Creamsicles - color coming in

[vanderkm]

These hatchlings (creamsicle cross with butter corn) are starting to color up quite nicely. I am especially pleased with my two keeper males that have quite strong orange tones. The females were all more reddish than orange in this clutch, but I did get a couple orange females.

Males

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/63P1010042_cream_baby_1.jpg

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/63P1010051_cream_baby_6_reduce.jpg

Female (not a keeper - just to show the red toned creams)
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/63P1010172_cream_female_reduced.jpg

This clutch feeds like I cannot believe - everything offered every time - wish all my corns were as cooperative.

Another clutch of creams (cream male by striped female) produced this male
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/63P1010124_Spike_reduced.jpg

and this female
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/63P1010198_Charley_reduced.jpg

still with orange - more sherberty tones - but virtually impossible to distinguish from pure corns without knowing their background is creamsicle. This was a very small clutch and the female is tiny (less than half the size of other hatchlings) but she pound the pinkies back. Have to keep her! Really like how even the saddles are in this clutch.

mary v.

[Simon]

You're most definately right~
its hard to tell which ones are the cream and which ones are the corns without knowing the background.....

you can definately see the affect from the butter though~~

[king nick]

nice colours

[Jeff_Favelle]

Sweeeeet!

[bighillreptiles]

will be nice to see tham grow up and the color changes as thay grow
Paul Van Hooser

[Colonel_SB]

I like them both but that male is extra sweet :)

[ultimatecorns]

If you say the are a result of a Creamsicle x Butter, then they are all Amelanistic het for Emoryi and Caramel. Here is a Creamsicle: http://www.ultimatecornsnakes.com/DSC01901.JPG

[vanderkm]

Ultimatecorns - very nice creamsicle baby!! Any pics of your adults??

I have tended to use the term creamsicle to encompass all emoryi crosses I produce when, in fact, those from both clutches above are at most 25% emoryi with 75% corn. One of the difficulties arising from crossing creamsicle lines back into pure corn is that there is no term to distinguish them from either line.

I agree the hatchlings I posted pics of are amelanistic het caramel, but hesitate to refer to them as amels because people tend to believe that means pure corn.

I disagree that they could be referred to as 'het Emoryi'. The 'het' designation is used for a heterozygous state with reference to simple recessive, single gene mutations like amel or caramel. I don't believe it can be correctly used to indicate a mixture of multiple genes - most with multiple alleles inherited in a variety of ways - that occurs when two different species are mixed.

For those of us who choose to work with creamsicles, I wish there was an established way to distinguish the degree of mixture in the lines without giving estimates of % emory, %corn in offspring - but haven't heard of one yet.

mary v.

[ultimatecorns]

Thanx. Yeah I know what you mean about distinguishing the degree of mixture. When i said het Emoryi, LOL, I didnt know how to put it any other way, b/c it carries the Emoryi gene and/or maybe expresses it to. I will try to figure a method out. The term Creamsicle probrably shouldn't be used to refer to other hybrids, the term is used more or less for the Morph of the snake. I have another hybrid between the Cornsnake and Emoryi. Its the end result of breeding a Hypo Corn to an Emoryi. Which is now nicknamed Cinnamon Corn. I have some Cinnamon Stripe hatchlings this year too. :)

[vanderkm]

Will have to come up with a new name - emoryicorn, cornemoryi or something!!! LOL.

Agree the 'creamsicle' term is best restricted to the morph - but until something else comes up to encompass the whole group of emoryi X corns, creamsicle tends to get used for the crosses as a whole and even changed to reflect the genetics - have heard buttercream, snowcream and simliar names used.

Have seen pics of your cinnamons as well as some from other lines owned by others and they are very appealing. I would love to get the combination with the ultrahypo - think that would be outstanding even compared with the standard cinnamon.

Look forward to seeing more of your contributions on this forum - always great to have more conversation about corns (and their variants),

mary v.

[ultimatecorns]

Yeah. New name. Hmmm. How about Elaphe Guttata Hybrid and the you give all the genetics on the strain. I.E. Creamsicle Corn, Advertise it with the name of Morph with following either Corn or Emoryi depending on which has more influence, then Elaphe Guttata Hybrid. Then in description give a Genotypical report of the hybrid. Creamsicle Corn. Elaphe Guttata Hybrid. This is a cross between an Albino Cornsnake and a Normal Emoryi. 75% Cornsnake and 25% Emoryi.

Creamsicle Stripe. Elaphe Guttata Hybrid. This is a cross between an Albino Stripe Corn and a Normal Emoryi. 87.5% Cornsnake and 12.5% Emoryi.
( A Creamsicle got crossed with an Albino Stripe creating Albino carrying genes for Emoryi and Stripe, Albino Strip is 100% Corn mix it with Creamsicle that is 75% Corn and you average the to giving you Creamsicle Stripe 87.5% Corn)

Rootbeer. Elaphe Guttata Hybrid. This is a cross with a Normal Corn and Normal Emoryi. 50% Cornsnake and 50% Emoryi.

That might work. LOL

[gonesnakee]

You guys & the genetics are giving me a headache LOL I'm glad to have some of Mary's babies anyway, yes & no actually. More Corns to keep now LOL & ultimatecorn, Killer snake dude! Mark

[ultimatecorns]

Thanx gonesnakee. Yeah this does cause headaches. LOL.

[vanderkm]

I do like the Elaphe/Guttata hybrid designation with the percentages - definitely the most specific - but pretty long and not 'catchy'. As long as it goes along with some of the fun names like cinnnamon, creamsicle and root beer - will work great.

I actually really think getting estimated percentages is good and something I would look for when buying these guys. I have introduced pure GPRat this year and would like to keep creamsicles at about 50% but it is hard to do when you want to include some of the pattern and color morphs from pure corns. Takes a few generations to get back to the 50% emoryi and retain the desired characters from guttata.

mary v.

[ultimatecorns]

Yeah I like it to. bit lengthy but just advetise the name of the hybrid and then put the technicalities on the description. Plus people should know that Rootbeer corns can only be 50/50 Corn and Emoryi, neverless nevermore. Creamsicle is 75% Corn and 25% Emoryi always, this cant change. Creamsicle Stripe or Creamsicle Motley is always 87.5% Corn and 12.5% Emoryi. Also unadjustable.
You see what I mean, to have a real Creamsicle (as in the one i put a pic of) they must have 75% Corn and 25% Emoryi. This can never change if it is a true Creamsicle because that is the genetic makeup of it. So even if you breed it back to a Normal Emoryi, youll get Normal Emoryi het for Albino Corn. When you breed those babies back, you have a chance to get Creamsicles, but they will still have the same percentages as the originals. The percentages can never change.

[vanderkm]

Not sure I understand who has established that creamsicle is 75% corn and 25% emoryi - I know that is how they were created, but who has made these percentages 'unadjustable'? Same for the 'rootbeer' and the other creamsicle morphs - who has set the criteria on the genetic makeup of these morphs and how is it agreed to?

I understand if it is your opinion that these should be how the names are used, but it is not my impression that these are adhered to or commonly used in the industry. I definitely see people marketing and promoting that any amel corn/emoryi hybrid that has even 10% or less emoryi in it should be called a creamsicle - not that I agree with that - but seems to be more the trend in the industry than sticking to the original percentages that the morphs were created with!

I see the value in the system you propose - would be nice if something like that was generally accepted - but what I disagree with is your statement that what these guys are called is 'unadjustable' because I think that as things currently exist - these names are very undefined.

I also disagree with your statement that if you breed a creamsicle (75/25) back to pure emoryi (0/100) you get normal emoryi het for albino corn. I know it is likely a short-cut with language - but I would argue that this hybrid is not (and never could be) a normal emoryi and it is not het for albino corn. I think it is more accurate to refer to it as a rootbeer (for the coloration and implied hybridization) that is 50/50 and het for amelanism. I like the idea of guttata/emoryi (50/50) het for amel even better.

Is the baby in your picture a result of creamsicle by creamsicle breeding or do you create new creamsicles (like an F2 each time) from amel corn to rootbeer each generation? Would love to see some photos of your adult breeding stock - Creamsicles (however they are defined - LOL) were the first corns I ever got to handle and have been favorites of mine since we first got into snakes - before we realized all the controversy involved!

mary v.

[ultimatecorns]

Yeah the percentage thing is very complicated. lol. Ill get some pics shortly of the adult creamsicles. All my creamsicles for sale are the product of Creamsicle 75/25 (lol) x Creamsicle 75/25.

[MouseKilla]

Originally posted by ultimatecorns
...Rootbeer corns can only be 50/50 Corn and Emoryi, neverless nevermore. Creamsicle is 75% Corn and 25% Emoryi always, this cant change. Creamsicle Stripe or Creamsicle Motley is always 87.5% Corn and 12.5% Emoryi. Also unadjustable.


I have trouble with these numbers as well. I agree that Rootbeers are 50/50 but, while it is certainly possible to breed a creamsicle that is 75/25, I don't see why that is the only way.

I thought a creamsicle was produced by producing first rootbeers with an emoryi to amel corn breeding then breeding the offspring either to the original amel corn (75/25) or to a sibling (50/50).

Am I missing something here or is it not possible to maintain the even ratio regardless of the number of recessive traits you plug into the equation?

Silly genetics stuff aside, I love all of those creams. Those motleys are very cool and I know Mary is cooking up some amazing stuff too, the one pictured being a very cool prelude to spectacular things to come.

[ultimatecorns]

Yes, a Creamsicle was made by breeding a n Albino to a Rootbeer I believe. The Rootbeer (50/50) crossed with an Albino Corn (100/0) makes a Creamsicle (75/25). This is true even if you bred an Albino (100/0) x a Normal Emoryi (0/100) because the Albino Corn is carrying the Normal Corn Gene simply because it is the dominant Gene of the Corn species, thats why when you cross two recessive snakes that aren't similar or het for any trait the other one has,ie Anery x Albino, you get Normal. Same in the case of Albino Corn (100/0) x Emoryi (0/100), the Albino corn is still holding genes for dominance (Normal Corn). The offspring will be Rootbeers, or a generation from true rootbeers, but the babies will be 50/50 and het for Albino Corn 100/0. So when you breed those babies eventually you have a 1/4 chance of getting a Creamsicle I belive which would then be 75/25. You basically add the number of traits from the Corn side and the traits from Emoryi side that you ultimatly want to produce. Say Snow Corn x Normal Emoryi. Snows have 3 Corn genes in them, Albino, Anery, and they always carry the dominat trait of the species (Normal Corn). You will gfet Rootbeers (50/50) that are het Anery (100/0) and Albino (100/0) you have a 1/16 chance of hacthing out a Snow Emoryi Corn (which would be 87.5/12.5). To find this perc entage out, you add the first trait, any order, Albino (100/0) with a Rootbeer (50/50) you get 100+50=150/2=75 (Creamsicle 75/25). Then you add 100+75=175/2=87.5 you divide by to cause you finding the average. You couldve just added the Albino's 100/0 plus the Anery's 100/0 to the Rootbeer's 50/50 giving you 250/50 and divide 250 by 3 giving you 87.5, then subtract it from 100 giving you the Emoryi's side of it 12.5 so a Snowsicle. lol, would be 87.5/12.5 just like the Creamsicle stripe, they bothe have 3 Corn traits and 1 Emoryi Trait. BTW I am working on a reverse Creamsicle Projsct. I am breeding an Albino EMORYI with a Corn. Offspring will be Rootbeer 50/50, their offspring will be Reverse Creamsicles, in that the Albinism gene will be coming from the Emoryi side rather the Corn, these reverse Creamsicles will be 25/75, that is so cool!!! Im not gonna call it reverse Creamsicle though, I will come up with a marketable name but what ever it is it will be Blank Emoryi, where Blank is the given name to the specimen.

[vanderkm]

I think the introduction of the amelanism gene from emoryi has interesting potential - especially because the two forms of amel (that in corns and that in emoryi) are not alleles. Will be interesting to see if there is masking between them or if there is some additive effect.

Look forward to seeing some pics of your adult breeding stock - especially the creamsicles.

I follow your description above and agree that the original creamsicles came from amel corn crossed with normal emoryi to produce 50/50 rootbeers that were then bred back to amel corns or to each other to produce creamsicles - but like mousekilla says, the composition of these creamsicles would depend upon which breeding they came from. Those from rootbeer siblings would be 50/50 and those from rootbeer back to amel corn would be 75/25, so no way to assert that even all original creamsicles were 75/25. It would very much depend on who did the selection, how many times they backcrossed to amel corn and how diluted the emoryi became over time. I susupec that many of the creamsicles currently marketed are anywhere between 10-75% emoryi, and there are very few that can substantiate the percentages in their stock. Much current selection is based on color and pattern, withoug regard for percentages, and very few who are breeding back to the emoryi on a regular basis.

Looking forward to seeing pics of your creamsicles and any rootbeers you produce from the reverse project!

mary v.

[ultimatecorns]

Thanx, i wont however be crossing the two Albino Genes, I dont want to open a can of irreverssable worms. Anyways, again a true Creamsicle is 75/25. Even if you bred it to an Albino 100/0, the off spring would not be Creamsicle, they would be Albino het Creamsicle.When you breed Albino het Creamsicle the Creamsicles that come out will again be 75/25. I have backed up my side of the debate, lol. I am interested in you using detailed example like this, but to prove your point. Alright cool.

[vanderkm]

Ok - but this is going to be long!! This is based on my understanding of genetics - apologies to those who will be bored - don't bother to read!!

Originally posted by ultimatecorns
Yes, a Creamsicle was made by breeding a n Albino to a Rootbeer I believe. The Rootbeer (50/50) crossed with an Albino Corn (100/0) makes a Creamsicle (75/25).

True - and I am interpreting your percentages here (75/25) as the porportion of the total genetic makeup of a creamsicle that comes from cornsnake vs emoryi. All the 50/50 rootbeers will be het for the amel gene, and if bred to an amel corn, 50% of the offspring will express the amel characteristic and be called creamsicles. They will have 75% of their total genetic material from corn and 25% from emoryi.

If you breed the 50/50 rootbeers to each other, 25% of the offspring will express the amel characteristic and could be called creamsicles (because they are hybrids and they look like creamsicles) but those creamsicles will have derived 50% of their total genetic material from emoryi and 50% from corn.

I think it is important to distinguish percentages that determine how much total genetic material comes from one species vs another, and the percentage probability that an individual will express a trait such as amelanism.

Originally posted by ultimatecorns
This is true even if you bred an Albino (100/0) x a Normal Emoryi (0/100) because the Albino Corn is carrying the Normal Corn Gene simply because it is the dominant Gene of the Corn species, thats why when you cross two recessive snakes that aren't similar or het for any trait the other one has,ie Anery x Albino, you get Normal.

This is where we differ in approach - if I understand correctly, you are treating 'Normal corn' as if it was a single gene locus (when you say 'the dominant gene of the corn species') and I don't believe it can be considered that way. 'Normal' or 'wild' type is typically the dominant, common version of any of the simple recessive mutations that exist. So there is a Normal for expression of melanin that exists where the amel mutation could appear, there is a Normal for 'red color' where the anery mutation appears, etc. There isn't a 'Normal' for corn where an 'emoryi' mutation would appear (or the other way around) - there is not a single gene locus that can be applied this way - to my knowledge.

Forgive me if this is repeating the obvious, but I am thinking as I write - the reason you get a normal appearing corn when you cross an amel corn with an anery corn (neither het for the other) is that the genes for amel and anery are located on different sites on the chromosome and an amel will have two copies of dominant 'normal melanism' at the anery location. Similarly, the anery will have two copies of 'normal red' at the amel locus. The offspring will all get one copy of the normal and one of the recessive gene at each of these locations - making them all appear normal (express both red and melanin) but carry the recessive (be het) for amel and anery.

Originally posted by ultimatecorns
Same in the case of Albino Corn (100/0) x Emoryi (0/100), the Albino corn is still holding genes for dominance (Normal Corn). The offspring will be Rootbeers, or a generation from true rootbeers, but the babies will be 50/50 and het for Albino Corn 100/0.

Agree here - babies are 50% from each species. I maintain that they are het for amelanism as a trait, but not het for 'Albino corn' at 100/0 because I beleive that to accept this would be to treat 'Corn' as if it was a single gene - which I don't think you can do.

Originally posted by ultimatecorns
So when you breed those babies eventually you have a 1/4 chance of getting a Creamsicle I belive which would then be 75/25. You basically add the number of traits from the Corn side and the traits from Emoryi side that you ultimatly want to produce.

I agree with first statement. The second applies if you treat corn and emoryi as single gene traits, but not if you are looking at determining the actual percentage of corn species genes and emoryi species genes in the hybrids. I believe they have to be counted as equal still because you have not introduced more 'corn' into the mix - you have just re-sorted the corn and emoryi that was already there.

Originally posted by ultimatecorns
Say Snow Corn x Normal Emoryi. Snows have 3 Corn genes in them, Albino, Anery, and they always carry the dominat trait of the species (Normal Corn). You will gfet Rootbeers (50/50) that are het Anery (100/0) and Albino (100/0) you have a 1/16 chance of hacthing out a Snow Emoryi Corn (which would be 87.5/12.5).

This is a nice example to look at because it separates out the points of view. When you do a calculation with het anery and het amel as 100/0 for the percentage corn/emoryi and mix them with rootbeer as 50/50, you give equal weight to each single recessive gene as you do to the whole combined genetic makeup of two species. I believe these have to be kept separate.

I agree you have a 1/16 chance of a snow baby, but I would maintain that amel and anery are two every small components of the whole genetics of that final snake, and the 50/50 percentage of corn/emoryi will be what is maintained in the following generation. Again - you aren't really adding more 'cornness' by dealing with two recessives that arise from corns, those genes are sorting independently of the degree of corn and emoryi which is staying the same - until more corn or emoryi is added.

Originally posted by ultimatecorns
To find this perc entage out, you add the first trait, any order, Albino (100/0) with a Rootbeer (50/50) you get 100+50=150/2=75 (Creamsicle 75/25). Then you add 100+75=175/2=87.5 you divide by to cause you finding the average. You couldve just added the Albino's 100/0 plus the Anery's 100/0 to the Rootbeer's 50/50 giving you 250/50 and divide 250 by 3 giving you 87.5, then subtract it from 100 giving you the Emoryi's side of it 12.5 so a Snowsicle. lol, would be 87.5/12.5 just like the Creamsicle stripe, they bothe have 3 Corn traits and 1 Emoryi Trait.

I appreciate the time you took to work through all the calculations and explanations because it helped me understand that you are not asserting the 75/25 percent for creamsicles or the other percentages for other varieites based on your opinion only. I can now follow your logic in how you arrive at that with calculations, but I disagree still because I don't treat emoryi as a 'trait' - I treat it as a 'species' and give it a weight equal to all the combined 'corn' recessive traits, not equal to only one trait.

Hope I have explained myself clearly enough - I know I have repeated myself - hard to explain in writing - would be easier with conversations and drawings - LOL!

mary v.

[MouseKilla]

Thanks Mary, I certainly couldn't have illustrated those points any better or any more briefly, I'm sure now that at least you and I are on the same page.

I believe most or all of the confusion comes from treating either corn or emoryi as dominant or recessive. I won't beat up on that point too much more but in my mind when you cross corn to emoryi the resulting offspring are not corns nor are they GPRs, they are a third, hybridized variety that we call rootbeers.

The infusion of recessive traits from corn bloodlines does not dilute the amount of genetic material that is derived from emoryi necessarily. In fact, it is equally possible to reverse the ratio of corn to emoryi in a hybrid bloodline through additional infusions of emoryi blood while still passing on recessive traits that originally arose in corn lines.

I'm sure that I'm just repeating what Mary is saying in clumsier words but hey, what else are forums for?

My God, are we nerds or what? lol!

[vanderkm]

Right Mike - in fact I see some things like the uniform, clean saddle pattern, the somewhat distinctive head markings, the greater hatchling size and smaller clutch size that to me are advantages from the emoryi, along with the reduction in reds and enhanced oranges that come from the emoryi - those are things I would like to retain in my creamsicles (or corn/emoryi - whatever they will be called!!).

I believe attaining this will require both selection for the pattern traits and regular infusion of pure emoryi (or at least going back repeatedly to rootbeers) to try and obtain a creamsicle that is about 50/50. Will be interesting to see if I can work it out along with playing in the other pattern abnormalities. Really want to pull the bloodred genes in!

mary v.

[ultimatecorns]

Oh! lol. I see where my mistake is. Once you have a Rootbeer (50/50) if you cross it to an Albino Corn (100/0) That Albino doesnt add another layer of Normal onto it.!!! This would produce offspring het Albino. there are only 2 parts Corn and 1 part Emoryi. I used to see the Albino Corn have 2 parts in ALL cases. this would produce a Creamsicle (66.7/33.3).
I think I have solved it! There Are 2 basic rules to follow:
1. When breeding a Normal Corn to a Normal Emoryi. It becomes 1 part Corn and 1 part Emoryi (50/50)
2. When you add an Amel or a single recessive corn to this Rootbeer, It already has the Cornsnake Normal (Dominant) gene in it. There fore this rule is that when creating some variation of a hybrid, you count whatever it is only how many recessive genes you are introducing because the dominant trait is there.

Here is rule 2's Statement: If mixing in recessive traits to a hybrid that already has that species' dominant trait, you cumulate the number of recessive genes being introduced and add that number to its sides' "values", respectivly.
Therefore, if you combine a Snow(100%/0%)(2 parts Corn/0 parts Emoryi) by Rootbeer(50%/50%)(1 parts Corn/1 parts Emoryi) you add Snows' parts (2 parts Corn/0 parts Emoryi) and Rootbeers' parts (1 parts Corn/1 parts Emoryi): 2pc (partscorn)+ 1pc= 3pc. 0pe (partsemoryi)+ 1pe= 1pe. Then take the total pc and pe add and divide from 100: 3pc+1pe=4p. 100%/4=25% pps (percent per part) Then, multiply the ppp by pc and pe giving you the poi (percent of influence): 25%x3pc=75%c, 25%x1=25%e. A Snow x Rootbeer end result would be 75/25poi (3pc/1pe)

Heres rule 1 statement: When Crossing for first time you add the reccessive genes of the snake and its dominant ones to get its p and poi. Example: Albino Corn crossed with an Emoryi. Add the Albinos Corns reccessive and dominant trait: Only in rule 1 case do you do this because the hybrid needs to have both species' dominant trait. whereas rule two pertains to the hybrid already has it. Anyways this is 2pc and the Emoryi is 1pe. 2pc + 1pe = 3p. 100%/3p= 33.3%ppp. 33.3%ppp x 2pc= 66.7%c 33.3%ppp x 1pc= 33.3%e. Therefore the Creamsicle outcome (end result of breeding) will be 66.7/33.3 (2pc/1pe)=pps: parts per side) When crossing Normal Corn x Normal Emoryi, Normal Corn= 1pc and Normal Emoryi = 1pe

Aha! Lets practice now:
FIND THE "poi" and "pps"
Rule 1 exercises:
1. Anery x Rootbeer
2. Blizzard x Rootbeer
3. Butter Stripe x Rootbeer

Rule 2 exercises:
4. Anery x Emoryi (Normal Emoryi)
5. Charcoal x Emoryi
6. Blizzard x Emoryi
7. Opal x Emoryi
8. Butter Stripe x Emoryi
9. Snow Motley x Emoryi

Hint: #1 and #4 are the same answer, 2 & 6, 3 & 8 are same.

Here is another example for what i want you to do:
Problem:
Caramel(100/0) x Rootbeer(50/50)
Work:
Caramel=1pc
Rootbeer=1pc 1pe
1pc + 1pc = 2pc and 1pe + 0pe =1pe
2pc + 1pe = 3p
100%/3p= 33.3ppp
33.3 x 2pc = 66.7%Corn
33.3 x 1pe = 33.3%Emoryi
POI=66.7/33.3
PPS=2pc/1pe
Answer:
A snake expressing both Caramel and Rootbeer is 66.7/33/3 (POI) and 2pc/1pe (PPS)


This is so awesome!!! Try it!!!

[MouseKilla]

Say what now?lol!

Man, I gotta tell ya, I didn't follow that one bit but you cook up some cool snakes and that's what counts in my mind.

[ultimatecorns]

Thanx. Yeah it is a bit confusing at first.

[vanderkm]

Would love to have the time to respond in detail, (yeah I know - I still end up writing a novel!) but have a hectic day today and then our local reptile show this weekend, so will be a while before I get back to the Forum.

I see what you have changed in your approach and understand that you are trying to create an index that measures what you are calling ' percentage of influence' (poi) that will let you assess how much impact the emoryi and the various traits from corns have in the final progeny.

I can see how you have done your calculations and don't have many problems with the math (except for in the second paragraph where you have 3pc + 3pe = 4p - thought that should be 6??). But overall, your poi is not a measure that I would find useful - nor do I think it could be represented as a standard that is used in the industry as a whole.

I prefer to keep the percentage corn and emoryi separate from the inheritance of single recessive genes.

The percentage corn and emoryi can be calculated by creating a pedigree diagram for a clutch in question. The pedigree should go back to the first generation where all animals are pure corn or pure emoryi. How far back it goes depends on how much crossbreeding has been done. As an example

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/63gentics_of_corn_emoryi-med.jpg

The amel, anery, caramel, stiped or het status of these animals wouldn't matter relative to the percentage influence of corn vs emoryi in their overall genetic mix.

In the greatgrandparent generation - all animals are either pure corn or pure emoryi. If you add up the corns (3) and the emoryi (5) out of the total 8 grandparents you get 3/8 = 37.5% corn and 62.5% emoryi for this clutch. You can add generations or change the composition of generations as needed. I just find it easier to understand with pictures. This give me the percentage of corn vs. emoryi in any clutch - completely independent of recessive genes.

I deal with individual genes according to typical punnett squares - actually I use the computer programs for quick calculations - cheating I know, but I hate doing all the math! I don't find it useful to merge single recessives with the overall genetic content of a species to indicate degree of influence because I don't think having two or more recessive genes from corns is the equivalent of the genetic load that comes from a whole different species or subspecies.

But I do understand most of your calcuations and I think I see what you are using this for in your own breeding program. If it helps you achieve better cornsnakes - then that it the whole idea!! Interesting discussions!

off to get ready for the show!

mary v.