View Full Version : What do you think...?
Denise101
10-07-04, 01:55 PM
Ok so i really want to get into the reptile business, i was thinking about buying some high end ball python morphs or any other reptiles that are in high demand(And suggestions?) But the thing is i got no money. So i was thing about taking out a lone, do you think this would be a good or bad idea?
bighillreptiles
10-07-04, 01:57 PM
bad .Dont go into reptiles to make money you will go broke very few make a living off of it my two cents worth
snakers55
10-07-04, 02:03 PM
Yeah, I strongly dislike people that are in the hobby only to make money... Keep animals because you have a genuine interest in them. That's my opinion.
Denise101
10-07-04, 02:11 PM
no im not in it for the money :p . It just if i do breed them i want homes for the babies.. get what im trying to say?
And i defantly do love reptiles other wise i woundent have over 30 all ready! I spend more money on my pet then i do on myeslf!
Vengeance
10-07-04, 02:15 PM
There is nothing wrong with trying to have the hobby pay for itself. That is what really keeps the herp industry going, the people who are interstead in breeding and selling their animals. The people buying those high end morps of Ball pythons, Boas, Leos, and any high end morph is most usually a breeder. It's a great big circle. Breeder finds a new morph, proves it out, sells it to other breeders, takes the money he made from selling the animal and turns around and invests into the industry by buying something else. It works out great and really strengthens the community.
But taking out a loan may not be the best of ideas. Most likely you are going to be picking up a hatchling, and then you have to wait till they hit sexual maturity. So you may have to carry that loan for a long time, my suggestion is start small and build from it. I recently got my first breeding trio of 100% het Albino ball pythons. I'll start by breeding those, sell off the offspring, then move up to the next morph, hopefully piebald. But that is years down the line, but I can wait :)
silent_truth
10-07-04, 02:17 PM
Paul is right, that it is very difficult to make a profit in the business of selling reptiles. What I think snakers55 meant is that first one should have a love of keeping and enjoying reptiles for what they are and only then should they think about incorporating an economic aspect. I've seen many of your posts Denise and you seem like a very genuine and ambitious person which is awesome and don't let anyone tell you what you should or shouldn't do if it concerns your future. If that is really your dream then I say take whatever steps needed to make it happen. There's a lot to consider before deciding whether you want to venture into the business side of reptiles (ie. whether you want to privately breed them or possibly own your own specialty store). However, getting a loan is difficult enough these days, but I'd think it would be easier to get one if one had an actual retail store as opposed to operating out of their home. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong). Okay, I've rambled long enough. I just wanted to make sure that the reptile keeping community doesn't discourage every new entrepreneur out there from starting a business, otherwise the future of the hobby may be limited instead of growing to its potential.
Best of luck with any decisions that you make!
-Adam
VI Reptiles
10-07-04, 02:23 PM
If you wanna start with no money, start low like I am! Im getting a 100% het for albino male and 4 normal females. What im gonna do is take all the female babies I get from the breeding then breed them back to the dad 2 years after that and you could get albinos! You can do that with any other morph as well as long as its 100% het!
Tim_Cranwill
10-07-04, 02:24 PM
Buy a trio and see how that goes for the first while. Then pick up a few adult pairs here and there and you'll fnd out in a hurry if this "business" is for you. It can be an expensive venture though and if you have "no money", it's best to start small.
It never hurts to try though, right?
Since you have a male already I would just get a couple of normal females and raise them up. Then try and breed them and if sucessful, sell off the babies. You'll get a taste for what it will be like, then decide if you really want to borrow money to get into the biz. I personally wouldn't suggest you borrow money to buy morphs especially with no BP breeding experience.
BoAddict
10-07-04, 02:43 PM
most loan places will not give loans for livestock
but will for the business operations
Denise101
10-07-04, 02:43 PM
Ok start of small, got ya :) I was planning on getting a 100% het albino ball male of Dan in Calgary but i cant find any ball females. What other pthyon would be good to start off breeding?
PS. Thanks for the lovley comment Adam you nearly made me cry, no really! :( :)
Darren179
10-07-04, 02:43 PM
if you want to breed ball pythons try breeding regulars instead of morphs. It will be cheeper for you and less dissapointing if you loose ur first batch of eggs.
Originally posted by Darren179
if you want to breed ball pythons try breeding regulars instead of morphs. It will be cheeper for you and less dissapointing if you loose ur first batch of eggs.
I wouldn't recommend that. You don't have a hope of making any $$ off that, and the babies can be difficult to get rid of. Regular Ball Pythons are a dime a dozen these days.
Ever considered womas? Market is pretty stable and from what I hear they're relatively easy to keep and breed.
Siretsap
10-07-04, 05:18 PM
Should think of gettign a co-dominant morph. Pastel for example, you just need one male that is pastel and you can breed him to many females and get a good number of pastels hatch.
Of course you can go for spider morph, but $$$ and since you don't have that much money, a pastel is in a pretty good range price, (from 800 to 1700$ depending on the beauty of it and the sex of it).
downfall to the pastel morph, I am guessing in 2 to 3 years, it will be worth no more than 400$. But still, you sell of the pastel babies you got and you get back in your money.
Tim_Cranwill
10-07-04, 05:32 PM
Market schmarket! Get whatever animals you can afford that YOU want to breed and breed them. THAT'S the way to start. Don't think about money or sales or ANYTHING except keeping the animals. The rest will work its self out over time.
That's MY 45 cents... ;)
bighillreptiles
10-07-04, 06:32 PM
you are right Tim. Good post and no slamming, cool
damzookeeper
10-07-04, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
Market schmarket! Get whatever animals you can afford that YOU want to breed and breed them. THAT'S the way to start. Don't think about money or sales or ANYTHING except keeping the animals. The rest will work its self out over time.
That's MY 45 cents... ;)
That is so true! If you get what you like best and breed that you will be happy with the outcome and enjoy the hobby much longer.
Jeff_Favelle
10-08-04, 12:30 AM
You don't have a hope of making any $$ off that, and the babies can be difficult to get rid of. Regular Ball Pythons are a dime a dozen these days.
Hmmm...must be a different market out there (even though 90% of my sales are Ontario), because I cannot keep up with the demand for normal female Ball Pythons this year (or last year). I could have sold 200-300 this year at $150 each. Easily. People are stocking up on normal females like its going out of style. Normals males? Yeah hard to sell. They are pets, and that's it. But to say that you can't make money from normals is wrong. I could sell normal female babies all day long.
Jeff_Favelle
10-08-04, 12:37 AM
downfall to the pastel morph, I am guessing in 2 to 3 years, it will be worth no more than 400$. But still, you sell of the pastel babies you got and you get back in your money.
And what if it does drop to $400? You will STILL make money. And LOTS of it. If you have two breeding males by then and 25 females (normals; not EVEN including the female Pastels you held back) and you are on your game and you get 16 of those females to give 6 eggs each. That's 96 Ball Pythons, 48 of which should be Pastel. So if they are $400 each that's $19,200!!! Add in the normals wholesaled out and you're up over $22,000!!! just for TWO measily racks of Ball Pythons. Yeah, sooooo hard to make money. That's what the whole Ball Market is. A GIANT money-making machine. Get in or stay on the sidelines. I'm in just to fund my other snake habits (addictions?), but there's a handful of people making SERIOUS money at it. But even if you do it half-a$$ed and just make the $22,000, and say your regular job nets you $35,000 (average), all of a sudden, you are making $57,000 income and that's above the average in Canada. Not bad for two measily racks of snakes and maybe 1/2-1 hour per day of work.
LOL!
I wouldn't set up a breeding business on a loan, especially if you have no experience. What if your animals dont produce for a couple years? What if you lose your male breeder? Well...at least you'll still have your loan. Too much risk for me.
rg
Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Normals males? Yeah hard to sell. They are pets, and that's it. But to say that you can't make money from normals is wrong. I could sell normal female babies all day long.
LOL do you have magic bps that pump out sex-specific eggs? :p Most people are interested in sub/adult females over babies as well. I know it took me months to sell my female, as well as I've seen the same hatchling females over and over in the classifieds. Males are being given away for free, or offered for peanuts, in the classifieds. Other kinds of snakes do not have problems being sold 'as pets', since there isn't an absolute flood of them out there. You walk in to expos and all it is is balls, leos, and beardies from wall to wall, with a few odds and ends interspersed.
I agree Linds. It's too bad that some breeders are flooding the market with certain herps trying to make the big bucks. Let other people breed the species and help pay for their addiction. I don't even want to know how many carpet pythons have been introduced to the market in the last few years.
Mike
Originally posted by Linds
LOL do you have magic bps that pump out sex-specific eggs? :p Most people are interested in sub/adult females over babies as well. I know it took me months to sell my female, as well as I've seen the same hatchling females over and over in the classifieds. Males are being given away for free, or offered for peanuts, in the classifieds. Other kinds of snakes do not have problems being sold 'as pets', since there isn't an absolute flood of them out there. You walk in to expos and all it is is balls, leos, and beardies from wall to wall, with a few odds and ends interspersed.
Funny, at the last TARAS show all of my normal males sold first and I had a few people who were looking at them earlier who asked if I had any left at home. I don't expect to sell any normal males over the internet, in the future I'll just save them for shows. Still my 8 at $80 pays for all of my rats for the year.
Jeff_Favelle
10-08-04, 10:53 AM
Most people are interested in sub/adult females over babies as well.
For 90% of the people that bought a Pastel or whatever from me, they all would pretty much say, "hey, I'll grab 2 or 5 normal females while I'm at it". A LOT of people don't like to buy adult animals. They like to raise them from the very beginning so they are raised properly and there's no surprises. I'm one of those people.
I'm not sure why some people have trouble selling female babies. I'm just relaying my experience. Since 1995, I have not had ANY trouble selling ALL my female normals within 2-3 months of them hatching.
Jeff_Favelle
10-08-04, 11:02 AM
I don't even want to know how many carpet pythons have been introduced to the market in the last few years.
Who in CANADA came even close to flooding the market in Carpets? Nobody in my opinion.
gonesnakee
10-08-04, 12:26 PM
In reguards to Carpets IE: Jungles there were this season 2003 males being offered for $100 each & females for $140 thats yearlings folks, they were just plain janes but they were available at those low prices. So the market goes up & down but a lot has to do with the individual marketing the animals as well. Some people refuse to budge on prices until they are overrun with the previous years offspring with more hatching. Maybe they should have considered a reduction or some wholesaling prior to the next season? In reguards to BPs it pleases me to see so much Captive Bred available, it keeps wholesalers from bringing in farmed & WC crap & makes them support the local market instead & offers the public a better quality specimen(s).
In answer to the orginal post I'd suggest not running wanted ads for animals that you have no means of which to obtain. Breeders soon get tired of replying to wanted ads never to be responded back to or to find out the person inquiring isn't even seriously considering a purchase at that point, but is just "Window Shopping" IMHO wait until you are actually ready & know what you actually want before you start posting want ads for animals which you have no funds to even buy or you aren't even sure about wanting. Sincerely Mark
I know many breeders prefer subadult to hatchling, simply so they do not have to wait for them to reach maturity = more money sooner. If buying hatchlings is so popular, why is it that in just about every wanted or trade ad, breeders always specify subadult/adult females or females over 'such and such' weight?
I too am just going on my own personal experiences, as well as observation of others. They are so very different from what you are saying... why so contradictory? :confused:
gonesnakee
10-08-04, 01:30 PM
I'll have to agree with both Linds & Jeff. I know exactly what Linds is saying, but most of those people are out to try & produce ASAP whereas others such as Jeff & myself prefer to know who produced the animal & have it in our care ASAP as a hatchling. That way you are in control of how it is raised its whole life with the exception of the first few weeks. I know breeders who have refused to buy stock older than 2 months even directly from the breeder as they don't trust anyone but themselves when it comes to rasing future breeding stock whereas others don't even care as long as they can make them babies sooner over later. Mark
I also get a little skeptical when a breeder is willing to release a sub-adult or adult female. Gotta wonder why the breeder is getting rid of it; maybe it throws slugs, maybe it never even takes.
Denise101
10-08-04, 01:41 PM
Thanks for all the help everyone. I decided i will start out with balls, corns and a pair of sinoran mountain king. Ill post some pics when i get my new critters. I should have a new female Motley Corn with in a few days :}
Tim_Cranwill
10-08-04, 01:42 PM
I also wonder about that. Unless they are drastically reducing their bp collection or getting out of balls all together, why sell breedable females?
And the reason there are so many want ads for mature female bps is because people want to breed them immediately. Easy.
gonesnakee
10-08-04, 01:44 PM
Exactly Ron I always question this or did they powerfeed it, breed the crap outta it for a couple of seasons & then dump it or even sell you a proven breeder that only has a season or 2 left. If ya start with a healthy baby specimen from a reputable breeder you know its status from day one & should have no worries, Mark
Jeff_Favelle
10-08-04, 06:36 PM
If buying hatchlings is so popular, why is it that in just about every wanted or trade ad, breeders always specify subadult/adult females or females over 'such and such' weight?
Simple, people buy both. There's breeders than have a couple co-dom males and not nearly enough females, so they need BREEDABLE females ASAP or risk losing a potential of 10,s of thousands of dollars. That's easy. And then there's people who are just getting their first male who won't be ready right away or they have enough females for their pastel they already own, but they want 10 or 20 females to grow up for the mojave or spider they are GOING to buy NEXT year. Simple.
And when you think about it, its quite obvious. You want baby Ball Pythons, email a breeder. Simple. You want breedable females? Well people ain't going to give them up, so hence the "want ads". I think that's fairly obvious why that occurs.
And Mark, as always, hit the nail on the head. How can anyone seriously complain about captive bred animals being produced that can be offered as an ALTERNATIVE to wild caught garbage. That is a GOOD THING people.
In answer to the orginal post I'd suggest not running wanted ads for animals that you have no means of which to obtain.
No kidding. This is the same as the person who makes a website 2 years before producing their first animal! LOL! Why bother? ;)
If ya start with a healthy baby specimen from a reputable breeder you know its status from day one & should have no worries, Mark
Exactly!
There's room for a LOT more captive-bred snakes in this country. A LOT more. If there isn't, then we're all doomed as businesses, because how can we justify "investment animals" to people that will have no market? The market gets BETTER and BETTER every year. For sure. But if you put up an ad every 2 weeks and constantly decrease your price by 10% every time, why would ANYONE buy anything from that ad? I know I wouldn't. Just wait 2 more weeks and you'll get 20% off! Heck, wait longer and it'll be half price. That's why those people haven't sold anything. That's why they sit on the same animals week in and week out. Its quite humourous. Not just Ball Pythons. Happens with every snake/lizard. What can you do? If people run 10 ads and don't sell all their snakes within 3 months they claim the market is flooded or dead.
Whatever. Ask me how many ads I've run this year (zero). I let my queensnake account run dry like 8 months ago. It was like flushing money down the toilet. Most of the breeders that produce more than 100 animals are doing just fine. More than fine. Corey W. doesn't even have a friggin' website and he's rockin' the scene every year. Don P. doesn't update his website NEARLY as much as he should and whenever I go over to his house, 80 babies are gone and he unplugs another baby rack! No joke! The market rocks. So does the industry, and so does the hobby.
gonesnakee
10-08-04, 07:00 PM
I'll have to add to the whole website thing. Just because ya have a fancy digital camera & computer & the skills to use them, don't mean ya know Jack about breeding snakes. Most of the best breeders I know don't even have a site or maintain one just to humour people more than anything. The strong shall survive. Mark
Jeff_Favelle
10-08-04, 07:13 PM
Exactly Mark. The best thing a website can do for a breeder is eliminate the repetitive emails like "what animals do you work with", etc etc. I would say that my website saves me like 50 emails a month. That's some SERIOUS time saved that can be spent cleaning cages, feeding, etc etc.
If you didn't get the emails for animals before you had the fancy website, chances are, you won't get them after. Just produce quality animals and everything else that follows will be good. For sure.
CamHanna
10-08-04, 09:46 PM
All the same I think breeders / wholesalers should keep there sites, or at least their available page, up to date. As a prospective buyer it's a huge pain in the arse every time I'm prowlin' around the Internet and find exactly what I want but it's been sold three weeks ago.
For instance, at the end of last month Glades Herp had mangrove saltmarsh snakes, western foxsnakes, blue-striped ribbons snakes and a breedable female opal corn on the available page. I inquired about an order and all of those were already sold. I ended up making an order anyways because the had some E. flavirufa, yellow rats and texas longnoses that I wanted, I picked up some other stuff too... I just feel like braggin'. I'll post some pics later next week.
Brent Strande
10-09-04, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by CamHanna
All the same I think breeders / wholesalers should keep there sites, or at least their available page, up to date.
I had the same deal happen. I checked the available page of a well known site and found a female chondro that I was ready to make payment on priced at $800. I sent an email and then called. I was told on the phone that the site hadn't been updated for quite some time and that they now wanted $3000 for the female...
Oh well,
Jeff_Favelle
10-09-04, 12:58 PM
OUCH! An increase of almost 400%??? It must have had its teeth replaced with gold ones or something! LOL!
Brent Strande
10-09-04, 01:17 PM
I was pretty upset... I was already making plans on her... almost enough that I did get into conversation with the seller about a payment plan, then realized that that'd be OUTRAGEOUS at the time!! :) Someday, hopefully, that'll be no problem!
Ryan and Katie
10-09-04, 01:52 PM
Our only suggestion if you plan on breeding herps is get what you really want. Too many times have I seen people get into this hobby and buy up a monster collection of herps that they have big plans for, just to sell most of it off a year or two down the road due to loss of interest. It takes a long time to figure out what you really want to work with and I can't stress enough to be patient. If you can't afford what you really want then wait and save. Remember the more animals you have the more overhead (power,food,space,etc) that you have as well and that equals less money to buy more stuff (new animals, Cages, dimmers, etc).
The only catch 22 about what I am saying is that it's really hard to know what you really want without having kept and worked with different species, but the more you research the easier it will be to decide.
We have a long way to go yet but it's nice to know that the collection we have is exactly what we want. We have a geniune interest in every animal that we have which makes the work that we put in less like a chore and more like fun which is what this hobby is all about. Good luck!!!
SCReptiles
10-09-04, 09:35 PM
If you want to make real money, you have to be ahead of the curve. You have to have what the people are wanting right now. Albino balls are pulling a premium price right now, but they will not be by the time you breed hets and raise the babies to breed. Breeders are doing that all over the world right now and they have a jump start on you. If you want to make a few bucks, get inexpensive adult breeders now. Produce next season. It would be very foolish to invest thousands into high end morphs up front if you are not an experienced breeder. You need to work with low end snakes for a couple of seasons and know that you can produce. Once you have the facility down and you are producing, then it is less of a risk to invest. Any investment requires risk, from the stock market to breeding snakes. If you want to earn your living doing this, its going to require a several thousand dollar investment. Get the basics down on normals, then read the market and try to forecast what people are going to be wanting and get in on the ground floor. Just think, everyone who invested in lep geckos in the early 90’s made a fortune, now you can barely give them away. When I was working in retail, we were getting $1200 for a baby albino burm. Now, you see them “free to a good home” in the papers. Its all about timing, if you want to make money you have to have the “it” thing and the time that its hot. Buying babies while they are popular and breeding them 4 years later is not going to cut it. Hope that helped.
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