View Full Version : how do you disiplin a corn?
I am so0o upset ..............but mostly just stoopid. I HAD 6 2and a half month old baby corns -
So I was cleaning up two days ago and decided they could go in with some yearlyings because there is a small - oh maybe 6-8month old in with them that seems to be doing fine. I put them in and seriously watched for 2-3hours and everything was going fine.
Then next day I checked and some were sleeping with the bigger ones so I thought everything will be fine for sure.
The day after that I came home and my bf said he was cleaning out the poop when he could only find two babies. Surey, I thought, Everything must be fine - They are probably just hiding in the branches.
After a quick look to prove my that my bf was just far more interested in his vids that the snakes turned into a frantic tear down of the living room - an idea hit me
......Maybe....nooo........Corn snakes don`t eat other snakes.....but where....oh gawd
I pick up my male (who once again has always been a little fiesty)
and found thay he was exceptionally fatter than usual. Upon closer examanation I realized, no sorry, FELT the three snakes in his belly - in fact they were moving - at least 2 were.
My first instinct was to cut the sucker open - but quickly realized I can`t do that - Feeding them mice is hard enough
I also suddenly thought of a picture I came across on the internet where one snake ate another and it came out all rotted away from the acids in its belly
My second indiction was to spank it - yes spank it *shakes head*
Thats what I do to my dogs and cats anyways - one firm tap on the bum.....yeah thats gonna work with a snake right (besides I think its prolly me who needs that for being so careless)
Anyways that was my day -
The misadventures of breeding - I don`t think I have ever learned as much in a year
Anyone else lost any snakes this way?:confused:
I am sorry for your lose but the reason for it is right here:
"Corn snakes don`t eat other snakes"
Yes. Corn snakes DO eat other snakes, and cannabilism is not THAT rare, especially amongst younger speciemens. Again I am sorry for your loss, but most people do not house snakes together even for a few minutes to avoid this exact same problem. I hope you have better luck next year.
Marisa
YEah thats weird because I know a lot of people that keep corns together. I have 5 together is a 250gl tank with all kinds of hides and branches and stuff and they are ranging from 8 mnths to 1 1/2 and they all seem to be fine too - Then I have two others in a 150 gal tank that are 3 yr olds. I never had any problems before. Are you sugesting that I seperate them all. I have enough tanks to do it I have just always seen them housed together and only taken apart for feeding.
sassmuffin
09-19-04, 05:57 PM
I'm sorry for your loss and at least you know now not to trust those guys just because they aren't commonly said to be cannibals...
But I'm still laughing at the fact that your second instinct was to spank it. The visual is just too much...oh man.
I would DEFINITLY seperate all your snakes.
Snakes have no reason to be housed together. Not only have you already lost some to the risk of cannabilisim, there are MANY other reasons to get each it's own enclosure. It's the PROPER way to keep snakes.
When housing together you can pass sickness, loose snakes to other snakes, never know if one regurgs, etc etc.
When housing seperate, all those risks are gone.
Marisa
Ydnic Corn Babys are crazy do not keep them together as babies!!
I have read alot of posts and everyone makes this mistake for the first time, you might as well label baby corns as canniblistic but alot of people will say no you can keep them together bla bla but theirs lots of proof and pictures that often come up! I just wish one day i can put a kingsnake in my corns aqaurium and let the corn eat it so i can rub it in to all the kingsnake milk snake fans i declare war !!!! muhahaha
Sorry to hear about your loss
but I have posted pictures of corns eating one an other.
Even hatchling with hatchlings.
This is NOT THAT UMCOMMON.....and this is also another reason why I have always adviced people not to keep corns or any snakes together. They can eat each other.......
I have posted lots of these pictures too~
Oh well....hope that its a lesson learned.....even though the hard way~~
gonesnakee
09-20-04, 12:24 PM
School of hard knocks isn't fun. All snakes irreguardless of species should be housed seperately except for breeding purposes. As stated individual housing prevents cannibalism & cross contamination of specimens as well as unwanted breedings (possibly leading to eggbinding of young females). You can't tell who is deficating regularily or who my have regurged etc. etc. plus the fact that despite appearing fine the snakes are living in constant stress as all animals develop a "pecking order" when kept in groups & the dominant ones will dominate. I guess you know who the dominant one is now eh? Good Luck in the future, Mark
Sorry for your loss.
This would not have happened if you would have just researched the proper care of cornsnakes or any snake in the case of housing together. I'm not going to say anymore because it seems you have already learned the hard way. Just remember in the future to READ everything you can about anything you plan to care for.
~ Hooter
Colonel_SB
09-20-04, 01:49 PM
Ha ha ha ha you don't its that simple!
Brent Strande
09-21-04, 11:27 AM
excuse me while I go and spank my snake... ;)
one time i bought a garter snake, 3 days later she had about 8 babies, i gave most of them away and kept 2. one repeatedly escaped while some how the other did not. i believe it was the 3rd time the one got away i put it back with its sybling and the next day one was again missing but i knew the one that was in the cage was the one that kept escaping and boy was he fat. i ended up geting rid of him. i dont even want to try to house snakes together that MIGHT try and do that.
Hooter:
I appreciate the information you have offered up - but just so you know I did plenty of research into these things. Many people I know and many enclosures I`ve seen keep snakes together and since most of mine have been living in one type of a community atmosphere or another for well over a year now I saw no problems. Yes I did figure out the hard way. I don`t think you should assume that I do not know or take "proper care" of my reptiles because that would be an unfair assumption...how ever thank you for your concern
Gonesnake:
"0.1 Anery Corn & 0.1 Amel Corn these are 2002's that were sold as pets & kept in a community setup & both are now proven as a result "
JUst with what you mensioned in your above post - I am wondering how you would know it is okay with these snake to have them in a community.
You see it is so confusing - because I see and read so much about keeping them together and building a community - then you all tell me thats the worst thing you can do
SO now I am placing them all back in seperate tanks (luckily I have the tanks for it)
So now I have 11 different aquariums in my dining room even though 8 are going into cooling in a month anyways.
And now I see that you do keep them in a community setting and in fact state that "both are now proven as a result "
Please can you explain to me why or how you can tell these things because I had thought every thing was going fine until I admittidly did some tthing as stoopid as throwing the babies in to the mix.
Originally posted by ydnic
Hooter:
I appreciate the information you have offered up - but just so you know I did plenty of research into these things. Many people I know and many enclosures I`ve seen keep snakes together and since most of mine have been living in one type of a community atmosphere or another for well over a year now I saw no problems. Yes I did figure out the hard way. I don`t think you should assume that I do not know or take "proper care" of my reptiles because that would be an unfair assumption...how ever thank you for your concern
I'm sorry but it didn't sound like you did your research when you didn't expect your hatchling corn to be cannibalistic. That's akin to someone keeping calkings together and being surprised when they find one big fat snake. Also, keep in mind that just cos some people get away with communally keeping snakes, doesn't mean you will. There is always a risk involved and you only have yourself to blame. Don't mean to make you feel worse (as you probably blame yourself already) but denying that you didn't do enough research isn't "cool" (for lack of a better word). :)
Hope this is a lesson to all those who think they can get away with keeping known cannibalistic species together. You don't always win. :(
Artemis
09-23-04, 10:11 AM
ok forget the debate about the snakes, I wanna know how dude got so articulate from the first post to the latter ones. Remarkable. Almost feels intentional, such a striking difference. The tone, grammar, everything...
We went from "oh gawd" and splitting suckers open and spanking them to arguing about what a knowledgeable herper we are.
People answered you based on your first posts, which is not nearly as articulate as your arguments about us assuming you are not a knowledgable herper, and i say if you want people to address you on "your level" (and believe me my friend if you know this hobby at all then you have to admit their are people keeping any number of animals at ALL levels) then you should speak in those articulate terms from the getgo. Ask a question, get an answer on the same level you asked it. If you want to start tossing around latin names of things, there are plenty of folks here who can hang with that, too.
So im curious, exactly how well informed would you yourself say you are about cornsnakes and their "proper care?"
All the advice, including mine, is to separate them, or let them eat each other. You know now from your own personal experience that it can happen. If you want to chance it happening again, by all means leave them in together. If you dont want to risk losing another snake this way, separate them. As marisa originally pointed out, its better for a lot of reasons other than just cannibalism prevention.
You know I hate the internet for several reasons
Everything comes across as however an individual wants to interprate it...I am sorry if I came across in such a way that I seemed arrogant or accusitory - That was not the case and I can tell from some of the posted replies that it must have come across that way because I am now feeling attacked
As for my grammer I don`t even want to touch that - I mean 'com-mon' I am sorry for using slang when telling a somewhat assuming storey - I guess thats just my charactor other wise I don`t know what to tell you
For one reason or another I thought this was a community forum where I might ask more experianced keepers their thoughts and opions on what I am doing with my hobby - and perhaps get involved with different events, meet people in my local area, and not be judged for my ideas or misgivings
I also automatically respect everyone on here to a certain degree because a lot of you have something that I don`t - experiance
Once again I am on this forum for a reason - knowledge
It seems for the most part people on here are very helpful and aren`t interested in attacing each other over a different perspective of handling of care
Once again I don`t claim to know everything about caring for my reptiles wheather it be snakes or lizards, but what I do claim is that I do research my animals and what would be best for them
I do understand that canibalism between hatchlings is common - but the one that ate them was a 2yr old jungle corn (heheh - until yesterday I thought is was called a 'pastel' jungle until Tim told me otherwise :p ). He lives with another jungle that is 2 and a 7mnth old - so i was suprised that he ate them was all I was saying
As for the question I asked gonesnake I am very serious on how you know which one you can keep together to have a community
because if there is anyway you can tell it would really be helpful.
Once again thanx for your imput and I hope to meet some of you at the TARAS show this weekend - I am so excited - now if I could just figure out wherew the 'Big four Building' is...
There are some snakes that do better in a community setting than others. Kenyan sand boas and Australian spotted pythons to name two. Most people however will still discourage keeping more than one animal per cage, but if that is something you would like to try then these are the animals I would suggest. Good luck and happy herpin!!
Dave
vanderkm
09-23-04, 01:31 PM
Ydnic - I think you are right that most people on the forums here attempt to be helpful and that you can gain lots of knowledge from participating here.
It is very difficult to communicate individual personality through writing - especially when people don't have some sense of who you are and may not know how to take your comments.
My advice is not to take comments too personally - look for the knowledge that is there, but look beyond the actual words.
I can't say for sure, but I will offer an opinion on what Mark (gonesnakee) meant in the portion of his ad that you quoted - I believe he was being sarcastic with his comment that these corns are 'proven as a result' - not that he was promoting this as a way to develop proven breeders.
I think that someone else owned them before Mark got them back, and they had housed them in a communal tank - there were males and females mixed and the females were bred and laid eggs as a result. I don't think Mark meant to suggest that this was a good arrangement, especially in view of his comment further down in the ad stating that both girls are too small to be bred and should be fed well to be considered for breeding next year. I don't believe Mark keeps any snakes in communal tanks as part of his normal husbandry, because of the risks associated with that. But again, I am basing my interpretation on what I know of Mark, how he tends to say things and what I know of his breeding operation.
I don't believe there are ways to have a community tank without accepting some risk - of cannibalism, of breeding too early, or of disease transmission. This is not to say that it is not done - or that you can't do it - just that you should know the risks. We are not prepared to accept the risks of housing snakes together so we don't do it. That is likely the most common opinion among people in the hobby, and certainly is the most commonly expressed on this forum.
The risk you took by keeping jungle corns together is actually quite high for cannibalism - the fact that they are a cross between cornsnakes and california kingsnakes makes them much more likely to eat cagemates, especially those that are smaller than they are - because the california kingsnake naturally preys on snakes. I think you have been very lucky in housing two jungle corns together without having this happen before, although some of them are not as aggressive toward other snakes.
I would encourage you to continue to participate in this forum and gain knowledge from others in the hobby - but keep in mind that often replies to questions are made quickly - people are busy - and have responded to the same issues before and can be quick to blame when things that are preventable happen. Some people have very strong opinions - I avoided responding to this and similar posts for a while because it gets hard to be polite and sympathetic over preventable errors.
There is a lot to be gained from this forum once you learn whose opinions to value and whose to ignore.
mary v.
Well, for a starter, I wouldn't keep in a community any species that eats other snakes regularily. Jungle corns are not even cornsnakes. They are corn/king (california king?) hybrids. Given that kingsnakes are snake-eaters their whole lives, and given that corns eat snakes particularily as youngsters, but even occasionally as adults, I think it's a particularily bad idea to keep these in communities. I dont know how much kingsnake behavior there is in a "jungle corn", but I wouldn't even consider keeping a king with room-mates. Relative size isn't even an issue as kings can eat snakes as big as themselves, and can kill snakes bigger than they're able to eat.
The forums here can be very helpfull place. They can also be somewhat closed-minded on certain topics (like community keeping). The reasons for discouraging it are very good, ones, but IMO they are pushed a little too hard at times. Keeping snakes in communities has associated risks. The risks vary by species and by husbandry practices (for example seperating for feedings diminishes some of the risk). For most people (including me at this time) the risks are not worth it. I've seen many successful single and multiple species communities managed by VERY experienced keepers. I've also seen quite a few posts by keepers of various experience levels like yours..."my XXX ate my YYY".
The only way to know for sure is through experience, either your own or somebody else's. Canabalism is not the only problem either. You have to look for signs of stress as well, and that takes experience. I guess what I'm saying is without enough experience, you're not nearly as likely to pull off a successfull community enclosure.
askaboutrep
09-23-04, 02:16 PM
I have kept my baby corns together for 4 years now with no problems ever. No regurgitations, and they all grow up very healthy.
I have kept hatchlings with adults, no problems.
People say they are not social animals, but when they seem lost and lonely when they are by themselves, or, when an adult will make an arch in her body while crawling over a baby, when if it was inanimate object she would be touching it, I have reason to believe otherwise.
Dont assume like with ydnic that I do not know proper care.
askaboutrep
09-23-04, 02:18 PM
Perhaps if the environment was stressful, they might have had reason to eat eachother.
Yeah.. its really hard to say - it could have been the stress of the new additions - but most likely the stupidity of the keeper
Anyways - should I feed him today or not?
The hatchlings have 'left' his body so to speak - should I continue regular feeding?
Most Thamnophis are pretty good when kept communally. Watch out for cannibalistic ones though, such as the wandering garters (T. elegans vagrans). Even some eastern garters (T. s. sirtalis) can be pretty voracious enough to prey on their own. In any situation, be prepared of accidents, cos they DO happen. :) Happy herpin!
Originally posted by askaboutrep
People say they are not social animals, but when they seem lost and lonely when they are by themselves, or, when an adult will make an arch in her body while crawling over a baby, when if it was inanimate object she would be touching it, I have reason to believe otherwise.
How can you describe them as seeming lost and lonely when they are in fact missing the part of the brain that is responsible for those 'emotions'. Snakes can feel primitve, instinctual feelings, otherwise they would have no response - they can feel threatened, stressed, etc., but they cannot possess emotion. That being said, since they are hardwired as solitary animals, we must be careful not to anthromorphize when observing them. Your snake isn't stupid, she knows that she is crawling over another snake, and she isn't comfortable doing so, it isn't that she is being careful to protect the other snake. When snakes huddle together, it isn't because they like it, it is for reasons such as temperature. Snakes have a totally different system than we do, so we must not compare out actions + responses to theirs, as their actions will mean different than our repsonse.
herpslave
09-23-04, 06:18 PM
Sorry my retic just ate my rat. I have to go spank it now...
You would be the one punished.
askaboutrep
09-24-04, 12:45 AM
Why then, when I kept a snake solitary for a few months, she stayed in the same cage with the same surroundings....she would not eat, and was constantly trying to get out. Once I put the other two back in with her, she actually ate, and ate a lot. She stayed under the hidebox with the other two all the time. Tell me again that they are not social creatures.
It was also believed at one point that other animals had no emotions either. When they make noise it was solely the sound of air escaping.
Is this one more step in the evolution of mankind realizing they are not the only worthwhile creatures on this planet.
As for one snake crawling over the other, why would she arch over....what could possibly make it "uncomfortable" compared to other objects.
You made the thread and stated your story. You got a answer. What more do you want?
If you didnt like the responses then why did you post the story.
yeah hooter - i guess your rite - I should have looked into the future and made my decsion then
I`ll do that next time
thanx
nguyen_inc
10-07-04, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Brent Strande
excuse me while I go and spank my snake... ;)
lol I was thinking the same thing! hhahaa brb ima go spank my snake.....hehe. But anyways, im sorry to hear that. a leason learned hah? im still giggling thinking about someone spanking a corn snake and what it sounds like...
Queensnake29
10-13-04, 05:52 AM
If your snake does certain behaviors like striking or latching onto your finger without letting go....or you see it strike another snake when you introduce them....spraying them with water works pretty good.....however if you got a snake that just won't let go of your finger and plans on swallowing all it can and water doesn't work...I've heard alcohol (yes like beer or vodka) put in it's mouth a little (don't make your snake get drunk!) it will make it have a foul taste in it's mouth that will make it let go.
Cedille
10-19-04, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by askaboutrep
It was also believed at one point that other animals had no emotions either. When they make noise it was solely the sound of air escaping.
I think there's a significant difference between, to use pretty extreme examples, a dolphin's brain and a snake's brain.
While reptiles have different temperaments, i don't really think they have emotion or true personality. For example: if they like being handled it's simply because they're not as easily stressed by physical contact, or like the warmth of your hands.
Differences in snakes that we view as "personality" are simply the natural differences in their instinctual reactions. Certainly these are things that would impact their ability to survive in the wild, and effect the quality of the snake's life/breeding success.
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