Who would pay this?

[ladyluck]

ID #FBB01 CB 2003 female Bumble Bee Spider.

Weight: 90 grams

$45,000.00


http://www.newenglandreptile.com/spider_available.html

I mean, you could get a damn fine automobile, a huge down payment on a house, a kickin motorcycle.......

Let me know what you think.

[Samba]

I those people are crazy and likely to go out of business if their prices don't drop!! I realize these snakes have special patterns and colors but HOLY SH*T they're expensive. I seriously couldn't imagine buying PET for that much, (or even a breeder now that I think of it)... crap their cheapest snake is still more than what I make is a YEAR!!! LOL =)

[proud2bcanadian]

I agree. I don't know why anyone would pay such a price! I know that I never would!

[ladyluck]

I dont even find the snake attractive.
I like pastels and albinos, and some of the morphs are beautiful, but to buy a snake for the genetics alone? It looks like the snake that got beat up in school.

[capsicum]

Aww, she's cute :D But no way I would pay that much for a snake, lol!

TK

[Vengeance]

Well somebody is paying for them because breeders like N.E.R.D and Ralph Davis are still in buisness. You can't look at it as $45,000 for a pet, you have to look as it as a $45,000 investment. You buy the snake, breed them yourself, total value my go down a bit, but you will most likely make up the $45,000 in 3 - 5 years. Also most people that are buying $45,000 snakes are breeders who are working with other high end breeds so they are most likely already making money selling snakes, so they are taking the money they make off their snakes and putting it back into the community. Also these guys are all in the US and the market down there is much larger then here in Canada.

[Cruciform]

In a capitalist society price is driven by demand vs. availability.

They're still rare enough that the people with the money to compete for ownership of the animals can afford those high prices. Over time the prices will drop as they are bred out and the buys recoup their original investment through resale, but it's not really any different than any other type of animal breeder dealing with rares.

Ralph had platinums on his site for 35 to 75k and they were taken off the available list after only a short time, so one can assume they were sold.

As an investment it's not a bad place to put your money, vs. stocks or such, as you're in control of the husbandry and don't have to worry about some Enron accountant screwing the books on you :)

Without buying them for breeding purposes though, it's just peeing into the wind :)

[Jeff_Favelle]

How much would a car give you in return in 3 years? Actually, it would depreciate by about 30% so you'd be left with about $31,500. That sucks. How much would a house give you? Well $45K is about 1/4 of a house in today's market, so in 3 years, instead of being up $45K (if you didn't buy the house), you'd still be about $150K in debt to your mortgage.

So what if you bought a bumblebee for $45K and then spend another $1,000 on 10 normal females. Say in 3 years, you get 8 out of the 10 normals to breed, laying an average of 6 eggs. Now, that's 48 eggs, and you should get close to a ratio of 1/4 normals, 1/4 Pastels, 1/4 Spiders, and 1/4 Bumblebees. So that's 12 animals of each. How does that break down money-wise?

12 normals = about $1,000
12 Pastels = about $12,000 in 3 years time
12 Spiders = hard to say, but let's say $5K each so $60,000

So not including the bumblebees, you're return on a $45K investment is $73,000!! A return of 62%!!! Over 3 years, that's 20% per year! That is MORE than a credit card charges! How much does your money earn in the bank? 0.5%. Yeah, I'm sorry, but at a half of a percent, you better find a better investment if you want to actually retire before age 80. Even GIC's and bonds only give 4.5% return. ING Direct only gives 2.5%. That's peanuts.

Now, factor in the bumblebees, of which you have 12 of. Say in 3 years the price drops to $20K (not likely). 12 x $20K is $240,000!!! What kind of a house can a down payment of $240,000 get you? Well, I'll let your imagination decide.

In the world of BP's, there's people looking in, complaining about the prices, working like Johnny Punchclock at whatever they do. Then there's people who are actually IN the industry, making piles of money for working with and producing tiny little stout pythons that hail from Africa. One group is complaining and can't understand it. The other group is laughing all the way to the bank. LOL! Wonder who's got the better deal?

Again, these snakes are for INVESTMENT purposes only. If you are keeping snakes for the joy of keeping snakes, which is awesome, then don't stress over the high-dollar animals. What's the point?

[mykee]

Jeff, these diatribes of logic and reason that you spout off every once in a while never cease to amaze me. There's no debating that these animals will make you money if you quit complaining and put yourself out there. Sour grapes get you nowhere.

[Corey Woods]

Most of the people who complain about the price of the Ball python morphs can't afford them. The people who aren't afraid to invest the money make the money.

Corey
PS......I've spent close to that on one animal......actually.....on multiple animals.

[capsicum]

I completely understand that a ball like that (or any other high-end morph of any reptile for that matter), is a major investment that will, hopefully, make you money in the long run.

My point is that for the average person, that is a lot of money that may be better spent on other things (hell if I had $45,000 I wouldn't be buying a snake, lol - I'd probably get tons of others :D ). Yes, we may complain about the prices, but the fact is we will sit back and enjoy looking at what others produce.

Personally I am looking in to buying some higher-end hets, but I won't dilude myself to think that they will bring me major money. I say this only because - yes, I can invest in a great pair of morphs that could possibly produce for me in a few years. But what if they don't? Then all you have are very expensive snakes to look at. I hope they will produce for me, but there is always a chance that they won't. Of course if they don't, I will just have some nice snakes (I hope, lol).

For those that are dedicated to breeding these awesome snakes, I look at you with awe. You have the guts to spend that income to purchase the snakes, and obviously the they are bringing money back to you.

For the general public though, all we can do is admire your work. So, my hat is off to those who produce these animals!

TK

[spidergecko]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
How much would a house give you? Well $45K is about 1/4 of a house in today's market, so in 3 years, instead of being up $45K (if you didn't buy the house), you'd still be about $150K in debt to your mortgage.

Well I wouldn't go that far. In 3 or so years you could still sell the house, pass along the mortgage, and still have made money (depending on the terms and ... blah blah). And given how long it takes for the snakes to produce, the house would probably bring you a better investment after 3 years :D

[MouseKilla]

Well since Jeff and Cruciform have already given the lessons in economics and investment I'll just add that if you think prices on ball python morphs are nuts you should have a look at the horse market! lol! You can pay more than $45 G to have a guy bring his horse over to screw yours. lol! It's truly a matter of perspective.

I think the other thing to keep in mind is that no one, or nearly no one, starts out with such big ticket morphs, they progress through the lower end stuff and work their way up. If you take the money you make selling off a bunch of normals and roll it into the purchase of a single morph you can continue like that and take it as far as your skill, ambition, luck and the market will allow.

I'd be interested in hearing how the guys that will drop that kind of money on an animal started out. That would be the interesting part for me, I don't find it hard to understand investing that kind of money but it would be cool to see how it got to that point.

[spidergecko]

Frankly, I think you could end up with a $50,000 snake using funds from past sales whereby the total out of pocket expense would be nothing more than the cost of a normal corn snake. I think you have to work up to it, though.

[MouseKilla]

Yeah, it would take a long time with just one corn snake though. lol!

[mykee]

Spidergecko, Real Estate?? Lets say you put $50,000 down on a 'moderately-sized', $250,000 home (20%) and I buy a Lesser Platty.

Using your 3 year theory, you sell the house that you paid $250,000 for three years earlier for $300,000 (good luck making 20% back in 36 months) for arguements sake, I'm playing with the numbers in your favour. You get the $50,000 you put down back (you make nothing), you also get the amount you paid down you mortgage (maybe $10,000, the other $15,000 goes to the bank as interest) and the profit from the purchase price to the selling price: $50,000. You've made yourself $60,000. in three years. Good job.

Now with that same $50,000 I bought a Platty, chances are that in three years I've bred my male Platty twice (by the way, I bought a male, and I named him "Sugardaddy Platty") and I bred him to a "very conservative" 10 females the first year, and 8 took. The following year I bred him to 15 females and only 10 took. I average 5 eggs per lady (see how I'm on your side here). that's 90 eggs. Again, I'll give you the advantage and say 10 die for whatever reason, which leaves me with 80 eggs, and 35/80 were platties (odds in your favour). Let's also say that platties are now $35,000 instead of $50,000. I just made $1,225,000!! less the original $50,000, and I've got $1,175,000 with one single platty male while you have a paltry $60,000 in your pocket and nowhere to live. (Don't worry, I'll rent you one of the apts. over my 6 car garage.)

[morph]

Mykee too funny...........:D


Scott

[Tim_Cranwill]

Mykee, can you rent space to me too? I have "pets" but they don't make much noise.

:D ;)

[mykee]

Tim: LOL. In terms of renting, I only have the 1,700 sq. ft. dog house, equipped with c/a, c/v, 41" plasma, hi-speed internet and two bedrooms on the second floor; one for you, with an ensuite and one for your 'pets', and of course you'll get your own entrance. The basement and main floor is for the dogs, they like their privacy so are off limits to you, got it!!

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

EVERYONE:

Lots of good points have been mentioned here. These animals are simply just investments for the production and propagation of making money. Like an investment you must put something into it to gain from it but also understand all its risks as well.

I see people mentioning cars, houses and things; these are all investments that for the most part do depreciate. But also can gain more than the initial investment. Houses in my province have all gone up if you can sell you will gain from it now. Cars.....if they aren’t something rare and very unique you lost your money. But like all materialistic things they only have worth if people want them, the more people the better chance of gain.

As for snakes this is pretty much the same thing, those Ball Pythons are gorgeous and a few people will get into them and for a short period the value will be there. Once the prices come down due to over population in the community and not as many buyers able to pay it, then the uniqueness will be gone as well and very common in the community. Breeders who get into the high end morphs do it for what ever reason but it comes down to being the first to cash in on the rarities, its like knowing the winning horse at the track or a hot tip in the market. Of course there is the pleasure of creating something new or improving on what is out there now, but expect the price to follow as well.

I find the ones that say the price is outrageous or insane are the ones who can’t buy them anyways for whatever reason. And then they are the ones when they get something breeding don’t want to drop there prices as well.

Jeff went into the potential of this and other animal projects and to show the figures and possibilities. But like when I write up a contract with friends who invest in my projects a main paragraph goes into the 1 thing all investments face. Loss, not loss in depreciation but more in a very common situation to all living things and that is death due to genetics, health, care, age and so on. When Jeff stated the gains you also have to expect the losses and total loss as well. So some people who would not jump into a $45,000 animal see it this way as well. Plus you have to see the priorities in life. Buy a $45,000 animal and live with parents or renting or put money in a home. I myself am not wealthy enough to put all my eggs in 1 basket, and the ones that do either have another basket or are blinded by future returns. I know a few on either side of that, some got lucky others paid dearly.

Now the people who are asking these prices do it because of many factors. Putting aside if you feel these animals are even worth it. It was stated already it all about supply and demand. Put a good reputation behind the animals and a long history of that reputation and the price is justified. As long as there are people willing to pay that price then it will stay at that price for awhile. You have to think if you create something rare and there is a drive from people wanting more you would also come up with a crazy price tag.

Price itself is nothing in some terms, its flexible I mean if you have $40,000 in cash and wanted that Ball Python I think it will be yours on a $5,000 discount or trades happen or favors are done. I think everyone is flexible as the seller or buyer and add time to it and things happen.

$45000 in US dollars, man I know so many boa projects I would be in and gain more than Jeff’ s worksheet...lol.

:)

Cya...

Tony

[spidergecko]

Originally posted by mykee
I just made $1,225,000!! less the original $50,000, and I've got $1,175,000 with one single platty male while you have a paltry $60,000 in your pocket and nowhere to live.

I'm definitely in the wrong business...

[Jeff_Favelle]

Well I wouldn't go that far. In 3 or so years you could still sell the house, pass along the mortgage, and still have made money (depending on the terms and ... blah blah). And given how long it takes for the snakes to produce, the house would probably bring you a better investment after 3 years

Not even close. There's real estate agent fees, SERIOUS taxes, paperwork fees, lawyer fees, etc etc. Flipping a house and making any sort of money beyond 15% per dwelling is next to impossible. You could make more money with a single pair of Pastel Ball Pythons than you could flipping a $300,000 house, with 1/10 the risk.


Frankly, I think you could end up with a $50,000 snake using funds from past sales whereby the total out of pocket expense would be nothing more than the cost of a normal corn snake. I think you have to work up to it, though.

You couldn't be more right brother. Snake money for many is play money. You have a pair of corns, they breed and you get 20 eggs @ $25 a piece and all of a sudden you have $500. Get a pair of Rainbow Boas, breed them, and they have 20 babies @ $200 each and all of a sudden you have $4 GRAND to play with. This is FREE/FUNNY/DISPOSABLE income, simply because as a hobbyist, you'd have the animals anyways. So what do you do with the $4K? Buy a pair of Pastels? Maybe a pair of Womas? How about a trio of het Pieds? Maybe a quartet of CB Green Tree Pythons? So down the road, when it comes time to breed those, all of a sudden, you have $35,000 in snake income to waste on more animals. How cool is that? And this is where some people are at. They've been breeding and producing snakes for 10 years, and now they need something to invest in. Not everyone is interested in $10 corns or $5 Leopard Geckos. And expensive animals fills that market. The investor's market. Its not for everyone. But heck, is placing a high dollar amount on a cool-looking snake such a bad thing? Does it affect anyone negatively? At all? I don't think so.

[Corey Woods]

Mykee,

Hopefully my Lesser Platty male breeders 10 females his first year.......but I'm thinking he'll only breed 6..........hopefully he's a breeding machine. No lessers will be sold in Canada in the first year though.........

Corey

[Vengeance]

Everything everyone is saying is exactly the same train of thought I'm going into. Tomorrow I'll be picking up a trio of 100% Het Albino ball pythons. We'll see how that goes, it's my first investment into this community, but my plan is in about 4 years to see a return on that investment. I'm sure the price on Albinos in the next 4 years will drop but I still think it's a good place to start because at least if the project fails I'm not out an absorbent amount of money. From there I hope to move to pie-balds, and so on and so on. Now I'm not stupid enough to think I'm going to be able to make a living out of this, well at least not for another 10 - 15 years, assuming I keep doing this that long. But as a side project, something to do after work, it's an awesome prospect as a side business.

[mykee]

Corey, for that matter, I don't think Platties will ever be at the price point that they'll be purchased in Canada. Corey, here's my plan though, beeen thinking about it since I'd seen your Platty in person. You can have all my females and breed that little sucker until his hemi's throb, get as many Platties out there as you can so that the market becomes so super saturated that the price drops by 25% each successive year. On year....nine, I'll take a trio @ $3753 each. Deal? OR you can have Tania's and my first born son, AND/OR my mother-in-law??

[hhw]

When you do the number, ball pythons morphs are well worth the money you pay for them, as people have already explained. Their estimates have already been quite conservative.

One terrific thing about ball pythons is that it's mostly capital intensive with very low operating costs. If you were in the manufacturing business per say, and your product wasn't selling well. Not only would the money you invested in the plant, machinery, equipment, patents, etc... lost most of their value... you'll be continually hemorrhaging money out your *** until you are forced to sell for well below you acquisition price. With a high end morph ball python, even if you're not having any luck with breeding, it doesn't cost you any more to raise and keep than a normal ball python, so your operating expenses are minimal.

Of course, there's the chance that it will never breed for you... but if you're like any of the other breeders that buy them, you probably have several projects going on at a time. Since any given project can easily give you a rate of return of ten times just in ONE YEAR OF PRODUCTION. So, as long as you have success with one of those projects, you are in the clear. Now, there's a good chance that some of those other 9 projects will work out for you as well, which, writing off acquisition costs all on one project, the other 9 will be pure profit. Not to mention, each project will continue producing offspring for years to come. It's quite conceivable that a breeding project will have a rate of return of 100x over its useful life. I don't know what other types of businesses you've looked at, but that's just FREAKING INSANE!!!

I'm broke, just out of school, and jobless but I've sunk all my money into a pastel project, and I don't regret it one bit. I've just gotten back into herps after graduating, and there's a ton of different herps I want. I could've spent the money I had on several different herps, but I thought to myself... the quickest way I'll be able to afford everything I want is to just put all my money into some pastels now, and then easily pay for everything else once I've produced a few clutches. In the short term, it means less herps, but in the long run, it means a LOT more herps MUCH sooner. I've taken my fair share of commerce courses, and after having thoroughly researched the high end ball python market, I'm absolutely amazed that such a business opportunity can even exist. In a few years, after I've produced a few clutches of pastels, you can guarantee I'll be using the money I make from selling them to buy a higher end morph. Not to mention, I'll have as many of every other herp I'm interested in as I'll feel like.

[ladyluck]

My whole point in starting this forum was pretty much:

Does the design of the snake (it's attractiveness) make it worth more, or does the breeder dictate what is worth more?

I look at that snake in particular, and it may be 'cute' but there are 100 other BP morphs that are Waaaaaaay more attractive, and cheaper at that.

And someone said that those who complain about the price can't afford it, it's not like I have snake envy or anything so quit swingin that one around cause it's old. Congradulations on the millions of dollars you've spent on your snakes. All the power to you! That's your business. But don't assume that WE as a whole cant afford it, cause you sound like a pompous A$$.

Some of us do work chump desk jobs, but they are for more than a few nickels. I laugh my way all the way to the bank every week too!

Snakes are pets and a hobby for me, and for lots of others too.

You know one thing that I learn from this site, is which breeders I would buy from in the future. Some of you are so helpfull and answer so many questions. Others do nothing but put in their boring 2 cents that does nobody any good.

[Tim_Cranwill]

That snake’s price is based on a few things and looks don't play much of a factor.

- That snake is a double homo, and that's not a play-ground insult. It not only carries two genes but it carries two VALUABLE genes. One is co-dominant and the other is dominant.

- That snake is rare. It won't be AS rare OR valuable in the years to come because dozens of breeders will be making them but it will still be rare and valuable.

- That snake is in demand. Buying that snake is more or less like buying your own money printing machine (not that it is ALL about money). You can make 4 types of ball pythons with that one snake (2 of which are worth some big bucks) and that is if you only breed it to a normal.

Like everyone has said, that snake is not going to be a "pet". It will be a breeder/investment... call it what you will. People invest in some crazy stuff. Why not snakes? People have paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for ugly paintings. But the thing with that is, those painting aren't going to paint you MORE paintings!!! lol :D

If breeding snakes is your hobby, why not invest in a couple "high-end" snakes? It will at least cover the cost of your hobby. :)

[daver676]

I also hope to one day start actually investing in the snake market by purchasing a few rarities of my own. It really is an investment, all be it if there are people out there who will buy what your selling....

Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
That snake is a double homo

Sorry, but this made me laugh. LOL!! :D

[MouseKilla]

Understanding the price of anything isn't hard, it always costs exactly as much as the market will pay. No one has the power to arbitrarily set a price and have it stick.

If a breeder sets his price so high that no one will pay it he won't sell anything. It's no good hanging a crazy high price on something if no one buys it and it's not worth anything at all until someone does.

If he sets it too low the people he sells to will flip his product and make a bunch of money. Very quickly the price will match the true market value of that animal whether it's $25 or $5 million. Price isn't just a made up number, it represents the value of the product on the actual market.

[hhw]

Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
- That snake is a double homo, and that's not a play-ground insult. It not only carries two genes but it carries two VALUABLE genes. One is co-dominant and the other is dominant.


I'm pretty sure it's just a double het, as it's a bumble bee as opposed to a killer bee, and the homozygous form of spiders has yet to be proven.

[Derrick]

hhw nerd advertises spider as dominant. So what you are getting is a dominant x co-dominant or double co-dominant snake breeding this snake to a normal would give you spiders and spider pastels no normals. even if spider is only a co-dominant trait(as i've seen said on sites besides nerd) you would still get normals/spiders/pastels/ and spiderpastels from breeding this snake to a normal.

IF it was just a double het neither trait would be displayed

[hhw]

A dominant gene is simply one where hets and homos are the same phenotype. There is no such thing as a gene where both alleles from a single parent are passed on to the offspring, thus a het could never be guaranteed to pass on the morph gene. Offspring of a het dominant morph x normal pairing still result in half normals and half morphs. A bumblebee x normal pairing would give you 1/4 normals, 1/4 pastels, 1/4 spiders, and 1/4 bumblebees.

This would be a lot different than a double homo spider pastel, which would be a killer bee where both alleles for the spider gene were spider. In this case, a pairing with a normal would be all bumblebees. But like I said, since as of yet there is no proven super form of the spider, you couldn't prove a snake to be homozygous spider unless you've bred it and all the offspring are spiders, which would be impossible for a 90g female.

[Jeff_Favelle]

hhw is right. Bumblebees are double hets. They are het for spider and they are het for super pastel. Although a Bumblebee can be a homozygous spider.

And like mousekilla said, the price reflects the market. If there was no market for the Bumblebee at that price, then it wouldn't stay at that price. There is a market, so there it stays. I know a TON of people who think the Bumblebees are the best-looking morph out there. Its one of my top 3 for sure.

[Derrick]

Ok cool i get what your saying and i'm no genetics whiz but Wouldnt double co-dominant or dominant/co-dominant more corectly describe this animal. Where Co-dominant describes an animal that is heterozygous for a dominant gene. When someone say a snake double heterozygous it is comonly considered that they are talking recessive traits.

Any way I do understand what you originally meant. I'm probably just spliting hairs.

Edit: I think I've got it figured. Domiant, co-dominant and recessive describe the gene and homo and het describe the state(whether 1 or 2 alleles present), Right? lol its been years since I've done any of this crap. and its also 4am here :D

[Tim_Cranwill]

They are still double homos; homozygous for pastel and homozygous for spider. I do see how they might be thought of as only het for super pastel though but I don't agree that they AREN'T homo for pastel.

And how can they even be double hets if there is no super spider? There is NO het spider.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Tim, a homo Pastel is a SUPER PASTEL. Bumblebees are NOT Super Pastels. Those would be Killer Bees.

And there is het spider. But being just dominant, its indistinguishable from a homo spider. Homozygous means that both alleles are the SAME. Forget the phenotype man. Homo and hetero is NOT describing the phenotype.

[Tim_Cranwill]

I understand all that. It's just symantics, in my mind. The snake carries two visible mutations, that's why I would call it a double homo... even if that goes against the actual scientific terms (not that snake people follow those anyway).

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yes, it carries two visible dominant "mutations". But those are completely different alleles, so they can't be termed homozygous. You try and sell a Bumblebee as a double homo animal, and everyone will think that be breeding it to a normal will produce 100% Bumblebees, every time. Because that's what a double homo animal would do.

[Tim_Cranwill]

So a snow bred to a normal would give you _______????? ;)

[Jeff_Favelle]

100% double hets, every time. Just like Bumblebees are DOUBLE VISIBLE HETS. Simple. So a Killer-bee - homo spider x normal would give you Bumblebees when bred bred to a normal, every time.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
100% double hets, every time.

Yes, but that's not what you said earlier:

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
You try and sell a Bumblebee as a double homo animal, and everyone will think that be breeding it to a normal will produce 100% Bumblebees, every time. Because that's what a double homo animal would do.

I also thinki you are wrong with your last breeding outcome:

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
So a Killer-bee - homo spider x normal would give you Bumblebees when bred bred to a normal, every time.

A killer bee is a Super Pastel + Spider. If you bred that to a normal you would get 100% Pastels and 50% Spiders. So 50% Bumblebees and 50% Pastels.


Sorry, Jeff. I'm not trying to be a dink. I'm just in a pissy mood. :mad: 3 kids and no sleep does that to me! :p I know you are right about the double homo thing, but in "snake genetics", the way breeders use the terms at least, I think I am also right... to a degree.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I SAID "Killer-bee homo spider! That means its homo spider plus super pastel. THAT means that it can ONLY give a spider allele and a pastel allele as its contribution to the chromosome. THAT means that EVERY baby will be a Bumblebee. Killer-bee/homo spider x normal will ALWAYS give you Bumblebees. 100% of the time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tim_Cranwill]

Is there such a thing as a "homo spider" though?

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yeah. NERD sells possible homo-spiders. Kwok was hoping he had one when he bought his. There's 2 alleles for every gene, so of course there can be homo spiders. They are just indistinguishable from regular spiders because they are dominant. Just like people with brown eyes can be het brown eyes or homozygous brown eyes. But they look the SAME.

Elementary stuff my dear Crannie. Elementary. ;)

[Tim_Cranwill]

I should have know better than to even try to debate a science subject with you! :p

Want to get into a music debate?!?!? ;) :D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yeah, I like Cindi Lauper and the Thompson Twins.


:D

[Tim_Cranwill]

Well then, you lose already!!! In more way than one! :D :p

[Jeff_Favelle]

LOL!

[Invictus]

Well, I thought I knew a thing or two about genetics. Now you're telling me het for dominant, and recessive for this, and no such thing as dominant and hets being the same as homo...... I have a LOT of reading to do.

[Dr. Antfarm]

If you guys think that 45k USD is alot, Mike Willbanks and Bob Clark are charging $100 000/pair het leucistic balls. I don't think NERD is in any danger of going out of buisness. They're one of the largest python breeders in the world, and are responsible for alot of the Ball morphs on the market today. I don't think they have alot of trouble selling their stuff.

[Will]

I think it's basically the same stuff as simple reccessive genes(such as albinism) only in reverse.

I think if I understand it, a dominant trait shows in a het animal('spider'), as opposed to a recessive trait being hidden in the het form('normal' in this case...?). So an animal that was het-spider and het-normal would show the spider phenotype, no...? And an animal that was homo-spider, would look just the same, only it would have that 'extra' spider allele and would only throw spider babies(in the het form).

Basically the same thing as albinos, only in this case the 'normal' gene is recessive and the 'spider' is dominant...?

I think that's how it works, but could be totally off... :confused:

[Dr. Antfarm]

This series of articles should clear everything up for everyone.

http://www.newenglandreptile.com/genetics_intro.html

[Will]

Oh and back on the original topic, I gaurantee that whoever plunks down the 45g isn't working a 9-5 job, plunking twoonies into a piggy bank saving up for that girl.

The money that pays for that snake has been made, and re-made many times over in other breeding projects in the past, and the money that goes into that snake will be made and re-made and spent on other projects in the future. For sure.

The reason I decided to get into snakes in the first place(and I think alot of breeders start out like this) was first and foremost a fascination with the animal, but I quickly realized that this hobby has the potential to pay for itself.

At this point in time, for me it is like many other people's non-snake hobbies - I hemmorage money left, right, and center to do what I do. I scrimp and save for new breeding stock and put off buying other things for myself, just to have some extra scratch to spend on my hobby. And like other people's hobbies, I would likely be doing it, even if the money constantly flowed out the door.

Hopefully in the next couple of years, for me, the hobby will start to pay for itself though. I can continue doing what I like to do in my spare time, but it won't cost me a thing. My 9-5 will pay for the bills and for Will - and the snakes will pay for the snakes. How many hobbies out there have that potential...? Not many that I can think of.

That 45,000 is exactly the same thing, only on a much larger scale - and those breeders have better jobs than I do...

[hhw]

I find NERD's genetics guide a bit misleading on some issues. Particularly, their explanation of dominant genes using super pastels, as the pastel gene is not dominant.

[Derrick]

Originally posted by hhw
I find NERD's genetics guide a bit misleading on some issues. Particularly, their explanation of dominant genes using super pastels, as the pastel gene is not dominant.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that. It cpnfused me at first

[RandyRemington]

I took a quick look at the NERD genetics page and looks like they put in a lot of work and it's a pretty nice page. My minor critique would be that they seem to be making a mistake I see a lot in the snake hobby, they are sometimes using the morph type terms "dominant" and "co-dominant" where they should be using the genotype terms "homozygous" and "recessive".

The genotype refers to the types of the two genes for a specific trait. Except for the gender chromosome (and sometimes even then I think) there are two copies of every gene. It can get a little complicated if you start talking about multiple mutant alleles of the same gene but lets leave that possibility out of the discussion for now.

The possible genotypes are homozygous normal (two normal copies of whatever gene we are talking about), heterozygous mutant (one mutant copy and one corresponding normal copy), and homozygous mutant. These possible genotypes apply to all mutations we have seen so far (i.e. no sex linked yet). Here are some simple rules for breeding outcomes based on genotype:

1. Homozygous normal X homozygous normal = 100% homozygous normal

2. Heterozygous mutant X homozygous normal = 50% chance heterozygous mutant, 50% homozygous normal

3. Heterozygous mutant X heterozygous mutant = 25% chance homozygous mutant, 50% chance heterozygous mutant, 25% chance homozygous normal.

4. Homozygous mutant X homozygous normal = 100% heterozygous mutant.

5. Homozygous mutant X heterozygous mutant = 50% chance homozygous mutant, 50% chance heterozygous mutant.

6. Homozygous mutant X homozygous mutant = 100% homozygous mutant.

These rules apply to all mutations, regardless of the mutation type (recessive, co-dominant/incomplete dominant, completely dominant). The mutation type just helps you correlate the genotype with the appearance (phenotype).

With the recessive mutation type, the heterozygous genotype has the normal phenotype and only the homozygous mutant genotype has the mutant phenotype.

With the co-dominant mutation type, or some prefer the term incomplete dominant mutation type, the heterozygous genotype has a mutant phenotype but the homozygous genotype has a different mutant phenotype.

With the completely dominant mutation type the heterozygous genotype and the homozygous genotype both have the same mutant phenotype.

The key is to remember what the tree ways of categorizing a mutation mean and keep them separate. The genotype (heterozygous, homozygous) describes the genes and the same rules apply to the inheritance of the genotype for all non sex linked mutations. The phenotype describes the appearance of an individual animal relative to a mutation (albino, pastel, super pastel). The mutation type (recessive, co-dominant/incomplete dominant, completely dominant) describes the interaction between the genotype and the phenotype for a mutation. The mutation type doesn't change depending on if you are talking about a heterozygous or homozygous animal for the same mutation (i.e. the super pastel phenotype is homozygous genotype, NOT the dominant form since the mutation is still the same type (co-dominant/incomplete dominant) as when you where looking at the heterozygous genotype pastel phenotype animal.

Also, regarding "There's 2 alleles for every gene, so of course there can be homo spiders." Does anyone have an estimate of how many potential homozygous spiders (i.e. from spider X spider breedings) have been produced and for how many years? I'm wondering how many of these are old enough that they should have been breed by now. Are there any that have breed and produced only spiders so far? I'll agree that in theory there should be a homozygous spider. Maybe not enough of potential homozygous spiders have been grown up and bred to prove any of the 1/3 that should be homozygous. However, if there where lots of potential homozygous spiders produced in the last 2 – 4 years and lots of those have been bred but none have yet produced only spiders then I would start to look at a theory to explain this (like maybe the homozygous embryos die soon after conception). I have almost no data on what has been produced and when but until a homozygous animal is produced any morph is potentially homozygous lethal.

[hhw]

Excellent explanation Randy!!! I'm glad you brought up the issue of codominance vs incomplete dominance.

[TexasAggie04]

Purchasing a bumblebee spider for breeding should also be looked at like any investment: potentially risky.

Scenario: Breeding projects lead you to increasingly valuable morphs, eventually netting you the 45k needed to purchase this fine animal. It croaks for some strange reason before you can breed it. You are very sad.

I would just be very hesitant to count my baskets before they hatch, or put all my eggs in one chicken.

[nita]

Originally posted by Corey Woods
Most of the people who complain about the price of the Ball python morphs can't afford them. The people who aren't afraid to invest the money make the money.

Corey
PS......I've spent close to that on one animal......actually.....on multiple animals.

LOL, at the Red Deer show a friend commented that when you talk about your animals you sound like money is no object. After pointing out the animals you had on display and the cost of those animals I mentioned that I didnt' think it was when it came to your animals. I'm saving this thread so I can show it to my husband when he complains that I want to spend $1500 on a pastel.

[nita]

I love that this hobby can pay for itself. I currently have 5 males and 9 females, I know I dont' need that many males but I only actually bought 2 of them the rest were rescues that just needed a good home, that was my start after all in this hobby. As of this year I will have one normal female who is going to be breedable and hopefully I will have eggs next spring/summer. If my brother manages to buy himself a pastel before she is ready to breed we will try to breed her to his pastel otherwise I have 5 lovely males to choose from. Next year hopefully all my females will be breedable and I'll be purchasing a male pastel anyway next year. I have to agree with Jeff, snake money at this point is mad money and all my mad money gets spent on my snakes, ok and my kids! LOL.

[Vengeance]

My next major snake purchase will be either a pastel male and female, or Het Pieds. The pastel seems like a better idea for the long run because once my Het albinos start breeding im going to have to prove out all the non-albino babies, for the first few years, so once I can prove them out, I'm either going to have more hets or normals at breedable size, thats when the pastel would come best into play because I could breed the pastel to the normal and make pastel babies.