business plan to me Leon. And here I thought you had become frustrated with the state of things. Sounds to me like you've got your thumb on the pulse of the industry.lol
Cheers,
Trevor

[MouseKilla]

Well here we go again.

I believe the original question that started this thread asked IF prices were in fact falling. That question has since been confused with argument about whose fault it is that some prices have fallen (this obviously assumes that they ARE lower) and, even further off topic, the argument that lower prices will put snakes in the hands of bad owners.

As for the original question, I would say that I have not personally noticed any real movement in the average market price of lower end animals, I don't know about specific morphs or species. These prices will tend to oscillate over time as Stockwell described as people get into and out of breeding certain animals. As the prices get low enough to let some people into the game others move on to more gainful projects. Prices will go up and down with the supply in the market.

This brings me to the idea that some people seem to have about breeders keeping their prices high. There are different reasons people say they want breeders to simply charge more but it's a silly idea that shows a lack of understanding about a free market.

If 1000 normal BPs are produced in Canada it is quite possible that only 800 can be sold at $125 each, maybe 900 could sell at $100, the remaining 100 snakes would simply have to go for less due to the cost of keeping them until they are sold. I obviously picked those numbers arbitrarily but the point remains that price is determined by SUPPLY and DEMAND not by the whim of a breeder.

As for kids with burms, that is more of a question of breeder's ethics than it is a question of pricing, not to mention a parenting question above all. lol! Who here could imagine convincing their parents at 14 that you are wealthy and responsible enough to care for a 15 ft snake? I was lucky to get away with a garter snake at that age. lol!

[Corey Woods]

The price on normal balls and boas, for the most part, isn't controlled by the breeders........but by the exporters. I believe the export quota last year for CH/WC balls was in around the 250,000-300,000 mark with 90% of them comming into North America. I'd say about 80% of them make it to the pet store but only about 20-50% of those actually live to see their first birthday. Pet stores are able to purchase WC balls (in the USA) for $5-15 each and with Canadian petstores being able to purchase them for $25-40 each. So, if you have a petstore buying 500 CH balls for $25 each and reselling for $100 that doesn't give the private breeder producing 10-50 normals in his basement much room for markup. If the export quota on balls was dropped to 20,000 a year the prive of normal balls would probably hover around $300-500 each since the supply was low and demand was high. Private breeders would then have more control of the market.........but most breeders don't even try and compete with WC balls as their are just so many comming into North America.

As for the licensing idea posted earlier.........that just goes to show you the ignorance of some people who don't know how the markets really work.

Corey

[Invictus]

The licensing has nothing to do with the markets Corey. Alberta, for instance, just banned giant snakes - they didn't even give thought to the permit system. I don't think ALL snakes should require permits, that would be silly. But hots and giants, maybe even boa constrictors, SHOULD be on a permit basis in my opinion. Since you have to be 18+ to get a permit, this would stop a lot of kids from getting snakes that there is NO WAY they can take care of, but would allow responsible keepers with a genuine love of giant pythons or hots or whatever the case is, to have them. Just my $0.02

[MouseKilla]

Corey,

That is an interesting insight about the exporters, it sounds like they are a major source of downward pressure on market prices. Even if most breeders don't try to compete with the price of imported animals there is no question that the additional supply drives the price of CB animals down. I don't think most people realize just how much imported stock is coming in, if they did maybe less fingers would be pointed and the alleged low-balling basement breeders that really don't produce in sufficient numbers to drive prices down significantly.

The importing of animals that are being bred in the country benefits no one but the export/import companies and the pet stores. The first-time snake owner gets inferior stock that is often either not eating, sick or parasitized and the domestic breeder (and his far superior stock) is cut out of the picture.

I don't know what branch of government controls the importation of animals for the pet trade but maybe Canadian breeders need to jointly lobby to have the importation of animal species that are domestically bred stopped or more strictly limited. I know cattle and other livestock producers lobby to protect their industry so I don't see why it can't be done for the snake industry.

[Gary D.]

Sorry Ken I disagree. In fact no reptiles are "banned" in Alberta, just restricted, meaning permits are required for giants, venomous, indiginous,etc. The catch is that They will not issue any new permits. Now you make permits required for boas and whammo, you can't legally own them either for just the same reason. F&W are too under manned and under funded to even considder issuing permits for the cost and red tape it creates. BAAAAAAAAAAAD idea.

GD

[Invictus]

My point is Gary, it shouldn't be that way. It shouldn't be impossible to get a permit. What if (and this is completely hypothetical here), you were able to go into F&W office, apply for a permit, which involved an interview with a qualified CO who would make sure you knew what the hell you were doing, were over 18, and were able to prove that you have the means AND knowledge to take care of said animal. Wouldn't that defer the "throw away" market, while at the same time protecting the rights of responsible owners? As soon as you throw catches like "you require a permit, but we won't issue them for any reason", that's a ban, I'm sorry. And a ban of any kind, be it on reptiles, smokers, or whatever, is an infringement of rights. At least give people the right to prove they deserve that right. :D

Man, did this get off topic......

[Gary D.]

perhaps you missed the reason why permits are unavailable. Lack of man power and funding. As such they deal with a list of priorities. Conservation enforcement and renewable resource management (protecting and managing out local wildlife) = primary importance.

Issuing paperwork so as not to opress hobbyest's "rights" to keep exotics animals and keeping said species out of shelters and rescues = not even on the same planet.

[Stockwell]

Many of these concepts and arguments I have heard over and over many times through the years... and we tend to forget how small a minortiy we really are and as such, there is very little political will to cater to us in any way shape or form... So whenever I hear talk of wanting goverment involvement in the hobby, it just makes me cringe.
The entire problem with the concept of permits, and having government control on either licensing or even importation of certain species is that, all of that costs money and requires qualified staff to implement any system, and there aren't enough parties involved in such minority activities as ours, to self generate the revenue required to make it happen..

Politicians would be burned at the stake for pissing away taxpayers money to implement such frivolous things as snake licensing for what is considered a minority weirdo fringe group.

There is likely just as many people that would like to be licensed to produce their own fireworks and still their own spirits.

The danger in even courting any government involvement of a regulatory nature in our hobby, is that it has the potential to backfire and shoot us in the foot, by simply making our pressence known..
It's far easier and cheaper for the government to ban certain practices if they detect our self flown "red flag" rather than have to pay for the complexities of regulation. Canada still doesn't really have fish and wildlife inspectors like the US does, so if there isn't enough money to even enable a broad service like that, we're likely light years away from specific conformity type licenensing arrangements for specific herp species.
Our numbers would have to be dramactically increased to have any political pull, and that is really unlikely in our lifetimes especially with Canada having such a diverse cultural demographic with a growing percentage coming from serpent fearing countries.

Gary, I'm curious.?? why are no more licenses being granted??
I suspect, it all costs too much and there is nobody qualified to administer the program, right ?? It's also a huge liability for goverments. I'm just assuming here... Do you know exactly why?

[beth wallbank]

Amen Roy. What the gov't don't know, don't hurt US. Keep the higher uppers outta our hair and outta our hobby. The less we stir with them, the less they will red tape us. Plain and simple.

[MouseKilla]

I agree that the government has an easier time banning and outlawing things than they have with making reasonable rules. I also agree that as a group our political power is next to nil (if not in negative numbers) but in the case of limiting or outlawing imports I think matters are a whole lot less complicated. Fear and ignorance of snakes is an advantage when you are trying to impede them from coming over the border, isn't it? There must be some regulation on importing snakes, how hard could it be to have the rules tightened?

[Corey Woods]

Ken,

The original poster about the "ban" wasn't talking about large constrictors. He was talking about government regulations to make sure people didn't "Crash" the market. Bascially he was saying that you'd need a permit to own male and a different one for females.........and penalties if you bred them without a permit. How does this relate to keeping large constrictors in alberta? If you ask me their are too many red necks keeping large "dangerous" reptiles (including but not limited to pythons over 10 feet, venomous snakes and all crocs, caimen and alligators). When I was breeding burmese I had more people calling me bascially saying "I want a big snake for my first pet" and they could hardly put a sentence together than I had legitimately dedicated herpers.

Corey

[Gary D.]

It's pretty much as you said Roy.

There is also the underlying feeling that this entire facet should be under the jurisdiction of Municipal animal services not F&W.

Now I am not in any way connected to F&W and this is really only my impression from what I know and what I have heard. But it makes perfect sense.

Originally posted by Corey Woods
Bascially he was saying that you'd need a permit to own male and a different one for females.........and penalties if you bred them without a permit.


There should be a program like that for humans, let alone reptiles. And that might be easier to get funding for too.

[v2r]

i think we as hobbyists/breeders should educate more on the pros/cons of import vs captive bred to the masses. push captive more and really stress the negatives of imports. something is only worth what someone will pay for it! we as customers are responsible for the prices dropping. how many of us buy something without comparing prices? if all of us could make captive animals a higher status or something the general public cooses over imports that would help alot. real life education on the pitfalls of alot of imports i think would benefit us and the animals both.


thanks
vaughn

[Jeff_Favelle]

Since you have to be 18+ to get a permit, this would stop a lot of kids from getting snakes that there is NO WAY they can take care of, but would allow responsible keepers with a genuine love of giant pythons or hots or whatever the case is, to have them. Just my $0.02


I'm of the opinion that age is a really really bad measuring stick. I know some people who are 50 and shouldn't own a garter snake, yet I know 12 year old "budding naturalists" that would do GREAT with a boa or other large-ish constrictor. The age thing sucks. I knew more about snakes when I was 5 than 99.99% of the people in my immediate surroundings today.

[MouseKilla]

What the hell are we talking about here? lol! We've gone off the rails.

[bryan139]

I agree. The only problem I see is in the future with the morph craze. Not that it's bad, but as more and more "designer" morphs become available the price is going to go down to stay competitive. This could cause a drop in price on commons if they become harder to move because morphs are more easily obtainable. When we start seeing albino balls next to normals in the pet store Id like to see what the price looks like then.

[LTownsend]

Back to the original question......I sold all of my CBB balls this year to a pet store for the price I wanted....no problem, money in hand. Bottom line is.....don't be in such a rush to be the first one to produce and have animals available for sale before everyone else.....shelf your animals if you have to; they don't cost much to keep short-term, and wait until everyone else is done producing and selling, then you will get your asking price year after year as long as you keep it reasonable.

[beanersmysav]

Originally posted by latazyo
the poor attitude that normals are "ugly" is what is causing their prices to go down

This is disgustingly true! I think normals are that much more special as they are the original to the species in most cases. Without them there would be no differant color morphs. That's why I'm breeding normal leo's as well as others but people are surprised as to what colors normals are throwing off constantly. I just started breeding and I'm not doing it to make a buck, when I acctually decide to sell even my normals will have a top dollar value, I don't plan on whole saling them just to move them. If they don't move for what I ask I'll keep them for my own collection, soon enough I'll have plenty room to keep all my animals weither they sell or not.

Honestly I wouldn't mind keeping them all, I just want to breed for the experience of breeding, I don't think there's anything wrong with that myself, others do. So be it.

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
I'm of the opinion that age is a really really bad measuring stick. I know some people who are 50 and shouldn't own a garter snake, yet I know 12 year old "budding naturalists" that would do GREAT with a boa or other large-ish constrictor. The age thing sucks. I knew more about snakes when I was 5 than 99.99% of the people in my immediate surroundings today.

Agree'd this is just another thing adults use to put down kids. I am old enough to get a permit if the age is 18 or 19, but I've seen this type of descrimination towards kids my whole life. What seperates an adult from a kid? Kids think they know everything, Adults Know they Know everything. Just my oppinion of course. I started in the hobby around 14 and owned a monitor for the first pet who is still alive and well so it goes to show you kids aren't totally helpless. However I do agree alot of kids are irresponsible my brother is a good example. But still that's not all kids.