Puppies and Dog Breeding

[Vengeance]

Since dogs have been such a popular topic of conversation, I thought I should throw my opinion into the mix.

I've been watching these threads about people with new puppies they've bred, pit bull breeders, and just anyone with a new puppy from a breeder and I really have to say that I'm disgusted by all of it. There is such a huge problem with the dog population in North America right now that there is no excuse for ANYONE to be getting a puppy from a breeder or breeding dogs. No excuse what so ever. Now I'm sure a bunch of you are going to be up in arms saying, well I breed for quality or I only deal in pure breeds, or I only breed for temperament, or the breeder I got my puppy from is reputable. But unless you can come up with a solution to the Thousands of dogs that die needlessly everyday due to overpopulation, I don't care how pure bred your dog is, there are mutts AND purebreds (even championship ones) in the pound that need homes and don’t deserve to die so you can have another pure bred whatever.

Now of course on the other side of the argument you can say there are allot of rescues related to herps, and the over population of retics and Ball pythons and burm's. But I don't have anything bad to say about them. Reason being is this, if you go to www.petfinder.com, one of the major websites responsible for placing thousands of abandoned animals and you do a search for Ontario, they have only 47 active cases of reptile rescue currently for snakes. Only about 20 active cases for Lizards and 102 active cases for Iguanas (Putting this in anyway even though I don't agree with Iguana breeding because of the overpopulation problem), and also this search is stretching into USA so it covers a broader region. That makes only 169 active cases, including Iguanas, in all of Ontario and surrounding provinces and states(the search turns up animals in BC and Michigan). If you do a search for dog, there are currently 450 active cases of dogs that need homes just in Ontario, now to me that is a staggering difference.

So the next time your thinking about breeding your dog, or getting that puppy from a backyard breeder, think of the all of the active cases on www.petfinder.com who all need a good home and instead of contributing to the problem by justifying the surplus of dogs in North America by purchasing one, adopt one instead.

I have two beagles, one came from the Toronto Humane Society and one from Kennel Inn in Newmarket. Myself and my girlfriend are fostering the dog that came from kennel in, getting him back in shape so that he may be adopted out. They are both great loving, and gentle dogs and I'll be sad to see Toby go when we adopt him out but we are trying to do our part to help this horrible problem. So again instead of breeding and buying, adopt.

[reptiguy420]

and thats YOUR opinion....nice thought but id much rather have a pure bred rather than some mangy whatever that was found on the streets with who knows what wrong with it.

[Matt_K]

Most of the animals on Pet Finder are NOT, dirty old dogs that were found on the street.. Most of them are animals that people can no longer care for due to many different reasons.. Whether it be an elderly couple giving up their dog, people leaving the country or accidental puppies....

Here's my girl that I got from www.petfinder.com ..

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/473100_1765-med.jpg

[reptiguy420]

all im saying is to each there own....take it any way you see fit.There may be nice dogs there but i rather know EXACTLY where mine have been who they come from and i want references simple as that.Matt that is a good looking pooch though congrats for taking in a stray;)

[capsicum]

I believe there are pros and cons to all methods of finding a pet, however it is the choice of each person :rolleyes:

Personally I would take a rescue first over a bought dog, however sometimes you can't find the right dog as a rescue. For example if somewhere in Ontario was a dog for adoption, I could not adopt it since I am way over in BC. Even if the personality, breed, age, etc were all perfect, I still won't go there to get it.

But anyways, it's the responsibility of pet owners to be sure that their animals are sexually altered, and not reproducing. I do believe in breeders though, as otherwise we would lose the strong blood lines of many breeds, and I wouldn't want to see that happen :(

TK

[Delirium]

If you want to adopt and are concerned about the type and temperment of a dog, go with a rescue as opposed to a pound. In almost all cases, the dogs are currently living in foster homes where that foster parent works with it, evaluates and then delineates that information down to the adopter. In fact, through this system, you are likely going to know what you are getting more so than in any other case with a pet. Even puppies on their first owner are unpredictable. With a rescue you generally have a solid history of the animal as well as a continued resource for assistance with the animal after the fact.

The aforementioned beagles. Toby, the foster, is the one in the back.

http://onelittlecoconut.com/images/pets/Sneaky%20and%20Toby/beagles1.jpg

Hardly what i'd describe as mangy, although Toby is in fact a Mutt. Sneaky, the one in front, is from what we can tell a purebred beagle (possibly bluetick).

Also, keep in mind that if you ever find an animal that is too far away for you to adopt, many rescues will arrange for transports to occur. If you can pay to bring them to you, fine. However, in many cases it can happen free of charge through a network of volunteers who will drive them a leg at a time up to your location. Veng and I have participated in one such transport ourselves. A very rewarding experience that we were happy to participate in.

Dee

[Vengeance]

reptiguy

But that's just it, it shouldn't be to each their own. The over population of dogs is more then a problem, its an epidemac. There are reputable rescues with full historys on almost all of their dogs. Instead of looking for the closest breeder it's much more benifical to look for the cloesest rescue. Not only are you helping the problem, but you can get exactly what your looking for at a cheaper price. There are so many diffrent avenues to take that using a breeder should be a last option instead of a first.

Capsicum

I understand that there are some rare blood lines that may need to be kept and would be a shame to lose. But at what cost are we keeping these rare bloodlines? Sure there is an exception to every rule but for every 1 rare bloodline there are thousands of others that are being exploited by the same trade. Backyard breeders and puppy mills selling these same animals with diffrent bloodlines. Now in a perfect world it would be great if we could identify which bloodlines needed to be kept going and allow them to continue to breed, but it's not. Everyone here is an animal lover in some way shape or form, can you honestly say that you would prefer to keep some bloodlines around at the cost of thousands of other dogs lives, and even then, the people buying these rare dogs, sometimes they still end up in pounds and shelters. At this point in time the only real solution is to stop breeding until the overpopulation has come under control. Breeding could never stop entirely of course but we need to get some sort of controll over the situation and the only way to do that is to make people aware of the problem

[Matt_K]

Originally posted by reptiguy420
Matt that is a good looking pooch though congrats for taking in a stray;)

Who said she was ever a stray???

She was brought to a Shelter cause her owners got divorced after the husband went to jail.. The wife was leaving the country and couldn't bring her with herself and the kids.. She'd been in a foster home for a couple months before I went and saw her.. She's been socialized and around other dogs and people her WHOLE life.. She never was and never will be a stray..

[reptiguy420]

exactly its the choice of each person and as i said a pound or whatever is definately not mine.So as i said to each their own.Great thing about america freedom of speech as well as choice, if you choose to be offended then so be it...but like i said just MY 2 cents plain and simple.It may be a wide spread problem and it sucks but its not my problem and im not going to take in any animals from a pound or puppy half way house thats all there is to it.No one on this site is going to change my mind about that.So as i said if you choose to take offense to this than thats YOUR choice, as it is my choice and my right to state my opinion

[capsicum]

Originally posted by Vengeance

Capsicum

I understand that there are some rare blood lines that may need to be kept and would be a shame to lose. But at what cost are we keeping these rare bloodlines? Sure there is an exception to every rule but for every 1 rare bloodline there are thousands of others that are being exploited by the same trade. Backyard breeders and puppy mills selling these same animals with diffrent bloodlines. Now in a perfect world it would be great if we could identify which bloodlines needed to be kept going and allow them to continue to breed, but it's not. Everyone here is an animal lover in some way shape or form, can you honestly say that you would prefer to keep some bloodlines around at the cost of thousands of other dogs lives, and even then, the people buying these rare dogs, sometimes they still end up in pounds and shelters. At this point in time the only real solution is to stop breeding until the overpopulation has come under control. Breeding could never stop entirely of course but we need to get some sort of controll over the situation and the only way to do that is to make people aware of the problem

No, I don't feel that a few lives are worth thousands of others. I have spent most of my adult life working with rescues, shelters, and abandonded animals.

All I am saying is that some breeders are doing great work with their chosen breed, and that should be acceptable.

I agree that backyard breeders (those not considering the needs and placement of each and every animal) and millers are not right, and they should not be allowed to breed their animals.

But I still stand but what I said, that pure breds need to be saved for the future of these animals.

As for rescue, I would deffinately be willing to help arrange a transport for the right animal (I have helped move smaller animals from one location to another in the past) :)

TK

[spidergecko]

Originally posted by reptiguy420
exactly its the choice of each person and as i said a pound or whatever is definately not mine.So as i said to each their own.Great thing about america freedom of speech as well as choice, if you choose to be offended then so be it...but like i said just MY 2 cents plain and simple.It may be a wide spread problem and it sucks but its not my problem and im not going to take in any animals from a pound or puppy half way house thats all there is to it.No one on this site is going to change my mind about that. So as i said if you choose to take offense to this than thats YOUR choice, as it is my choice and my right to state my opinion

Bingo to you!

Hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats end up euthanized every year because some people prefer a specific breed of animal rather than a mutt. But you're right. It's not your problem. In fact, the only ones with the problem are the ones that end up in the shelter.

No one needs to change your mind but I need to know one thing: what makes an inbred (purebred) animal more appealing than a mutt? Or is it just that you don't want an animal that has lived in someone else's home (maybe they smell or something) for an extended period of time? Rescues and shelters have puppies, too; virgin animals that don't smell like their previous keepers.

[Will]

I agree, but disagree...

Personally every dog I have had, have now or ever will own, is a rescue. I agree, I've been in the shelter and see how many great animals do need a home. I agree that there are too many dogs out there that need a home, but...

A lot of people choose to show, compete, etc -- you can't do alot of that stuff with a mixed breed. Who am I to say they should or shouldn't be allowed to do what they want...

Also, try to tell a breeder(any breeder) that the animal they choose to work with will no longer be allowed to breed. Any breeders here, imagine if someone showed up one day and told you all that stock you spent years putting together and raising could no longer be bred.

"Sorry, Game Over..." :mad:

I'd like to hear ONE reptile breeder here stand up and say they'd be cool with that...

Restriction is very rarely the correct solution to anything. Education is almost always better, but unfortunately it is usually the biggest obstacle...

[capsicum]

Originally posted by Will
I agree, but disagree...[snippage]
Restriction is very rarely the correct solution to anything. Education is almost always better, but unfortunately it is usually the biggest obstacle...

I agree Will, didn't quite think of it that way o>

TK

[leoncurrie]

Umm... what exactly is the point to this thread? Are you (Vengeance) just teling everyone your point of view on buying pure bred breeds? Or just complaining about the fact that everyone should share your point of view and buy animals from a shelter because the irresponsible owners allow there dogs to become pregnant and send the pups to shelters, ect... ?
IMO... I understand your frustration, however that does not give you the right to tell people what kind of animals they should be caring for.
I have both a mixed breed and a pure bred. I love them both dearly and equally.

[Linds]

Leon and Will made some excellent points.

We have both rescues and pure. For longer than I've been alive, my parents have shown, and occasionally bred, English Setters. While if you want just a companion, it is fine to have a rescue, but some people want more from their animals - showing and breeding is very much a hobby just like snakes are. It isn't the professional breeders that are the problem at hand, generally it is mainly backyard breeders (not all), so there is absolutely no need to persecute any and all people that breed animals. While in an ideal world all the dogs would be rescued and there woudln't be a problem, but there are too many irresponsible people out there contributing to the stray, abused, and abandoned population - just because this is happening is no reason those that have a passion for specific breeds need to give that up. It won't change anything, other than the loss of pureblood, papered, good blood ('bad blood' comes from a lot of unregulated breeding) animals.

[Vengeance]

Will

I guess I should rephrase my statment. Is the best solution to stop all breeding? No. There are good breeders, I understand that but even though they are good breeders they are still contributing to a major problem. So what's the solution? Well I doubt anyone will come up with one but we can allways play the what if game..... What if breeders had to take more responsiblity for the animals they sold? Instead of being able to pump out puppies left right and center, they had to nuter and spay each puppy before it could be sold. That would help and still allow them to work with their current stock. But your right restriction isn't the best way to go, education is, but it is much harder to get people to listen.

leoncurrie

Well last time I check leon this was a Discussion forum, I felt like discussing this issue. I'm not trying to push my views or tell people what to do, I'm expressing an opinion and hopefully at the same time educating a few people on this issue as well. It doesn't matter to me if its a pure bred dog or a mutt, the issue I bringing up is that there should be more responsiblity taken on the side of the breeders to help control the problem that we are seeing today.

Linds

The argument of blood lines and dog showing is a hard point to argue against because you do have a valid point. I can understand wanting to breed a specfic blood line to be used for show. But I'm sure these same people who are breeding for show are also turning around and still selling their animals to john q public. So where is the line between breeding for show and just another back yard breeder?

[silent_truth]

Though I hate to make this comparison because our (people's) perceptions of the two, differ greatly, it may put something in perspective (or it may be a waste of typing, but we'll see). If overpopulation is the problem, and the suggested answer is to adopt homeless animals instead of buying from a breeder, couldn't one make the same argument against people? I mean, compared to other species, we spread like a plague. There are many many children that are abandoned or face other circumstances which necessitates adoption, yet people are still free to give birth to their own children. We know that the world population could be somewhere between 8 to 10 billion in the not-so-distant future, so why are we still producing babies in such great numbers? There are probably many answers to this, but I will get back to the focus of this discussion.

I'll sum up my perspective this way. I have a dog that is a rescue and he has turned out to be the best dog and friend that I could ever have wished for. However, each breed has its own physical and behavioural traits. If both of these qualities do not appeal to a potential dog owner, why coerce them into adopting an animal which they don't believe suits them the best?

Advice that I always see posted on reptile forums in response to someone asking the question, "What should I buy?", is the answer, "Buy what you like the most". This advice will maximize chances that the owner will do as much as possible to make the proper accomodations and lifestyle for the animal(s).

I agree that there is a definite problem with the number of homeless animals and I also agree that great pets can be rescues, but who am I to say that someone else can't have the dog or cat they want because others decided to let their animals breed the populations out of control? That argument won't go very far, I can be sure of that.


-Adam

[Delirium]

Just a note to silent truth. I totally agree that each type of dog has differing personalities. The tragedy of it is that whatever your desired breed, mutt or purebred, age, gender etc. etc., I can guarantee you one can be found relatively easy through the rescue network. Of course some of the rarer breeds are luckier and don't land in pounds as much but given a little patience on your part, one i'm sure will turn up. So if [insert dog type here] is right for you, you can find it by adopting.

As to the comments about responsible breeding, i'm what one would call of a conservative mindset. I actually don't condone breeding of dogs in any form. I realise that there are more liberal minded people on this issue and that's fine, but personally, I see it that way. My thought is that the price for preservation of breed is entirely too high to justify it. However, given the epidemic nature of the problem, breed extinction is far from feasible at this point anyway. Would I accept a world filled entirely of mutts in exchange for the overpopulation problem to be solved? Yes, completely. Keeping in mind of course that all of what we call purebreeds today are just in fact mutts made many years ago (although some not that long). There are in fact only four official pure breed dogs in history if my memory serves me. All the ones we love today are just offshoots of those lines.

Finally, someone mentioned showing dogs as a hobby. Again, I have a very conservative mindset on this topic as well. I firmly believe that the existing policies of today's show world are archaic and contribute to today's problems as opposed to aiding them. The only benefit they provide is awareness of breed and even then awareness of what? That "fixed" animals are unaccepted? That mutilation in the form of cropping and docking is the way to go? Not on my watch. Until the day that they enter the modern world and realise that fixed animals can and should be accepted to show and that forcing animals into unnecessary and painful surgury to make their looks suit our preference is wrong, then I can't condone that environment. Long gone are the days when cropping, docking and unfixed animals served a real purpose. Now the only purpose these policies serve is our vanity.

Finally, someone mentioned reptile breeding as a comparison. I agree with Vengeance that there just isn't a comparison right now. From what we can see, there isn't a signficant overpopulation problem in our parts of the world when it comes to many reptiles. What there is, just can't compare in magnitude. So while I have always said that i'd be fine with breeding once the population of dogs was under control, I say that reptile breeding is fine now since there isn't currently a problem. Of course if ever the community let it get out of control so that 4.5 million snakes for example were dying in shelters in north america every year, then you can bet your bootie that my opinion on breeding would change for them too.

*throws two cents on the table*

Dee

[LISA127]

Originally posted by Delirium
Just a note to silent truth. I totally agree that each type of dog has differing personalities. The tragedy of it is that whatever your desired breed, mutt or purebred, age, gender etc. etc., I can guarantee you one can be found relatively easy through the rescue network. Of course some of the rarer breeds are luckier and don't land in pounds as much but given a little patience on your part, one i'm sure will turn up. So if [insert dog type here] is right for you, you can find it by adopting.

As to the comments about responsible breeding, i'm what one would call of a conservative mindset. I actually don't condone breeding of dogs in any form. I realise that there are more liberal minded people on this issue and that's fine, but personally, I see it that way. My thought is that the price for preservation of breed is entirely too high to justify it. However, given the epidemic nature of the problem, breed extinction is far from feasible at this point anyway. Would I accept a world filled entirely of mutts in exchange for the overpopulation problem to be solved? Yes, completely. Keeping in mind of course that all of what we call purebreeds today are just in fact mutts made many years ago (although some not that long). There are in fact only four official pure breed dogs in history if my memory serves me. All the ones we love today are just offshoots of those lines.

Finally, someone mentioned showing dogs as a hobby. Again, I have a very conservative mindset on this topic as well. I firmly believe that the existing policies of today's show world are archaic and contribute to today's problems as opposed to aiding them. The only benefit they provide is awareness of breed and even then awareness of what? That "fixed" animals are unaccepted? That mutilation in the form of cropping and docking is the way to go? Not on my watch. Until the day that they enter the modern world and realise that fixed animals can and should be accepted to show and that forcing animals into unnecessary and painful surgury to make their looks suit our preference is wrong, then I can't condone that environment. Long gone are the days when cropping, dogging and unfixed animals served a real purpose. Now the only purpose these policies serve is our vanity.

Finally, someone mentioned reptile breeding as a comparison. I agree with Vengeance that there just isn't a comparison right now. From what we can see, there isn't a signficant overpopulation problem in our parts of the world when it comes to many reptiles. What there is, just can't compare in magnitude. So while I have always said that i'd be fine with breeding once the population of dogs was under control, I say that reptile breeding is fine now since there isn't currently a problem. Of course if ever the community let it get out of control so that 4.5 million snakes for example were dying in shelters in north america every year, then you can bet your bootie that my opinion on breeding would change for them too.

*throws two cents on the table*

Dee

Well said. I absolutely agree with you.

Anyone who has spent anytime volunteering in shelters at all will most likely have a big change of heart. When everytime you get attached to a certain dog, he is killed. And the only reason is because he's too big, or too old, or not cute enough, etc. It's very, very sad. I will NEVER purchase a dog. Adoption is the only way to go.

[silent_truth]

Originally posted by LISA127
Well said. I absolutely agree with you.

Anyone who has spent anytime volunteering in shelters at all will most likely have a big change of heart. When everytime you get attached to a certain dog, he is killed. And the only reason is because he's too big, or too old, or not cute enough, etc. It's very, very sad. I will NEVER purchase a dog. Adoption is the only way to go.



But those factors stated are legitimate reasoning when considering spending significant time, money, resources and committing to an emotional bond with another creature. If the animal is too big, it won't work out in the household, if it's too old, then it may not be suited to a home with young children and if the potential owners do not find the animal "attractive", then how likely are they to stay committed to it? The fact of the matter is that Vengeance, Lisa, Delirium and others that share their viewpoints are right when they claim it's not fair to the animals in the shelter, but it's not fair to potential new owners to say "You HAVE to get your new pet that you're going to spend 10 to 20 years with from a shelter." If I'm the new owner, I will look at the shelters and seek out something I like, but if I don't find it, I have no problem looking elsewhere. To say that I can't do that, is simply ridiculous when it concerns that big of a commitment.


-Adam

[Siretsap]

the problem isn't with professional breeders. The over population problem comes from all the pet owners who don't invest to get the cat or dog fixed. Others will intentionally breed their cat or dog to "see" the birth of the babies and then end up brigning the babies in shelters cause they can't find homes for them.

Get your cat or dog neutered or fixed and the over population will drop considerably.

[leoncurrie]

Well I have both a pure bred and a rescue dog. The rescue dog is the family companion and the pure bred is a working/guard dog. I love them both dearly, however I do not feel that it is my fault that there are so many wonderful dogs/cats in shelters. My dogs will never end up in shelters. Instead of telling the average person to only get animals from shelters... concentrate your energy against the puppy mills and back yard breeders who would be the main source of the problem.

[marisa]

I have a purebred from a local "For Free" ad.

Lol. So I am on both sides of the fence :D

Marisa

[leoncurrie]

Originally posted by Vengeance
the issue I bringing up is that there should be more responsiblity taken on the side of the breeders to help control the problem that we are seeing today.


I highly disagree with this statement. I don't feel that you should be pointing fingers at breeders in such a manner as to accuse them of the overpopulation. People should not be discourgaged from purchasing from a reputable breeder but be sure that that is exactly what the breeder is "reputable". If breeders stop breeding their specific breeds, then what happens to these breeds of dogs? Answer: Those breeds would become extinct.

[Vengeance]

Originally posted by leoncurrie
I highly disagree with this statement. I don't feel that you should be pointing fingers at breeders in such a manner as to accuse them of the overpopulation. People should not be discourgaged from purchasing from a reputable breeder but be sure that that is exactly what the breeder is "reputable". If breeders stop breeding their specific breeds, then what happens to these breeds of dogs? Answer: Those breeds would become extinct.

Then whos responsiblity should it be, because even though you may not like to group them all togethor but Reputable breeders, backyard breeders and puppy mills are all doing the same thing Breeding. So my statment stands, weither a puppy mill, backyard breeder or breeding for show, the breeder needs to take more responsiblity over what they are doing.

[leoncurrie]

Originally posted by Vengeance
the breeder needs to take more responsiblity over what they are doing.

No, the people who let their dogs mate in the front yard and don't get their mutts neutered or spayed are the ones who need to take the responsibility for the overpopulation. The breeder who I purchased my purebreed animal from has a clause in the Purchase agreement that their dogs are not to be placed in a shelter for no reason whatsoever, therefore they would much rather that you return the animal to them instead of letting it run loose or dropping it off at a pound. Does that show enough responsibility for you?

[Vengeance]

Originally posted by leoncurrie
No, the people who let their dogs mate in the front yard and don't get their mutts neutered or spayed are the ones who need to take the responsibility for the overpopulation. The breeder who I purchased my purebreed animal from has a clause in the Purchase agreement that their dogs are not to be placed in a shelter for no reason whatsoever, therefore they would much rather that you return the animal to them instead of letting it run loose or dropping it off at a pound. Does that show enough responsibility for you?

It does.

[SDSnakes]

pure bred dogs are the only dogs i would buy

[Katt]

I'm pretty much a fence sitter myself. While dog and cat breeding disgust me b/c not only are there a lot of dogs and cats out there without homes, just the act of mammal copulation disgusts me (no funny comments please). I see a lot of people breeding dogs that shouldn't be bred, especially dogs that are rescues of all things!!!

That being said, we owned two rescue dogs. That was a terrible time. One killed my cave dwelling ratsnakes.

Our next dog will be PB from a breeder, and gotten as a pup. So we can socialize it and train it.

[LISA127]

Originally posted by silent_truth
But those factors stated are legitimate reasoning when considering spending significant time, money, resources and committing to an emotional bond with another creature. If the animal is too big, it won't work out in the household, if it's too old, then it may not be suited to a home with young children and if the potential owners do not find the animal "attractive", then how likely are they to stay committed to it? The fact of the matter is that Vengeance, Lisa, Delirium and others that share their viewpoints are right when they claim it's not fair to the animals in the shelter, but it's not fair to potential new owners to say "You HAVE to get your new pet that you're going to spend 10 to 20 years with from a shelter." If I'm the new owner, I will look at the shelters and seek out something I like, but if I don't find it, I have no problem looking elsewhere. To say that I can't do that, is simply ridiculous when it concerns that big of a commitment.


-Adam

If you are willing to take the time, you can find any type of dog you're looking for in either a shelter or a rescue group. You can always choose to rescue. Doesn't matter what you want in a dog, you can find it and give a homeless dog a home.

[jjaj02]

Ok. I am a breeder. I have been breeding pomeranians and chihuahuas for the last 5 years. PS. I don't cross them. It really p**ses me off when a person sits there and says "just adopt don't buy a purebred." To me it sounds like you want a pet and you are just too damn cheap to go buy one. Anyways, vengeance, I do not breed for show, but I do breed to produce wonderfully tempermented dogs for pet homes only. I also have quite a few dogs in agility. My main goal in my breeding is to breed pomeranians and chihuahuas with a heavier bone structure so it will somewhat eliminate breaking of their limbs. Pomeranians and chihuahuas breaking legs is extremely common because of their small bone structure. With a bigger bone structure they can become MORE of a family dog.

I am not CKC registered because of this simple fact. They allow inbreeding and think that it is ok. I understand that all purebred dogs are inbred, but now that their are so many of them you don't have to breed father to daughter anymore. So why say that that is ok?

I do have an extensive questionaire that every possible new puppy buyer must fill out. My questionaire is about 3 pages long. I also will drive and inspect the persons home to make sure their are no holes in the fence etc. I also educate the buyers. If they have never owned a small dog before, I will take one of mine over the the buyers house and teach them the do's and don'ts of having this type of dog, teach them how to teach the dog and so forth.

Also when I sell the puppies I do not get them spayed and neutered before I sell them. I tack on an extra $250 dollars and when the new owners get them fixed, they get $250 dollars back. Which totally covers the cost of the spay or neuter.

Also someone said that if they volunteered at a shelter they would have a change of heart about buying from a breeder. I worked in a shelter for 3 years and I breed dogs.

I also have a contract that must be signed before the dog leaves my property. One of the stipulations on their is that if they have to get rid of the dog for any reason that it MUST come back to me.

I totally think it is up to each individual to decide where they want to get their dog from and how much money they want to spend on it.

Some dogs are in "move in" condition and others are not. By "move in" condition, I mean being house trained.......well trained. Period. Lots and lots of dogs end up with extremely bad habits and most people that came into the shelter.....and this was from experience.......had no ability or willingness to train a dog. They would get the dog home....the dog would chew the couch......and they would bring the dog back 2 days later. Lots of rescue dogs are rescue dogs for a reason. Some people don't have the time or energy to put into reversing bad habits in a 5 year old dog. It is much, much easier to train a dog from puppy on. Plus a lot of the time rescue dogs need much more than just bad habit breaking or training. There are quite a few that have extreme health problems and that is why they end up being a rescue dog.

Yes, I am a breeder. But I also do rescue. I have taken in a lot of rescue dogs, rehabilitated them and put them is suitable homes.

Gee, I'm such a terrible person.

I have 1-2 litters a year that result in 2-6 puppies. WOW I'm definately overpopulating.

You breed snakes, don't you vengeance. I'm sure you end up with a hell of a lot more snakes than that in a year. YOU ARE STARTING AN EPIDEMIC!!!!!!

Sorry to everyone else that breeds snakes. I wasn't trying to be rude. And I didn't actually mean anything by it. I was just trying to get my point across to vengeance.

I also cant believe that you would even think of saying that millers, backyard breeders, and breeders that show are all the same.

Millers: are people who don't care about the breed. They breed and breed dogs, and when they can't be bred they euthanize them. They usually have hundreds of dogs living in filthy conditions, and do it just for the money. NOTHING ELSE. They usually sell to pet stores and/or anyone on the street and as long as they get their money they don't care what happens to the dog after that.

Backyard breeders: are people who have a dog and decide that it might be kind of cool to breed it to the neighbours dog for various reasons. They think that their dog will calm down after having a litter of puppies, they want their children to watch the miracle of birth etc.

Breeder for show: They better the breed. They do a lot of selective breeding to better one or more qualities in the breed. Most of the time this is the breeders life and passion. Lots of them spend a lot of money on showing etc and get little or nothing in return except the satisfaction that they bettered the breed.

Before you go around making assumptions you should maybe do a little research.

[LISA127]

I have nothing against RESPONSIBLE breeders. I, however, choose to give a home to a homeless dog. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with not wanting to spend the money. Yes, I only paid $50 to adopt my dog, and she was already spayed to boot. But...to me she is worth any amount of money. She is the love of my life. She is my heart. And she is worth just as much as any purebred. I think it is unfair to say that those of us who rescue just don't want to spend the money. That is just ridiculous!

I agree that not everyone is up to the task of training a shelter dog. But for those people, there are rescue groups that foster these dogs in their homes. They know what the dogs issues are, if any. And they have worked with the dog on training and such. They can help match the right dog with the right owner. Yes, lots of dogs in rescue have problems. But lots of dogs also are in rescue through no fault of their own. It takes time, but anyone can offer a home to a homeless dog. No matter what they are looking for in a dog.

Oh, and by the way....if someone wants to start with a baby who doesn't have any issues yet, they can still rescue! There are hundreds of young puppies euthanized in shelters every day.

[Delirium]

It is my opinion that you are adding to the problem. It is my opinion that what you are doing is tragic and reprehensible. I look forward to the day when there are heavy restrictions placed on dog and cat breeding in the world so that, in cooperation with spaying and neutering procedures, the dog and cat overpopulation epidemic will cease to exist. While you make some noble efforts in my eyes to be more responsible then the average mill, I still cannot condone the potential pet homes that your animals take up that might otherwise go to a dog in desperate need. I have a very conservative view and am entitled to it. That view forces me to classify your actions as unfortunate.

As was previously stated more then once, it is our opinion that the breeding of animals not in an epidemic state is acceptable. So, just like I can happily support those who breed snakes and spiders as they have not obliterated their market and created a situation where millions of their offspring suffer and die every year, I will do the same with dogs and cats once we take responsibilty for the mess we have created and clean it up.

Dee

[Vengeance]

To me it sounds like you want a pet and you are just too damn cheap to go buy one.

Now there is a new Ignorant statement of the week. I choose not to contribute to a problem by adopting instead of buying. You choose to contribute to a problem by breeding. Although as stated before you do take great efforts as a breeder to make the best life possible for your animals, you still are not taking any consideration for the millions of dogs that already exist and thousands of others that are killed daily. But my 2 statements still stand, unless you have a solution to the over population problem of dogs and the high euthanasia rate, you shouldn't be breeding and my other statement of comparing you to a puppy mill still stands as well. You may have much better principals, but you are still just producing puppies for sale and contributing to the over population problem that currently exists. Now you are correct that some people just can't handle a rescue or a shelter dog. That puppies can be easier to train. But there is definitely enough dogs that whatever you are looking for in a dog, I'm almost 90% sure that you will find it through shelters and rescues. You just have to put the effort involved in finding it. When we did that transport of 2 dogs from one shelter to another, at the first shelter, there were 10 puppies, right at the front door, waiting for adoption. So if you want to spend the time looking instead of just finding the closest breeder and buying, you can find what you’re looking for and help the existing problem instead of contributing to it.

As for as breeding reptiles, yes I've just started a breeding project. But as I've already demonstrated by using www.petfinder.com as a source of information. There is no where near the epidemic proportions of rescue snakes that there is for dogs. Now maybe if I was a burm breeder or retic breeder or Iguana breeder you might have a leg to stand on when it comes to this argument, because they are high in rescue in shelters compared to other reptiles, but ask any Ball python breeder to find a mature female ball python during the breeding season and they will be sure to tell you just how hard it is. But if I wanted to go and find a female dog I could throw a stick at my nearest shelter and find 15 of them. So trying to compare snake breeding and dog breeding is just idiotic because the levels of saturation between the two is just ridiculously different.

I have 1-2 litters a year that result in 2-6 puppies. WOW I'm definately overpopulating

Yes you are, because every little bit helps and if everyone doesn't help then nothing will change. Those 2 - 6 puppies that you are placing are costing another 2 - 6 dogs lives in a shelter. Instead of producing 2 - 6 puppies a year, why don't you try and foster and place 2 - 6 dogs a year. This year myself and Delirium have saved 4 dogs lives, the 2 that we currently have and the 2 that we transported from one over crowded shelter to another that had room. But if everyone tried then maybe we wouldn't be having this debate because the problem would be solved. But then you could say that about almost every problem in the world and I'm just being idealistic at this point so I'll end my point with this.

Yes I agree out of the breeders in the world you are one of the better ones that I've heard of. Your strides as a breeder to make sure that your stock is properly cared for is commendable. But with every puppy placed into a home you are condemning another dog to death. Now again everything stated above is just my opinion on the subject, it doesn't mean that I'm telling people that they should only use rescues and only get from shelters. I'm just sharing my view on the subject, take from it what you will.

[LISA127]

I also wanted to add that all pet quality puppies absolutely should be spayed/neutered before going to their new homes. Giving $250 back if the person decides to neuter is not good enough!

[Mister Internet]

Good Lord.

I am brand new to this forum, and came here only for the snake information, and believe it or not, this is the first thread that has provoked me enough to actually post. I kept checking my browser address bar to make sure it didn't read "peta.org", but numerous observations confirmed I was still at "ssnakess.com".

To those of you who say that any and all breeding is wrong, I say tough cookies. We all have an idea of how we'd like the world to be... if your ideal world means ZERO homeless dogs, then of course eliminating all breeding is the most logical, if irrational, view. You fail to address the eventual problem of NO dogs, but I'm sure you're just going to say that there will always be enough people "breeding irresponsibly" to create more dogs. As long as we're speaking unrealistically and idealistically, how WOULD you address the problem of "non-breeding" them into scarcity? You can't have it both ways... either you 100% buy into the fact that eliminating breeding would lead to unnecessary scarcity, or you must concede that some responsible breeding must be allowed to continue.

I agree that more people COULD use the option of adoption than currently do... but to say everyone SHOULD, or argue that legislation should be in place to say that everyone MUST, is ridiculous.

I'm surprised no one has picked up on the human angle that was mentioned... if "reducing the unwanted" is such a core value, then why not argue it for ALL species (human included)? Does this mean you care more for animals than humans?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, but surely it doesn't take a genius to figure out that overpopulation isn't the real issue... it's a SYMPTOM, a RESULT of the actual problem: irresponsible animal owners. Remove irresponsible animal owners from the equation, no more overpopulation... no "unwanted" pets, as every baby produced would be spoken for, or shortly found a home. However, ELIMINATE the abiliy for animal owners to choose to be responsible, and you put control of dog's future populations in the hand of who, the government? Yeah, the always have animals' best interests in mind. "Approved" breeders? Oh wait, there are no situations where you should approve of breeding, I forgot.

The only thing ELIMINATION of breeding would accomplish is a future 30 years down the road where dogs are all but impossible to obtain... how does that accomplish the greater good?

[Vengeance]

I don't think anyone has ever said that breeding should be stopped forever, but stopping it for the short term, letting the population stabalize and then putting stiffer penalties for abandoning and improper breeding along with nutering and spaying is the best answer. Your talking in nothing but extremes, comparing our opinions to peta, an all or nothing breeding policy. Both are completly invalid arguments, A) If we were peta activists we would be arguing you shouldn't have a dog period. B) We've never said that such extremes as all or nothing is the solution. Controled breeding , followed by stiffer penalties is a reasonable idea. If it will happen or not is impossible to say, I'm not activly invlolved in poltics and dog overpopulation isn't a popular enough topic that a candidate would want to stand behind.

My main point is that buying from a breeder should be a last option instead of a first. I've mentioned it before, there are more then enough options avilable for everyone that finding a dog through a rescue or shelter is a very plausible option. Buying from a breeder should be a last resort if they can't find exactly what they are looking for. Why is that such are hard thing to swallow? I fail to see how anyone can try and argue there currently isn't an overpopulation problem with dogs and that breeding while this problem exists without a proper solution is ok. I've already stated that rare bloodlines and possibly even breeding for show might be acceptable, assuming that is all the person is doing. If they are breeding as a personal hobby for themselves fine. But as soon as they turn around and start selling to general public, they are just contributing to the existing problem. Now matter how many steps a breeder takes, unless then nuter or spay those puppies themselves there is nothing they can do to stop 2 things 1) That dog repoducing thus furthng the problem along and 2) That dog ending up in a shelter like thousands of others. Some breeders like jjaj02 do take some very proactive steps, and if more breeders took the responsiblity that jjaj02 does again we might not have this problem. But we do, so explain to me a valid point where continuing to mass produce the populus of dogs and have them euthinized by the thousands a day is a good idea?

[Linds]

Excellent post, Mister Internet. I couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by Vengeance
Linds

The argument of blood lines and dog showing is a hard point to argue against because you do have a valid point. I can understand wanting to breed a specfic blood line to be used for show. But I'm sure these same people who are breeding for show are also turning around and still selling their animals to john q public. So where is the line between breeding for show and just another back yard breeder?

Any good breeder does not sell to just anyone, and only sells on written contracts. For instance, all our dogs have been purchased on a no-spay/neuter contract, but we are under no circumstances allowed to breed the dogs without the breeder's approval and choice of animal. Any good breeder does take the steps to protect their bloodline/name, they do not want their bloodlines being tainted by any means. There is absolutely nothing irresposnible about it.

[Vengeance]

Originally posted by Linds
Any good breeder does not sell to just anyone, and only sells on written contracts. For instance, all our dogs have been purchased on a no-spay/neuter contract, but we are under no circumstances allowed to breed the dogs without the breeder's approval and choice of animal. Any good breeder does take the steps to protect their bloodline/name, they do not want their bloodlines being tainted by any means. There is absolutely nothing irresposnible about it.

Interesting, but here is my question. How is it controled? You said that under no cirumstance are you allowed to breed without the breeders approval, how is that controled? What penalties are involved if a dog you've sold or purchased is breed with something wasn'tt approved of? How are you able to be kept aware if a male dog is studded out to numrous females? What actions are taking to insure these things don't happen?

Contracts and restrictions are all great but if the breeder doesn't follow through on all their contracts and stipulations, then how is it diffrent from any other breeder? So I'm curious how does a breeder with such strict stipulations follow through on contracts and stipulations? Also how do they monitor the dogs they've sold?

[Delirium]

If it was Peta.org then we would be discussing the elimination of ALL animals as pets period, rather then the ethics of breeding of course.

Unwanted children are tragic i'm sure. Thankfully, 4.5 million of them aren't put into cages and then euthanized annually. Those that are treated unfairly have people who lobby for them as well. I personally have the energy for one or two causes, one of which i've chosen to make animals. Does this make me a bad person? No. Does it mean I love people less? No. Its a ridiculous comparison. It means that this is the cause I choose to support due to capacity, belief and ability. End of story.

There is zero chance that dogs will become extinct under my ideal policy. Breeding stops until the population is under control and then can continue under restricted and monitored circumstances. I do however concede that my policy does little to protect breeds themselves because they are not my priority and I do not see the value in them. Again, its my opinion, my theory, my right.

Finally, I agree that irresonsible ownership is a problem. Enforcing spay/neuter laws is one part of the solution. Irresponsible (and my category description for this is alot broader than yours i'm sure) breeding is also part of the problem. It is my hope that through education of the public and increase legislation municipally that we will find a solution to this also.

Linds, while I agree that I have a very conservative view on breeding, it is my personal opinion that it is valid. As i've said, while some breeders make the effort to be "more" responsible than the average mill, their dogs are still taking up the spot in a home that could potentially go to a dog that is already laguishing somewhere. That is what I find unacceptable.

Dee

[Delirium]

Originally posted by Vengeance
Interesting, but here is my question. How is it controled? You said that under no cirumstance are you allowed to breed without the breeders approval, how is that controled? What penalties are involved if a dog you've sold or purchased is breed with something wasn'tt approved of? How are you able to be kept aware if a male dog is studded out to numrous females? What actions are taking to insure these things don't happen?

Contracts and restrictions are all great but if the breeder doesn't follow through on all their contracts and stipulations, then how is it diffrent from any other breeder? So I'm curious how does a breeder with such strict stipulations follow through on contracts and stipulations? Also how do they monitor the dogs they've sold?

That is one of the critical flaws in spay/neuter contracts. Many people don't follow up on them, sacrificing any deposit they put down and few breeders follow up. There are few, if any, audits in the system to make it effective and as the current epidemic shows, having people rely on their own ethics for animal care is ineffective.

Dee

[Linds]

The breeders I know make a point of keeping tabs on all their animals, and not just selling to anyone with a wad of cash. It is something that is important to them. The contracts are legally-binding, as a result if a contract is broken, then they have legal rights over the animal/s in question, and can take whatever legal course of action they wish, additionally. It isn't 100% effective no doubt, as I am sure some breeders are not so responsible with their offspring, or people that may try to get around it., but I do believe that is definitely has a large enough impact on prevention. The majority of dogs running around abandoned or found in pounds, are likely not the result of the above, but from stores, mills, classifieds, and unsupervised or irresponsible breedings. While it does happen, it is far less likely that a $3000 animal is going to end up in such a manner than a $100 animal. This applies to just about every animal you can encounter. Perfect examples are the 'disposable' cornsnakes, anoles, and leopard geckos out there. A $3000 snake is far less likely to be released in to the wild, be without veterinary care when needed, or inadequate housing than a $5 lizard. Sadly, price does have a definite impact in the overall, general care of a specific group of animals. With that being said, nobody should be going after the people producing those that are less likely to end up as a problem, as the main ones that are the general source of it all. Responsible breeders are not the problem, it's the irresposnible breeders and keepers out there, so I can't see how we should be made such an intense focus in something that we are so little a part of.

[Vengeance]

I was really just looking for calrification, haven't never dealt with high end dogs I don't know how the stipulations are kept. Also some people say that have allot of fancy stipulations but then never follow through due to hassle involved. I've said their are execptions to every rule and people taking to proper precautions are an exception and I have said that before. But as mentioned as soon as a respectable breeder starts selling to John Q public without any stipulations on breeding or legeal requirments then as stated before they are just adding to the problem. But from the sounds of what your telling me if this is what is actually done, and they actually do follow through on their legal requirments then I see no reason why it would be a problem.

Just one last point now that I've had a little more time to re-read things a little bit more....

Also when I sell the puppies I do not get them spayed and neutered before I sell them. I tack on an extra $250 dollars and when the new owners get them fixed, they get $250 dollars back. Which totally covers the cost of the spay or neuter.

To me this sounds more like a cash grab to me, that way you make an extra $250 everytime a puppy you sell doesn't get spayed or nutered. Yould should tak the extra $250 on and get it done yourself.

[jjaj02]

Ok, I want to make some more "statements" here.

I have already explained to everyone here that puppy mills, backyard breeders, and reputable breeders are three totally seperate things. Go onto any site that discusses it and it will say the same thing. Have you ever seen pictures of a puppy mill? Or ever been to one for that matter? Those pictures are definately different from the pictures you will see coming out of my house. I definately do not like being compared to a puppy mill.

I am not saying that you should never adopt from a shelter or a rescue. If you want to do that all the power to you. I think it is great if you want to adopt. But the sad fact is that most dogs that are adopted from a shelter either end up in the same circumstances they were before.....abused, neglected, etc. I'm not saying that every dog that ends up in a rescue or shelter has been abused or neglected (there are many other reasons for it) but a lot of people that "adopt" a dog as opposed to buying one, is because of the simple fact that they don't have the money. They take these dogs from the shelters and end up bringing them back because they can't afford them, etc. But you saying that that should be the only option is ridiculous. It's life. People have preferences.

I think that it is great that you have taken in animals that needed homes. It's nice to hear that someone cares enough.

Yes, my contract is legally binding. If someone wants to buy a dog from me and does not want to sign the contract then he/she doesn't get the dog....simple as that.

Thank you, vengeance for saying that I better in most aspects than most breeders.

I am also sorry for saying that you only get shelter dogs because you can't afford to buy one. I didn't really mean it but I was kind of caught up in the moment and little peed off.

Actually, I'm not just a breeder I rescue dogs too. I had a lady call me about getting a chihuahua and she said that was wanting to get a new dog because she was getting her euthanized. I asked her why she was doing that. I figured the dog was old, very sick etc. She told me that her 1 year old terrier poodle X named Kira threw seizures. I was apalled. Dogs can live a very normal life with seizures if put on proper diet and meds. I told her that I couldn't sell her a dog but I offered to take Kira. I was going to get her on meds, a better diet, and put her in a home that could meet her needs. We ended up spending over $3000 on her. We could not figure out what was causing the seizures. She ended up passing away after me having her for 4 months. At least we tried everything in our power to save her. She was so sweet and she would have made someone a very nice friend.

Just because I breed does not mean that I don't "care" about animals. In fact, most rescues are also breeders. Lots and lots of breeders take in rescue dogs.

[jjaj02]

Also, by me asking for $250 until they get their dog spayed or neutered is not a "cash grab". I state that the dog MUST be spayed or neutered by the age of 6 months. The reason I don't do it myself is because why would I keep a dog at my house until it was 6 months old. I would much rather it grow up entirely with its new owners. I have never had a problem with a buyer not getting the dog spayed or neutered. As a matter of fact, we will go to the vets the day of the appointment and be there for the surgery so we KNOW it has been done.

I never sell a dog to somewhere where I can't go and see it. I usually home check a dog once a year, and most of the time it is with little or no notice. I also call the new owners once a month for the first 6 months and then once every few months after that to see if they are having any problems or if they have any questions.

[Delirium]

I have to firmly disagree with the thought that expensive dogs are less likely to end up in pounds. Those new "designer" breeds that mills are going nuts on right now? 2000$ for a sick, runt, mutt aka a teacup perfectpoo for example. Those are just as likely to end up in pounds as a pet store puppy. Price does not matter when a person realises that their cute little four legged friend is becoming an "inconvenience". And i'll state again, there are even championship dogs frequently put up for adoption on Petfinder. Contracts, legally binding or not, have been proven time and again to be ineffective when it comes to fixing and rehoming. Money is no object in our "want/have" society and giving up that money when it loses its cutest is no object either. Time and again have we seen it happen.

Finaly, pound animals, abused or not, are not destined to end up in that situation again as I feel was stated. Both of my dogs were "abused. One forced to breed excessively and the other neglected to the point that the vet removed an inch and a half steel rod from his leg during which Toby didn't even flinch. They are now definately not in such an environment and will continue to develop physically and mentally for the rest of their lives. Of course I'm speaking for myself but I can vouch that all the other rescues in my area guarantee the same thing to say nothing about the influence our educational efforts have on the growing circles around us.


Dee

[jjaj02]

I am not saying that ALL pound dogs are going to end up in that situation. I am saying that, from experience, working in a pound, that lots and lots of them did. Or ended up back at the shelter.

Also it is a proven fact that "cheap" dogs end up in pounds or rescues more frequently than "expensive" ones. There is a website to prove it! I will find it and post it here. Some newspapers and online classifieds actually banned people from putting "FOR FREE" ads in the newspapers and online.

[Leviathan]

for the person that mentioned multiation as a term for ear cropping. Have you ever owned a dog that normally has there ears cropped and yours don't. Dogs like mastiffs that have there ears cropped is not done just for show. Those dogs are extremely prone to ear infections. Alot of the time if there ears are not cropped and they don't go threw the couple hours of pain, they are constantly having to go back and forth to the vet to get medication. As an example, if you knew somehow that you were going to have cronic infections on your 'manhood' would you (if you could) tell your parents to forget about circumsizing you or would you want it done when you were a baby so you wouldn't have to go through pain as an adult a couple of times and then have to be circumsized anyways. Hmmmmmm....

[jjaj02]

Here is a site:

http://www.petrescue.com/library/free-pet.htm

[reptiguy420]

i agree...

[Delirium]

I agree that free to good home ads are deadly. They are attractions to research institutions, dog fighting rings and other unscrupulous types. However, my address was not in regards to those ads but against the concept that a dog that a person pays 400$ for is more likely to end up in a pound than one that a person pays 2000$ for aka those teacups. For the average dog owner in north america, I feel that my statement is correct.

Also, ear cropping and tail docking is mutilation, akin to claw removal on cats. I have beagles which are very prone to ear infections. In fact, Sneaky has chronic otitis which I am constantly treating. I would never however cut off her ear flaps to combat it, nor, historically, was it ever done to beagles for that purpose even though they are one of the most prone breeds to such ailments. As such, I state that ear cropping was never done at all to combat ear infections otherwise it would be standard on all floppy eared breeds and it is not now nor never has been. The dogs that it was done to (so much so that many people can't identify an unmodified animal from pictures) were those bred for certain work functions like hunting, herding and/or fighting. The purpose of the modification was prevention of snag during movement in tight brush and the removal of a gripping option during combat against predators. For example, dobermans are a commonly cropped dog because their breed was designed to be smooth and sleek; difficult to catch and snag in tight quarters. Again, nothing to do with ear infection.

On this note, my argument against it now, is that many dogs no longer perform the tasks that they were designed to complete. For them, this is an unnecessary surgery, rife with complications and done mainly for esthetic purposes and as such I can't condone it.

Thankfully, the trend is growing with vets to refuse the performing of these procedures While not as advanced as the trend to refuse declawing of cats, it is spreading as people realise that the practicality of the operation is gone and the pain and risk to the animal too great. One day soon I hope we will come to a point where unnecessary body modification like this are obsolete.

A caveat I should add is this. While I don't agree that ear infections require ear amputation, I do agree that any time that an animal's life is at stake and amputation of ear or limb might save it, I feel I agree. Provided of course that the risk is reasonable, the suffering of the animal would be minimal and that the animal's chances for a long healthy life after the fact was reasonable. I'm referring of course to cases of happy tail and the like.

Dee

[leoncurrie]

Originally posted by jjaj02
I state that the dog MUST be spayed or neutered by the age of 6 months.

We adopted our dog from the local SPCA when she was 8 weeks old. The shelter told us that before we could take her home that she had to be spayed. And so we signed the papers and paid our fee and off she went to the vet. We didn't have much of a say in the matter. After we got her home, we took her to our choice of vet and had her checked up. Our vet informed us that she may have been too young to have been spayed and that the vet who preformed the surgery would have had a difficult time with a pup at that age because their little parts are sooooo small. I have noticed during obedience classes with my dog that when I put my hand under her back end to do her stand-stay exercise, she will let out a little yelp. She is quite tender in that particular area. I'm convinced that it could have been from being spayed at such a young age. If I would have had an option to pay the shelter not to spay her and undertook to have it done myself when she got a little older, I would have taken that opportunity.

Also, we initially wanted to save an older dog because we knew that the puppies would have no problem getting a home to go to but the staff insisted that because we had a little girl it would be best for the family not to get a "Dog with baggage". Again we had no choice in the matter. They pretty much told us a puppy or nothing. From my understanding an older dog is harder to place in a home than a puppy would be...why would the shelter staff not try to help us find an older dog that would have been suitable for our family? Isn't it the older dogs that get euthanized more often then puppys?

I'd also like to add that as far as comparring a dog breeder to that of a puppy mill is just wrong. A breeder would not have hundreds of dogs at one time. A puppy mill would. If the laws were more strict on puppy mills and the backyard breeders and they had higher penalties for these types of organizations perhaps it may deter some of them from existing, however, I'm sure that no matter what - puppy mills, etc. will always still exist. Look at the laws out there that hold high penalties now....those crimes still happen. Some people are just willing to take their chances.

[jjaj02]

No, I doubt that $400 dogs as opposed to $2000 dogs are going to end up in the pound more. What I am saying is the ones that are like $50-$100 or even $150 are more likely to end up there. People for some reason think that just because they are cheap that they are disposable.

Also just a point of interest. There is no such thing as a teacup anything. All a teacup is, is a breeders representation of a runt.
Breeding runts to runts will result in runts. Teacup chihuahuas, pomeranians, etc., are non existant. What they really are is runt chihuahuas, pomeranians, etc. They are not recognized at all. A teacup dog is fancy word to add on to the breed name so breeders can get more $$$. Any breeder that is selling a teacup is full of s**t. And anyone looking for a teacup should realize all they are getting is the runt from normal sized dogs.

Sorry but I had to get that one off my chest......cause it bugs me. HEHE.

[LISA127]

Personally, I don't understand all this talk of the money. Purebreds and mutts from pounds end up in shelters all the time. Do you really think that when a dog is going through it's "teenage" years and the owners are working full time and raising kids and realize they don't care enough about this dog to make it a priority, that the $500 or $1,000 they spent a year ago is going to force them to keep this dog?? I don't think so! I'm sorry, this money argument does not work with me.
I'm a total animal lover. I feel more comfortable in the company of dogs than in the company of people. They are my life. Most, not all but most, people who feel the way I do are happier to rescue a dog who needs a chance than to purchase a purebred. And they are the people who really value their dogs.

[jjaj02]

I am sorry that you feel that the same amount of "expensive" dogs end up in the pound as often as a "cheap" one. I feel bad about using those words because you can't put a price on an animals life. BUT its a true fact. And most people that are going to spend, say, $2000 on a dog, have done the research on the breed, know exactly what they are looking for (hense the reason for buying that breed), and know exactly what they are in for. Not just anyone throws $2000 away on a dog. I'm not saying that "expensive" dogs don't end up in pounds because they do. But the whole three years that I worked at our shelter only a handful of purebred dogs ended up there. The rest of them were crossbreds.

Its not the reputable breeders, that line breed, that are over populating the world with dogs. It's puppy mills and backyard breeders that are breeding their mutts and giving away (or selling for cheap) to other irrisponsible people to breed them again........it keeps going and going.

It's also these people that think it is great fun to cross breed purebred dogs to make "new breeds" like terripoos, cockapoos, pekapoos, maltipoos, pekapoms, pomchis, golden doodles, etc. These people are causing the problem. Not reputable breeders like myself that breed a select few dogs to improve a certain breed. So don't come down on us for over populating the world with dogs.

And you can say what you want about cheap vs. expensive dogs. The facts are the facts.

[LISA127]

What you don't understand is that I am not against breeders. I am against irresponsible breeders. And, IMO, there are very few that are responsible. I think it is just fine to seek out a reputable breeder to buy a pup from if you are planning to show your dog, etc.
However if you are looking for a pet, family member, buddy,.....then there is no good reason to buy from a breeder as opposed to rescuing. This is the way I feel, and the way I will continue to feel as long as unwanted dogs and puppies are dying in shelters.
I don't know what shelter you worked at, but the shelter I was at had at least 3 or 4 purebreds dogs in it on any given day.
I'm sorry, I give no extra credit to someone who spends $1000 on a purebred pup. That means nothing to me. What means something to me is the person willing to open their heart to a homeless dog. Even one with problems. Because the emotional investment that goes with a rescue dog is worth more than any financial investment.
And I'm sorry, but I do believe that any pet quality pup should be spayed/neutered BEFORE leaving the breeder. A responsible breeder, that is.

[VI Reptiles]

Ok, Iv only known 1 pure bred and he grew to 18 yrs old after caterac and other problems made us put him to sleep! He wasnt my favorite dog as he was poddle x shitzu or some concoction of different dog species. When I met my uncles dog which is a Miniature Schnauzer was the most unique dog I ever saw with his beard, his eye brows showing and energetic as well. When we found a female mini schnauzer we went for it up in Qualicum on vancouver island and brought her home, about 3 months later we found a white miniature schnauzer in the U.S and have him shipped in from Florida! Later we found out white miniature schnauzers are rare on the island and there are maybe 10-20 in whole canada so we were really happy!. The year we bred them we produced 6 babies and 1 we kept, the next year we bred them again and we didnt keep any but the female we had earlier got with the dad and made only 1 in the litter which we didnt want to happen! Every year from then on we have been putting schnauzers around bc for 5 yrs and have used our white boy as a stud many times! We have put out atleast 60 dogs with our 1 male and will be putting out more every year!!! We have 5 dogs are self and there names are as followed: meg(Female), mickey(male), motko (male), mokie (female) and harry (male). Motko name is pronounced *motsko* and mokie is pronounced the same way as you would say it. If your wondering where these names originated, they came from Hungary as my dad is hungarian :) We only produce the best schnauzers available and is probably the biggest schnauzer breeder around BC but hopefully we will be the biggest in Canada in 3 years as we are aquiring 3 black females which hopefully will put out 6 pups each.

*Note most people that buy them are people with older kids, atleast 14 yrs plus and usually have no intention of breeding so they neuter them*

This is just my small part of my life besides reptiles!!!

[Delirium]

Originally posted by jjaj02
No, I doubt that $400 dogs as opposed to $2000 dogs are going to end up in the pound more. What I am saying is the ones that are like $50-$100 or even $150 are more likely to end up there. People for some reason think that just because they are cheap that they are disposable.

Also just a point of interest. There is no such thing as a teacup anything. All a teacup is, is a breeders representation of a runt.
Breeding runts to runts will result in runts. Teacup chihuahuas, pomeranians, etc., are non existant. What they really are is runt chihuahuas, pomeranians, etc. They are not recognized at all. A teacup dog is fancy word to add on to the breed name so breeders can get more $$$. Any breeder that is selling a teacup is full of s**t. And anyone looking for a teacup should realize all they are getting is the runt from normal sized dogs.

Sorry but I had to get that one off my chest......cause it bugs me. HEHE.

I totally agree with this. Its nuts. Breeding a runt which likely already has genetic issues, to another runt. Way to go. Damn that Paris Hilton for promoting this trend even further. Its ridiculous.

Dee

[Delirium]

Originally posted by jjaj02
I am sorry that you feel that the same amount of "expensive" dogs end up in the pound as often as a "cheap" one. I feel bad about using those words because you can't put a price on an animals life. BUT its a true fact. And most people that are going to spend, say, $2000 on a dog, have done the research on the breed, know exactly what they are looking for (hense the reason for buying that breed), and know exactly what they are in for. Not just anyone throws $2000 away on a dog. I'm not saying that "expensive" dogs don't end up in pounds because they do. But the whole three years that I worked at our shelter only a handful of purebred dogs ended up there. The rest of them were crossbreds.

Its not the reputable breeders, that line breed, that are over populating the world with dogs. It's puppy mills and backyard breeders that are breeding their mutts and giving away (or selling for cheap) to other irrisponsible people to breed them again........it keeps going and going.

It's also these people that think it is great fun to cross breed purebred dogs to make "new breeds" like terripoos, cockapoos, pekapoos, maltipoos, pekapoms, pomchis, golden doodles, etc. These people are causing the problem. Not reputable breeders like myself that breed a select few dogs to improve a certain breed. So don't come down on us for over populating the world with dogs.

And you can say what you want about cheap vs. expensive dogs. The facts are the facts.

That's the thing, those aren't facts. Again, just as many 2000$ dogs (like our favourite little "teacups") end up in pounds as do the "cheap" ones.

Dee

[Delirium]

Originally posted by VI Reptiles
Ok, Iv only known 1 pure bred and he grew to 18 yrs old after caterac and other problems made us put him to sleep! He wasnt my favorite dog as he was poddle x shitzu or some concoction of different dog species. When I met my uncles dog which is a Miniature Schnauzer was the most unique dog I ever saw with his beard, his eye brows showing and energetic as well. When we found a female mini schnauzer we went for it up in Qualicum on vancouver island and brought her home, about 3 months later we found a white miniature schnauzer in the U.S and have him shipped in from Florida! Later we found out white miniature schnauzers are rare on the island and there are maybe 10-20 in whole canada so we were really happy!. The year we bred them we produced 6 babies and 1 we kept, the next year we bred them again and we didnt keep any but the female we had earlier got with the dad and made only 1 in the litter which we didnt want to happen! Every year from then on we have been putting schnauzers around bc for 5 yrs and have used our white boy as a stud many times! We have put out atleast 60 dogs with our 1 male and will be putting out more every year!!! We have 5 dogs are self and there names are as followed: meg(Female), mickey(male), motko (male), mokie (female) and harry (male). Motko name is pronounced *motsko* and mokie is pronounced the same way as you would say it. If your wondering where these names originated, they came from Hungary as my dad is hungarian :) We only produce the best schnauzers available and is probably the biggest schnauzer breeder around BC but hopefully we will be the biggest in Canada in 3 years as we are aquiring 3 black females which hopefully will put out 6 pups each.

*Note most people that buy them are people with older kids, atleast 14 yrs plus and usually have no intention of breeding so they neuter them*

This is just my small part of my life besides reptiles!!!

If this "purebred" dog you knew was a "was poddle x shitzu or some concoction of different dog species" then it wasn't a purebred. The very definition of purebred basically means not crossed with anything. What you had there was a beautiful little mutt, which is great, but it wasn't a purebred. It concerns me a bit that a "breeder" wouldn't know this.

Okay too many friggin posts to reply to individually.

Leon, i'm sorry you had such a negative experience. I have to say that there are bad seeds in all areas of life, including the very noble world of pet rescue. My only advice to you is to always be a knowledgeable consumer, even when adopting an animal. There are TONS of rescues and pounds out there so that if you are not happy with one, move to another. Never, in anything in life really, let yourself get pressured into doing something you don't want to do. When it happens, you really have no one to blame but yourself and you can sometimes find yourself in very difficult situations if you let it happen.

As to your thoughts on older dogs, you are very right. While puppies do get euthanized, older dogs definately have more difficulty getting adopted. Many people think that puppies are better with children which is wrong. Many people think that you need to have a dog grow up with children to be good which is wrong. And many people think that older dogs have baggage which is again wrong. I'm sorry that you ran into one of those people when you were adopting. Factually, older dogs can be trained, are often more tolerant (ergo less nippy) around children and ergo better. They aren't always used goods in a bad way. If you ever need any help finding another animal for yourself, please don't hesitate to let me know and I will help you search.

Dee

[Linds]

Originally posted by LISA127
I don't know what shelter you worked at, but the shelter I was at had at least 3 or 4 purebreds dogs in it on any given day.

Another thing to point out, just because an animal looks like a purebred, doesn't mean it wasn't still the result of a backyard breeding or mill. Reputable 'pureblood' breeders are not the only ones that can breed two dogs of the same breed. Those dogs may not be highly priced at all.


And I'm sorry, but I do believe that any pet quality pup should be spayed/neutered BEFORE leaving the breeder. A responsible breeder, that is.

I whole-heartedly agree with this.

Originally posted by LISA127
However if you are looking for a pet, family member, buddy,.....then there is no good reason to buy from a breeder as opposed to rescuing.

While it definitely should be done when possible, it isn't always feasible. In the end, it is YOUR dog, and if you cannot find what you have been looking for, then you shouldn't be obligated to adopt on the premise that you only want a pet. As forementioned, many resues come with baggage, or some people want to grow with their pets (especially a caution when kids are added to the equation).

[LISA127]

There are many, many young puppies dying in shelters everyday. Why can't you rescue even if you want a pup so you can grow with your pet??

The dog in my avatar is 3 years old now. I adopted her from a shelter when she was 8 weeks old. She's never known anything but my family. She has grown with my family. At the time I was looking for a dog, I knew I wanted a pup seeing as I had kids and cats at home and wanted the dog to grow up with them. There were no shortages of young pups in the shelters and pounds. She's grown up to be the best dog I've ever known, and fits in great with our family. You can always rescue, no matter what you are looking for in your family dog.

[VI Reptiles]

Dee, we did not say it was a pure bred I just said I did not like that dog. I dont know where we got it or who gave it to us but all I know is when I was 11 when we put him down. Im probably not gonna get another dog at the pound because how they are kept and they cant guarentee its healthy and plus i wouldnt be able to breed it!

[LISA127]

Originally posted by VI Reptiles
Dee, we did not say it was a pure bred I just said I did not like that dog. I dont know where we got it or who gave it to us but all I know is when I was 11 when we put him down. Im probably not gonna get another dog at the pound because how they are kept and they cant guarentee its healthy and plus i wouldnt be able to breed it!

You know, these are living and feeling beings we are talking about. You are not buying a car. No person or animal has guaranteed good health for life. :rolleyes:

[Vengeance]

Originally posted by VI Reptiles
Dee, we did not say it was a pure bred I just said I did not like that dog. I dont know where we got it or who gave it to us but all I know is when I was 11 when we put him down. Im probably not gonna get another dog at the pound because how they are kept and they cant guarentee its healthy and plus i wouldnt be able to breed it!

That by far has to be the most disturbing statment to date.

You can't breed it?! Of course you can't breed it, you shouldn't be breeding it, your one of the backyard breeders we are talking about, your the one causeing the problems. The one with no standards and is only out to make money on the suffering of other dogs.

Also most shelters will inform you of all health problems so you know exactly what you are getting into, also wouldn't it be better to get the dog OUT of that situation instead of leaving them in such horrible conditions?

I'm disturbed by what you just said and the fact that you are already breeding dogs does nothing but make your point of view even less valid.

[Linds]

Originally posted by LISA127
There are many, many young puppies dying in shelters everyday. Why can't you rescue even if you want a pup so you can grow with your pet??


There are a few specific breeds that I will not have in my home, mainly due to their natural instincts, and less importantly, I don't like the way they look. These dogs are also unfortunately common in shelters, both pure and crossed. Just because you want a pet doesn't mean you should have to sacrafice that and go with something you are completely not happy with. Just like with reptiles, you should never get something you aren't happy with, or you are doing the animal an injustice.

I have rescues, and in fact just had to have one that we have had for 11 years put down on Monday :(:(:(, so don't think I am cold-hearted against it. If he was with any other family, he would've been put down long ago due to his 'baggage' and he was a product of bad breeding at it's finest. We weren't looking for another dog when we got him, but he needed a place. My point is, they have their place, but there is also nothing shameful about going to a breeder if you want to fill certain shoes, even if it is still just a pet.

[Delirium]

Originally posted by VI Reptiles
Dee, we did not say it was a pure bred I just said I did not like that dog. I dont know where we got it or who gave it to us but all I know is when I was 11 when we put him down. Im probably not gonna get another dog at the pound because how they are kept and they cant guarentee its healthy and plus i wouldnt be able to breed it!

You actually did say just that. And I quote:

"Ok, Iv only known 1 pure bred and he grew to 18 yrs old "

Perhaps its an age issue or a language barrier. Who knows.

No dog is guaranteed healthy with the exception of those fancy little plastic ones you get at the Sony store. Just like people dogs require maintenance and doctors to keep them running in tip top shape.

Dog pounds keep their animals the best they possibly can. The key here is to get the dogs out of there as fast as possible so that they can have a home like anyone else. Pounds are not supposed to be permanent homes for animals. It is an emergency location when they have no where else to go. If you adopt a dog from there, then they're no longer living in those conditions. Problem solved.

If you were responsible you wouldn't be breeding your dogs to begin with. That's the whole idea why they come to you fixed.

Dee

[jjaj02]

LISA:

Linds is totally right. You may have 3 or 4 purebred "looking" dogs come in everyday. There is a very good chance that they aren't. A rhodesian ridgeback for example, the ridge is a very defined thing among that breed. You may have a dog that comes in that has the ridgeback, but in actuality that dog might be crossed with 1 or 2 other breeds or breed X's. That ridge will occur if it is purebred and bred to a different breed. That doesn't mean it is a purebred, just because it looks like one. Another example, you could have a maltese that comes in. It doesnt mean it is purebred. It could quite possible be crossed with a lhasa apso.

To be truly a purebred, there must be generations and generations of pedigrees to prove that they are. Otherwise its just speculation that they are.

I'm not saying that all the dogs that come in aren't, I'm just saying that probably quite a few that look like they are, aren't.

By the way, I'm from a little hick town of about 15,000 people in SW Saskatchewan. Hehe.

[LISA127]

Linds,
First of all, my deepest sympathy on the loss of your dog. What a difficult thing. I'm sure he lived a long and happy life with you.

As far as the rest goes, well I guess we should just agree to disagree...as I see no reason not to rescue if you are looking for a puppy as a pet.

Lisa

[LISA127]

Originally posted by jjaj02
LISA:

Linds is totally right. You may have 3 or 4 purebred "looking" dogs come in everyday. There is a very good chance that they aren't. A rhodesian ridgeback for example, the ridge is a very defined thing among that breed. You may have a dog that comes in that has the ridgeback, but in actuality that dog might be crossed with 1 or 2 other breeds or breed X's. That ridge will occur if it is purebred and bred to a different breed. That doesn't mean it is a purebred, just because it looks like one. Another example, you could have a maltese that comes in. It doesnt mean it is purebred. It could quite possible be crossed with a lhasa apso.

To be truly a purebred, there must be generations and generations of pedigrees to prove that they are. Otherwise its just speculation that they are.

I'm not saying that all the dogs that come in aren't, I'm just saying that probably quite a few that look like they are, aren't.

By the way, I'm from a little hick town of about 15,000 people in SW Saskatchewan. Hehe.

That's fine and I understand what you are saying. But it is of no importance to me, seeing as what I look for in a dog is a best friend. And purebred, in that instance, is not important.

[Mister Internet]

Originally posted by VI ReptilesIm probably not gonna get another dog at the pound because how they are kept and they cant guarentee its healthy and plus i wouldnt be able to breed it!

Originally posted by Vengeance I'm disturbed by what you just said and the fact that you are already breeding dogs does nothing but make your point of view even less valid.

You think you're disturbed now, check out that user's gems of wisdom in the rat breeding thread... scary enough to make one hope that that user isn't planning on breeding himself.

[Vengeance]

Originally posted by Mister Internet
You think you're disturbed now, check out that user's gems of wisdom in the rat breeding thread... scary enough to make one hope that that user isn't planning on breeding himself.

*edit*

I've come to figure out that Mister Internet's comment wasn't directed at me, I assumed it was because he didn't quote anyone and posted right after I had. Also I was also involved in that post. Sorry for making the wrong assumption.

[Mister Internet]

EDITED - no problem Vengeance... I did quote two people in my post, but it wasn't terribly clear. Sorry for the confusion! :)

There has been a lot of good discussion in this thread... it's made me stop and think why I feel the way I feel. It makes me wonder if a compromise couldn't be reached. Like maybe if you were getting a "pet" dog and you went to get your dog license, that they would require proof of spaying/neutering within 90 days or something. that way, "pet dogs" stay pets, with no possibility of breeding, and breeders could get a "breeders license" that would allow them to bypass the spaying/neutering requirement. The major hangup I have with my idea is that is would make sense to charge the breeders more for their license, to compensate for the additional fees incurred by making the "pet" owners fix their dogs, but it doesn't seem terribly fair... maybe if it wasn't TOO high? I dunno... it's a lot to thinkg about...

[Delirium]

I'm on board with your discussion Internet. Part of it is in play already. For example, when getting your license in the city of Toronto, I think its 50$ per dog per year if they're unvaccinated, unchipped and unfixed. As you knock items off the list it gets cheaper right down until you hit 10$ per year when you've satisifed all the requirements. The idea behind is obviously a monetary incentive to be a responsible pet owner. Problem is, not everyone gets their dog licensed.

On a related note, our foster dog got neutered at 9:30 this morning! Very excited. He's been up and around, wagging his tail and barking, apparently since 11 o'clock.

Dee

[LISA127]

Dee,
Glad to hear your foster dog is feeling well....lol. I may possibly be getting a new foster this week. A "looks to be purebred" female german shepard dog. And she's as sweet as pie. :)
Lisa

[jjaj02]

Glad to see your foster dog is feeling well....lol. I may possibly be getting a new foster this week. A "looks to be purebred" female german shepard dog. Ans she's as sweet as pie.

Hehe. I hope your not making fun of what I said LISA127 :)

Anyways. Yes, I have to pay a lot more to breed my dogs. It's the same as in Toronto. I pay $50 per dog per year. My breeders cost me $300 per year. Plus I have to pay a $200 kennel fee every year, so add it up. Most people that have dogs as pets pay very little if the dog is, spayed/neutered, micochipped, etc, etc, etc.

Anyways, I would just like to say that I hope you keep adopting and fostering. It's good to see rescue dogs go to good homes. Plus they need them a lot more often. The one good thing about when I worked at the shelter where I live we never EVER put any dogs down. I loved the fact that they ALL found homes. Yes, lots of them ended up back with us a couple/few times but eventually every dog that came in found a "forever" home. Unfortunately since the provincial SPCA got their grub hooks on our SPCA it has been a different story.

Actually to prove how stupid the Provincial SCPA is here is another story:

One day at work the city called and said they were bringing in a dog so we made room for him. What they didn't tell us was that the dog was damn near dead. The city brought in a collie X puppy that had been frozen to irrigation pipe for, so we think, over a week in -30 weather. He was sooo skinny you could see every bone in his body, he was actally so skinny that you could make out parts of his insides. He could'nt walk, or hold in his urine, and he was missing 2 toes off of his back foot. My manager put him in the quarentine room and in 2 days she had him up and walking around and eating and drinking on his own. It was quite a miricle considering when the vets looked at him they told us to put him down, because "he wasn't going to make it throught the night." He eventually healed completely exept a slight limp from the two toes he was missing. Anyways, the dog was at the shelter for over a year. A lady came in and adopted him but unfortunately had to bring him back because her other collie was beating up on him. A couple weeks later the provincial SPCA came in to do their check. The next day the collie was euthanized and my manager was fired and charged with cruelty to animals for keeping the dog alive.

Anyways, thank you for everyones views on this whole matter. And I totally agree to disagree. Keep up the good work with your rescue dogs.

Jacie

[LISA127]

Jacie,
lol....No, I wasn't making fun of what you said. The reason I worded it that way is a local dog pound found her as a stray. She's very sweet and loving. She looks 100% german shepard, so they put "looks to be purebred" in her description. I was just quoting them....lol.
What a sad story about that collie x pup. It's amazing what these poor creatures have to go through. :(
That's the thing about rescue work, it really gets to you after a while. I at one point had to take a year off from any kind of shelter/rescue work because emotionally I just couldn't take it anymore. And the amazing thing is, with everything these dogs are put through, they usually continue to love us humans. Maybe we could learn something from them.
Lisa