View Full Version : venomous snakes
Hmmm probibally going to stirr up a hornets nest here but im gona speak my mind. After all this is a forum this is where its done. Im sure some will agree some will disagree with some of my "opinions" but im not posting to put down anyone. Now aside from the people that keep and handle venomous snakes professionally for an actual purpose im very suprsed at the actual number of people that keep these exotic killers and more suprised at the number of people that say that they want to. I really dont see the point of keeping highly venomous snakes "as a hobby". Now I agree that they are very beautiful and amazing creatures and I admire and have the most respect for snakes in question but Damn keeping these things as pets is insaine. Im sure the people that do this would even agree that you have to be a little bit crazy to do it. Im actually very interested in some of the reasons that some of you have for keeping potentially deadly snakes. That is a serious question im trying not to pre judge so im asking. Now im refering to snakes like cobras, mambas, gaboons, tiapans, and the sort. You know the kind, If you get bit your going to die. Most people live through rattlesnake and copperhead bites so im not really refering to species of that nature. Also I dont understand why everyone gets so worked up about venomoids (snakes with fangs surgically removed). As long as the procedure is done by a profesional vetrinarian I would not consider it any different than neutering a dog which is generally considered a humaine practice. If people are going to keep these snakes for personal reasons wouldnt you prefer that thay were not lethal for the keepers and their familys sake. Now dont tell me that your taking away a snakes weapon and they need them because im refering to captive bred snakes and fangs serve no purpose in captivity. They will live a relavively stress free life out of danger and being taken care of and fed pre killed rodents most of the time. Actually wouldnt the snake receive better care if it was made non leathal due to ease of maintenance? Anyone that dosent see my point there is probibally one of those that keeps venomous to prove how big your balls are and id rather see people keep them that actually respected the creature.
Again these are my opinions and im not trying to put anyone down although im sure some of you feel that i have. If im wrong please give me some intelligent reasons why. Im an open minded person, Hell i love snakes i must be right.
Ok, first off, removing a snake's fangs and neutering a dog are as different as night and day. Venom is actually a specialized saliva that has a purpose - it subdues prey, causes death, and starts the disgestive process for the snake. It is extremely inhumane to remove their fangs; and if you fear the snake so much that you feel it's neccessary for you to keep the snake than you shouldn't bother with it in the first place.
Your post leads me to believe that you are uneducated with regards to hot snakes. While you may be looking for answers here it's not going to do any good if you can't keep an open mind, so if you can than read on...
Snakes, hot or not, are interesting, beautiful, and sometimes wonderful pets. The extent of my 'hot' keeping is limited to hognosed snakes, so I can't tell you why people keep seriously deadly hots. Like any pet, they have the ability to turn against their keepers, and it's always the keeper's responsibility to guard against injury.
I keep an enormous burmese python (ok, well he's not THAT big, but it can still be dangerous). Why do I keep it? It's my pet, I truely love this animal, even though it can't love me. It's never tried to hurt, bit or constrict me. My snake is a part of my family (and no I don't 'keep' any kids).
I do understand what you expressing, but I think if you own any pets of your own you'll understand. For some, hots are not pets, and are considered a hobby instead, like collecting shot glasses, I guess. Either belief is fine with me. Any animal I own is a pet and a member of my family, no matter what species.
There are a few people out there that own hots just to prove they have 'big balls' as you put it, and I'm sure this isn't the audience you are hoping to reach here. The real reason why people keep 'hot' snakes? Don't be shocked but it's because we LIKE them!!
I agree with KsKing,
To bad KsKing that no one eles will agree with you because most of these forums members are very self minded. I'm not trying to start anything but once someone such as Samba disagrees the whole thread will disagree. This is very usual of this forum :P. I truly dont mean that in a bad way so please dont flame me. Just my opinion :)
Samba, Like KsKing said why would they need fangs in captivity? Sure it serves a purpose to kill prey and all that but F/T prey is um... dead!
Oh well, I agree 100% with everything stated and no one can convince me that taking the fangs out of a snake is anymore worse than neutering a dog. If it doesnt hurt the snake or effect how it lives then how does this matter? I would really like to know!
treegirl
09-17-04, 11:01 AM
good response, Samba!
Good post I agree with everything you said reguarding keeping snakes and that is the mentality that anyone should have keeping any animal. If its for another reason the animal will not receive the best care that it diserves. I also agree that if you fear the snake so much that you feel it's neccessary so you can keep the snake than you shouldn't be owning it in the first place. However i am not ignorant of venomous snakes or any venomous creature as that goes. Im no expert but venoms serve different purposes depending on the species. To say that they "need" them to start the digestive process is a stretch. In captivity they are not required to subdue prey and cause death so lets discuss the digestive issue. True some venoms cause the breakdown and necrosis of tissue but alot of kept snakes are fed prekilled (thawed) food. Are these bitten then eaten in every instance. Probibally not. It is very unlikely that the snakes digestive process relies on the venom to function. Other venoms attack the central nervous system and have no digestive properties whatsoever. So i supose it depends on the species and It would be safe to say that alot more research is required before an assumption can be made. I also believe that venomous snakes would make terrible pets as they are alot more agressive than other nonvenomous snakes. Nonvenomous snakes defense comes with hiding, evading, bluffing, and biting as a last resort but with little effect. Venomous snakes have the tools to defend themselves and its in there nature to use them if they feel the need so they are alot quicker to show agression and strike. I supose that depends on the ability and tolerance of the handler to deal with this. Reguarding venimoids i still fail to see how it can be extremely inhumane to remove their fangs That is a matter of opinion as well and it is not entirely different than neutering a dog. Dosent that dog need its nuts to provide the hormones that make it function like a normal animal?
HeatherRose
09-17-04, 11:14 AM
Very few people who keep hots regard them as pets.
For anyone thinking that a venomoid operation is fine as long as it's done by a competent, legit veterinarian, do yourself a favour and check this out: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38920
Heather
When you remove the fangs dosen't it kill them? Because they need the venom to digest and what not and without the fangs they can't use it? I saw it on a show once where this chick in africa was trying to crack down on snake charmers and get them arrested because all there snakes died a few weeks later after the fangs were removed?
Just curious
Kayla
treegirl
09-17-04, 11:26 AM
I totally disagree with your statement that 'when Samba disagrees the whole thread will disagree'? Hello? Do you actually 'read' these forums? Samba has been at the very heart of many heated debates and not everyone agrees with her or anyone else for that matter.
I tend to agree with her because she seems to have a lot of knowledge concerning animals and a heart to go with it.
Actually, doesn't the venom also provide fluid that starts to break down the animal with digestive juices?
Hooter - I really resent you saying that "once someone such as Samba disagrees the whole thread will disagree" What a cheap shot! Really, do you think I have that kind of influence?!?! That's rediculous! Maybe the thread will agree with me because a majority of the people here are intelligent and know that this is basically the abuse of an animal we are discussing here...
Some captive snakes still need venom because it starts the digestive process by breaking down the prey from the inside out. Removing their fangs, and method of injecting venom will probably cause digestive problems for them.
If you want to remove the fangs of a snake just to keep it 'safe' that's just sad. Go get a dog.
Heather - Thanks for posting the thread. What a sad and cruel world this is. I really hate the idea of someone attempting to remove the venom/fangs from a snake who probably hasn't even been given any sort of pain management. Poor things must have been terrified.
Ha! Thanks, Dawnell! LOL
Kayla, most snake-charmers' animals probably die from massive infections. It's a sad, slow and painful death and it's completely undeserved by these beautiful animals.
Tree girl,
yes i heard something similar to that either way I'm pretty sure that the snake dies after the procedure, also how would the snake eat if it didn't have it's fangs to grip the prey? I've never seen a venomous snake eat but as far as I know they use the fangs to grip on and swollow.
Kayla
Some species do use the fangs to grasp and pull the prey into their mouths. Venom, mixed with other saliva, also helps coat the prey with a mucus to aide in swallowing, (I believe).
It's really besides the point, though. Think of the kind of owner this snake will have if they actually think removing the fangs is no big deal. They shouldn't be purchasing hot animals if they don't want to accept the risk of being envenomated.
It's just plain self-ishness to remove these vital parts from a snake. As for the comparision to neutering a dog, let me offer you these ideas;
1.) Neutering a dog is simply severing the Vas Defrens, and I believe currently most vets do not remove the testes, which provide the hormones you mentioned earlier.
2.) Neutering a dog is a simple operation with little risk of infection.
There are a lot of hot keepers on this site who keep their animals fully intact, and many have never been struck or envenomated due to their excellent regard for the animal. They practice safe handling techniques and common sense.
If you don't want a venomous snake, don't buy one!
Heatherrose id also like to thank you for posting the thread. It is sad and that just suports the fact tha someone not experienced with gland romoval should not be performing the procedure. It sounded like a vet doing an practice exploratory surgery on a dead snake like any doctor would do before working on a live patient. Aparently everyone else stoped reading the thread when they saw what only supported there opinion. If you were to keep reading the thread, a link was posted at the end. http://www.smuggled.com/VenArt1.htm I found it very informative but I dont think many here will like it. Read the whole thing. But dont get me wrong here I dont justify the procedure just so someone can say that they have a cobra. I think there better off in profesional hands for science purposes or in the wild. But thanks to heatherrose we now have more evidence that it is not an inhumaine act. :D Btw this was not supose to be a venomoid flaming thread I was wanting to know keepers reasoning for collecting very deadly species for personal pets or hobbies.
Back to neutering a dog. The neutering procedure is not for the sole purpos of rendering the dog infertal. It is a selfish act of removing the testicles to make the dog more keepable so it will be less agressive and not have the animal tendancy to roam. Severing the vas defrens is called a vasectomy. Ive had one and its not a big deal other than a few days with ice on the jewls. Neutering a dog has a far greater impact and larger change to the animal than venom glan removal would do to a snake. Neutering a human is refered to as castration. A word that brings chills to every male. It has the same impacts that a hysterectomy has to a female. They cant live a normal life without daily hormones. Hot flashes, no sex drive, and being very quiet ans submissive. I dated a girl that had a hysteroctomy and i knew very quickly if she forgot her pill. I even knew her before sugery so i know how it changed her. It took hormones to make her normal. Still the neutering is totally accepted by most people. I think everyone is just taking the reptile side and not considering these animals equally.
Well, it's hard to consider them equally when they're not even the same thing! I don't know how you can compare the two!
The number one reason for having a dog neutered is NOT to make it calmer, or stop the animal from roaming (it should be enclosed properly anyways). The number one reason is to prevent impregnantion and puppies, because we humans have caused an overpopulation issue. Few people think of the other, smaller effects on the personality of the dog. Secondarily, I don't think these changes occur unless the testes are removed completely.
There is not one good reason why a snake should have it's fangs and/or venom glands removed. Not ONE.
treegirl
09-17-04, 12:40 PM
How many millions of unwanted dogs are euthanized every year due to irresponsible owners NOT nuetering/spaying their animals?
Heh, Just wanted to get this thread going and like always I get things flamed up :) I wont respond as it will only make things worse but what I said before is true and not just for Samba but anyone with many post as I said before.
capsicum
09-17-04, 01:12 PM
Why not look at it this way, and as it has been said already: if you don't want to get bitten, then don't get the snake!
What does it matter to you anyways who has venemous or not? I know many people with venemous, and yes I don't go into their homes, but it's my choice. I just don't get why it bothers you so much?
As for removing fangs, I don't see that it is appropriate. And comparing it to neutering a dog (which you seem to have quite the fascination for), they are completely different.
TK
emilsmee
09-17-04, 01:13 PM
hmm, i posted something like this in the venomous forum and it got deleted... my whole point was that sure you have a choice to own it, but does you family and your neighbourhood have to be put in that kind of danger for you to be cool and have a venomous snake? they're a LOT more dangerous than any scorpion because of their size and defensive nature. it's unfair to everyone around you because there is no such thing as an escape-proof enclosure, especially with snakes! you can get non-hots in any size and colour, why is there a need to keep something that can kill/severely harm you or your family or neighbours??? that just seems very selfish to me.
i was offered a het albino copperhead pair, i didn't take them because i live in an apartment building that has families and older people. it's just plain stupid to think that you'll never get tagged or it'll never get out. just ask anyone with a GTP, an ATB, or an ETB how many times they've been tagged.
maybe i just don't understand...
Artemis
09-17-04, 01:14 PM
Well in your first post you say that most people dont live through rattlesnake and copperhead bites. This is a fantastic example of what I like to call "made-up" statistics, because the fact is most people do live through them. I myself have been envenomated severely by a copperhead in the wild, and yet, here I am. So dont go getting too huffy until you get your facts straight.
All I can say is, you may not understand it, but to each his own. People who don't understand the risks and don't take the proper precautions will probably wind up envenomated, yes, but that is their risk to take. Just because you don't agree with something doesn't make it wrong, or crazy, or anything like that. I could say I dont see "the point" of getting a tattoo and possibly contracting hepatitis, but people do it anyways. That is just for the sake of argument, as I have a couple myself.
I don't even keep venemous snakes, and I don't care too. Your concerns are legitimate ones, and the risk isnt worth it to me, nor is it to many. But to those who feel its worth the risk, its their neck they are risking, so why not. Yay freedom!
Emilsmee- The risk factors arent all that crazy. Snakebites are rare. Seriously. I could argue my neighbors pitbull could kill my kids and its crazy for her to keep it. The world is full of risk, and danger, both natural and man-manifested, so I dont tell my neighbors whats fair for them to do, and they don't tell me what its fair for me to do, and its all good.
Artemis
Ok its very obvious that there not the same thing smart ***. I was refering to comparing the two equally as animals on the planet. It is aparent that you guys have no problem removing a dogs nuts or ovaries. The only thing required to make them infertal is to sever the tubes and that is not done. There organs are removed to alter the animals personality. Spayed female is more agressive and better watch dog. Neutered male is less agressive and sexually driven so its a better pet. This is a huge rape of the animal compared to removing the venom glans of a snake which would not affect it in the slightest. I agree there is very few reasons to do that to a snake but your setting a double standard saying its ok to alter one animal for the keepers convience but not another. I find it alot less selfish to remove a snakes glands because it may kill you, compared to removing a dogs nuts so that it wont piss on tires and want to run like a dog wants to do.
Well in your first post you say that most people dont live through rattlesnake and copperhead bites. This is a fantastic example of what I like to call "made-up" statistics, because the fact is most people do live through them. I myself have been envenomated severely by a copperhead in the wild, and yet, here I am. So dont go getting too huffy until you get your facts straight.
Go back and reread my post and double check to see that it has NOT been edited.
So dont go getting too huffy until you get YOUR facts straight!
critical bill
09-17-04, 01:26 PM
Why the fangs are removed is beyond me.
I had several hot snakes that were de-venomized by surgically removing the gland/sac and partial duct work to the fang. The area is then filled with a silicon substance (?) to give a normal appearence.
I wont even tell you how much this cost but it is quite neccessary if your doing educational shows.
Originally posted by Nicky
When you remove the fangs dosen't it kill them? Because they need the venom to digest and what not and without the fangs they can't use it? I saw it on a show once where this chick in africa was trying to crack down on snake charmers and get them arrested because all there snakes died a few weeks later after the fangs were removed?
Just curious
Kayla
BWSmith
09-17-04, 01:29 PM
Anyone that dosent see my point there is probibally one of those that keeps venomous to prove how big your balls are and id rather see people keep them that actually respected the creature.
So you basically said that you are right and all of the hot keepers who do not agree with you keep hots to feel tough. That is a very arrogant and uninformed statement. You obviously know nothing of venomoids or the physiology of venomous species since you keep referring to "removing fangs".
You know the kind, If you get bit your going to die.
Again showing your ignorance about venomous species. The term "ignorance" is not meant to be offensive, you just seem to think that you have knowledge but either don't or have false information.
Actually wouldnt the snake receive better care if it was made non leathal due to ease of maintenance?
I fail to see how that is relevant. My venomous receive equal or superior husbandry to the nonvenomous. They require it.
Im sure the people that do this would even agree that you have to be a little bit crazy to do it.
You assume incorrectly. Venomous herpetoculture is not a hobby, it is a way of life. And i have met more "crazy" nonven keepers than hot keepers.
I really dont see the point of keeping highly venomous snakes
And you never will. No amount of explaining can make you understand.
Herpers in general are highly persecuted and misunderstood. I am sure that there are people that think you are crazy for keeping reptiles. If there is that much misunderstanding for nonven keepers, imagine what it is like for hot keepers. We are a serious minority within a minority.
Just a little food for thought:
- Here in the United States, who do you think sets up all those nice educational displays with venomous at Nature Centers and Museums? Private Keepers.
- Where did a great deal of the captive husbandry information that zoos use everyday come from? Private Keepers.
- Who does most of the venomous snake removals? private Keepers.
Working with venomous is a different world than nonvens. No better, no worse, just different. I would suggest that you spend some time around seasoned hot keepers. I think that your eyes would open.
I would suggest asking specific questions to get specific answers.
psilocybe
09-17-04, 01:31 PM
Um...okay, not sure how to go about responding to this post, but here goes...
I work with venomous snakes (though i currently don't keep any front-fanged because of my living situation, but plan to soon) and find them extremely rewarding to work with. I don't consider any venomous snake to be a pet, and use the word rather lightly when dealing with any reptile. A cat, a dog, they are pets. A reptile is a captive wild animal.
In any case, the choice to keep venomous is a very serious one. If done properly, it can be no more dangerous than keeping a large constrictor (burmese, anaconda, retic), and funny, I didn't hear anyone complaining about those. Of course, if you don't possess the proper tools and the skills to use them, you can find yourself in a very bad position when keeping venomous snakes. That being said, it is not hard to learn how to work with venomous, as long as you have a good amount of common sense and put in the time to learn the skills.
And being bitten by a taipan, mamba, cobra, or any other potentially deadly snake is not a death sentence...while it is a MEDICAL EMERGENCY of the highest degree, if you have the proper saftey protocols in place (such as Antivenin, immediate treatment procedures, contacts, etc.) you stand a good chance of surviving. Venom normally kills in hours and days ( there are exceptions), and though medical treatment should be sought immediately, if you get bitten by any species, you still have a good chance of surviving (pending you have the proper protocols in place).
In any case, if you don't understand something, you shouldn't slam it. Many many people keep venomous snakes responsibly and safely in this country. There are also those that don't. Don't let the few bad apples spoil the whole damn bunch.
And about the venomoid thing, first off, it's not as simple as "removing their fangs". Fangs are naturally shed by snakes, therefore removing them is a temporary and cruel solution. The procedure involve either snipping the ducts leading from the venom gland to the fangs, removing the entire venom gland itself, or both. And it is not comparable to neutering/spaying. Neutering/spaying has many positive benefits to dogs and cats health, as well as preventing the births of tons of unwanted homeless animals.
The venomoid procedure has ZERO benefit to the snake, and only serves the greedy, selfish human who wants a venomous snake without taking the time or effort to learn how to properly care for the animal. Whether done by a vet or not, the venomoid procedure is cruel and unnecessary.
Anyway, I've ranted enough.
BWSmith
09-17-04, 01:31 PM
I wont even tell you how much this cost but it is quite neccessary if your doing educational shows.
I perform Venomous Educational programs constantly. I see no need to use venomoids. I am curious as to your logic as i have heard that excuse used before and have yet to hear a satisfactory answer.
I thought you were open-minded to this discussion? There's no point to try and understand another's ideas if you can't understand them.
When did I say it is ok to remove a dogs testes'? This is not even the common way of neutering anymore, so I don't even know why you continue to bring it up? Dogs are neutered 98% of the time for fertility purposes. Most people don't even know of the other reasons to neuter. You must be a real expert on this issue, huh, KsKing?!?!
I have no say on the venomous issue, because honestly, I don't know much about it, and haven't developed a full opinion of it.
But as for neutering a dog, the first purpose is to stop the dog from producing offspring, almost always. However, there are times when they do it for personality. Not only with dogs, but with cats. You usually neuter an animal when it's pretty young, so if you have an aggressive puppy, or kitten, they will sometimes remove the testicles. If there isn't any aggression or anything, I'm pretty sure they usually just do what Samba said by "simply severing the Vas Defrens" I don't think they remove the testicles in non aggressive cases. As for neutering adult dogs, they probably do it a bit different than puppies... no clue how though.
BWSmith
09-17-04, 01:37 PM
BTW, Department of Natural Resources brings venomous snakes to ME to house. Evidently I have thier vote of confidence. Oh, but I forgot, according to your logic i only keep them for ego or showing off. I guess DNR must support that. ;)
emilsmee
09-17-04, 01:47 PM
i'd compare removing fangs to something more like removing canines on a pet monkey or a larger type cat. even declawing a housecat is a better example. it's unnecessary and if you feel it is necessary then you shouldn't own these animals. the typical reason is 'i don't want my furniture ruined'. that makes me so angry to hear that your furniture is more important to you than not mutilating your pet. they don't just remove the claw, they remove the whole first joint. and cats walk on their tip toes!! i've seen cats wake up and try to walk then just go into shock from the pain (VERY rare, but it does happen). it also gives them longterm back problems, they were built a certain way for a reason, when you remove their claws, it makes them unbalanced.
stupid people and their declawing cats...
yeah, and a venomous snake and a pitbull are totally different btw. pitbull has the ability sure, but if they're raised like any other dog their predictable and lovable, not animals built to kill. venomous snakes on the other hand don't really get tame when raised around a family. if they got out they'd be scared and in unknown territory, they'd be pretty defensive i'm sure. people also don't take to kindly to free-roaming snakes, especially venomous ones, so i'm sure they'd be more likely to try to harm the snake, making it more defensive. also when a snake gets out they usually try to hide, right? when disturbed they don't take too kindly to being found and exposed, so there again is another example of why a snake would be defensive. all of these reasons are things that your average pitbull wouldn't gt defensive over. plus snakes have no sense that they're domesticated, dogs do.
i could be wrong, and if i am i apologize. but thats how i see it.
treegirl
09-17-04, 01:48 PM
"There organs are removed to alter the animals personality. Spayed female is more agressive and better watch dog. Neutered male is less agressive and sexually driven so its a better pet"
WHAT?!
Pardon me--but these proceedures are done to reduce the amount of unwanted, neglected animals.
I've been around dogs all my life that have been both fertile ( for purebred breeding) and fixed. There really isn't ANY difference between to two. In fact, I've seen fixed males continue to hump other dogs, mark EVERYthing in sight and it depends on the personality of the females as to whether she's aggresive or makes a good watch dog.
Where are you getting your information?
Venomoid operation is not really comparable to dog spaying/neutering.
For one thing the survival rate for spaying/neutering is pretty close to 100%. Maybe someone else can quote the numbers, but the survival rate for venmoids is considerably lower.
Second, one dog being sterilized means we potentially wont have to euthanize dozens of other dogs. Dogs are sterilized because it is the greater good for the animals (or the lesser evil). Reptiles are de-venomed because people lacking the skill to handle them safely insist on keeping them anyway. In other words, the keeper is putting his own whims ahead of the humane treatment of the animals.
Third, although there is no general agreement on how important venom is to digestion, there is some evidence to indicate that it is important. I've seen hots eat before, and even the ones that dont kill their food will often puncture it with their fangs while swallowing. Elapids have little choice in the matter since they have fixed fangs. It doesn't follow that if they dont bite to kill that they dont need venom to digest. I'm saying we dont really know what harm we're doing to the snakes, so why should we be doing it on a wide scale?
As to why some people should be allowed to keep hots, the way I see it, all animals carry a certain level of risk. I've read that approximately 30% of reptiles carry salmonella. There are some who would like to ban reptiles for this reason, but with proper hygiene procedures, the risks can be managed. A full grown coastal carpet python is large enough to constrict and kill a small child, but with the proper handling, housing, and supervision (ie keep them away form small kids), the risks again can be managed. Similarily, although a gaboon viper can bite and kill you, with proper caging, handling experience and safety protocols and procedures, the risks can be managed. Yes, it gets harder, and the committment needed to pull it off is higher, but it can be done safely by the right person.
The people who do it, but say you have to be a bit crazy to do it are stroking their own egos. In my opinion, you have to be very much sane to safely take on these sorts of risks regularily and do what is necessary with focus and professionalism. I have no respect for "daredevil" handlers, but the highest respect for those who take their hot handling safety seriously. The Evil Kenevils of the hot world will hit the landing ramp the wrong way some day, and pay a price for it.
My question is, given that everything has a risk, where should the line be drawn, and by whom?
By the way, I'm against bans, but I'm for requiring licenses for keeping hots. Licenses should require demonstrated knowledge and experience as well as safe housing, and routine inspections.
rg
PS: I make it a habit to disagree with Samba as often as possible. ;)
BWSmith
09-17-04, 02:00 PM
By the way, I'm against bans, but I'm for requiring licenses for keeping hots. Licenses should require demonstrated knowledge and experience as well as safe housing, and routine inspections.
I agree with this.
Ok i thought i made it aparently obvious that i was not refering to people that kept them for profesional purposes which is some of the people that took offense to the thread. I figured you guys could possibly be the ones to take it wrong because of your close nature to the topic but i was not aiming my thread in that direction.
When did I say it is ok to remove a dogs testes'? This is not even the common way of neutering anymore, so I don't even know why you continue to bring it up? Dogs are neutered 98% of the time for fertility purposes. Most people don't even know of the other reasons to neuter. You must be a real expert on this issue, huh, KsKing?!?!
samba there is no reason to neuter a dog for fertility purposes. neutering is removal of the testies! Thats the only way to do it and it is a very common practice and its scary that people dont understand what it is that there doing when they have it done to the animal. It seems that your about as ignorant to the practice as i was about venomoids before this thread began. Your smart *** remarks are not required in this conversation. Aside from flaming back and forth with you this thread has been pretty informative for me.
Reguarding keeping hots. The statment made that I may be viewed by some as nuts just for keeping any snake comparing my view on keeping hots makes perfect sense to me. I supose it is just how far your willing to go for what you love.
treegirl
09-17-04, 02:05 PM
WELL said rwg
BWSmith
09-17-04, 02:05 PM
Some of the best venomous handlers do not do it professionally. But their knowledge has changed venomous herpetoculture.
BWSmith
09-17-04, 02:10 PM
Also, even many of the "professional" venomous keepers started by keeping privately.
I would like to hear an argument why we should NOT be able to keep venomous.
emilsmee
09-17-04, 02:10 PM
i just made my fiance get rid of his two andronctonis australis (tunisian fat-tail scorpions) because they are tied with the deathstalkers as the deadliest scorpions in the world. i was fine with it at first, but he slipped when going in the tank one time and we had an all night scare of whether he was stung or not (there is no antivenom for these). i realized then atht he had no protocol if he got stung and when i saw he was not using tongs ever when doing cage maintenance i got pretty angry. even the experts use tongs when going into even an emperor scorpions enclosure. i asked him why he wasn't using the tongs and he said he didn't need them and he wasn't afraid of the scorpion. sorry, but i wasn't about to lose my fiance over him carelessly not using tongs when doing anything with that scorp. i explained it wasn't about whether he was scared ot tough or whatever. it's about proper handling and being mature enough to not have to prove yourself. it just seemed to me he had it and was trying to prove something so i asked him to get rid of them to someone who does practice proper handling.
i think this should be the same for anyone keeping hots.
emilsmee
09-17-04, 02:16 PM
BWSmith, what is your draw to venomous snakes. what reason do you keep them over any other non-venomous? if they're not 'pets' then why keep them. if you respect them as an animal then why keep them in cages in your house? thats not what they want, thats what you want. if they had the choice, i'm sure they'd leave, so it's not you're doing them any sort of favour by keeping them...
this isn't said with any kind of mean tone, high and mighty-ness, or sarcasm, i'm just curious as to the mentality of those who keep hots.
Second, one dog being sterilized means we potentially wont have to euthanize dozens of other dogs. Dogs are sterilized because it is the greater good for the animals (or the lesser evil). You guys are failing to differentiate between spaying/ neutering with sterilization. Sterilization has no effects on an amimals mentality or natural being. Spaying and neutering does. Its like someone else said. removing the snakes venom glands will leave it non leathal. Removing its fangs is unnecessary and only selfish to reduce the injury if bitten. I am all for the population controll of dogs and cats but fail to see why there testicals and overies need to be removed for the owners convience. Im not comparing the animals with snakes im comparing the practices of these procedures. My point is why does nobody seem to think that an animals reproductive organ removal is a big deal at all but your all up in arms about venom glands. They both are unnecessary and selfish. I dont know maby everyone sees dogs and cats as python food :D
BWSmith
09-17-04, 02:22 PM
Please stop saying "removing fangs". That is not a venomoid. Fangs removed is an injury that WILL heal.
Try rescuing dogs and cats, then tell me that they do not need to be fixed. It is a simple matter of population control.
At least THAT is done by a vet. Venomoid surgury generally is not. Even looking at it from that standpoint, you are comparing a veterinary procedure to a garage hack job done by an unlisenced individual.
didnt even read my post did you? Totally missed the point! Im steralized and i have my nuts! However im not arguing that venomoids are right for every situation the gentleman in an earlier post had a legitimate reason. However any garage hack job to a snake is inhumain.
BWSmith
09-17-04, 02:27 PM
I simply cannot follow your logic. I am sure it sounds logical in your head.
Why does every venomous thread revert to a venomoid debate?
critical bill
09-17-04, 02:27 PM
Perhaps I should have been more clear.
I do shows at "educational facilities" like as in schools. And I have done this for the last 18 years all over the US.
My logic is that, like with any animal, escapes are inevitable. And this is not to say the keeper is at fault or irresponsible. **** happens, I just wouldnt want it happening in an auditorium packed with people.
I have been around long enough to know what can go wrong will go wrong and at times when you least expect it to. Thats murphys law.
Please do not tell me that you have done venomous shows at educational facilities with hot snakes. It would be kinder of you to piss on my pants and tell me its just warm rain.
And if you say you do and constantly, then perhaps you wouldnt mind listing the most recent educational facility that allowed you to bring them in. I would like to verify it with the facility if I may.
Please reply....
Originally posted by BWSmith
I perform Venomous Educational programs constantly. I see no need to use venomoids. I am curious as to your logic as i have heard that excuse used before and have yet to hear a satisfactory answer.
emilsmee
09-17-04, 02:28 PM
hehe when my friend had his dog brought in for 'sterilization' he asked that they leave his testicles. what was his reasoning?
"i know i wouldn't wanna wake up, go to lick myself and find out i've lost my nuts. he loves licking those things... he'd never let me bring him to the vet again if he woke up there without them."
hehe, the vet gave him such a funny look, but said it was no problem. lol.
Why does every venomous thread revert to a venomoid debate? actually i whought it could all be discussed but considered leaving it out becasue ive read other threads like this lol. This wasnt really the direction i wanted this to go in. I was looking for reasons that i might not know for keeping venomous and i have had my eyes opened to some extent in that area.
BWSmith
09-17-04, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by critical bill
Perhaps I should have been more clear. My logic is that, like with any animal, escapes are inevitable.
I disagree. With proper enclosures and procedures, escapes are COMPLETELY avoidable. An escaped venomous snake is nothing more than the result of lax husbandry (even if it is just a one time thing, like forgetting to lock a cage).
As for educational programs, most are venomous some are not. I recently did a display at Fernbank Museum in Atlanta and venomous were not allowed. Hopefully next year they will be since over 3000 people showed up (fully half requested seeing "poisonous" snakes). My most recent venomous shows have been at Lanier Museum and Chatahoochee Nature Center. You can PM me if you like for contact info and visit my site at www.reptileeducation.com for more information. No I do not take Venomous to Schools. I have been asked to many times, but have declined. In fact, due to scheduling, I have all but cut school programs out completely.
Hots are always secured in custom enclosures. I prefer a display style rather than lecture style because then everyone gets to see the animals and ask questions. The "stadium" style programs are about useless as far as I am concerned. i have done a couple and didn't like it. I will also say that i do not think that there is much educational value in displaying exotic venomous in such venues. i would much rather focus on the animals native to the area.
BWSmith
09-17-04, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by emilsmee
BWSmith, what is your draw to venomous snakes. what reason do you keep them over any other non-venomous? if they're not 'pets' then why keep them. if you respect them as an animal then why keep them in cages in your house? thats not what they want, thats what you want. if they had the choice, i'm sure they'd leave, so it's not you're doing them any sort of favour by keeping them...
this isn't said with any kind of mean tone, high and mighty-ness, or sarcasm, i'm just curious as to the mentality of those who keep hots.
Sorry, I looked over this one.
it is difficult to describe the draw to venomous. From the day i saw my first Copperhead, i was hooked.
I actually keep about 70 or so snakes, and only about half are venomous. Although once you get used to working with hots, it feels odd to actually touch a snake. Even my nonvens usually get hooked.
I do not consider them pets so much as my cares. Over half of the venomous I have are rescues. Some rescued from people's homes where they were about to get their heads chopped off, some rescued from the Rattlesnake Roundup, some rescued to irresponsible venomous keepers.
Why do we keep any animals?
Originally posted by rwg
PS: I make it a habit to disagree with Samba as often as possible. ;)
*LOL*
I think I've said my fill on this topic, and think you all have made good points. I still believe that creating venomoids is barbaric and nothing will change my opinion on that.
As for the whole neutering dogs issue, get over it... it's widely practiced because is good for everyone, including the animals.
emilsmee
09-17-04, 02:56 PM
i dunno, we're all human and not perfect and i think you have to count on that fact. we're not machines programmed to remember certain things. there are times that no matter how much you should remember, you just don't, and nothing can change that. if you haven't lost anything yet, it's only a matter of time. and if you never do, you're in a severe minority and congrats, you're the ideal hot keeper. but for the rest of the humans on this forum i'm sure we've all lost something or have been bitten by something and those are mistakes you just shouldn't make with hots.
should people be allowed to keep them? i don't think so, but i'm not the one making the rules. i don't think these animals benefit from being kept in captivity at all. i especially don't agree with them being shown in school and other public venues. thats how the wrong people get interested in them. if you're really interested you'll find them on your own, thats how i've found all my animals, and i'm sure it's the same for everyone else.
i guess you'll just never convince someone who has something that they shouldn't have it, no matter what it is. and thats not necessarily a bad thing. i just feel that a majority of these hot keepers know the danger and still keep them with no consideration whatsoever for anyone other than themselves. they say it's their choice and their consequences, but it affects other people too. if they die of a snake bite and that snakes still on the loose, then what? (i know thats a severe example) or if it gets out when you're not home and your significant other or child finds it before you do by stepping on it. what about a hurricane? what happens if the snakes survive and their enclosures are destroyed? you always have to think of the worst case scenerio when owning a dangerous animal and can't always rely on 'i'm a responsible keeper' because it may not always have something to do with your abilities as a keeper. i ALWAYS go though every case and thats why i don't have the A. australis anymore. i'm just lucky nothing happened before we decided they had to go.
it's nothing personal BWSmith, honestly i'm not attacking you, this is just how i feel about the hobby of keeping venomous snakes in general. this is also how i feel about large snakes, large cats, 3+ scorpions, crocodilians, etc. i just feel there are some animals people should not own at all.
BWSmith
09-17-04, 03:05 PM
emilsmee, you have every right to your opinion. However, when dealing with venomous, you should be "programmed". I have very strict procedures anytime a venomous cage is opened. If you are in a hurry, then let it be until you are not. hast brings mistakes, and there is no room for mistakes with venomous. Safety is alway the top priority. There is no excuse for an escaped venomous. The cage should be locked when the snake goes back in, and all of the cages should be double checked before leaving the hot room. I check my cages at least 3 times a day. If one gets out of a cage that is secured, you should not have had it in that cage to begin with. And my personal feeling is that anyone who keeps hots in aquariums should be flogged ;) My cages are even protected against falls.
emilsmee
09-17-04, 03:12 PM
are they worth all that trouble though? you might as well be keeping murderous inmates with that much of a protocol. where the enjoyment when you have to worry that much is what i don't understand. i enjoy my cats because i can see they love me back with affctionate displays. i like my tarantulas because there's very little care involved. watching them eat is the best part. but if the proceedures (and fear) outweighed what enjoyment i get out of them, i wouldn't keep them anymore.
critical bill
09-17-04, 03:12 PM
"i'd compare removing fangs to something more like removing canines on a pet monkey or a larger type cat."
Monkeys and large cats dont inject a very lethal dose of venom. Not to say they both cant be deadly.
"even declawing a housecat is a better example. it's unnecessary and if you feel it is necessary then you shouldn't own these animals. the typical reason is 'i don't want my furniture ruined'."
Darling, I have Laura Ashley furniture. I have given my cat a very good home but I would be damned if it woud be allowed to use my couch as a scratching post. Phook the cats nails!
"that makes me so angry to hear that your furniture is more important to you than not mutilating your pet."
Angry shmangry....its obvious you have a futon with a torn up pad. My sofa, love seat and chair cost three grand. They were there before the cat.
"they don't just remove the claw, they remove the whole first joint. and cats walk on their tip toes!!"
I am married, I walk on my tippy toes almost all the time.
"i've seen cats wake up and try to walk then just go into shock from the pain (VERY rare, but it does happen)."
Extremely rare. I worked for a vet and they dope them up so much because they are unable to communicate pain in the way a human would.
"it also gives them longterm back problems,"
So my cat chiropractor tells me. I just thought this only applied to women with big boobs.
" they were built a certain way for a reason, when you remove their claws, it makes them unbalanced."
Tell that to the decalwed stray in my front yard feeding off starlings and finches at my bird feeder.
"stupid people and their declawing cats..."
Youre right! I say just chop the paws clean off.
"yeah, and a venomous snake and a pitbull are totally different btw. pitbull has the ability sure, but if they're raised like any other dog their predictable and lovable, not animals built to kill."
Funny but you stand more of a chance getting bitten by that pitbull or scratched by that cat no matter how it is raised then you would ever have being bitten by a venomous snake.
" venomous snakes on the other hand don't really get tame when raised around a family. "
They become conditioned never tamed.
"if they got out they'd be scared and in unknown territory, they'd be pretty defensive i'm sure."
If you dont own a venomous snake how can you be sure?
" people also don't take to kindly to free-roaming snakes, especially venomous ones, so i'm sure they'd be more likely to try to harm the snake, making it more defensive. "
Your related to Jack Hanna arent you...
"also when a snake gets out they usually try to hide, right? when disturbed they don't take too kindly to being found and exposed, so there again is another example of why a snake would be defensive. all of these reasons are things that your average pitbull wouldn't gt defensive over. plus snakes have no sense that they're domesticated, dogs do."
Oh whats the use.....Im going to kick the crap outta my cat. Hell, he cant scratch me anymore since I pulled his claws out with a pair of pliers.
"i could be wrong, and if i am i apologize. but thats how i see it. "
Apology accepted.
Originally posted by emilsmee
if you haven't lost anything yet, it's only a matter of time.
I have owned several snakes and I have never had an escapee. Ever.
i don't think these animals benefit from being kept in captivity at all.
What about rare animals in captive breeding programs? What about the educational value from keeping them? If people didn't keep and understand these animals we probably wouldn't have anti-venom for those who may or may not have been struck by wild snakes.
i especially don't agree with them being shown in school and other public venues. thats how the wrong people get interested in them. if you're really interested you'll find them on your own, thats how i've found all my animals, and i'm sure it's the same for everyone else.
Find them on their own? You mean in their own backyard? People who attend these functions are ALREADY interested in these animals! LOL
Mustangrde1
09-17-04, 03:34 PM
I am not even sure where to start.
I suppose trying to address first why we should be able to keep them is first. Best way to answer that question is with a few questions. If hot keepers should not be permitted to keep hots then should not keepers of Giant Constrictors be forbidden as well? they pose just as great a risk and danger as any hot do they not? I can survive an envenomation but I cannot survive affixation!If hot keeper are denied their rights to keep hots then should not the keepers of large Varanids be disallowed to keep their Varunus species as well they after all can inflict serious and in a rare case potentially fatal wounds! For that matter lets not drive cars they kill more then venomous snakes do that is a fact. Horses also are far more deadly and dangerous to their handlers another fact. Dogs and cats account for fatalities and more injuries then venomous snakes fact. Those are facts and the CDC" has the records to prove it.
Venomous snakes are no more dangerous then any of the above and in many of the cases less dangerous as backed up by International and National data bases. Legitimate bites are actually very rare and from statistic most bites occur when alcohol is involved. Hmm maybe we should ban Alcoholic Beverages, we will have even less bites, probably less automobile deaths also.
If a private person wishes to keep venomous reptiles they should invest the time and energy in to safety and for many hot keepers that is certainly costly. From Permits to caging and tools. This article may enlighten you to some of the cost involved
http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43951 .
As to escape proof caging and rooms. I am inspected by Florida Game and Freshwater Fish Commission from time to time and always pass inspection even after the recent Hurricane Frances. All my hots were double bagged then placed in Rubbermaid which was taped and zip tied shut then placed in a vision cage and a 1 inch piece of plywood secured over the front. My hot room was a mess and cages looked horrible when I was inspected But ALL snakes were secured for safety of everyone and I passed the inspection. How many non-venomous keepers go to that extreme to protect themselves their snakes and the public. I spoke to many of the hot keepers around here and every last single one did bag and secure their hots.
As to Venomoids. First Ripping the fangs out does not render them harmless. What it does do is Cause nasty infections and can kill the snake in time. If it does not they will grow new fangs and again be fully capable of envenomation. There is really no statistical data on the survival rate of most the venomoids created because the people doing it are doing it illegally. Legal surgery performed by vets would have the proper medical records required by laws and then we would have a clear statistical view of it. However from some research and speaking with friends who have been part of the pet trade there is a mortality rate of about 40% but can be has high as 90% The 90% number is sited from a shipment of Rinkals Cobras that went under the procedure 20 were sent to a person he performed the operation and only 2 survived. There are several threads on this case on forums please feel free to look it up.
As to the argument of ductal regeneration and why there are few { venomoid } bites confirmed or reported This may help answer that.
For the record numerous medical research institutes including The United States Department of Agriculture have done numerous studies on Reparative Regeneration using reptiles as part of their experiments and have found that it can and does occur. This includes and is not limited to reptilian and amphibians.
Many of the studies indicate a degree of both organ and tissue regeneration.
Regeneration is defined as the replacement, repair or restoration of lost or damaged structures or reconstitution of the whole body from a small fragment of it during the post-embryonic life.
There are two main types:
Reparative Regeneration: This type is limited to the repair or healing of injuries, and it takes place by localized cell proliferation and migration. This is seen both in vertebrates and invertebrates.
Restorative Regeneration: It is the replacement of lost body parts. It is rare among vertebrates but common in invertebrates.
EXAMPLES OF REGENERATION ABILITY IN DIFFERENT ANIMALS
The degree of this ability differs in the various groups of animals. Following are some examples from invertebrates:
Protozoans: If an Amoeba is cut into parts each containing a piece of the nucleus, the parts grow into complete individuals.
Sponges: Any part of the body can be cut off or injured and it will be readily repaired, e.g., Sycon.
Coelenterates: A Hydra may be cut into many bits, and each part will regenerate into a complete individual of smaller size. The posterior end will regenerate the mouth and tentacles; the anterior part regenerates the foot and adhesive disc.
In vertebrates, the regenerative power is quite restricted. In fish, the tail does not regenerate. In reptiles it does.
Regenerative power is most spectacular in the urodele amphibians. In newts and salamanders, limbs, tails, external gills, upper and lower jaws, parts of the eye (iris, retina) can regenerate.
In mammals, regenerative ability is restricted to tissue regeneration i.e., the restoration of defects and lesions in various tissues but not the restoration of lost organs.
The only exception is the liver in mammals. If a part of it is removed, the remaining portion grows by repeated division to full size, but the normal shape is not restored. Likewise, if one kidney is removed, the other enlarges to take over the function of the missing kidney. This is called compensatory hypertrophy.
There are numerous studies to this end.
Regarding venomoid surgery if the organ IS NOT fully removed it has the potential to regenerate or more accurately Restore itself to a partial use. We do have evidence of many cases of ductal regeneration in which the animal was capable of delivering venom through the duct again.
Just because something has not to some peoples views been credibly scientifically proven does not mean by and means it cannot happen. The evidence especially in the reptile and amphibian families show all to often exactly how much these animals can do to repair damage done to their bodies and or in reproduction.
If the surgery is done completely and correctly the odds remain low of any regeneration. However it is still an IF and I for one am not willing to bet my or my families life on an IF.
There are as of this date 3 confirmed envenomations from supposed venomoids snakes. 1 in Miami Florida. 1 in Liverpool and 1 in Germany. Why is there not more? Simple, Under the medical coding system a snake bite is broken down as follows
Below is the ICD9CM which is the medical coding used by the medical industry.
Bite
animal NEC E906.5
other specified (except arthropod) E906.3
venomous NEC E905.9
arthropod (nonvenomous) NEC E906.4
venomous - see Sting
black widow spider E905.1
cat E906.3
centipede E905.4
cobra E905.0
copperhead snake E905.0
coral snake E905.0
dog E906.0
fer de lance E905.0
gila monster E905.0
human being
accidental E928.3
assault E968.7
insect (nonvenomous) E906.4
venomous - see Sting
krait E905.0
late effect of - see Late effect
lizard E906.2
venomous E905.0
mamba E905.0
marine animal
nonvenomous E906.3
snake E906.2
venomous E905.6
snake E905.0
millipede E906.4
venomous E905.4
moray eel E906.3
rat E906.1
rattlesnake E905.0
rodent, except rat E906.3
serpent - see Bite, snake
shark E906.3
snake (venomous) E905.0
nonvenomous E906.2
sea E905.0
spider E905.1
nonvenomous E906.4
tarantula (venomous) E905.1
venomous NEC E905.9
by specific animal - see category E905
viper E905.0
water moccasin E905.0
You will see there is no CODE FOR VENOMOID so it has to be call venomous. and lets face it if it injects venom it is hot, no matter what the person selling it may have told you.
Unless the bite recieves media attention and it is told to them it was a venomoid which by the way is not a true word then it is considered venomous. With the growing market for these altered cornsnakes it is only a matter of time before we start hearing more and more bite accounts. Of course the proponents for these altered animals will claim bad surgery is the case. Well, to me the simple fact is no surgery and no risk would have prevented it. A venomoid owner would not treat a hot the same as his new pet cornsnake thus he wouldn't have had the hot to begin with.
I keep many venomous and non-venomous animals and have never had an escape from my cages let alone the room. That includes everything from Scarlet Kingsnakes to Scrub Pythons, Uromastyx to Nile Monitors, Rattlesnakes to Mamba's. I keep these animals because I love them one and all for their beauty their majesty and their habits. I would guess those are reasons many people keep animals be they relatively safe to handle pets or not.
Now my question who is it that has the right to tell us or say we cannot keep hots? Who are you to judge what another does so long as they make the effort to do it safely and correctly? What species do you keep and work with? Finally a word of advice, Calling these people crazy that put so much forethought so much time so much research and dedication to their animals and hobby and people around them shows anyone who would say that is misinformed and ignorant from lack of experience. This can be solved by asking logical questions and keeping quiet and learning.
treegirl
09-17-04, 03:36 PM
hmmmm....critical bill sure sounds like ib_inked or ladyluck? wasn't he banned? Is this a new name'critical bill'? ...kurtis--is that you? just guessing, of course.
LOL I thought the same thing... =)
LdyDrgn
09-17-04, 05:10 PM
Nicely put, Scott. :)
Wow lots of good information and experience posted! I apreciate the views from hotkeepers from both sides of the discussion. Alot different than what I really expected to hear. Im actually really pleased to see the level of maturity and profesionlaism displayed by the hotkeepers that have posted here. From some of the things i have read I had expected a bunch of adrenaline junkies handling deadly snakes in their basements for a thrill. Although im sure those people are out there (god forbid) That dosent seem to be the case with the people that have shared there experiece and views in this thread. I do believe my reference of have to be crazy to keep these snakes was taken out of context a little. It was meant in the terms of how one might refer to a race car driver "they gota be crazy" or people that jump out of airplanes. It wasnt meant litteraly. However I will never keep hots and might not fully comprehend why someone would deal with the inherant danger of keeping hots. I do at least think that those that are responsible enough to keep others out of danger should be able to. I especially think using them for educational purposes is great. Even these magnificent species are an imporntant part of the ecosystem and should not be eraticated because of peoples fear or misunderstanding. Unfortunately in the wild accidents happen and people think every snake needs to die because of it. I grew up in the country and have seen many rattlers and copperheads. Fortunately It was a venomous snake exibit that i saw when in the boy scouts that was responsible for my apreciation and respect of these species. My neighbor wasnt so informed and he boasted of his rattle collection on a string. Fortunately hes dead now. I still owe that SOB a piss on the grave :D
I think I've said my fill on this topic, and think you all have made good points. I still believe that creating venomoids is barbaric and nothing will change my opinion on that.
As for the whole neutering dogs issue, get over it... it's widely practiced because is good for everyone, including the animals.
nothing will change my opinion on that.
Those two statements are a contradiction in the argument of humaine practices towards animals.
Samba get a clue!
Originally posted by KsKing
Anyone that dosent see my point there is probibally one of those that keeps venomous to prove how big your balls are and id rather see people keep them that actually respected the creature.
Originally posted by BWSmith
Also, even many of the "professional" venomous keepers started by keeping privately.
Exactly. Nobody starts off working with animals professionally. In addition, most of the people I know that keep hots, keep them very privately to themselves, not showing them off or letting the whole world know they have them, so I don't know where a statement like people keep them for their egos can stem from.
Originally posted by KsKing
I am all for the population controll of dogs and cats but fail to see why there testicals and overies need to be removed for the owners convience.
Actually, population control is only one of the reasons that an animal may have its reproductive parts removed. There are many medical conditions, just like with people, that may require an animal to have a hysterectomy or their testicles removed.
Mustangrde1
09-17-04, 06:13 PM
If you go looking for a fight they normally find you. If you go looking for information with an open mind you may end up forgetting more then you will ever be able to share!
I've been around dogs all my life that have been both fertile ( for purebred breeding) and fixed. There really isn't ANY difference between to two. In fact, I've seen fixed males continue to hump other dogs, mark EVERYthing in sight and it depends on the personality of the females as to whether she's aggresive or makes a good watch dog.
Where are you getting your information?
Its common knowledge! Ive seen a spayed female hump other dogs, its a sign of domination. Men that are extreme sex offenders on occasion or two have had a castration procedure (neutered) in exchange for there fredom. No sex organs no sex drive. I had a girlfriend that had had a hyserectomy(spayed). I knew her before and after and without taking hormones she was totally different. Also uncomfortable due to terrible hot flashes. Hormones can change alot that most wouldnt even realize and just because a dog cant tell you dosnt mean it isnt real.
Actually, population control is only one of the reasons that an animal may have its reproductive parts removed. There are many medical conditions, just like with people, that may require an animal to have a hysterectomy or their testicles removed.
Your refering to a very small percentage that have had this because of medical problems. Still everyone is missing the point. Removal of these organs is not necessary to make them infertal yet every dog or cat that you get at the pound will have it done. Im infertal and I still have my balls, its not right to remove them, the tubes should be cut and clamped just like humans. Removing an animals sex organs, venom glands or fangs are all unnecessary. You cant say one is humaine and the other isnt. In both cases your altering a creature physically to better suit the handlers needs.
Mustangrde1
09-17-04, 06:37 PM
Removing an animals sex organs, venom glands or fangs are all unnecessary. You cant say one is humaine and the other isnt. In both cases your altering a creature physically to better suit the handlers needs.
Actually you can.
Removal of a sexual organ is benifical for population control and also performed by Vets. Also This surgery has been shown to improve the life span of the animals as well. without this surgery we would have far to many ferral animals which do pose a very serious impact on our native species.
Removal of the duvorneys gland is a uneeded surgery that is souly performed for the handler and has absoulutly NO benift to the animal or its health. It is also performed 99% of the time by people in a back room with little to no steyrol conditions.
I cant wait to hear Taniths or the Good Venomdoc's views and insight on this subject
Artemis
09-17-04, 06:43 PM
Whatever. I swear it said otherwise but im too tired to argue. Anyways that doesnt alter my original point, which is that people should have the freedom to keep freaking venomous snakes if they want to.
Artemis I agree.
Mustangrde1 Did you not read that whole post above yours? This isnt an issue about birth control. They should have their tubes cut and clamped. TUBES CUT AND CLAMPED! TUBES CUT AND CLAMPED! JUST LIKE HUMANS! how many times do i have to say this before people understand what im trying to say. Maby removal of your sex organs would improve your life span too? Should it be mandated to have males testicles removed for that purpose. Yes have them all rendered infertal but the way they go about doing IT is what im using for comparison here.
OMG HOW IN THE HELL DID THIS THREAD BECOME A DISCUSSION ABOUT FREAKIN NUTS?????
Please read the whole post before comenting on it. Ive read every post in this thread in its entirety so that i dont miss someones point or significant information for this same reason. I swear half the responses are based on the first few sentences of peoples posts here.
I need to go tie on a good one after this mess! :cool:
BWSmith
09-17-04, 07:13 PM
I have never heard of getting tubes tied on dogs or cats. Is that even in practice? If not, then perhaps there is a medical reason why it is not feasible.
Good post! That is the first intelligent thing i have heard to justify the practice. Something id really like to find out.
BTW smith that avitar is sweet!
ChurleR
09-17-04, 07:30 PM
Removing the venom glands from a snake is extremely bad. There was a study published last year where a large constrictor and large viper were fed a prey item of equal mass. The viper was fully done digesting roughly THREE (3!!!!) weeks faster than the constrictor. Alot of snakes use venom just like we use saliva, an early breakdown stage. I dare you to get your saliva producing glands or saliva ducts chopped out and see how healthy you are after a few years. In vipers and pitvipers the venom probably has more digestive power than any other snakes, and they in turn need that. They've relied on it for a million years or more... they simply can't function without it. Their lifestyle will be severely compromised and they'll be chronically unhealthy. As for the process... not many vets would perform such a procedure, and for good reason. You have to dig through upper maxillary structures that you simply can't avoid. MsTT has an old post somewhere on the venomous board that details the procedure she asked her vet to perform on a DEAD specimen. He had a difficult time with it and noted that several fragile structures were demolished in the process. As for just clipping the duct from gland to fang, it will (as noted before) probably regenerate and the handler with his overconfidence and lack of handling skills will probably pay a hefty price for it.
Beyond that, I love all herps, but mainly snakes... and I probably lean towards venomous as my favorites. I love the ecological niche they inhabit and the complex and varied forms it can take.
Mustangrde1
09-17-04, 08:02 PM
KS you appear not to be reading everything or at very least not grasping the concepts. Maybe this will help you.
I quoted you directly. Then answered you directly. By responding to the text in the quote ONLY and its content.
Removing an animals sex organs, venom glands or fangs are all unnecessary. You cant say one is humaine and the other isnt. In both cases your altering a creature physically to better suit the handlers needs.
My answer was to show that there is reason for one and not for the other I attempted to use factual reasons to explain it.
Guess i need to make it more simple though.
YOU SAID Removing an animals sex organs, venom glands or fangs are all unnecessary.
1 Removal of the duvorneys gland is NOT needed for any reason at all. There is no justification or health issue to have it removed. If a person wants a venomous snake they should take the time to learn to safely work with it. If they can not take that time or are still in fear of a potential bite then there are numerous other snakes that they can own.
2 Sexual organ removal or if you preffer clamping, cutting, nipping, tucking what ever you want to call it is a procedure that is viable and for the better health and or welfare of an animal and to prevent over population.
I did read every post as i normally do. Allow me to show you
I dont understand why everyone gets so worked up about venomoids (snakes with fangs surgically removed). As long as the procedure is done by a profesional vetrinarian I would not consider it any different than neutering a dog which is generally considered a humaine practice.
Back to neutering a dog. The neutering procedure is not for the sole purpos of rendering the dog infertal. It is a selfish act of removing the testicles to make the dog more keepable so it will be less agressive and not have the animal tendancy to roam
I find it alot less selfish to remove a snakes glands because it may kill you, compared to removing a dogs nuts so that it wont piss on tires and want to run like a dog wants to do.
Those are but a few of your quotes. Your obvious lack of knowledge with venomous reptiles and venomoids was very obvious. Also your knowledge on dogs and cats and there agression tendancies after they have been fixed is also lacking. I known of numerous attacks by K9's post surgery. Again that information can be found at the CDC. Yet after your comments which many appeared to take offence to, most tried to keep it polite. Now before you start firing off about people not reading everything you should ask them what they ment. Then again i told you that before.
Vengeance
09-17-04, 08:10 PM
I've read most of this thread, and I'm not even going to bother wasting the time and energy involved in responding, but just figured I'd post this because it fits....
http://www.sopranosforum.com/images/tools/troll_2.jpg
Gee you take part of my post and quote it then comment on that small part. Thats just typical politics at work there. The whole post that those first quotes were take from meant more than the peices that you took. Answer this for me? Why does an animal need to have its organs removed to render it infertal when its unnecessary to go to that extreme. And dont say because its better for the dogs lifespan. Im sure the animal would rather have them parts intact and ive made brought up many comparisons to support the fact. Thats why i questioned people reading the entire post. You have not brought any reason to justify that procedure being performed to an animal. You did however mention some reasons but i could mention some reasons just as valid for the removal for venom glans. However neither is necessary and both are not humaine for the animals in question. Go ahead and question my knowledge! If thats all you have left to do is personal attack you are not
WTF ever can i nuke this thread?
Hell i cant. Will a moderator please terminate this thread before i enter trolldom and get myslef banned for lack of self control. Aparently im not the only person that has an issue of feeling that they must be right all the time. There are alot of Opinions here that are being argued over and it will never end. It is to the point of childish name calling and im done with this.
I politely ask that nobody respond to this thread so that it can take its rightfull place in the recycle bin.
JUST NUKE IT.
Originally posted by KsKing Hormones can change alot that most wouldnt even realize and just because a dog cant tell you dosnt mean it isnt real.
Quite true, which is why hormonal profiles can be done by veteriarians. If you DON'T spay a non breeding female ferret, her quality of life and her risk of developing some very uncomfortable and/or life threatening conditions goes through the roof. The same can happen to female dogs. Since it is inhumane to put the animal at this kind of health risk, and also inhumane to keep breeding offspring that cannot be cared for adequately, spaying is the solution that causes the least amount of animal suffering.
Neutering has some health benefits for a male, mostly behavioral. Basically it lessens the male's chances of being injured while engaging in roaming or fighting behavior. And it prevents the birth of more animals that will not have a good quality of life. All veterinarians will perform neutering and spaying, some even on a volunteer basis because it does help prevent animal suffering. No veterinarian will have ethical problems with performing this operation. It is generally a good service to an animal that is likely to improve its quality of life.
Removal of these organs is not necessary to make them infertal yet every dog or cat that you get at the pound will have it done. Im infertal and I still have my balls, its not right to remove them, the tubes should be cut and clamped just like humans. Removing an animals sex organs, venom glands or fangs are all unnecessary. You cant say one is humaine and the other isnt. In both cases your altering a creature physically to better suit the handlers needs.
Um, what veterinary literature have you been reading? Tubal ligation/vasectomy is a procedure elected by humans largely for cosmetic reasons. There are some considerations in humans in regards to retaining functional levels of hormones, but spayed and neutered dogs and cats may benefit more from not having those hormones. I would consult directly with your veterinarian and see what he or she has to say as to whether there is any health benefit for an animal to be neutered by ligation rather than orchidectomy or hysterectomy.
One of the reasons that the cosmetic option isn't generally used in animals is that it should be visually determined whether or not an animal needs to be neutered if it is rounded up as a stray. Sadly, a lot of people are that irresponsible with their pets, making it a good general policy for desexing operations to be clearly evident.
Removing a snake's fangs is a complete waste of time. They grow back. If you did enough damage to the upper maxilla that they couldn't grow back, that would be a horrendously mutilated snake.
Removing a snake's venom glands is a horrendously invasive procedure. In order to get better educated on the subject, I asked my veterinarian to perform this procedure on some dead snakes. He was fairly appalled that any veterinarian would be willing to do this thing to a live animal. He certainly would not do so. He won't do declaws either. The term "declawing" is a bit of a misnomer; it is partial digit amputation, akin to cutting off all the cat's finger joints at the first knuckle.
There are vets out there who have basically no ethics except "whatever pays the bills", so until the US catches up to the UK and outlaws cosmetic surgery on animals, a few will still be doing these operations. But not too many, which is why the majority of venomoids on the market are crude amateur hack jobs done under illegal, inhumane and non sterile conditions with no pain medication and craft store tools.
ChurleR
09-17-04, 09:06 PM
I realize I spouted alot about venomoids without answering your original question. I personally believe the way humans are going with habitat destruction, rattlesnake roundups, and a general disregard for nature there will only be a few individuals left of certain species, and they will be in the care of someone's private collection. The species that are still extant at that point will be the few that can survive almost anywhere. That's just a personal opinion, basically it boils down to "If we don't, who will?".
Originally posted by KsKing Now aside from the people that keep and handle venomous snakes professionally for an actual purpose im very suprsed at the actual number of people that keep these exotic killers and more suprised at the number of people that say that they want to.
It really boils down to whether someone is a generally sane, sober and responsible adult who has a professional level of skill and good safety protocols. There are responsible, skilled adults who are well enough educated to safely do some fairly dangerous things in a safe manner. Eg, racecar drivers, professional stunt people, horse trainers, parachute jumpers, etc.
There are also some drunken redneck yahoos whose last words are likely to be something like "Y'all watch this". They are as likely to get themselves into trouble behind the wheel of a car as by playing with a rattlesnake, and they will be doing both in a careless manner for the wrong reasons.
People who take their own lives (or other people's lives) into their hands by doing dangerous things need to be sane, sober, mature, safety aware and reliably skilled. If they are not, they have no business doing anything dangerous including driving a car on the highway. Those kinds of people should not be keeping venomous snakes, and I wish they didn't have driver's licenses either.
Now im refering to snakes like cobras, mambas, gaboons, tiapans, and the sort. You know the kind, If you get bit your going to die.
That is simply not true. Like many responsible keepers, I stock antivenom and have written surgical protocols at the ready to make sure that the doctors know what to do to help me survive a bite. I take all safety precautions to avoid being bitten, but I am ready to survive a bite if it does happen.
Also I dont understand why everyone gets so worked up about venomoids (snakes with fangs surgically removed). As long as the procedure is done by a profesional vetrinarian I would not consider it any different than neutering a dog which is generally considered a humaine practice.
The fangs are not surgically removed, the venom glands are. These are fairly large structures located deep inside the snake's head which attach to the base of the upper maxilla. Removing them is an extremely invasive and painful procedure, even when done by a competent veterinarian with post operative pain medication. Had root canals much? A snake's mouth is extremely well innervated, just like a mammal's. Cutting in that area hurts them rather a lot.
And unfortunately surgery in a real vet clinic is not the usual scenario for commercially produced venomoids, which are mostly done illegally by unlicensed amateurs with no pain medication. Some (eg, Ray Hoser) say that they use no anesthesia whatsoever. The snake is made too cold to struggle and strapped down to a non sterile wooden board with nails and rubber bands. This is not a humane practice, and it does not have any health benefits or animal welfare benefits.
If people are going to keep these snakes for personal reasons wouldnt you prefer that thay were not lethal for the keepers and their familys sake. Now dont tell me that your taking away a snakes weapon and they need them because im refering to captive bred snakes and fangs serve no purpose in captivity. They will live a relavively stress free life out of danger and being taken care of and fed pre killed rodents most of the time. Actually wouldnt the snake receive better care if it was made non leathal due to ease of maintenance?
I can see that you're not too familiar with venomous snakes. That's okay, most people aren't - all they see is the nonsense on television, where the showpeople have a vested interest in making you believe that it's a lot more exciting and dangerous than it really is. It is not at all difficult to handle venomous snakes for routine maintenance using good safety tools. It's usually a pretty dull sort of job. If you generate any excitement while handling, you're probably doing it wrong.
My snakes recieve excellent hands on care, including veterinary care. It is honestly no big deal for me to catch one of my little buddies and check inside a mouth or pull an eyecap or give medication, and just a quick moment's work to move them to a safety bin for cage cleaning. I use safe and gentle handling techniques for veterinary restraint for minimal stress on the patient.
I think that like most people, you are imagining that it must be hard and scary to handle a venomous snake. But to an experienced handler, it's really not. It's just a routine chore that I don't honestly even think twice about going in and doing. My nonvenomous snakes don't get a better standard of care or more frequent handling than my venomous snakes. They're all just snakes to me, and I handle them gently and safety. The primary feeling I have while I am handling is not fear or anxiety for my own safety, but caring and concern for the snake's health and comfort. My safety skills are basically on autopilot, and my main mental focus is on making the experience a comfortable one for the animal.
Most of my little buddies are pretty well habituated to captivity, and are easy as pie to work with. They are mostly quite polite about moving into their trap boxes during cage cleaning and taking food in a mannerly way when it's handed over. I use behavioral management techniques that are taught by the AZA to habituate them to standard husbandry routines. This is not to say that I take foolish chances with my animals, but they get plenty of hands-on care as soon as they need it. That's really not the hard part.
Anyone that dosent see my point there is probibally one of those that keeps venomous to prove how big your balls are and id rather see people keep them that actually respected the creature.
I don't have any balls at all. LOL
LdyDrgn
09-17-04, 09:33 PM
If you DON'T spay a non breeding female ferret, her quality of life and her risk of developing some very uncomfortable and/or life threatening conditions goes through the roof. The same can happen to female dogs.
Cats, too, Tanith. They develop uterine cysts if never bred and it will end up killing the animal if not spayed in time. If cysts exist, not only are the ovaries removed, but so are the uteri.
leoncurrie
09-17-04, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by MsTT
There are responsible, skilled adults who are well enough educated to safely do some fairly dangerous things in a safe manner. Eg, racecar drivers, professional stunt people, horse trainers, parachute jumpers, etc.
There are also some drunken redneck yahoos whose last words are likely to be something like "Y'all watch this".
LMFAO..... omg MsTT.... great compairison. When I read
"There are also some drunken redneck yahoos whose last words are likely to be something like "Y'all watch this""... It remined me of my girlfriends brother. It described his personality to a tee!
Originally posted by KsKing
I also believe that venomous snakes would make terrible pets as they are alot more agressive than other nonvenomous snakes.
Absolute bullhooey. The consequences are much worse if you are bitten by a venomous snake, but in my experience handling both venomous and nonvenomous species, many of the venomous species become calm and habituated to handling just as well or better than many nonvenomous species. There are some species both venomous and nonvenomous that are notoriously placid and hard to provoke into a bite, and there are some species that are notoriously irascible and nearly impossible to get calmed down even after years in captivity. It's a species by species thing, and it's definitely not divided along venomous/nonvenomous lines.
Cottonmouths and mambas are among my favorite snakes to work with for photography because they calm down so readily in captivity. They can be cooperatively posed, moved around, handled, tailed, etc, with less fuss than the average king snake. North American corals and many krait species are also docile bordering on the ridiculous. It's extremely difficult to get them to bite defensively. Kraits tend to hide their heads and curl up in a scared ball like ball pythons when you handle them. It's kind of cute. It cannot be defined as "aggressive" by any possible stretch of the imagination.
I absolutely do not recommend freehandling a venomous snake or being careless with one. But if somebody were to put a gun to my head and give me the choice of freehandling one of my snakes or getting shot, I would have a pretty wide range of animals I could put on my lap or around my neck and expect them to act no different from a boa constrictor. No, I wouldn't actually DO that without a gun to my head, but you get the idea. Freehandling venomous snakes is stupid, because even a nice boa constrictor might get frightened or smell a mouse or mistake the handler for food and take a bite. Even a "tame" venomous snake may do the same thing, and it's not worth the risk.
That is a matter of opinion as well and it is not entirely different than neutering a dog. Dosent that dog need its nuts to provide the hormones that make it function like a normal animal?
Look, no offense meant, but you are making a lot of statements that are just not backed up by the facts. You are not familiar with how venomous snake keeping actually works on a day to day basis, you have some fairly silly beliefs about how venomous snakes behave, and you do not know enough about veterinary medicine to draw any real conclusions about what is and isn't good surgical protocol.
What evidence do you have that ligation is superior to orchidectomy for long term health results in male canines? If you have any solid veterinary evidence, published studies, papers, etc, please post them. If you're just making explanations up because you think they should make sense or because you heard them somewhere, please do some research homework.
I'm sure we're all weary of flogging this dead horse at this point however... Within a free society we accept the right of sane, sensible adults to practice and participate in activities which while certainly dangerous to a degree, can be engaged in with limited risk if approached in an intelligent manner. Venomous reptile husbandry is a PRIVILEDGE we enjoy as members of a free society and a priviledge i believe we should be able to continue to enjoy as long as those of us engaged in it do so in a way that protects the public as a whole from harm and us from harm as much as is possible. By way of example, people go horseback riding everyday and your odds of being seriously injured or killed pursuing this activity are FAR higher than the odds facing a venomous herpetoculturist following fairly basic safety practices even when you factor in the difference in the number or people participating out of society as a whole. There will always be bad seeds in any group of people and the venomous community certainly provides a more sensational outlet but it is not an isolated microcosm independent of the overall society and these few individuals should not (but do) taint peoples inpression of venomous keepers.
Secondly I wish to say their will always be practices which other people engage in which I can't reconcile, bungie jumping for instance, I'm sure bungie jumpers could converse quite elloquently about its merits and yet be wholely unable to convince me that it has any value. I however admit my vast ignorance of many things and accept their right to hold to their practices and pursuits in life so long as it doesn't threaten me or society as a whole and I believe that this is the attitude that people should take with the venomous community.
Just my two sense.
Originally posted by emilsmee what about a hurricane? what happens if the snakes survive and their enclosures are destroyed? you always have to think of the worst case scenerio when owning a dangerous animal
We get plenty of warning for hurricanes. My hurricane protocol is to bag and box all the critters and lock them in sturdy, heavy truck boxes. I'd be more worried about earthquakes, since you get no warning on those.
i just feel there are some animals people should not own at all.
I feel there are many animals including most exotic mammals, iguanas, crocodilians, venomous snakes and large constrictors that should only be kept by people who can demonstrate a high degree of competence in their care. This is not so much to prevent injury to humans as to maintain a good standard of care for the animals. Too many exotics are poorly maintained by people who simply don't know how to care for them and do not provide adequate diet, housing or veterinary care.
In short if you can't provide a bloody good home for an animal and keep it healthy, you have no business keeping it. It is very difficult to provide a high standard of care for some exotic species. The average person can't do it. But the seriously dedicated person with professional level skills and equipment can.
I would prefer to support a fair system of licensing and inspection by (hopefully) knowledgeable wildlife officers. This way, exotic animals with special dietary, veterinary or housing needs could only be kept by people who are maintaining the same high standards of care that zoos and other institutions are held to.
iguanafreak
09-17-04, 10:31 PM
why is this thread even here ? fogodsake...... its like piontless debate.....should get a debating forums....
Cruciform
09-17-04, 10:37 PM
Anything that provides people with dramatic entertainment plus manages to sneak in useful information when they're wrapped up in it can't do any harm. :)
As usual our resident hot keepers have performed admirably, providing well thought out and detailed posts that educate both regulars and newbies alike.
I still think Hooters ban shouldn't have been lifted though. Oh well.
iguanafreak
09-17-04, 10:48 PM
yeah, but some people read the wrong post, most likly the newbies, and get mysimformed...but its just very sad reading post about fangs getting pulled of snakes, i removes apart of them thats makes them awsome, and its a part of them thats just there for a reason, jez.. Anyways, i'm out of this thread..
BWSmith
09-17-04, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by iguanafreak
why is this thread even here ? fogodsake...... its like piontless debate.....should get a debating forums....
Actually, I feel that it is a relevant question, even if it was worded rather poorly and brought another heated topic into the discussion in the first post.
We have some very fine hot keepers here that are much more eloquent than me. I think that most valid questions have been addressed. Any other relevant questions regarding hot keeping, I am sure are welcome, but the venomoid debate belongs elsewhere. If any of you are curious about the subject, there are several very informative threads already in existence (on this site and countless others). It gets tiresome hearing the same arguments that have already been addressed time and time again.
If you have questions about hots or hot keeping, feel free to ask. But if you do not know, then do not make presumptions or concoct facts. Given how misunderstood reptiles are by the public, I am surprised by the assumptions by those that do not keep venomous about those of us that do.
Responsible venomous keepers are not egomaniacs with a croc hunter complex. We simply work with the animals we love. There is no magic to hot keeping. In my mind, hot keeping boils down to one word .............. "dedication". One has to have the dedication to learn safe procedures, the animals, protocols, training, and a thousand other things that we do out of habit and instinct. No magic, not so different from keeping any other animal other than the diversity and complexity of information and potentially higher consequences.
thunder
09-17-04, 11:20 PM
as a hot keeper and as a person who has done animal rescue and rehab: my two cents.
i have seen many (maybe even into 3 digits) of venemous snakes dead or dying because of venemoid "operations". broken jaws, horrible infection to the point that you can smell it from across the room and the snake cant close its mouth. the luckiest individuals end up with massive scaring, and take a long time to heal. these animals are in horrible pain. this is not something that we should even be debating. if a person wants a snake that is not venemous, they should buy a nonvenemous snake. if i want a basset hound, i dont go out and get a blood hound and then cut its legs off.
critcal bill: if you cannot control a poisonous snake to the degree that you are confident that it will not get away from you, you should not be doing education with venemous snakes. all you are doing is damage to those of us who are serious about the hobby. kids in the audience will either a) think it is ok to freehandle hots or b) think it is ok to mutilate animals for your owm benifit. the fact that your animals were altered in a "humane" and "safe" way does not make it ok. you have comitted a lesser crime when compared to garage hack jobs, but a crime nonetheless. go get yourself some ball pythons (not meant to be derogatory to bp ppl).
ksking: if you didnt want to start a flame war, you shouldnt have attacked a way of life. if you were really just seeking info, you would of backed down when numerous experienced individuals spoke up.
i am so angry that i am shaking. i need to go check on the rattlers to make sure they are still intact. . .
Mustangrde1
09-18-04, 07:53 AM
To save people from clicking the link I put up Here is an article that I think will help people understand venomous keepers and potentially keepers of other exotics or potentially dangerous animals.
Venomous keepers have had a reputation I have heard and seen misconstrued by many people of them being “Elite”. Something I have thought about for a while and just really sunk in this weekend in speaking with a good friend.
I thought maybe a look in to some of what Venomous Keepers do and the lifestyles related to our venomous charges might help the other reptile keepers understand us better.
We are not elite or above anyone, In fact many of us started with non-venomous and still keep them in our collections. Just like many in the hobby we breed them sell them collect them. From Boa Constrictors to Corn Snakes time and effort is put in to each individual animal with the same love and compassion.
Where we stand apart in the minority of the hobby is we keep the highly deadly creatures by term of venom. I sometimes find that amusing because once you get past the mystic of venom they are but another reptile. Large constrictors as well as crocodilian are fully capable of killing a person just as dead. Large Varanus are capable of inflicting disfiguring bites. All these animals have something in common they are all capable of inflicting major damage to the keeper if certain safety protocols are not in place. Yet many people keep them and find them rather simple and harmless to work with. Many Venomous Keepers find their animals simple to work with as well. This is from the time and experience put in to them just like the time and effort large constrictor, crocodilian ball python or even corn snake keepers put in to their charges.
This by no means should encourage that anyone should go out and purchase a venomous reptile because they can handle aggressive non-venomous species. In fact I discourage it strongly to minors or persons with small children. Many venomous keepers seriously have altered their houses or at least one room to be completely escape proof and invested large amounts of time and money in the remodeling of the room and cages.
If we can use the State of Florida for an example as to the degree one must put in to learning and education they must obtain before being allowed to own a venomous reptile I think it will show some what of the cost some venomous keepers must face.
The Law in Florida is in brief that a person must have no less than 1 year not to be less than 1000 hours in the “Care, Feeding, Handling, Husbandry of the species for which the permit is sought.” With this in mind most persons who wish to go through the process and obtain their Venomous Reptiles Permit” VRL” do so as volunteers with persons who own the species that the trainee wishes some day own.
As volunteers by nature are NOT paid for their time and efforts it is done at the expense of the trainee. If one was to look at the potential cost for this training it shows a very high level of commitment and personal cost. Factoring in that the average pet shop employee is making for sake of argument $7.00 and hour then over the training period of 1000 hours it equates to $7,000.00 of the trainees time. Factoring in the for other expenses such as gas and food during training of another $1,000.00 and then looking at the high probability that the trainee purchases literature and or does web research we can easily factor in another $ 2,000.00 in time and publications. Now we can not forget caging, Venomous reptiles require locking escape proof caging and most keepers go with high dollar cages for piece of mind such as Vision, Neodesha , Precision and the like. The price on these cages and other caging needs can easily reach $1,000.00. So we are looking at a potential out of pocket expense of $11,000.00 for that first venomous snake.
Ok so some of you are saying no way. Well think about it how, much are you paid an hour at work? Or how much have you spent on caging or reptile related products and books? It is a very real number when factoring it all in to account. That is one hell of an expensive first snake and I didn’t even factor in the animals cost or actual cost for permits.
Training is always a difficult prospect in the aspect you must first locate someone to train you. This can be a very difficult task and one that may lend to the “Elite” misconception people perhaps view Venomous keepers in that light because many when approached refuse to help train. This can be explained in that the financial responsibilities if a trainee were to be bitten can be great. Also many of these people are afraid of taking on persons who may not have the right attitude for handling potentially lethal creatures. Others may just not want people knowing fully what is in their collection and are worried that if it was known animals could be stolen or the potential trainee decides to start bringing friends over to show off, which again lends to financial responsibility to the owner of the animals. Some of these people just like to be left alone as well.
Now if you are able to locate a person willing to train you. You should feel very comfortable with this person at all times. Your life is in his/her hands as their life is in yours. Unlike dealing with non-venomous where a bite be it painful it is not going to be disfiguring or fatal. Some persons who have started training have stopped do to the harshness of the trainer. The seriousness of the trainer is viewed as well as “Elite” which in fact is not. It is however from experience and knowledge of the species and their potential dangers much stricter in discipline. Working with dangerous species be them Venomous reptiles Large constrictor, Varanus species, Crocodilians or even Big Cats or other large Carnivores does require much more attention to safety and a seriousness not associated with species that are considered less dangerous to humans.
Working with all the above animals is never and should never be allowed by novice persons with no experience in the nature or habits of the animals involved. All animal have certain predictable traits within the species but each animal’s temperament and attitude can vary greatly within the same species including siblings / clutch mates. This is where training comes in with experienced persons in their prospective fields or hobbies. A good trainer can make you aware of the natural traits of similarity and prepare you for the surprises that can also be found within the species. These people have seen many things and have learned to deal with them as they arise. In speaking to many persons who have delt with animals categorized as “Dangerous” one thing I have found is the overwhelming importance of remaining calm under all conditions.
In some peoples minds a very calm attitude is perceived as “Elite” this is not true at all. It is in fact something gained over years of experience in working with particular species. In some cases however people are seen doing highly dangerous acts with very dangerous animals. Keep in mind this is not an “Elite” attitude. Many of the acts you see on television or in a circus or other amusement arena are under highly controlled circumstances. There are many safety protocols and large crews on hand for added safety. These are shows designed to gain ratings or bring in the general public for profit.
Free Handling of venomous snakes is another example of why people think of venomous keepers as “Elite” This is not a wise idea by any stretch of the imagination. In fact many venomous keepers frown on this activity. Again this is done in many cases with extreme safety protocols in place. Or devenomised reptiles being used. This action and these animals are in fact a danger to our hobby in a whole in many ways. But that’s for other discussions.
It really comes down to the keeper’s attitude as perceived by others. I have read and met many keepers of numerous species not just reptiles that do have an “elite” attitude and for myself have no respect for these people or their followers. It is these people and their mental aspect that they are “Elite” and better then everyone else that gives any hobby or group within hobby bad names. Venomous keepers are no better or worse then any other group of persons. The major difference however is the overwhelming amount of personal time and research we must for our safety put in to certain aspects of our hobby.
Not to take away from any one group or add to any one group. It is just any group of persons dealing with a potentially dangerous animal or hobby does have to put a little more in to it then a group of people not working with potentially dangerous activities.
If you look at driving for instance it is required that a person must obtain a license and pass a test under supervision. Driving is a dangerous activity and thus is regulated. Venomous reptile keeping is becoming more and more regulated. Because of these laws I see more people will soon be coming to current keepers and asking for help. Remember to respect and listen to these teachers and their advice. Remember they are not gods or “Elite” in any way but like their counterparts in other dangerous hobbies they have the experience needed.
Many people like placing pictures of them and their animals on the web or in magazines. General perception of any “Dangerous” animal and their handlers is viewed as by some crazy or persons with large egos or other opinions based on lack of understanding of the person or time they have spent learning about that particular species. You can hear it in a crowd or even read it on the net and much of what you hear or read comes off as “Elite” Again this is not true it is something anyone can do with proper training and understanding of the species. I have never bungee jumped but I am sure with proper training and advice I could.
If a person has the right mentality and the reflexes to handle and work with these animals and in some cases that sixth since to predict them before they act it does not make them better or worse the anyone else and certainly does not make them “Elite.” Venomous reptile keeping is certainly not for everyone and not everyone should own or work with them. Just like working with the large carnivores is not for everyone.
Mustangrde1
09-18-04, 08:01 AM
Maybe a small insight to what hot keepers training is like will also help. BW and Tanyth Both of you have wrote incredable articles as well and perhaps its time one thread gets them this is as good as any.
This is your beginning in hot keeping. Day 1 of training for keeping of venomous reptiles when you get acquainted with the tools of the trade. The snakes hook they come in all shapes and sizes from little collapsible that are no more than 6 inches to massive python hooks up to 8 feet long. Snake probes that look like your mothers knitting needless. Snake tubes plastic tubes for placing snakes in for safe handling that look more suitable for holding paper towels or toilet paper then putting snakes in. Tongs for grabbing snakes that make you think your going out picking up trash in a park rather then picking up snakes. Ha you thought on day one you would be handling the animals think again. You have to be good at the tools of the trade and comfortable with them on nonvenomous snakes before getting close to the real animals.
First Grade.
As you trainer says are you ready for some fun today and your eyes are bright and bulging starring at the hot room and dreams of working with venomous snakes are bouncing through your head. You teacher says the ball python cages are dirty and need cleaning as do all the other nonvenomous animals. Your heart sinks and your nose curls as you relies that this is not going to be a quick deal to work with venomous but a long slow process where you will be putting in your dues.
Your teacher walks out with you and says every cage needs to be cleaned and every animal needs to be treated as though it were HOT and you must use the proper tools to safely remove them out of the cage and place them in a safety container. Then you must clean the cages and replace the animal using the same safety procedures.
At this point your thinking I am this guys slave just for cleaning cages and am never going to get to handle the venomous I want to.
Second Grade.
After several weeks of properly under supervision of your trainer cleaning cages you hear him / her say OK today we work with the hots. Your heart stops your eyes bulge and you think finally I get to work with them. He walks toward the hot room you hot on his heals and he stops you at the door and says you stand here. He then walks in and opens a Cobras cage. You are thinking all right my turns coming and he says here go clean this cage and repaper it. Back to cage cleaner you go. All day long you repeat this procedure watching him over and over remove the animals himself you wish to work with and handing you the cage to clean.
This goes on for several weeks you watching him handling. You are thinking why did I even want to learn from this guy or why do I even want to be here if I cant handle the snakes myself. I am just a cage cleaner for this person but I do get to at least see the snakes.
Third Grade.
Finally after several months of cage cleaning you walk in and he says sit down we need to talk. You are wondering what is going on what have I done wrong my teacher looks so serious and is wanting to have a sit down, here goes my training I have pissed him off or something.
He says ok Joe/Jane. What have you learned in the last few months? You pause and think, You say well I have learned how to use Tongs and Hooks so many times cleaning cages that its like an appendage of my own body. I have learned how to get the snakes out of their cages without getting bit. I can smell a dirty tank at 50 paces or a regurge at 100 yards. Your trainer says OK have you been bit since you started using the tools here or at home? You think No, I no longer just reach in to a cage without thinking. Your trainer ask Are your own cages kept cleaner now? You think yes they are I can now smell them when they are dirty and IM more alert to cleaning them on site also. Your trainer ask do you just open cages now without looking first? You stop and think NO i now look for the animal in all cages before opening.
Congratulations Mr. Cage Cleaner without your knowledge your trainer broke the bad habits that could have got you killed. You now look before opening a cage. You now use the proper tools for handling. You now pay more attention in what your about to do instead of just reaching in and grabbing the animal to do what's needed.
Your keeper say OK today we need to sex some animals today you get some hands on training. Your thinking to yourself hot dog I get to get some animals out and probe them and handle them. As you and your trainer walk towards the door he stops you again and says wait here. He walks in the room and opens up an Eastern Diamond Backs cage and hooks the animal out. Your thinking OK very dangerous for two people to be in the room he is going to bring it out here for me to work with. As you watch in disbelief as he manipulates it in to a tube and then picks it up and says OK go ahead and probe it.
Fourth Grade.
Well, now you are at least getting to touch the venomous reptiles even though you have probably probed many snakes of your own. You watch your trainer get out many snakes for probing. You see him carefully open the boxes/cages they are in being sure to keep his body parts away from the strike range of the animals. You watch him take his time with the animals to manipulate them in to the tubes.
After doing this for some time he says to you OK come in the room. You are going OK now IM going to what sweep the floor mop it maybe or get clean some of the empty cages after all I am The Great Cage Cleaner.
Your thinking man I have been doing this for 4 months now and the closest I get is to their poop or the poop shoot. When out of the blue your trainer says OK open that box up over there its all yours. Your eyes light up your heart jumps a beat your thinking finally I GET TO GET ONE OUT. you go over to the box and open it up as you trainer says how did the bite on your finger feel because you stuck your fingers under the lid when opening. You look at him and say "I did not get bit." He says look in the box and you see its empty except for a plastic snake ad your thinking "What the hell." You look at your trainer and relies he fooled you! Or did he? He said how did the bite feel and you relies You did put your fingers under the lid and had it been real you would have been bit. You let your emotion and anxiousness get you in trouble. You relies had it been real you would now be on your way to the hospital.
You just received a very valuable lesson in never getting ahead of yourself because your so eager to see or work with an animal. The animal not going place so there is never a reason for you not to take things slow and matriculas with deliberate actions and purpose.
Fifth Grade
Your come in after that major eye opening experience and are wondering what is going to be next. I really blew it with that cage opening I could have been bit. I didn't look first to see where the animal was I didn't use proper technique in opening the cage. I was to excited about getting to work with the animal and broke every rule I had learned. You trainer looks at you and says what are you thinking about as he sees your thinking hard. You tell him and he says." You are now starting to show the maturity and thought needed to see your own mistakes so you do not make them again."
He tells you not to dwell on your mistakes but to learn from them now when they don't kill you. He says OK lets go back in the room. He points to a box and says it needs to be cleaned. You go over and look inside and see what appears to be a live snake in it, but the box is to cloudy to tell which species so you place it on a counter and pop the lid so its still on but never opened. you then reach for a small hook and open it. You had on your mind the disaster from before and do not want to risk it again especially knowing there is a live snake in this box! As you use the hook to open the box lid you see what appears to be Lataste's Viper "Vipera latastei". You are in heaven finally I get to work with a hot even if its just the repetition of taking the animal out and placing it in a safety holding container to clean the cage. You reach in with the hook carefully remove the viper and place it in the hold container. You go about cleaning the cage and changing the water. Then you replace the snake in the container and put the lid back on. As you do it you feel a sharp pain and relies you had your fingers under the lip of the lid and have been bit. You turn in a state of shock and look at your trainer and tell him you just got bit. He looks at you in a funny glare and says You were so excited to have been working with the animal you forgot that placing a lid on is just as dangerous as taking one off. Fortunately what you thought to be the Lataste's Viper "Vipera latastei" was just a very nice Solomon's Island Ground Boa "Candoia ssp". One though that looks very similar to the deadly Lataste's Viper "Vipera latastei."
Another important lesson learned today in patents and attentiveness. One that caused some pain and blood this time but at least it wasn't fatal.
Sixth Grade.
You have learned now how to clean cages, You have learned from your mistakes that not being patent and not thinking ahead can be painful if not down right deadly. You need to look back over these last six months or so and think to yourself is it worth it to proceed? Do I really want to work with animals that can with one mistake take my life or disfigure me?
At this point in your training you have learned much, you relies there is more to keeping venomous reptiles then just sticking them in a cage and throwing in food once in a while.
After reflection of what you have seen and learned you still want to proceed with your training. You know there is no substitute for safety and awareness of your surroundings and that you must always maintain a calm and collected thought train to what your doing never letting emotions dictate how you handle or work with the animals.
Just like in School you have to learn, sometimes learning is not fun and sometimes it is. Looking back over your grade school introduction to venomous reptiles you have learned the very basics ones you probably already had knowledge of. How to use a hook, how to use tongs, How to use tubes, How to clean cages. But now your trainer has forced you to use the tools more then you ever would have for your own collection of nonvenomous reptiles. He/She has taught you safety through repetition. Having a hook in your hand is now just and extension of your own hand. You are so comfortable with a hook or tong that is second nature. Your nose has developed in to a sharply tuned crap smeller. Your eyes have become safety tools for noticing things out of place or out of the ordinary. Your Brain now thinks about all places in a cage an animal can use to hide from site before you open it. Safety is always on your mind. You have learned all these things but more importantly you have developed a more mature and mental understanding of the animals and yourself.
Congratulation the elementary levels have been learned.
The Middle School
Seventh Grade
Today you walk in to and your trainer says its time for you to get to know the hot room. He says go one in and I will be there in a moment. You have learned from the past that training is never as simple as that and you open the door and look in and see on the floor a box that looks like a lid was popped open. What do you do? The box could have had a snake in it and now its out! You error on the side of caution and tell your trainer about what you just observed. He says good IM glad you didn't go in the room although I did place it there to see your reaction.
So now the two of you go in and he says today we go over the basics of a hot room. First thing is to make certain all cages are of a locking nature or secured to prevent escapes. The room itself should be completely escape proof with a locking door and any vents should be screened to prevent escape. You should know where all tools you need are located at all times and the floor kept clear of debris as well as the counter tops. A ll the cages should be properly marked and labeled to what species is in them. An emergency protocol book should be handy and all emergency numbers posted. Emergency lighting set up in case of a power outage.
Your trainer says familiarize yourself with everything in the room. He then hands you the protocol book for you to see what's in it.
A list of all species that is kept is list in this book along with the species is where they are from what their habitat is their prey and importantly the type of antivenin needed in case of a bite along with where to obtain it. All the phone numbers of other keepers in your area are listed as well as Miami Dade Fire Rescue and Poison Control. There are also papers in their on treatment for bites for each of the species kept. You notice a "DNR"order Do Not Resuscitate order and a living will. Also is the keepers full medical records. All of these things are important to have in this book in the event of a bite. They will help the hospital in better treating a bite when it occurs.
"My own DNR/LIVING WILL specifically states that I do not wish to be saved if I cannot live a high quality of life after a bite. I spelled out very specifically what I felt was quality of life. I do not wish to be a vegetable or burden on my spouse. I also states in there that only My wife and my best friend who is also a qualified paramedic and one of the finest snake keepers are to make any and all decisions on my medical care and wishes in the event IM not capable of making them. I know many hospitals are not qualified do to lack of understanding of snake bites to make these important determinations. And felt that it is best to leave those decisions in the qualified minds of people who understand venomous reptiles and what occurs post bite"
Now that you have done all this your trainer says OK we have a few cages need attention today. He pulls out some boxes and says OK your turn. You look around and see the animal at the far end of the cage and pop the lid and use a hook to lift it. Inside you see a small copperhead.
You use your hook to remove the snake and place it in a secure container and clean its cage and water it and place a small hopper in.
You then replace the snake and using the hook to slide the lid back on and push it down to secure it. You move on to the next cage and the next cage the same way checking each one first.
Finally your working with venomous species though they are small and relatively harmless copperheads at least you now getting hands on training. You are deep in to concentration of what your doing when you here a crash from behind after you just put the last box away what do you do? As you turn and relies that the rack holding the black mambas just fell! 12 baby black mambas just hit the ground. Scary prospects isn't it? At this point instinct should hopefully take in and you grab a hook along side your trainer and look to be certain all the containers are still in tact and no shoestrings of death got out. Yes, it was nerve racking but all is OK and no escapes happened. This is a very valuable lesson in calm and taking in what happened what needs to be done and how important it is that when working in a hot room to know your surroundings and tool placement and where other persons are. Inside that room your life and that of any person in it is in your hands.
Eighth Grade
A joyful time has arrived many news specimens just arrived and they need to be unpacked. Unlike when your at home and get in new animals these are venomous and deadly. So no reaching in with your hands. Your trainer explains to you that when you open each crate to be very careful as snakes might have escaped their bags. You open each box up and carefully with a hook move bags around to insure no escapes. Your trainer then uses a pair of tongs to carefully remove each bag and place it on a counter top. He tells you to prepare cages and fill a trash can with some water. You ask him why the trash can with water. He explains these animals need to soak and get rehydrated. after preparing the trash can and cages he pulls the bag flat with a pair of hemostats and places a hook securely between the knot and the snake and unties the bag. Then with the bag untied he uses two hemostats to pic up the bag and place it in the trash can to allow the animal to go directly in. Wow a Cobra.
After letting the animal soak its time to put it in the cage and put him away. Remember to label the cage so you know its a cobra or whatever species.
On to the next bag its obviously a heavy bodied animal that his huffing and puffing. You watch your trainer perform the same procedure with the hemostats and hook then see the bag jump and two very large fangs blow through the bags. You relies that had a part of anyone's body been on it they would now be envenomated by a viper. After the shock of what has happened your trainer dumps it in the trash can to soak and you see this outstanding Gaboon Viper. It should settle in how deadly this animal is and what would have happened had it bitten through the bag.
Though bags offer some protection a snake can and will bite through one and unfortunately people have been bit during this very dangerous time of unpacking animals.
Ninth Grade
After the day before and the mental and visual lessons you just learned with the knowledge someday you will be the one having to do these exact same procedures as yourself again "Is it worth it to keep venomous."
OK you know today the animals are going to need to be medicated and inspected for external parasites and quarantined from the general population. This is a very dangerous day as you know that oral medication mean dealing with the business end of the animals. You and your trainer are in the room and HE/SHE is getting out the animals for proper medications to be administered. You watch as he pins a cobra and inserts a tube in its mouth as it chomps down on the tube and venom starts flowing his fingers only inches from those fangs and a sure bite with one slip. He/She moves on to the Gaboon Viper pinning the head and as he lifts it bites down sending its own fangs through its bottom jaw missing his finger by millimeters. This is one of the nasty things a viper can do and improper placement of a finger will get you bit as sure as the sun rises in the East. One Hundred percent concentration is needed for dealing with animals on this level and an understanding of proper handling. It should be said that unless it is absolutely needed NEVER handle a venomous reptiles with your hands. Quarantine time!
High School
Tenth Grade
Wow its been 8 months of learning and seeing things that should make you stop and think a few hundred times if its worth it to keep venomous reptiles.
At this point you should be able to clean cages and work the tools like they have always been part of your body. You should have and instinct about you that heads of danger where the average person would not see it. You have developed a since of awareness of your surroundings and a calm about you and deliberate action when working with the animals.
You should be working now with the species you wish to own and reading about them constantly. Contacting other keepers and asking questions about the animal/animals. Your trainer should be instructing you on the fine points of the husbandry of the species.
Eleventh Grade
Time to start the at home work. Setting up your hotroom, Getting your cage ready. With the cage don't skimp out and get cheap you have spent almost a year of your life now studying and learning about the animal. With so much time already dedicated to this get them a nice cage. Take the time to set it up nice with hidden hide boxes water dishes lighting and "LOCKS," be sure to get your emergency protocol set up and start contacting local hospitals and find a doctor who will be willing to treat you if your bit with knowledge. Take the time to set an appointment with him and give him a copy of your protocol book and discuss it fully and always keep him updated on what species you keep. Inform the local fire department as well in case they are ever needed. It is also a good idea to meet your local police officers and let them know as well. Some may ask why your telling them but if a 911 call goes out many times police respond or if your out of town and your house is broken in to they will be responding. If the criminals have let out a venomous reptile you don't want the officer to get bit. Being responsible is a major part of hot keeping and that extends to person who may have to enter your house in an emergency.
The Senior Graduation.
Now is time to look back one last time and reflect on everything you have seen and the inherit dangers of working with venomous snakes. Ask yourself one last time is it worth it?
After 1 year and accumulating 1000 hours of training "I use Florida's permitting system" it is time to get you permit. You need to have documented proof of One full year at least with dates and times of area/areas you received your training. You need to have documented proof of 1000 hours minimum to accompany that year signed off by your trainer. You must have two letters of recommendation as well and be able to provide proof and knowledge in the Care, Feeding, Handling and Husbandry. All this has to be in triplicate and sent to Tallahassee for review.
After they review it they forward on to their field officers for an inspection of your premises. If all goes well you will now be mailed your venomous reptile license" VRL".
This is by no way meant to be a training guide for anyone. It is merely some of what a person might go through if they wish to obtain a venomous reptile. Proper training is crucial for safety. I used the school mentality as it is a simple way to keep tabs of a process.
thunder
09-18-04, 02:31 PM
mustang, your article is wonderful. it really shows exactly how much committment is involved in proper hot keeping. i hope that individuals who disparage the hobby, or consider all hot keepers to be macho muscleheads, can read what you have written, and be educated.
jglass38
09-18-04, 08:22 PM
This thread has descended into stupidity. People who keep hots safely should be allowed to continue to do so. People who keep them just so they can tell people they have a venomous snake are idiots. This guy is obviously a troll of the highest order and has proceeded to get everyone into an uproar with inflammatory comments. BTW, has anyone mentioned the cancer risk reduction with spaying and neutering of dogs and cats? Here are some facts below from The Humane Society:
Spaying and neutering helps dogs and cats live longer, healthier lives.
Spaying and neutering can eliminate or reduce the incidence of a number of health problems that can be very difficult or expensive to treat.
Spaying eliminates the possibility of uterine or ovarian cancer and greatly reduces the incidence of breast cancer, particularly when your pet is spayed before her first estrous cycle.
Neutering eliminates testicular cancer and decreases the incidence of prostate disease.
Those are just the health related reasons.
Peace,
Jamie
EDIT: Sorry, I posted this before reading through the last page. Mustang, awesome posts and very informative. Maybe this thread isn't all bad after all.
cobraman
09-18-04, 09:12 PM
Now im refering to snakes like cobras, mambas, gaboons, tiapans, and the sort. You know the kind, If you get bit your going to die.
Very FEW collectors in the U.S. die from cobra bites. In fact, there are VERY FEW deaths from any snake bites in the United States. More people are killed by dogs each year than snakes.
Also I dont understand why everyone gets so worked up about venomoids (snakes with fangs surgically removed).
You should learn about what you are going to post about prior to posting so you don't make yourself look so foolish. Venomoid does NOT mean removed fangs, it is the removed venom gland or venom duct. Fangs grow back very fast.
You have the right to your opinion, so why not get rid of cars??? Do you know how many people die each year in cars???
Have fun.
Ray
ChurleR
09-19-04, 12:48 AM
It could be noted that an envenomation from a rattlesnake could kill you... if you refused all medical help. It would, however, be a day or more later after the venom had run its course and done its digestive duties. You would die from anaphylaxis or months later from secondary infection. All bites from venomous snakes should be taken just as seriously, no matter what species they may originate from. Plus long time keepers may have built up a hypersensitivity to the venom of the snakes they own just by breathing in any dried venom turned to dust. Keepers always keep this in mind have proper safety protocols (including injectable antihistimines close by just in case of an allergic reaction to the venom). Do not ever assume that just because someone got bit by a rattlesnake or a copperhead that their life is not in danger...
I will add however, I'd be much more scared if I got bitten by an <i>Echis</i> or a <i>Thelatornsis</i>. I don't keep either, but I sure do like to look at sawscales, they're incredibly beautiful to me.
*Goes to sleep*
Originally posted by KsKing
Samba get a clue!
Speak for yourself!
Great, informitive posts, everyone! I really enjoyed reading the detailed protocols of hot-keeping, and someday, way, WAY off into the far future, I hope to own a few hot species myself.
KsKing - you wanted information, now you have it from the horses mouth... these people love and handle hots everyday... I hope you have kept an open mind and learned what you came to learn.
ladyluck
09-20-04, 12:30 PM
Was someone talking to meeeeee>?
SCReptiles
09-20-04, 08:24 PM
KsKing, you raised a lot of questions and I will try to address everything you want to know and give the reasons why many of us do it. I did not read every reply, so if I repeat something, I apologize. First, why do we keep them. Cause we want to and God and country give us the right to risk our own lives for anything we see fit, just as long as it doesn’t endanger a third party. You mention venomous snakes as exotic killers. On average about 5 people a year die in the US from envenomation. Usually those are all people in the field encountering indigenous snakes, however, in the last two years we have lost 2 keepers to Rhino Vipers. Dogs kill far more people per yeah in the US then snakes. Also there are many cases of escaped dogs killing a third party. There are no documented cases of escaped snakes ever harming a third party. Do you happen to know what animal kills more people per year in the US then any other? Answer is horses, but I have yet to see any legislation banning the keeping of horses. So you know why we keep them, now lets look at benefits of keeping them. Keepers like Chris Harper have advanced medical care for snake bite and probably saved lives. He has medical knowledge and works as a EMT. He studies and records his finding continually on envenomation first aid. If he were not a venomous keeper, the medical aspects of the snakes would not be as far advanced as they are. Keepers like Mardi Snipes have focused a great deal of their lives on breeding snakes. He studies breeding and keep detailed records. He has advanced the study of venomous snake breeding. One day it may be necessary to captive breed pit vipers to return to the wild and his research will be valuable to those efforts. Also, research is being conducted that shows copperhead venom can be used to treat breast cancer. Would this research be as far advanced as it is if it were not for people collecting, keeping, breeding, and providing snakes to people like Jim Harrison so he can extract the venom and provide it to labs? If this research pans out and the venom is needed on a wide scale basis, who are they going to turn to? The ball python keepers of the world will not be much help. They will turn to us and the information Mardi has logged will make mass producing simple and lives will be saved. I think Brian said if you have to ask why, you can’t understand. That is true. It all about sub-cultures and the culture above yours just can’t understand you. The general public can not understand why you want to keep any snakes, but you understand. You don’t understand why we want to keep venomous snakes, but we understand why. And it goes on, many venomous keepers do not understand why I free hand venomous snakes, but I understand why. Each sub-culture gets a little smaller and a litter less understood. You made the statement most people survive Rattlesnake and copperhead bites. In the US, most people survive any snake bite. The King Cobra has more potential to kill then any other snake in the world. I derive that by looking at a combination of venom potency, venom yield, and propensity to envenomate. There are 1,000’s of kings in the US. Almost all zoos or reptile shows have them, all venom producers have them, and many collectors have them. Do you know how many people have died in the US as a result of King Cobra bites? The answer is none. I know of about a ˝ dozen survivors, and I have met two personally. With modern medical technology, they are not the killers you seem to be under the impression they are. Last year a man in Tampa took a Mamba bite, a severe one, and he is fine now. That technology is advanced because we are building on what the hot keepers of yesterday logged for us. If they had not done what we are doing now, more people would be dying. I don’t think you should have brought up voids, as this topic was wide enough as is, but since you did. I am sure many people enlighten you that the surgery has nothing to do with fang removal. I am not opposed to it, I feel that I do not want to limit anyone’s right to keep, because I do not like my rights limited. If someone wants a void, then more power to them. I did see one guy saying he only used them cause he teaches classes. I think that is total hogwash. If you can not safely control the snake, you are not in a position to try and teach anything about it. Quit butchering the snakes for that reason. Call BW or me, we will hold the snake for you and you can stay far away and lecture all you want. KsKing, I hope you get a chance to read this and I hope it enlightens you a little as to what we do. Thanks.
Mustangrde1
09-22-04, 03:04 PM
Chucck can I post this on IVRKS ommitting the name you are reffering it too. This is one of the best post i think i can ever recall on WHY. WELL SPOKEN..
side note how did you control yourself lol
SCReptiles
09-22-04, 05:52 PM
Certainly. Anyone is welcome to repost anything I write. Thanks for the compliment.
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