View Full Version : Pit Bulls, something to ponder
Something to ponder in the debate over whether Pit Bulls should be banned.
“They are not large dogs, but they have an enormous power-to-weight ratio. Their jaw strength is far greater than any other dog.
A Rottweiler will exert 800 pounds-per-square-inch jaw pressure and a Bull Terrier will exert 1200psi. A Pit Bull will exert more than 2000 psi.
You can have savage Labradors and savage Chihuahuas, but none of them has the potential to maim & kill that a pit bull does.
42% of all dog related deaths in the US are from Pit Bulls - & they constitute 1% of all dogs. 70% of those deaths were children. “
It’s nice to think, that in an ideal world everyone would train their dogs properly , and act responsibly when selling the animals they have bred. Unfortunately this doesn’t happen in the real world. Too often Pit Bulls end up in the wrong hands and that’s when the problems start to occur.
So what do we do? Regulating the sale of animals to qualified candidates would be the ideal solution, but in reality, who’s going to enforce such a program. Government at all levels is overwhelmed this days and I can’t see the political will to set aside the money and resources that such an act would entail.
Everyone always says that the key to alleviating the problem is to educate the public, but once again who pays for this and maintains it. It’s just not going to happen. And education even with the best intentions has never really solved anything. Look at the AIDS epedemic. We’ve been educating people for years about the potential dangers and it hasn’t made a huge difference. And what about gun education? It doesn’t work in the states and the only reason we’ve managed to avoid the same trap is that we ban handguns and assault weapons.
Pit Bulls are beautiful animals. But the potential for abuse is too high. People will never modify their ways enough to make a real difference. Most things in life, when used properly, are harmless. Handguns if correctly maintained and used, cause no problems. But the potential for abuse is too high so we ban them. I think the same can be said for Pit Bulls. In the right hands and in the right environment, they are fantastic animals. The problem is they don’t end up in the right hands often enough. Since that’s the case, an outright ban is the only solution.
Exttremely well put...
I cant agree with you more.
Originally posted by RFB
Something to ponder in the debate over whether Pit Bulls should be banned.
“They are not large dogs, but they have an enormous power-to-weight ratio. Their jaw strength is far greater than any other dog.
A Rottweiler will exert 800 pounds-per-square-inch jaw pressure and a Bull Terrier will exert 1200psi. A Pit Bull will exert more than 2000 psi.
You can have savage Labradors and savage Chihuahuas, but none of them has the potential to maim & kill that a pit bull does.
Where did you get your facts? Here is a statement that goes against what you said.
MYTH: American Pit Bull Terriers have 1600 P.S.I. in jaw pressure.
FACT: Dr. 1. Lehr Brisbin of the University of Georgia states, "To the best of our knowledge, there are no published scientific studies that would allow any meaningful comparison to be made of the biting power of various breeds of dogs. There are, moreover, compelling technical reasons why such data describing biting power in terms of "pounds per square inch" can never be collected in a meaningful way. All figures describing biting power in such terms can be traced to either unfounded rumor or, in some cases, to newspaper articles with no foundation in factual data." Need more be said?
As far as your bite statistics, I question them also.
Your post is good (although I also find the jaw power questionable but maybe true) but be careful what you want done to another persons hobby, when your own hobby is just as dangerous in some people's eyes, and they want it removed from society.
There is the same amount of bad press, and people looking to ban snakes in North America as their are for pit bans, if not more. When you allow a group to successfully take a species away they feel is harmful, it's only a matter of time before their same points and principles and tactics are used against snakes.
Marisa
I'm with syco, I'd really like to know where you obtained your information and statistics from.
Kate
The reference for death statistics is available in a paper submitted by the CDC(center for desease control) entitled
"Breeds iof Dogs involved in Fatal Attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998"
by Jeffrey J. Sacks, MD, MPH; Leslie Sinclair, DVM; Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM; Randall Lockwood PhD.
Bite pressure statistics I can't find right now but I will cite the reference as soon as I have it.
I don't have a problem questioning anyones hobby when I believe it to be dangerous. As far as Herps go, theres an awful lot that could be improved there as well and if we don't do it ourselves it will be done for us.
Artemis
10-03-04, 10:43 AM
Oh good grief.
Pit bulls have the power to kill people, sure, and so do lots of other animals, both kept domestically and wild, that are all over north america right this very second.
Once they are "banned" what exactly shall we do with them? Shoot them on sight until the species is extinct? Keep them in zoos? Its ridiculous to think of banning an animal. Its an animal for petes sake. I dont particularly care if people want to keep poisonous snakes, pit bulls, grizzly bears, or whatever.
People keep pit bulls, and some of them attack and occassionaly fewer still will kill a person. This is true of lots of other breeds of dogs, also, only they dont get as much media attention, simply because they ARENT pit bulls.
Simple fact is, whatever your stance on pit bulls is, they exist, and whether that is in the wild or domestically, there isnt crap you can do about it.
Personally, Id rather people keep them domestically. Then at least some of them will be be spayed and neutured to provent exponential reproduction, and in my mind they will be more friendly to humans, if they are kept with love and discipline instead of abuse.
Horses seriously injure, and sometimes kill people too, guess we should ban them next. Oh and don't forget Edwins post about the hamster..... ban em all. Pets are all dangerous disease carrying death threats.... we should ban pet keeping...
I gotta call BS on this whole silly debate. And the other equally silly debate with 100 posts in it. Pit bulls EXIST people, deal with it. Id rather have them be around people more than not, and since I dont believe its ethical to wipe ANY species off the planet, Id rather see them kept as pets than running wild.
Marisa is right, also (besides being a genius ;) ) and if you live in constant fear of a pit attack or something, which really is kinda silly, then for your own peace of mind, go get a firearm, before they are banned, too. Anyone else think this is all ludicrous?
Artemis
Banning prevents ownership in the area the law applies to. A grandfather clause or accomodations for existing animals would of course have to be made. I do have a problem with people keeping poisonous snakes, grizzly bears, or whatever in my neighborhood.
Am I afraid of Pit Bulls? depends on the circumstance. But I think you're hiding your head in the sand if you think that they can't be legislated out of existance. Look at all the laws already enacted that ban certain kinds of animals.
On a side note, have you ever seen anyone attacked by a Pit Bull? Have you ever seen the kind of damage it can do? You wouldn't be quite so blase if you had. I stand by what I said, I think they should be banned
O.k. like someone brought up this before....each year horses kill as many or more people than dogs do.
Why are they not recieving the same attention? Why are they legal?
Marisa
BoAddict
10-03-04, 11:12 AM
every pit bull i have ever come across has been as nice as all can be , 1 outta all the pits i knew didnt have any problems with any other animals and this 1 just went nuts for squirells.
to say that you disagree with people keeping poisonous snakes in your neighborhood is no different than your neighbor saying that they dont like you keeping whatever you keep.
ALL ANIMALS HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO BE DANGEROUS
Mike
Deaths from horses, when they occur, are to people that are VOLUNTARILY engaged in doing something that they enjoy. If Pit Bulls only killed their owners I'd have no problem with them. Pit Bulls account for a disproportionately, large portion of attacks on humans. And the people killed by them aren’t engaged in such pastoral pursuits as riding or grooming.
As far as poisonous snakes in my neighborhood, well as far as I know that’s illegal. Should it be? That’s another discussion entirely.
Cruciform
10-03-04, 11:44 AM
I don't like the idea of banning animals, especially since virtually all mine are banned in this city (but I have a legal ace up my sleeve if it ever becomes an issue).
The problem is with the public. We can say regulate or educate, yet the average person is lazy about these things. How many people own dogs? How many are as attentive to their real physical and psychological needs as the small pockets of communities on the web that parallel our own community. Very few I would imagine.
There is no simple solution to this because people don't take responsibility for their actions, and the courts have made it easier and easier to point fingers and have blamed assigned based on how much money you're willing to pay for legal representation.
I support legislation that doesn't ban the animals in any way, but treats the animal as an extension of the owner. If your dog/snake/etc. injures someone, then you should be prosecuted for assult, attempted murder, etc. depending on the severity of the injuries and circumstance.
If one of my snakes were actually big enough to hurt someone, and managed to do so because of my own negligence, I would expect to be charged.
Though if someone breaks into my house and is killed by an animal, tough luck for them.
Just some more Myths about Pit Bulls that soo many tend to believe cause the Media says they're true.. I mean, since the Media claims them true, they must be, right??
Don't Pit Bulls have LOCKING JAWS?
No. A pit bull's ability to "lock on" with it's jaws is one WHOPPER of a myth that refuses to let go! The jaws of a pit bull are built just as any other dog's jaw. There's no 'enzyme', no special mechanism that would make a pitbull's jaws 'lock'. They're DOGS, not alligators! What a pit bull does have is strength, tenacity, and determination. When he grasps something he wants to hang onto, his willpower is the glue.
Will a pit bull that shows aggression towards other animals go after PEOPLE NEXT?
No. Aggression towards other animals and human aggression are two totally different things. We've heard this frightened quote, "He went after a dog (or cat) and our kids might be next!". This is one big MONSTER of a myth that has generated a host of damaging anti-pit bull hysteria. It is perfectly 'normal' for a pit bull to be wonderfully affectionate and friendly with people, while at the same time not 100% trustworthy around other dogs. Like any breed of dog that we see in family homes today, a properly raised, well socialized, responsibly owned pit bull should never be human aggressive. Pit bulls that do show aggressive behavior towards humans are not typical of the breed and should be humanely euthanized.
Aren't Pit Bulls MEAN and VICIOUS?
No more vicious than golden retrievers, beagles or other popular dogs! In a recent study of 122 dog breeds by the American Temperament Testing Society (ATT), pit bulls achieved a passing rate of 83.9%. That's as good or better than beagles ... 78.2%, and golden retrievers ... 83.2%. These stats are from, http://www.atts.org/
For other Pit Bull myths, check out MONSTER MYTHS (http://www.badrap.org/rescue/myths.cfm)
-Matt
Banning does not stop or fix anything, I will bet most of the people on this sight and in the reptile community are in violation of at least some sort of law or bylaw.
I have to question the stats provided because i see more pit bulls being walked on leashes around the city then any other breed of dog. So i would have to believe that 1% of all breeds is incorrect, But then again there are hundreds of breeds of dogs out there, so i guess it depends on how you look at it. Also your reference is 6 years old, and the popularity of pits have grown alot in the last 6 years. I also believe that many times studies are conducted by bias people. I could do a study on pit bulls as well and probably find very different resault then the one you pointed out.
I have kept pit bulls for many years, and I believe that they are one of the most intellegent breeds out there and they have been much friendlier then my lab or any other dog we have kept.
annieb_mice
10-03-04, 12:23 PM
Just wanted to point something out here...
There are a LOT of people who haven't the faintest idea what a pit bull looks like. One of my friends was walking her pittie in a park and several children came up and started playing with her dog (who quite enjoyed the attention.) The mother came up and complimented my friend on such a well-behaved dog and what a wonderful dog this was around children.... then she asked what kind of dog it was. Once my friend said it was a pit bull the woman was shocked and said she thought all pit bulls were vicious killers. This woman had NO idea what a pit bull looked like.
How many times have you heard about a "pit bull" attack on the news, only to see the dog and realize it was NOT a pit bull... and likely didn't have any pittie in it? I can think of at LEAST three times on the local news here where they have mistakenly called a "vicious" dog a pit bull or rottie... when their error was pointed out, they never apologized but simply changed the wording to "a vicious dog" but the general public doesn't hear the change... they heard pit bull or rottweiler first... and so the bad reputation continues.
The FACT is that ALL dogs have the capability of killing a human. (Does anyone remember the dachhund who tore a hole in a playpen and dragged the baby out and killed it?)
There are MANY dog bites that happen EVERYDAY, the majority of these bites are never reported.
If any of you are history buffs, you might remember the pit bull as being on the posters representing the US in WWII. Or the Buster Brown dog... or the dog from Our Gang... or "His Master's Voice" Victrola... and the list goes on.
Here is a link to pitbull myths... which include the jaw strength, aggression towards humans, and so on.
http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html
There are many other webpages which describe the temperament of the pit bull and also give information on this particular breed of dog.
The fact is that pit bulls are used in MANY different ways... including service dogs (working with handicapped), search and rescue, police service, drug and bomb dogs, ect. There were pit bulls doing search and rescue in the 9/11 attack.
Before you take a stance saying that pit bulls are all aggressive and should all be banned... please do some research and actually MEET these incredible dogs!
One last comment... these dogs are NOT suitable for EVERYONE. These are very social dogs who love interacting with their family. When raised in a loving family, these are one of the best family dogs you can find. However, like many other animals, INCLUDING reptiles, they often fall into the hands of people who care only about using them as a "status" symbol.
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~
Cruciform
10-03-04, 12:27 PM
Something I haven't seen anyone mention yet:
Does anyone know a "responsible" owner who has had their dog (or any animal, actually) attack someone?
Typically the news paints the owners as irresponsible people who let their dogs run wild. As someone who worked at a newspaper, I've seen sensationalistic claims like that added to all kinds of stories in order to give them more readership appeal.
How would the arguments go if it was determined that in most cases, the owners WERE responsible, and the paper fudged the truth?
And what would you do if your dog was involved in an incident where another person or animal was injured, despite the precautions you took?
Not judging here, posing questions as devil's advocate.
RFB, I just found the article you quoted your stats from at the CDC web site. I must say that was very creative reading between the lines and careful omitions of some key info on your part.
The study states that 25 different breeds of dogs were responsible for the 300 fatal attacks that occured from 1979-1998. You said pit bulls were responsible for half of those attacks, the report actually states that "pit bull-type dogs" and rottweilers were involved in half of the deaths for wich the breed was actually known. Pit bull-type dogs wow that narrows it down to what 12-20 different types of dogs. The report goes on to say two thirds of all attacks involved a single dog and more than half of those involved dogs that was unrestrained on their owners property. Hmmm maybe people should learn to stay off other people's property.
And also I'm just curious why you didn't quote anything from the other two reports on fatal dog attacks from that same site, could it be because pit bulls are not mentioned in either one.
By the way we're still waiting to hear where you got your jaw pressure stats from.
Cruciform
10-03-04, 12:55 PM
I don't know where the stats on jaw pressure come from, but I've seen it repeated in a documentary on Hyenas.
According to the researchers the hyenas have a bite strength of 1800 psi, which can crack open the bones of a water buffalo so they can get at the marrow. They compared it to pit bulls at 2000 psi, and a couple of other domestic breeds of dogs.
But how they got the dogs jaw strength I don't know. For the hyenas all they needed to do was test the amount of pressure needed to crush the buffalo bones.
"Pit Bulls have more jaw strength per square inch (psi) than any other breed."
This is pure speculation, as there is no reliable way to test psi jaw pressure. In testing, many variables come into play (what is driving the dog to bite, how motivated is the dog, etc ), and it also has a lot to do with the individual dog, itself. The results vary greatly. "Dogs that are aggressive towards other animals are automatically aggressive towards people." Human aggression in dogs is entirely different than aggression directed at other animals. Aggression towards animals is a natural trait of the breed (as it is in many terrier breeds, among others). Historically, humans were always in the pit, handling fighting dogs closely, while the animals were in full fight drive. A dog that was a danger to people and prone to biting was not feasible, and therefore carefully selected against.
This was taken from GripDog (http://www.gripdog.com/pages/myths.htm), there's a few other Myths on there that you might find interesting..
-Matt
People kill people, people brutally hurt and attack. I'm calling for an outright ban on people in North America....It's our only solution.........who's with me?:D
The sites and quotes cited in support of pit bulls are hardly credible. They are mostly by people who have a stake in the breed. You can ignore the reference I made to bite strength as I cannot find the reference i got that from. However the CDC paper regarding deaths in the US is highly credible. The CDC is one of the most respected scientific institutions in the world and if anything errs on the side of caution when publishing anything.
As for meeting these dogs, I have, believe me I have. Some are well behaved and some are extremely aggressive. You guys are starting to sound like the National Rifle Association in the States. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" Well if there less handguns available the number of deaths would surely go down. The same can be said for Pit Bulls.
You can rant against the species being banned all you want to, but the reality of the situation is that more and more municipalities are taking just that action. And you can always count on another Pit Bull related fatality making the news and restoking the fires. As long as irresponsible owners are alowed to own them, that will be the case. And there is nothing we as a society are willing to do to make sure that only people with the prerequisite knowledge get to own these dogs. But as a society the majority of us are perfectly willing to ban them and thats whats happening.
The sites and quotes cited against pit bulls are hardly credible, they are mostly by ignorant/uneducated people. LOL
Really. You consider the Center for Desease Control in Atlanta Georgia as run by ignorant and uneducated people? Well thats interesting to say the least. It was fun but i think I've said everything I want to on this subject.
I leave you with this. I've seen up close and personal what a Pit Bull attack can do. While the persons life wasn't taken, they were never the same afterwords and had to undergo multiple surgeries over the next couple of years to repair the disfigurement. And even when they were done the scars still showed very obviously. If it were up to me, I'd ban Pits in a second.
Fortunately more and more municipalities have taken that step and I don't think it's a tide that will soon turn. As I said rant all you want, it's already happening.
Tim and Julie B
10-03-04, 04:47 PM
Unfortunately bite records and other various animal related statistics are never accurate. There are NO complete studies on attacks either in the US or in Canada. In order for those records to be viable, one would have to study every breed, in every city in both countries, and so on and so forth. Gathering information from a select group does nothing to sway me. I've owned 3 staffies (I wish people would stop saying "pit bull"-the breeds in mention DO NOT pit fight anymore so the term is invalid in this day and age!) and they were far better dogs than most any others I've met, and I grew up around dozens of dogs both working and pet related.
People just seem to want to control more and more of what other people do. Yes dogs bite. Yes, bigger dogs do more damage. The dogs that bite most often ARE NOT staffies, rottis or dobies, they ARE labs, lab crosses and golden retrievers. Yes, I researched those facts :D anyone can by going to yahoo. Keep in mind here, that if you agree to restrict what people can/cannot keep in their homes and on their property then be prepared to have the things you love taken away eventually too. I am tired of people working against one another, instead of trying to find viable solutions. You can't tell me that the "government" is too bogged down with their own bullcrap to take the time to create viable laws in respect to owning "dangerous"(I laugh as I type) animals. Maybe we should ban all birds, both domestic and those raised for food. I sure don't want to run any risk of getting that nasty avian flu, possibly dying from it. While we're at it lets also ban all venomous reptiles and arachnids since they have the potential to fall into the wrong hands becoming "weapons" to our unknowing selves. Laugh if you like, but I have heard dogs, cats, and other animals referred to as "weapons".
Lets all get our heads out of our rears and take a long, thought prevoking look at what is really going on. We are allowing our rights to be ripped out of our tax paying fingers and are basically bending over to do it. I would never in a million years ask anyone to give up what they love because "I" don't agree.
When people commit crimes they go to jail, or in some states face the death penalty. If an animal, any animal, commits a malicious act then it should be punished. I don't know about punishing the owner, unless it is through their direct neglegeance that the act takes places, but the animal should be put down.
My nickle in the bucket......:D:D:D
Julie
*edit*
Just because something "bad" happens to someone that doesn't mean we should close the door on the cause, erase it from existance, just to never have it happen again. I can bet that if the vast majority of people saw 3 house cats rip apart a kid they would never think to ban them. (seen that first hand, and yet I still choose to own 2 of these "beasts") I also saw 2 poodles pin down a 6 year old and rip his hair out, scalp, blood and all. How many of you saying that pitties should be banned would ban poodles also? Just a tidbit of thought for you........
homeskillet_96
10-03-04, 05:03 PM
I didn't even bother to read all the post but in my opinion APBT's make great pets if the owners are willing to spend time with them. They need the attention of their owners unlike other breads. One major misconception about pit bulls is their aggressiveness towards people. They are not bread for that, they are bread for dog to dog aggressiveness.
I said MOSTLY just as you did. :)
Pit bulls and other dogs are Just one of billions of things on this planet that take lives and mutilate people every year. If we take them all away from us then we will be left with nothing but a boreing wasted life in a protective bubble.
I say just enforce spaying and nutering on all pit owners. I have a rottweiller that was nutered and is a complete suck now. Iam sure he would have been far more aggressive if he hadn't been nutered.
Tim and Julie B
10-03-04, 05:12 PM
American Staffordshire, or Staffordshire Terriers is the correct terminology :D:D:D:D:D:D:D (AST, ST) Side note, while researching the minute scraps of "information" available on line in regards to dog attacks, most (I do believe around the 80% mark) were against people they knew, while playing or eating. These were circumstances where the contact between man and pet was "obviously" intentional or as some like to put it, VOLUNTARY. Just like the whole horsey thing.....
Julie
And again, aggressiveness is NOT a genetic trait. It CANNOT be bred into anything..
Tim and Julie B
10-03-04, 05:16 PM
In reality, people should be banned from having children. We create killers every day. (just one more bit of crap to add to the cesspool)
annieb_mice
10-03-04, 05:48 PM
I just wanted to point out that there are cases where SNAKES have been used as "weapons" in crimes. There are several cases where criminals "threatened" people (mostly convenience store cashiers) to rob them. After they get the money... in some cases they released the snake in a nearby park.
ANYTHING can be used as a weapon.
take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~
I've said for years that people should have to get a permit in order to have children, but people just laugh when I say it.
What I don't understand is people are in an uproar to have all pitts destroyed because of the small percentage that do attack, but I don't see anyone trying to get the death penalty reinstated for the sake of public safety. Realistically you are more likely to be hurt or killed by a repeat offender than by a dog.
People are not in an uproar to destroy all pitts because of the number of attacks. It's because of the seriousness of the attacks. You can argue the validity of the bite pressure numbers all you want, but are you going to tell me that pitbull attacks are no worse than beagles or labs? You'd have to go some to convince me.
I'm not for banning, but if they do get banned it will be because of that. I've heard that coral snakes are very reluctant to bite. Much more so than..say...a texas ratsnake. Does that mean I should be allowed to have one in the park off-leash? He's very good with kids...mine hold him everyday.
Artemis
10-03-04, 07:10 PM
RWG, its not because of the seriousness of the attacks, its because of the MEDIA CIRCUS surrounding the attacks.
Artemis, BS! if these bites were simple little bites and not maulings I highly doubt it would be as televised as it is. You can't possibly blame media for pitbulls having a bad name.
The good news is Ontario (if I get this correctly) is looking at rougher punishments for owners who have these dogs and not a banning although I am sure they are discussing that as well.
But tougher laws are needed. Once your devil Pit Bulls are off the streets, the first German Shepherd to bite a person will be the downfall of that breed too. Because all dogs bite, and the public can't live long without someone or someTHING to be afraid of.
In any case, it seems the population, even here on ssnakess.com is pretty half and half. I hope a resolution we can all agree on happens, although I doubt it.
Marisa
2' Leashes and Muzzles look to be what they're implementing..
sassmuffin
10-04-04, 12:19 AM
I am just too damned lazy and tired to read all the responses to this post, and its probably already been said but I'll point it out anyhow...
As aforementioned, every animal has to potential to be dangerous, and pose potentially lethal threats to humans and other living creatures....HOWEVER, the majority of animals will not attack unless provoked/will not attack without some form of semi-tangible reason. At least to my knowledge, I have never seen nor heard of any creature attacking a human or other animal with dangerous force for NO REASON AT ALL. If something feels threatened somehow, its probably going to react, therefore it's my belief that many of these 'pit bull incidents' were probably somehow the fault of the victim.
Just felt if should be pointed out if it hadn't been already, or mentioned again if it has.
As for my overall opinion on the topic, I think it would be just plain sad if pit bulls became extinct due to a ban, and just sad if they were completely outlawed. However, both sides have good arguments, and as I know no pit bulls myself and have never had or not had problems with them, I don't really have a strong opinion on the topic. Shrugs.
Blaaaaaaaaah. Stupid debates where there is just no winning. Make me frustrated, especially as the night drags on. Heh.
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.