Egg Nests Poached

[Swampwalker]

I saw the following post in the Turtle Forums (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53575) and thought that this is something that needs to been seen by all herpers, not just turtle people. We all see and hear whats going on in the herp community and hopefully someone will be able to help out with information.


Originally posted by S Gillingwater
In late July/early August, multiple Spiny Softshell Turtle nests were stolen from a research site along the Thames River. If you have any information about this incident or on the sale of this species in Canada please contact me at the below number and email or contact the Aylmer District Ministry of Natural Resources office at (519)773-4700.
If you prefer to remain anonymous, contact Crime Stoppers at:
1-800-222-TIPS.

Authorities are still investigating this situation, but we are now going public to find the people involved and to highlight poaching issues in Ontario. This is a situation that can not be tolerated, as it comprimises both the species in the wild, and the research data being collected.

Thank you,
Scott D. Gillingwater
Chair, Spiny Softshell Turtle Recovery Team
Species at Risk Biologist
Upper Thames River Conservation Authority
(519) 451-2800 ext. 236
gillingwaters@thamesriver.on.ca

[Cruciform]

Yeah, I saw that earlier today. That's right in my area. I'll be keeping an eye out on local bulletin boards and stuff. Maybe the thieves are stupid... most are :)

[CamHanna]

I didn't want to see this thread fall off the first page.

[marisa]

I don't know much about those species of turtle, or the research site,,,,but maybe it wasn't theives? Just some kids who found a turtle nest? I know when I was younger I flipped out with excitment over finding any sort of eggs.

Marisa

[Holy Mackerel]

Theives or not, this can't be a good thing. The life history of turtles puts them at such great risk, to the point that removing a single adult out of a small population can devestate that whole population.

This turtle being so isolated can't afford to have a reduced nest survival. Lets just hope that the ones that do hatch have some success in reaching maturity.

Scott, best of luck in the investigation!

Steve Jones

[dia]

Originally posted by marisa
I don't know much about those species of turtle, or the research site,,,,but maybe it wasn't theives? Just some kids who found a turtle nest? I know when I was younger I flipped out with excitment over finding any sort of eggs.

Marisa

Same here [going crazy when finding egg] but I don't think kids would loot -mutiple- sites.
Poor turtles, hope at least their being incubated and properly cared for.

[Cake]

"Being incubated and properly cared for"

This is not of any concern, whether or not they survive is not of importance. What is of importance is the fact that some dumbass took eggs out of the wild. Even if they do survive they will do nothing to help out the wild population which is declining due extremely low survivourship into adult populations.
But hey its all about having "cool" animals for the pet trade right, so lets all hope that they get find nice homes in aquariums, with good owners dont have the slightest idea about what conservation means.

[dia]

Cake, I'm not supporting the theift or the idea of the animals becoming pets. Not in the slightest.
But for the animals to [not only have been poached but] never hatch, hatch deformed from proper incubation [I don't know if this happens in turtles or not but...] or to live horrible lives in disgusting or subpar conditions would IMO be even worse.

Maybe I'm not looking at the bigger picture though.
I didn't mean for my comment upset you.

[Holy Mackerel]

Dia,

Reading the posts I beleive that the problem is that this shouldn't have ever happen in the first place. It is hard to even start thinking of the turtles out in captivity because conservation of our wildlife is everything.

It is unfortunate that the general public is poorly educated on conservation topics. Hopefully this will all change in the near future, becuase the future as we know it looks dim.

[Removed_2815]

This still belongs on the first page. Keep your eyes peeled everyone and let Scott, or myself, know if you have any tips you can offer.
Thanks for your help,
Ryan

[Holy Mackerel]

Ryan or Scott,

If the eggs were properly incubated, when would you be expecting the turtles to hatch or when would they have hatched?

It may be useful for people to know. If the sale of them were to occur, that would be the time to keep your eyes open.


Steve

[Removed_2815]

Steve,
Very good point. The Softshell eggs should have hatched by now had they have been left on the river. The turtles have been hatching since 9/16/04 at the site where my research is conducted.
Here is a photo of a baby for everyone's reference:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rbolton1/Folder/Baby%20Softshell.JPG

Thanks everyone,
Ryan

[Cake]

Awe, arent they so cute when they are jsut a bit bigger than a loonie.

Steve you know im on the same page as you on this one.

Dia, i didn't mean to attack you, it just seems to me that most people look at our herpetofauna, and think "wow that would be cool to have as a pet". The general public is not educated on the threats that long lived species encounter due to thier life history traits (delayed sexual maturity, low juvenile survivourship, etc). Nest survivourship is around 0-3% for unprotected nests. the work being done by Ryan, naturalists, Masters and Phd students, is giving these turtles a chance at being around after the aging adult population has died or been poached.

I challenge you to go out and look and find a juvenile/sub adult spiny softshell turtle, if your extremely lucky you might find an adult. Ask yourself after the fruitless search.....Once the adults die, where are the replacements to the breeding population coming from? the answer is from the nests that have been protected from predation. Oh wait, even thoose arent evem safe anymore.

I agree that this should be kept on the first page, so lets keep it there, with educated posts.

Ryan, good luck with your research and I hope this never happens again.

[Removed_2815]

This topic came up at a Turtle Advisory Group meeting yesterday and there has still been no word as to who might be responsible for this.
Again, I thank you all in advance for keeping a watch out for baby Spiny Softshell Turtles being offered for sale and I urge you to contact any of Scott's numbers listed above.
Best regards,
Ryan

[CamHanna]

Would spiny softshells really be worth poaching? Petstores could get in as many Florida and other ssps of spiny as they want but no one really wants to buy them. It's a small market and there would certainly be no point in raiding multiple nests when one would likely supply all of Ontario.

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by CamHanna
Would spiny softshells really be worth poaching?
I wouldn't think so, but I am not in the underground illegal turtle trade - so I can't speculate on the "worth". There's really no need to question the motives right now, the fact is that they were taken - with evidence to suggest it was an intentional and surgically executed theft. Scott and Jeff have alluded to this turtle as being a poor animal for captivity (here (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53575)). The eggs could have been taken for the pet trade, or for unfounded medicinal purposes (Snapper eggs are used as aphrodisiacs by many ignorant people and their eggs are stolen in large numbers), or so that the babies could be grown up for meat markets.
No matter what the motive is, the best anyone can do right now is to be aware that these eggs were stolen and to report any possible tips of their whereabouts to the proper authorities.
Thanks all,
Ryan

[Removed_2815]

But you're absolutely correct Cam, it doesn't make too much sense - it is a stupid crime. But no one ever accused this type of people as being intelligent...

[Ontario_herper]

Is there not a strong possibility of the theft being carried out by a few drunken teenagers or someone (a non-hobbyist) who worked in the area that knew the exact location of the nests?

I see nothing wrong with (and would myself) asking assistance from the private sector in catching the vandals. It just seems like alot of blame is being thrown towards private keepers when there is a strong possibility that it was just some random idiot.

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by Ontario_herper
It just seems like alot of blame is being thrown towards private keepers when there is a strong possibility that it was just some random idiot.
Hi Dave,
There's more to it than that, I don't know if Scott has released the details but deception was involved and all of the metaphorical "tracks" were covered - all strongly suggesting that this was not the act of some random idiot (it appears to have been methodically planned and executed). As for the blame being put on private keepers, that is the obvious conclusion that people have come to on this forum but we have an open mind as to why these eggs may have been taken (see my above post).
Regards,
Ryan

[Removed_2815]

Moreover, the blame is solely on the person(s) who has taken the eggs. Since we do not know who took them then there can be no blame "thrown towards private keepers." Unless, of course, the culprit is a private keeper.
R

[Ontario_herper]

Thanks for clarifying Ryan. Hope everything is well with you.

[Removed_2815]

Thanks for keeping the thread alive Dave.
All the best,
Ryan

[Holy Mackerel]

Hey Ryan,

I'm just curious if it would interest you to mention some of the legal ramifications involved with protected species.

Seeing some posts on ssnakess with educational value is always great!



Steve

[VI Reptiles]

Who is the protector of these turtles? The goverment??? Maybe its an inside job by one of the conservation officers?? Sounds a bit wierd to me.

[Holy Mackerel]

VI,


I'm not sure I'm following your thought.

You're thinking that a conservation officer would potentially poach a protected spp. nests?

[Cake]

Its a big conspiricy by the MNR. They serve turtle soup at all thier meetings and their supply of snapper eggs is low. (insert sarcasm here).

Seriously though, the asain food market does have a demand for turltle meat and eggs, for soups and medicinal purposes. To me this seems a more logical explanation due to the fact they are such a poor species to keep in captivity.

The timing is of interest though, just before they would have hatched. That sounds to me like someone with some knowledge of the life cycle of this particular species. If that is the case then you can rule out "drunken teenagers".

[Removed_2815]

VI,
The nests were protected in the sense that they had physical nest protectors put around the nest (in an attempt to prevent animal predation and keep the nests secure for later work on flesh fly depredation and to look at hatching success, etc). The nests were left where they were laid and, thus, were not guarded (by CO's or anyone else). I am not sure what the status of the land is (this is Scott's study area) but it is inconsequential as signage does little to deter the masses anyway (people will go into an area whether it's protected land or not).

Steve,
I am not exactly sure what the legal ramifications would be as I am not aware of any precedence in Ontario (for collecting protected turtle eggs). However, we were fortunate enough to have a conviction laid on a man for killing an Eastern Hog-nosed Snake not too long ago. So the courts are stepping up and there is no longer any distinction between a protected species' eggs or the protected species itself. Hence this individual would be guilty of disturbing (or killing) x number of protected species and would ideally be culpable for each egg. Bottom line, this is a very large threat to the population so the legal ramifications should be just as large.
Ryan