View Full Version : The rat ate my snake!
I had left a rat over night in the cage with my snake hoping it would get around to eating it. I thought nothing of it because I have done this many times before. When I woke up the next morning I saw to my horror that the rat had eaten two huge holes on either side of its tale (right above the cloaca)! After freaking out for about 10 minutes I took the snake to a vet which they kept the snake for 5 days and tried to stitch up the holes in the snake. The snake did not bite the rat in defense due to a infection in the front of its mouth (I had schedule an appointment for that later that week). They gave me several things to take home with me to give to the snake. Meloxicam, a pain killer which I had to get the snake to swallow, Fortaz, a antibiotic that needs to be injected with a syringe, and Chlorhexiderm a disinfectant to clean the wound. I had the snake home for about 10 days before I brought it back in for a check up. They tube fed the snake and removed one side of the stitches because they were not holding. The hole on the side of the snake worries me. Do you guys think the hole will be able to close itself up? The vet not really sure, they said they might make another attempt at it a few weeks from now, but until then to just keep it as clean as possible. Yeah I know I am an idiot for letting this happen, but the way I had been feeding it seem to be working out fine for the last 3 years. This was such a horrific shock to me that I didn’t go to sleep for 2 days! Has anyone heard of anything happening like this? The following picture only shows one side of the tail, the other side is still stitched up, ill post a pic of that if anyone is interested.
I feel incredibly bad for letting this happen!
Why on earth are you feeding your snake live rats????
I'll refrain for saying any more, but i know the other members won't be so nice..
HeatherRose
10-03-04, 11:09 PM
"Has anyone heard of anything happening like this?"
Yup, to people who feed their snakes live animals...Sounds like your snake is having a blast in your care...what kind is it?
Originally posted by Matt_K
Why on earth are you feeding your snake live rats????
I'll refrain for saying any more, but i know the other members won't be so nice..
Well from inexperience. The snake was given to me from a school teacher that didnt want to take care of it (which also feed the snake live rats). I never notice a problem with it so I continue to feed it live rats. I just didnt have any ideal that this would happen! Im willing to do and spend whatever to help the snake. I was hoping though if anyone thinks it will be alright.
Well it sucks to see such an needless injury. Stick around this board, you'll find a wealth of information here.
Well, the obvious thing would have been to do some research when you got the snake... But since you're willing to now... Take the snake to a vet.. Since you're willing to spend whatever it will take to help your snake, the vet bill shouldn't worry you.. That snake needs to see one ASAP..
HeatherRose
10-03-04, 11:18 PM
Do what the vet said, keeping it as clean as possible...if nothing improves or there's sign of infection, maybe it'd be beneficial to see the vet again...that's all the info I can really offer on the injuries...
Many snakes will take frozen mice,/rats which are available at many petstores. It may take time and a little patience, but you can probably see why it's best for the snake. Live mice/rats can also carry internal parisites. Your best bet would be to take the frozen mouse/rat and thaw it out in hot water, and then once it's thawed dunk it in super hot water, just before you hold it up to your snake (using tongs)...
Good luck with him, I hope he improves for you...:)
Originally posted by Matt_K
Well, the obvious thing would have been to do some research when you got the snake... But since you're willing to now... Take the snake to a vet.. Since you're willing to spend whatever it will take to help your snake, the vet bill shouldn't worry you.. That snake needs to see one ASAP..
I did, see first post. Vet bill $1100 so far.
Sorry, you keep editing your posts, so i don't know what info is there from before or from the edit..
daver676
10-03-04, 11:25 PM
Can you say hoax?
Originally posted by daver676
Can you say hoax?
I dont understand. What do you think is a hoax?
HeatherRose
10-03-04, 11:28 PM
http://community.webshots.com/photo/195676966/195678329MhCbPX
Yeah, sure looks like one :rolleyes:
Originally posted by daver676
Can you say hoax?
Originally posted by Hexis
I dont understand. What do you think is a hoax?
I think he's refering to the vet visit..
Originally posted by Matt_K
I think he's refering to the vet visit..
If thats the case then give me a minute and ill post up the bill.
bistrobob85
10-03-04, 11:37 PM
Feeding thawed food is also way easier cause you don't have to go to the petstore constantly to get some food... If you insist on feeding it fresh food, at least kill it yourself before you give it to your boa...
phil.
Yes, from now on I will buy frozen rats only. Here are 2 of the 3 bills... http://community.webshots.com/album/195676966IIxxXD
still looking for the other one. Web shots should be displaying the first one soon.
Darren179
10-04-04, 12:10 AM
No bill just pics of snake
Originally posted by Darren179
No bill just pics of snake
Sorry I had forgotten that webshots takes up to 30min (from what it says) to load the pic to their public servers. I checked it and it is up now. Dont forget to hit the normal size option on the gray navigation section on top of the pic when you view them.
Hexis man, that's rough. People on here are going to give you a hard time about letting this happen to your snake, but don' ttake it to heart. I find that a lot of people on here expect everyone to be fully knowledged experts like them.......yea right. Anyways, I have a friend whose been feeding his BP live rodents forever now and he's had no problems so I could see why you thought this wouldn't happen and what not to the snake that has been eating them for it's entire life as well. I hope the snake heals up and you smack the vet for letting them take your snake and do stuff for it that you could have done for way less money. Hope you the best and you obviously feel horrible about this happening as you have spent 1000 dollars american on this battle wound. I'm sure many people would have thrown it in the freezer by now if that's what it would have came to. Congrats for taking responsibility for the injury to this snake. Hope the best for you and your snake.
Mike
Corey Woods
10-04-04, 05:56 AM
Hexis,
I've had it happen to me. A couple years ago I had a granite burmese hatchling get chewed up by an adult mouse. The mouse was in with the snake for no more than an hour. The wounds were so bad I put the snake in the freezer. This year I had another adult mouse chew up one of my het red axanthic males. The wounds are just topical and will heal up with the next couple sheds. Again, the mouse was only in with the snake for about an hour. Snakes are fairly stupid and if they don't want to eat they don't want to eat. Some rodents are very aggressive (depending on the line) and will start attacking the snake if they feel threatened. When I'm feeding live small and medium rats I always make sure they get eaten or I take them out after about 45 minutes. I've never had a rat chew on a snake other than some minor bitting while they are being constricted (that is what tongs are for.......for grabbing the rats face when they do that).
As for the wounds on your snake. As long as you keep them dry, clean and keep putting on the meds it should be fine. If it were me I wouldn't have taken the animal to the vet. You'll probably have scaring but snakes are very good at healing themselves.
Good luck with your animal
Corey
PS The only people here that will give you a hard time for feeding live are the pet keepers that don't have any idea what it is like being a breeder.........having 200 animals that will only take live.
bighillreptiles
10-04-04, 07:05 AM
1000 and a leason well learnd I hope? good luck with him !
JimmyDavid
10-04-04, 07:19 AM
WE must remember that, at some point in time, we were all short of experience with herps as well, so giving someone a hard time for this sounds a bit like a brag.
In fact, Hexis, used common sense to deal with it - snakes hunt rats, i'll feed rats!
I never feed live rats because i know the danger, but yes, i do feed other live animals that don't fight back (chicks, for example). If you feed ONLY dead animals, be aware that your snake will not quite well replace her intestinal flora. With time, she'll become less able to deal with infections or other health problems.
Originally posted by paul vanhooser
1000 and a leason well learnd I hope? good luck with him !
A lesson burned into my brain for the rest of my life. Not because the amount that it has cost but the thought that my pet was being eaten a live 7 feet away from where I slept and I didn’t do anything about it. That I will never forget. As I watched the veterinarian take my snake out of the kennel the same day of the accident, I couldn’t hold back the tears, I had to leave room. They gave me estimate of what it would cost to try and save the snake or put it down. Putting it down for something stupid I did was not an option. I only wish my lesson wasn’t at the cost of the snake's wellbeing. Thanks all for your replies. I’m glade to hear that some of you think my snake will be all right!
Well said, Hexis. I am sure your snake will pull through.
djc3674
10-04-04, 09:54 AM
Let me just say it could of been ALOT worse. Good thing the rat only bit it's tail and not the other end or you would have found a dead snake rather than an injured one. The only real mistake you made was leaving a live prey item in with your snake unsupervised, especially overnight....not a good thing...but it's good that you have learned from it.
I have been feeding my snakes live prey since I first got them, and haven't had an ill effects from it. I also hand feed them so they always get a good strike on the face. If the snake does not eat the live prey item right away, take it out and try again later. My boa just took down a 3 or 4 lb rabbit like a champ. I had a big stick in hand just incase things went awry....which they did not.
Just from now on either supervise closely when feeding live or just switch your snake to f/t.
Invictus
10-04-04, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Corey Woods
PS The only people here that will give you a hard time for feeding live are the pet keepers that don't have any idea what it is like being a breeder.........having 200 animals that will only take live.
You're incorrect Corey. I'm a breeder who has over 100 animals, and I think it's absolutely crazy to feed live, and this little story is absolute proof of it. Almost any snake (yes, including the stubborn BPs) will take prekilled prey, be it frozen or freshly whacked, if you are persistent.
So this testimony is for everyone who thinks it's ok to feed live. Just because it has never happened before doesn't mean it's not going to. You hear the same garbage all the time "Oh, I've been feeding live for X years and have never had a problem".... you've been lucky. Having a problem is only a matter of time. I hope you don't lose some good breeders, especially you Corey. That could be a rather costly loss.
Invictus
10-04-04, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by djc3674
[B]The only real mistake you made was leaving a live prey item in with your snake unsupervised, especially overnight....
No, the mistake that was made was feeding live prey. If you think supervision is going to make one ioda of difference, go ahead and try to get between an angry rat and an injured boa. I'll place bets on which animal takes your fingers off first.
Invictus you said it "almost any snake"
not all but almost
Scott
djc3674
10-04-04, 10:06 AM
Not going to get into a pissing contest with you dude. I do my thing..you do yours. I am careful as one can possibly be. I have only two snakes. 7ft plus BCI, 3 1/2 ft Hog Island. I can give my full attention to each snake until the prey is dead.
go ahead and try to get between an angry rat and an injured boa. I'll place bets on which animal takes your fingers off first.
Yo man...if you think I would stick my finger next to a scared angry rat..your nuts. I use a stick, if my boa doesn't strike it's face, I immediatly jam that thing into the rats face and keep it away from the snake. But, I rarely have to do that. I lower the rat in by the tail and hold it above the snake, they strike perfectly almost every time.
Hexis, good for you in going the extra mile in saving your snake and realising your folly. I'm sure you will do alot better in the future.
As for Corey's comment, all I can say is I feed live rats occasionally too (I breed them myself and don't feed anything bigger than a weanling) and I do realise the risk I put my animals at. But I never close the lid on a snake with a live rat in it. I always watch to see if the snake grabs the rat within the first 10 secs of being placed inside the enclosure. Never had a rat bite so far, but that's not saying that I never will.
Ken, I think you misunderstood Corey's comment. Don't think he was saying that it's ok to feed live, else he wouldn't have included that he's lost snakes to it. Think he's referring more to the ones who give a newbie a hard time and offer no consolation or advice.
Artemis
10-04-04, 10:27 AM
ooooh. ouch. Im wincing here.
I have nothing else to add save to say I agree with Paul Vanhooser. Lesson learned.
snakepete
10-04-04, 10:28 AM
why are you feeding a snake with mouth infection to begin with?
Invictus
10-04-04, 10:37 AM
I lower the rat in by the tail and hold it above the snake, they strike perfectly almost every time.
That doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
Supervised or not, when a snake strikes and coils a live rat, the snake is even more vulnerable than he was before the bite. One of the big time breeders in the states, can't remember which one just offhand, has a great article about this on their site. It describes how a snake had its tongue bitten off by a rat that was struggling to stay alive. I've also seen boa constrictors MANGLED by live rats which the snake DID strike a coil right away. A lot of people don't take this into consideration.
Not going to get into a pissing contest with you dude. I do my thing..you do yours.
Sure thing. I'll have injury-free snakes, and one day you won't. And by the way "my thing" is being outspoken about my extreme opposition to feeding live prey, and educating new people in the hobby about the dangers of it.
The fact that you only have 2 snakes, boas nonetheless, which are about the least picky of any snake, and you think it's still ok to feed live, well.... you're right. Let's not have a pissing contest. Let's compare snake scars in 5 years. I can guarantee you beyond any shadow of a doubt that my snakes will have NONE. You cannot make that guarantee. Why? Because that would be crazy. You put your snakes at risk needlessly. I don't. So go ahead and do "your thing". I just hope your snakes aren't the ones who end up suffering for it.
and educating new people in the hobby
Aren't we all?! :p
"Almost any snake (yes, including the stubborn BPs) will take prekilled prey, be it frozen or freshly whacked, if you are persistent."
Almost being the key word here.
I have tried EVERY trick there is for my female ball, INCLUDING starving her out which lasted 7 months! (not two weeks, not a month, SEVEN months) Because I hated the thought of feeding live, I was willing to let her wait it out. Didn't work. She likes live, that that's that. In fact her feeding response is so strong for live, I don't even bother trying to switch her over anymore. A year of it was enough for me. She does quite well eating live. And if one more person tells me "She'll take FT" I'll puke! LOL :D
She is also my only live eater.
Marisa
Originally posted by Ptindy
I find that a lot of people on here expect everyone to be fully knowledged experts like them.......yea right.
I dont think anyone expects everyone to know everything about snakes. What you should know is how to care for something before you buy it though. Would you have a baby on the way and not have the supplies needed or the crib setup at home??? Would you buy a dog and not buy the supplies??? I think not so why take a snake into your care and not know anything about proper care. Obviously he doesnt know good care or he wouldnt feed live. Its not even the feeding live part that gets me, its how he left it in the cage overnight that shows me he is not fit to own a snake.
Now you say your willing to dish out thousands of dollars to treat your snake or do whatever it is you need to do to fix this. If thats the truth then maybe you should find it a new owner and or do some serious research.
Why do people always wait untill the bad happens to make changes. Your snake got bit and now you change your feeding habits. People wait untill there Leopards to die from impaction before they take them off sand. People house two snakes together for years and say its ok untill one eats the other and then suddenly they change their mind about housing two snakes together. People need to research before they take something into their care and need to actually listen to facts and suggestions put out by other people and this **** wouldnt happen anymore.
Invictus
10-04-04, 10:52 AM
Why do people always wait untill the bad happens to make changes.
I couldn't have said it better!
Marisa, have you ever tried freshly killed? I've had BPs who were on a hunger strike take freshly whacked mice (since we can't have live rats in alberta), and they went crazy for it.
Invictus
10-04-04, 10:53 AM
Here's another trick I learned that worked like a charm... remove their water for 2 days, then give them a wet F/T rat. You may be surprised what the THIRST response can do for a picky feeder.
Why do people always wait untill the bad happens to make changes. Your snake got bit and now you change your feeding habits. People wait untill there Leopards to die from impaction before they take them off sand. People house two snakes together for years and say its ok untill one eats the other and then suddenly they change their mind about housing two snakes together. People need to research before they take something into their care and need to actually listen to facts and suggestions put out by other people and this **** wouldnt happen anymore.
Why? Simple, not everyone has access to online forums or knows about them. 5 yrs ago I didn't know k-snake.como existed. It's a simple matter of knowing now and correcting the problems. It's human to err. Not everyone who has kids raises them up the "right" way. I think it's about time for people to get off their high horses about being so damn knowledgeable abut everything and getting on an un- or ill-educated person's case. Noone knows everything about snakes. There's always something new. People learn everyday. So if you got a problem with it, get over it. I'm sick and tired of seeing NEWBIES punishing newbies for something they had to learn themselves too.
Oh btw, Invictus, there ARE snakes who are pickier than your own. I have a mole king who was starved to being a skeleton for over a year until I learnt that he liked live pink rats. Every other "trick" was tried.
Invictus
10-04-04, 11:03 AM
If it's a last resort, of course it has to be done Vanan. I never claimed otherwise. I had kenyan sand boas who would only take live mice as well, and I tried EVERYTHING. It angers me to no possible end though when people just say "I've fed live for X years with no problems". NOBODY and I mean NOBODY can give me a single good reason that has any scientific backing to it to feed live unless it's as a last resort. That's my point.
Oh yeah we have tried freshly killed. We whack all our own rodents so we have had easy access to twitching ones, bloody ones, ones that got accidently mashed...I have tried them soaking wet in hot water, dry hot, heating up with a lamp instead of water, omg the list is so long. I stopped trying now, but even now and again when I have a FT rat left over, I give her a shot. Nothin'.
I have even tried mouse scenting since she at one time long ago was a mouse eater. I tied skins, I dripped blood. Nothing. She would rather starve over eat FT. A few breeders I have spoken too also have older WC balls that refuse FT and it's just the way some are. Most I agree will switch, but there are some balls that simply will not, amongst other species of snake. And if it's between not eating for a year and live, I choose live.
Marisa
Originally posted by Vanan
There's always something new. People learn everyday. So if you got a problem with it, get over it. I'm sick and tired of seeing NEWBIES punishing newbies for something they had to learn themselves too.
Well said Vanan..
djc3674
10-04-04, 11:05 AM
*SIGHS* oh brother..some people....i dunno
my poor mangled and scared BCI...he just suffers under my care
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/djc3674/Brutus4.jpg
Originally posted by snakepete
why are you feeding a snake with mouth infection to begin with?
When I had got the snake about 3 years ago it had a mouth infection. I’m not sure how the infection came about (possibly from dragging its face on the top of the cage), but it wasn't effecting it's feeding. Looking back on it now it was very likely that the snake ate because it was starving to death. The teacher fed it whatever the students brought in. When I had gotten the snake it's head was the largest thing on its body and it was about 3 to 4 feet long. The rib cage was clearly visible from even a distants, and was also wasn’t shedding right either. Within about a month of feeding it the swelling went down and everything was fine. The infection started back up about 3 or 4 weeks ago, I was hoping that it would go back down on its own like before. This time was different of course, as the snake wouldn’t eat like it normally did. The day before this had happen I had schedule an appointment. In the mean time I left the rat in the cage incase the snake changed its mind. This as you all have pointed out was a BIG MISTAKE!
Originally posted by hooter
I dont think anyone expects everyone to know everything about snakes. What you should know is how to care for something before you buy it though.
But I didnt buy it. The snake was given to me by a teacher at a high school. It is obvious that I didnt do a lot of research but I didnt think there was anything else to know. I fed that snake hundreds of times, and never saw a problem which is why I never thought anything of it. I am tring to set things right now... can anyone suggest any good books?
The Boa Constrictor Manual: by Philippe De Vosjoli
Boas: Everything About Selection, Care, Nutrition, Diseases, Breeding, and Behavior: by Doug Wagner, David Wenzel
Captive Husbandry and Propagation of the Boa Constrictors and Related Boas: by David Fogel
I got these titles off www.Amazon.com so if you can't find them at a local pet shop or book store, you could always order them there...
In the meantime, there's hundreds of caresheets available on the net that can defiantly help you get started... Good to see you're making such a strong effort to correct everything, good on you! :thumbsup:
Invictus
10-04-04, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by djc3674
[B]*SIGHS* oh brother..some people....i dunno
my poor mangled and scared BCI...he just suffers under my care
You're right.... some people.....
Just like you, Hexis has fed live MANY times, and nothing happened... until recently. It only takes once. The difference is, even though we hear this time after time after time after time, you somehow think it's not going to happen to you. You somehow think it's not going to happen to your snake. You somehow think that the rats you feed aren't going to kick, bite, and scratch your snake, even when your snake has it in a death coil.
And for the record, I didn't say your snake was mangled, I said it's a matter of time. At least Hexis is doing something about it. Good for you, Hexis.
And again, I'd like to clarify that if it's a last resort, of course it must be done.
Bartman
10-04-04, 11:43 AM
I completely disagree with feeding live as well, but as someone before in the thread said he used common sense (snakes hunt rats so ill feed it rats) Its not that he knew it wasnt good to feed it live and he did, and im sure if he knew this was going to happen he wouldnt have started in the first place, but what im trying to say is at least he is TAKING it to the vet. Ive seen a couple threads on this site over the last year or two about how people have sick or injured animals and will not take it to the vet for a 100 bucks, but this guy just blew 1200 for his snake, and you guys are STILL yelling at him??!
Man give him a break. Personally I want to say good on you, but now you realize the problem with feeding live so dont do it again! Its juts a lesson learnt, unfortunately, the hard way which is a sad thing to here, but good for you for at least trying to help this poor snake.
As for the guy with the 2 boa's...c'mon..these snakes will eat anything so why even risk the injury? I bet if you held up a f/t, or even a f/k, it will take it with no problems, so why would you even risk your snakes health or even life because of a reason I personally cannot think of.
Just my 2 cents
sassmuffin
10-04-04, 12:30 PM
All I have to say at this point is, Hexis, I'm glad you learned from your mistakes and I'm glad you're now taking steps to correct the things which led up to the mistake [not enough knowledge of the animal, etc.]. I hope that your snake makes a full recovery and I'd also like to say that it's to see that you have been an adult about the situation and taken full responsibility of the incident.
Again, best to you and your snake =)
Yes I agree with this as well.
Going to the vet is FAR more than most of the members here will do, even if they claim they would. No offense, but it's true. Even I go to the vet as a last resort. It's life. But at the same time I am finacially and otherwise prepared to.
Good for you, and I hope this incident spurs you to read read read read and learn as much about the proper care of ball pythons as you possibly can. Your snake can have a long happy life ahead of it, and coming here to ask questions was a good start.
The books you were referanced are a starting place, as well as typing in "ball python" in google and sitting down for a good many hours sorting through information and just learning. Finding out what are facts and what aren't are all part of it.
Good luck.
Marisa
HetForHuman
10-04-04, 12:41 PM
Its a boa, not a ball Marisa ;)
djc3674
10-04-04, 12:52 PM
The difference is, even though we hear this time after time after time after time, you somehow think it's not going to happen to you. You somehow think it's not going to happen to your snake. You somehow think that the rats you feed aren't going to kick, bite, and scratch your snake, even when your snake has it in a death coil.
Noted....thanks.
For the record....if (and it's a big IF) a rat should some how kill or seriously injure my snake, I will eat my words, and you can tell me "I told ya so". Maybe I will just keep my big guy on rabbits, they hardly put up a fight and pretty much just freeze. I've seen jumbo rats put up more of a fight then the 3 or 4lb rabbit he just ate. Oh and...if I don't hand feed my little guy, I wack the rat pretty damn hard. It just doesn't see possible that a twitching rat is going to cause him harm.
Invictus
10-04-04, 02:56 PM
No, but feeding severely stunned prey is quite different from feeding it live and well prey. And by the way, rabbits are about twice as likely to hurt a snake as a rat is, not to mention the fact that they kick harder, and have longer, stronger teeth.
For the record....if (and it's a big IF) a rat should some how kill or seriously injure my snake, I will eat my words, and you can tell me "I told ya so".
It's not that big of an if. And by the time this happens, it's too late, isn't it? You're already directly responsible for the injury. So if you're ok with being responsible for injuring or killing your snake, why are you in the hobby? Is not the point of captivity to spare them the stresses and harms that they face in the wild such as predators, cold snaps, and feeding injuries? Why not just throw a mongoose in with your boa? I mean, after all, there's still a *chance* the boa would win the fight, right?
It's funny how you seem to think it's ok to feed live "just because". Especially with boas, there is NO REASON for it. You haven't even TRIED prekilled prey, have you?
Originally posted by Vanan
Why? Simple, not everyone has access to online forums or knows about them.
I guess the books at your local pet store dont count then?
I guess if my internet gets cut off and I want a new animal i'll have to wait :o Just because you are on the internet 24/7 I assume doesnt mean everyone uses it and btw he obviously has access to the internet because he is here posting isnt he or damn maybe this thread is a illusion :p
Bartman
10-04-04, 03:04 PM
For the record....if (and it's a big IF) a rat should some how kill or seriously injure my snake, I will eat my words, and you can tell me "I told ya so".
Why even take the risk? And why even have to go through someone telling you "I told ya so" Hexis is basically telling you that its inevitable!!! Just get it off live, I dont see what the big deal is because its clearly not a last resort.
Corey Woods
10-04-04, 03:10 PM
Any breeder would know that most hatchlings won't take dead right out of the egg. In my experience only about 5% of hatchlings will eat dead as their first meals. The other 95% will only eat live as their first meals. Most WC animals won't take dead either......most need live to get started. I feed dead when I can..........all of the big breeders feed strickly live (Ralph Davis, Pete Kahl, VPI, NERD.......and 95% of the other breeders as well).
Corey
djc3674
10-04-04, 03:26 PM
And by the way, rabbits are about twice as likely to hurt a snake as a rat is
hmm..not from what I've seen..rats seem to be faster and more viscious. Either way, stop acting like your some reptile God and trying to force your preferred methods on others. There are many people that fee f/t and there are many people that feed live. Just leave it at that.
That whole part about you telling me "I told ya so" was only to show that I am confident in my ability to feed and supervise my snakes. Ofcourse I care about them and would not want either one to get hurt. I can't stand though when people assume that you don't care about your animals because you feed live and do not pracice the same methods.
Invictus
10-04-04, 04:13 PM
Corey:
Here's an article on Pete Kahl's site recommending prekilled prey:
http://www.pkreptiles.com/pdf/articles/frozen_vs_live.pdf
So if he does do it, he sure seems unwilling to recommend it to others.
Bob Clark is also one of Rodent Pro's #1 customers, so he obviously feeds F/T....
I understand that most WC imports, at least as far as BPs go, will not eat F/T prey, so I'm not slagging you here at all.
But on a sidenote, I had a wild caught Guyanan boa that took F/T without an issue, a WC Amazon tree boa that didn't hesitate to take it, and many many many other reptiles that have been WC imports, and they didn't hesitate to take F/T. What I'm saying is, if they WILL take it, there is NO REASON to give them live.
Invictus
10-04-04, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by djc3674
[B]Either way, stop acting like your some reptile God and trying to force your preferred methods on others.
Excuse me? I have an opinion based on facts, and I express it. You are yet to back up your opinion with a single good reason why you feed live. Probably because there is no good reason short of all other methods failing. Quit acting like you're some kind of snake god that can somehow stop a rodent from biting the inside of your snake's mouth or scratching the crap out him while they fight for survival. Use your stick method all you want. What are you going to do when the injuries occur during the death coil, hmmm?
It has nothing to do with MY preferred methods. It's a simple fact - live prey can injure or kill your snake. Prekilled prey cannot.
There are many people that fee f/t and there are many people that feed live. Just leave it at that.
Yes, some people put the life and health of their snake at risk for no reason other than their own amusement, and others do not. Some feed live because absolutely no other method works, others do it just because they are lazy.
That whole part about you telling me "I told ya so" was only to show that I am confident in my ability to feed and supervise my snakes.
Your confidence is absolutely unwarranted. Like I said, most injuries occur AFTER the snake has already struck and constricted the prey. You are POWERLESS at that point.
Ofcourse I care about them and would not want either one to get hurt. I can't stand though when people assume that you don't care about your animals because you feed live and do not pracice the same methods.
It's not about practicing the SAME methods, it's about practicing the SAFEST methods possible, something you are not even attempting. Your actions completely contradict your self-professed good intentions. The absolute proof and fact of the matter is, one day your snake might miss, or might encounter a rodent with a will to live, and when this happens, you will have an injured or dead snake. Note - not opinion. FACT.
djc3674
10-04-04, 04:39 PM
Your confidence is absolutely unwarranted. Like I said, most injuries occur AFTER the snake has already struck and constricted the prey. You are POWERLESS at that point.
Wrong you are !!! I have already had to use the stick method on a few occasions after the snake struck the rats side and coiled. The rats head was free to move, I stuck the stick under its chin and held it away from my snake until it was dead, all before the rat even had a chance to bite.
Edit-dammit. 5 pages ago, I said I was not going to get into a pissing match with you over this. I simply stated something and look what it's turned into. So basicall Ken....
Invictus
10-04-04, 04:52 PM
Again, don't tell me which opinions I can and cannot express. Although a response like the one you have above is the response I'd expect from someone who knows they have lost a debate. If you can't debate openly on a forum such as this without pulling immature crap like the above, maybe forums aren't for you. I will not "STFU", especially when it's something I'm passionate about. I'm sorry you can't handle that.
I really only posted this up to get some opinion on the wound, to get an ideal on how it will heal. Shake hands you guys, or take it to another post please.
Sorry, I just happen to be very passionate about feeding live to my snakes and having injuries happen to them. Hey, it happens in the wild why not? ;) :p
Chill out people. For those of you who will never feed live, good for you, for those who are unaware of the risks, learn now, and for those who feed live and are sticking to it, take precautions. Enough said.
Ok, this had gotten WAY out of hand!!! Grow up. First of all, to Hexis, it's NOT your fault that you were feeding live. Thats what you were taught. I'm glad that now you know its wrong you won't do it again. And it's VERY nice to see that you are taking responsibilty. Lots of people would have said f**k the snake after seeing a $1200 vet bill. Second I am totally against feeding live also. BUT if you have tried everything else and nothing works then you gotta do what you gotta do. You don't want to let your snake starve to death. So if you HAVE to feed live to a snake just supervise them. Don't take your eyes off of that snake and the mouse. Thirdly, I have a huge problem with people that feed live just for the thrill of seeing a snake kill a mouse. I know its fun to have all your drinkin buddies over and give them a little show. But if you are willing to put an animals life in jeopardy just for a little rush you should think twice about having them. Just my 2 cents.
HetForHuman
10-04-04, 04:58 PM
Yeah i'd have to say this has turned absolutely STUPID!!!!!
No wonder i never participate in these discusions at all, there is always someone that thinks they know it all, but actually really dont have a freakin clue, they just go by what they have read from other people that dont have a clue.
This is suppose to be a discussion board, not a friggin pissin match board. I'd say there is a few people on here that need to grow up, and maybe have a look at themselves because they are deffinitely not the almighty reptile keeper they think they are.
20 snakes, 50 snakes, 200 snakes, does not make you a reptile EXPERT, anyone can go out and buy 100 snakes in a week and say i own more than you so i know more than you.
So lets try to make this a decent place for new and old herpers to come and learn without having to deal with all this crap, or im sure we will start seeing our fair share of people leaving..
Have a good day.
Originally posted by HetForHuman
Yeah i'd have to say this has turned absolutely STUPID!!!!!
No wonder i never participate in these discusions at all, there is always someone that thinks they know it all, but actually really dont have a freakin clue, they just go by what they have read from other people that dont have a clue.
This is suppose to be a discussion board, not a friggin pissin match board. I'd say there is a few people on here that need to grow up, and maybe have a look at themselves because they are deffinitely not the almighty reptile keeper they think they are.
20 snakes, 50 snakes, 200 snakes, does not make you a reptile EXPERT, anyone can go out and buy 100 snakes in a week and say i own more than you so i know more than you.
So lets try to make this a decent place for new and old herpers to come and learn without having to deal with all this crap, or im sure we will start seeing our fair share of people leaving..
Have a good day.
Somebody get that man a beer!!! :D
djc3674
10-04-04, 05:05 PM
Okay I went overboard...but when this whole thing started I wansn't trying to argue with anyone...you can read from the beginning and see that. So on that note...I am done with this...y'all can think what ya want, but really it comes down to my snakes and my preference.
I know its fun to have all your drinkin buddies over and give them a little show.
hmmm...making ignorant assumptions are you. Actually, I have feeding parties and charge an admission fee...gotta pay for them bunnies some how!
*above statement was complete sarcasim**
Not once did I say I was talking about you. DID I? Thats your decision to feed live. I was saying that I dislike it when people do it for a thrill. Thats all. No one said thats why YOU do it.
But anyways, I am sorry if you took it that way.
Just b/c everyone else is doing it I will too!
PEE!!!
Invictus
10-04-04, 07:34 PM
Funny how someone can't express something they feel passionate about without people sarcastically suggesting that said individual thinks they are an "almighty keeper" or that said individual "knows it all". Actually, it's not funny at all. It's pathetic. It doesn't take an "almighty keeper" or a "know-all" to know that feeding live puts the snake at serious risk. But whatever, think what you will. I'll continue to express things I feel passionate about, and until someone gives me a good reason for feeding live OTHER than being a last resort, the bottom line is, they are putting their snakes at risk for no reason whatsoever.
Bartman
10-04-04, 07:46 PM
I don’t think this has anything at all to do with people knowing more then someone else, I believe Ken is making a solid argument on why people should not feed live prey. It’s a risk for the animal’s health and life, so why even take it if you don’t have to?
I completely agree that live should only be used as a last resort because I personally believe it’s a harsh way for a mouse/rat to die and there is a possible risk to the snakes health, which is a commitment you made whether you knew it or not. As the owner of this animal, it is our responsibility to keep it away from any harm. These are not wild snakes, and imo should not be treated like wild snakes.
Again as for telling people to grow up and calling them almighty keepers is pretty ignorant. All we're trying to do is enlighten people on why it’s poor judgment to feed live prey. No need to start throwing out unneeded comments....
Again as for telling people to grow up and calling them almighty keepers is pretty ignorant. All we're trying to do is enlighten people on why it’s poor judgment to feed live prey. No need to start throwing out unneeded comments....
I think the reason for that is the way in which the good advice was relayed. Advice is advice but it depends on the way you relay whether it will be accepted or not. Ken has a very good point but arguing it is not gonna get anyone anywhere. Sorry the thread had to become a pissing match. If only people were willing to learn and others are willing to forgive and forget. :)
Confucious say...the loudest voice doesn't always get heard. :p :D
Disclaimer: The above post is no way related to the true Confucian sayings. :D:D:D:
First, When I had a bp I fed mice alive for about 5 feedings then I got so freakin scared that my snake was gonna get killed or injured for a $1.00 mouse I just started buying f/t. What id have to say is u learn from ur mistake and ur case spent 1200. But for a $200 or so snake I would have just froze him not to sound like a coal hearted B**** or anything but it just wouldnt be worth it to me but then again I havent been in your shoes so I dont know what I would have done. I think your being Very hard on him and you have rideculed him enough for his dumb mistake. personally I think all snakes should go back to the wild and live there if there wasnt the destruction of forests and other habitats. Forums are not for pissing around about mistakes and comparing what u do and what other people do. He just asked if u could tell him what to do not to bug him about it.
Thats all i have to say!!!!!!!!!!!
some people just never learn.....poor snake..i hope you never do that ever again!
Invictus
10-04-04, 09:32 PM
You're right Vanan... my point isn't getting across this way, so I apologize. Not because I think I'm wrong in this, and I'm sure as hell not going to apologize for how passionate I am about the issue, but because I got way too fired up on a public forum... again. Yeah, bad habit. I'm man enough to say sorry for how this came across, though. Time to move on.
Bartman
10-04-04, 09:36 PM
First, When I had a bp I fed mice alive for about 5 feedings then I got so freakin scared that my snake was gonna get killed or injured for a $1.00 mouse I just started buying f/t. What id have to say is u learn from ur mistake and ur case spent 1200. But for a $200 or so snake I would have just froze him not to sound like a coal hearted B**** or anything but it just wouldnt be worth it to me
Someone do us all a favour and shut down this thread before it just completely explodes!!
Ken; no offense, 4 pages too late.
I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here, why not, can't be more ignorant or rude than some of the posts here already... I feed live. More than half of my snakes eat live, and I'm going to keep it that way. My personal collection will continue to eat live as long as I'm the one feeding them. I've fed well over 1500 live rats and not ONCE have I had an issue that required my intervention. Go ahead, "you're putting your animals life in danger", "Have you tried everything else before resorting to live?" or the less tactful, "Are you just an idiot?". If you're going to feed live, you have to be responsible about it: 1. If you're snake doesn't take the meal in under an hour, you're looking for trouble if you leave the food item in there. 2. Supervise, supervise, supervise. It's funny to see people who own 50 corns and garters saying there is NO REASON to feed live. True for you. Balls: they ALL will not take f/k or f/t, and if you think they will, you probably own one or two. Consider yourself lucky. Most people who own 'a few' balls know that you are nowhere near as knowledgeable as you intend to come across. As for the big breeders doing it, it's a FACT. Injuries happen, Corey was big enough to actually admit to two. I've actually received advice from two BIG breeders of balls how to feed live. Will they admit to it openly every chance they get? Hope not, because there will always be one idiot who doesn't know when to shut his/her mouth, and feels that by talking louder and longer, that their point is more valid than anyone elses. I've said too much, I don't feel the need to be that person. Gotta go feed my big, healthy, beautiful balls....
Tomorrow I have to go out of state for a few days (be back Thursday night). I'll have someone looking over the snake. If you guys want I can post pictures (once a week) on the progress of the healing so that perhaps if you notice something wrong you can tell me and I can take it to the vet asap (I dont have any experience in judging if a snake wound has taken a turn for the worse or not). Hopefully if all is well the snake will not need an early visit (next appoint due in 3 weeks). Thank you for your replies, I have put them into consideration.
Diggy415
10-04-04, 11:27 PM
Yep i feed FT and fed live but i WATCHED ppl like you probably own pittbulls or rotts and make the breed bad as well, this makes me sick and not afraid to say so, there is a saying, "idiots shouldn't be allowed to breed" should of put your snake down hope it gets infected and you go through hell like it did, hope hell for you never ends.
Invictus
10-05-04, 12:09 AM
Mykee - I never called you or anyone else here an idiot. I assume you're referring to me when you say "there will always be one idiot who doesn't know when to shut his/her mouth, and feels that by talking louder and longer, that their point is more valid than anyone elses." Sorry you feel that way. I think you're a great guy, but I do not and will never agree with feeding live if the snake will otherwise take prekilled. I've said at least twice in this thread that I KNOW BPs don't always take FT food, and that if it has to be done, it has to be done. The reason I started huffing and puffing is because it was not BPs in this case - it was boas. I've NEVER known a boa to not take F/T food. Ever. Wild caught or otherwise. You and Corey are defending live feeding because you have BPs - and I understand that, believe me. it's common knowledge how stubborn they can be. But as you said, someone who has 50 corns, or even in this case, 2 boas, has NO EXCUSE. So this debate was never about you OR Corey OR any BP owner. I understand the grief BP owners go through, I used to have 2. I traded them because I had no desire to work with normals anymore, PLUS I had no time to supervise live feedings. But, I'm just an idiot, so what do I know. I'm going to go tend to my injury-free snakes that are 100% guaranteed to remain so now.
Jeff_Favelle
10-05-04, 02:44 AM
There's a RIGHT way to feed live and a WRONG way to feed live. Let me give you a hint; leaving the rat in the cage unattended with no food or nothing to do but chew on a snake in a gladiator-style cage is the WRONG way to feed live.
And boas have an INSANE feeding response. They should never really need to be fed live rodents except rat pinks/fuzzies shortly after they are born.
First of all, frozen/thawed rodents have less vitamin C than live or prekilled. I just wanted to put this out there since it hasn't been mentioned yet.
However, live rodents that haven't fed for several hours are just as deficient in vitamin C. The vitamin C has to do with some digestive process if I remember correctly from the article I read.
So, first and foremost, I think everyone can agree that you should NEVER feed a snake unattended for several hours; that's just obvious.
Prekilled should be everyone's first choice. However, I am totally against whacking a rodent through blunt force. There are proven studies that using carbon dioxide to kill rodents is humane. However, I have yet to see a proven study that whacking a rodent is more humane than having it constricted by a snake. Just because it's quicker doesn't necessarily mean it's more humane. Not to mention, there's always the chance that blunt trauma does not kill the rodent immediately, in which case it will be in SEVERE pain for more than an instant.
In any event, if it is reasonable (i.e. small enough collection, access to humane methods) to feed pre-killed, one definitely should.
To the guy who only has 2 boas and feeds them live, you should at least try prekilled first. It's not exactly expensive to setup your own CO2 chamber, and it's unfair to put rodents through suffering if you have the time and the means to do otherwise. Also, although I personally feel that the risk of a snake coming to harm is very low, there is no reason to subject them to this risk at all if you have the time and means to feed pre-killed. If you give prekilled a good shot and it doesn't work, you'll have good reason to stick to live. There ARE reasons to feed live, and those who do so carefully and responsibly are perfectly justified to do so. However, those who feed live for NO reason fully deserve to get crapped on.
tdherper
10-05-04, 07:37 AM
I' fascinated by this thread. I have a Durango Mtn. King I got as an earthworm from PCPC, he was very small, and after many attempts with scenting pinkies, he finally began to eat. It will not eat dead prey, or go for dangled prey. I am worried about injury as well, so I just feed him multiple rat fuzzies as oppossed to live mice. Am I hurting the snake somehow. I thought this was a good solution, and after reading this post, I see it just maybe.
Diggy415, We have punished this guy enough for the dumb mistake he made and on top of that he has to pay $1200 for a $3.00 meal. We all make mistakes and the mistakes can be costly! I hope the snake gets better but you hope it gets an infection and he will have to go through hell again...... I think this kind of mistake happened to you one time and everyone scolded you so now you just wanna scold somone for there mistake.
Just my thought
Thats a pretty crappy thing to say, diggy. You want the snake to suffer more because of a mistake made by the owner? I hope your not as heartless when it comes to your own animals.
Originally posted by hhw
Prekilled should be everyone's first choice. However, I am totally against whacking a rodent through blunt force. There are proven studies that using carbon dioxide to kill rodents is humane. However, I have yet to see a proven study that whacking a rodent is more humane than having it constricted by a snake. Just because it's quicker doesn't necessarily mean it's more humane. Not to mention, there's always the chance that blunt trauma does not kill the rodent immediately, in which case it will be in SEVERE pain for more than an instant.
I usually prefer to feed prekilled as well, but will freeze when I get an overflow of rodents. People always make the arguement that parasites are a serious risk, when in fact the parasites that are commonly found in rodents are host-specific, and will not be able to attach to the reptile and set up camp.
I personally employ the wacking method for any of the larger rodents (I use cervical dislocation or brain destruction for the smaller ones). I always hit them three times consecutively hard and fast (none of that checking to see if it's dead) in the event I do miss a hit. I believe definitely it is more humane. Anything that is meant to be instantaneous is automatically more humane than something that can take minutes. How many rats do youhear screaming while they are contricted versus those that scream when they are wacked? I've killed zillions of rodents and never heard a single sound. Additionally, even if they just get seriously messed up on the blow... they likely will not be suffering. I know from several accidents I have had in the past, when something hits you so fast, you don't even know or feel the pain. Your body has the amazing ability to instantaneously send out chemicals to act on defense at the moment of serious trauma. Your pain receptors don't even have a chance to react.
Originally posted by mykee
I've fed well over 1500 live rats and not ONCE have I had an issue that required my intervention. Go ahead, "you're putting your animals life in danger", "Have you tried everything else before resorting to live?" or the less tactful, "Are you just an idiot?". If you're going to feed live, you have to be responsible about it: 1. If you're snake doesn't take the meal in under an hour, you're looking for trouble if you leave the food item in there. 2. Supervise, supervise, supervise. It's funny to see people who own 50 corns and garters saying there is NO REASON to feed live.
Feeding live definitely has it's place in feeding captive reptiles, but all efforts *should* be made to have them switched to dead. I've also worked with and had/have in my own collection, animals that would only take live, and I have had instances where I needed to intervene, whether something superficial as nails scratching furiously, or more severe as a bite. If you cannot properly supervise live feedings, then they *shouldn't* be done, but many breeders seem to forget or ignore the fact that animals are also living creatures whose lives have been entrusted with us, rather than just simple commodities.
Originally posted by Linds
Feeding live definitely has it's place in feeding captive reptiles, but all efforts *should* be made to have them switched to dead. I've also worked with and had/have in my own collection, animals that would only take live, and I have had instances where I needed to intervene, whether something superficial as nails scratching furiously, or more severe as a bite. If you cannot properly supervise live feedings, then they *shouldn't* be done, but many breeders seem to forget or ignore the fact that animals are also living creatures whose lives have been entrusted with us, rather than just simple commodities.
Wow,
Excellent post :D
Jeff_Favelle
10-05-04, 11:26 AM
If you go with pre-killed exclusively, have a healthy dose of panacur available to de-worm your snakes every year. LOL!
Ken, if you choose to jump into the line of fire regarding my last post, feel free, however, most of it was not even directed at you.
Instead of trying to 'solve the injustices' of snakes with your loud and often rude responses, let it go. (something that I have not yet learned to do, shown by the very fact that I went against my better judgement by responding to this originally interesting thread). You and I will never agree on feeding techniques, but there really is no need to go G.I. Joe over it. Relax. Regardless of what is said on these Forums, I like you, I respect the fact that you sometimes get so passionate about "debating" a topic, that it clouds your better judgement. I do the same occasionally, but make no qualms about it, I disagree with the way you are trying to get your point across. You're not going to change the world. Period. People make mistakes and the 'rules' of snakes are not as black and white as you wish they were.
Little story, when I first got into snakes a few years ago, I had a snake on order from a big ball breeder, and a week or so before it shipped, I asked what it was eating. He mentioned that it was eating live rats. I stated my disgust with this practice and almost cancelled my order on the spot. I've grown up since. As you get more experienced, there are things you figure out, that are contrary to popular opinion: 1. Ball pythons CANNOT take adult mice right out of the egg. FACT. 2. 1500g is the smallest a female BP can be to successfully breed. WRONG. 3. Feed your adult ball no more often than once every 7-10 days. WRONG. 4. Only feed f/t or f/k. WRONG. 5. Adult balls need underbed rubbermaids to be comfortable and breed properly. WRONG. You live, you learn. You adapt to your balls, and stop being so militaristic concerning them. Be content in the fact that you are taking the best possible care of YOUR animals and don't worry about what other people are doing.
Invictus
10-05-04, 01:49 PM
Good points. I'm through getting into "G.I. Joe" mode anyway. You're right, it's not the way to get my point across.
Jeff_Favelle
10-05-04, 07:08 PM
Great post Mykee!
1. Ball pythons CANNOT take adult mice right out of the egg. FACT.
But are you sure about that? Maybe I should video tape it next year for proof, because I have 27 baby Ball Pythons that would have proved that statement wrong. The others were on rat crawlers for their first meals. Not all baby Balls are born big enough, but to say that ALL aren't, is also incorrect.
Originally posted by Diggy415
Yep i feed FT and fed live but i WATCHED ppl like you probably own pittbulls or rotts and make the breed bad as well, this makes me sick and not afraid to say so, there is a saying, "idiots shouldn't be allowed to breed" should of put your snake down hope it gets infected and you go through hell like it did, hope hell for you never ends.
Wow. I am assuming you just didn’t read through the rest of the post before making that statement… hope you realize that I am doing everything that I can to help save the snake and ease its pain (with medication). I did not intend for this to have happen in the first place.
Originally posted by Diggy415
i WATCHED ppl like you probably own pittbulls or rotts and make the breed bad as well
No I do not own a dog of any sort. I am not sure where you are getting at comparing me to a “pittbulls or rotts” owner. I had thought I was being a good owner by feeding the snake regularly, supplying it with water at all times and keeping it warm. The snake seemed healthy and happy, showed no aggression or fear what so ever when I had handled it. I just had absolutely no ideal what so ever that it was possible for this to have even happen! When I saw the snake the morning of when this had all happened it took me several seconds to figure out how the snake obtain its injury. I couldn’t even comprehend that the rat was even capable of chewing through the snake’s skin! I feel incredibly bad for letting this happen, but I feel as though I can make it up to the snake by getting it through all of this and allowing it to live great life for many years to come.
Originally posted by Diggy415
hope it gets infected
That pretty F***** UP! I hope you didn't mean that.
capsicum
10-05-04, 07:57 PM
Hexis, I think you are doing great in seeking vet attention and advice from peers :)
A hard lesson learned, but it's over and done with now. Hope your snake does get better very soon :)
Take care ;)
TK
Artemis
10-06-04, 12:09 AM
Holy crap. I cant believe how crazy this thread became!
BoidKeeper
10-06-04, 04:53 AM
Of you can't say anythin nice than don't say anything at all. You can be critical with out being sarcastic or out right nasty. I'm talking about wishing harm on his snake. If coments like that keep up this thread will be closed. So there it is, no flaming or we'll close the thread.
This thread has a lot of educational potential so let's not let it get out of hand.
Cheers,
Trevor
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