Looking to breed something special

[ladyluck]

Okay, here is the deal. I have 1.1 normal BP's right now. I have some extra cash and am entertaining the idea of picking up a morph of sorts to breed.
I am window shopping at present to see what is available and would like to see what I can produce.
The question I have is that I dont quite understand the whole 'HET' thing. If I get a pair of albino hets, or a pair or pastel hets, what would the offspring be? Am I right to say 1/4 possible albino or pastel?
Senario two whould be to just get a pastel or albino outright and breed with a normal BP. What would the offspring be in that case?
Also, femals are more expensice than males, is this because the change of having morph offspring is higher?
If someone could answer these questions for me, it would be much appreciated.
I have bred normals in the past, and they seem to be a cinch to do. Is it harder with morphs?

Thanks for the info.

Also, anyone selling morphs right now for a reasonable price I would be interested in hearing about. I just moved into a new house and have a room that is going to be stricktly for herps.

Best regards,

K.

[Artemis]

Im no breeder hon so I cant speak from any personal experience, but here are a couple of links that might help answer your questions. Good luck!

Artemis

http://www.supersnakes.com/gwiz.htm

http://www.reptilemorphs.com/article1.htm

[Matt]

it depends on what type of gene you are dealing with....

albinism is recessive, which means at the locus on the gene which corresponds to albinism you need to have two recessive alleles to actually get an albino. A het is a snake that has one of those alleles but not both. So, if you breed two hets together, statistically you should get 1/4 normals, 1/4 albinos and 1/2 hets. The problem is that you cant tell the hets from the normals, so you will recieve 3/4 that are 66% chance of being het.

Pastel is totally different. This is a Co-Domiant gene, so you can breed a pastel to a normal and statistically you should get half normals and half pastels.

[hhw]

Firstly, I would recommend that you purchase a morph you are actually interested in. I think it's important to keep things fun as much as possible, which is much more likely to be the case when you truly enjoy the animals you are working with.

On the other, as much as I would truly enjoy a mojave, they are quite out of my price range at the moment. Fortunately, I am also a big fan of pastels, which is why I decided to pursue that project. The good thing about working with a codominant gene (or more accurately incomplete dominance for pastels), is that you can breed a pastel to a normal and get pastels in the very first generation of offspring. In the case of pastels, pastels are the het form of the super pastel. Therefore, there is no such thing as het for pastel, as pastel itself is the het form, it's just visible. This is the difference between incomplete dominant and recessive genes, as hets for recessive genes look the same as normal ball pythons.

If you decide you're more interested in albinos, keep in mind that both breeders will need to carry the gene for albinism if you want to produce albino offspring. When working with recessive genes, I think it's important to start off with 100% hets or the morphs themselves. There's just too much guesswork going on, and if neither is a definite het it will take numerous breedings to see if one or both are lacking the gene if you don't get albinos right away. Of course, if you don't mind just producing normals, possible hets are a less expensive way of getting into morphs. Although in my opinion, the time and resources you will expend will make it more than worthwhile to start with definite hets from the start for a less expensive morph like albinos.

[justinO]

the het thing has been explained a few times in the last couple weeks..... hopefully this will answer your questions:

genetics post (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52079)

Getting the actual morph will give you different outcomes: pastel bred to a normal will give you some morph babies. albino bred to a normal will give you all 100% hets.

I would think the reason that females are more expensive is quite obvious: they have the babies.

Morphs as far as i know are no different than normals to breed, so that shouldn't be a problem.

As far as price, check the classifieds here, I can pretty much assure you that this is the cheapest you will ever find morphs. Anything lower than the offers here I would consider sketchy!

good luck!

Jessy

[smeagel]

buy a pastel, it is the best investment you will ever make. there are soooo many different combinations you can make with a pastel and other morphs, as well as different paterns with in the pastel depending on the normals pattern u bredd with it.

[latazyo]

just to add that het means heterozygous

[ladyluck]

I was looking at some of the NERD line pastels. Those have some pretty cool patterns. Would it be worth the trip?

[justinO]

depends where you live! If it's too far, I've heard they are really good with shipping, so you wouldn't have to worry.

If you don't want to go "brand name" for a pastel, you can find someone local that might have a beautiful one for sale! And remember you can always request pictures first.

Jess

[ladyluck]

See here's what I dont get. People post ads for snakes and they dont post a picture. WASTE OF TIME!
Others not only have no picture, but dont state where they are located.
I think the two things that should be mandatory in the classified ads are those two things.
If you have something for sale DO IT RIGHT, or dont bother. I wont even contact people that dont have a picture or location in their post.

[justinO]

but at the same time, you don't have where you live in your profile, "in the clouds" doesn't help much! I *think* you are in the states, but it would be easier for people to help if they knew which country you are in & where.....
also, if you want to hear from people who are offering, they need the same info from you. Sellers in Canada will probably not want to contact a buyer in the states and vice versa, because of all the cites and paperwork involved.

But I agree, if someone is selling an animal but doesn't want anyone to know where they live, there is something fishy about that. And your info is posted with all boards, so a poster would know that their city is not listed. It's a HUGE pain in the a$s.

[ladyluck]

If I was selling something I would state both where I live and a picture of the animal. I have nothing to sell, so I don't need to post where I live.
I live in Ottawa Canada.

[mykee]

Ladyluck, if you live in Canada, NERD will not ship north of the border for any order under $2500 U.S. I believe. Scks, I know. BUT there are some great pastel breeders here in Canada where you can get GREAT stock from, (I would definitely suggest a Graziani pastel over a NERD Line.) You can contact Jeff Favelle, Mark Mandic, Corey Woods, David Kwok, (me, but I'm all sold out this year, sorry) there are others, I'm sorry if I forgot you... Good luck.

"Morphs as far as I know are no different than normals to breed.."
Jessy; for the most part, I would agree with you, but ask someone who owns pieds that same question....

[ladyluck]

Does anyone have any available in the Ottawa area?
If you read this post PM me.
I would prefer to see the snake in person before spending a bunch of cash on one.
Pictures can be modified to look brighter than they actually are.
I would have no problem driving to Totonto or Montreal to find a quality animal.
Thanks!

[mykee]

Most people trust a pic to purchase an animal. Good luck seeing one in person before you purchase. IF you buy from a reputable breeder, "picture modification" won't be an issue. I have bought animals from the states just by pics. If you plan on breeding, the animal that you buy will only be a very small part of the characteristics and looks of it's offspring. I've had terrible looking adults give me great looking offspring, and vice versa.

[ladyluck]

That's good to know.

Thanks.

[justinO]

mykee: that's why I thought I would say normally..... I have heard pieds are a biatch to breed..... i wonder why that is?

ladyluck, look on the classifieds here, put up a wanted ad! Any of the known breeders on here you can trust, and will ensure you are happy with your purchase!

[CamHanna]

What's harder about pieds? Do het pieds cause the same problems?

PS -
Originally posted by mykee
You can contact Jeff Favelle, Mark Mandic, Corey Woods, David Kwok, (me, but I'm all sold out this year, sorry)
Who are you mykee? You seem to breed some nice snakes from the pics I've seen but they never come with a last name. I haven't asked before because it seemed a little rude, but if you offer yourself as a breeder then it would help to know a name; hope I'm not to far out of line.

Cam Hanna

[Piers]

Most breeders won't let you just come over and see their animals, they have too much money and time invested to have just anyone over to possibly/mabe buy an animal.
As to the pieds, yeah from what Iv'e heard "a pain in the a$$"
Bad jenes I guess, thats why the price dosn't drop much each year.
Piers
P.S.
For Kam Hanna,
My last name is Leroux.
Guppyranch@uniserve.com

[mykee]

Justin; not sure but every case of "they didn't breed this year" has been from a pied owner it seems this year.
Hanna; I don't use a last name; like Madonna, Cher, Barney. Just kidding. When my website is up and running it'll be posted, not that it's a big deal. I'll still be going by Mykee, hopefully, it'll be the website that people will remember; www.strictlyballs.ca As for a last name, when it comes time for you to write my name on a check, you'll know my last name. LOL.
Piers; you don't think $5000 in a couple of years is a big drop?!

[ladyluck]

I think the preice of some of these animals in general is rediculous.
There is one being listed at the nerd site for $45 g's AMERICAN?

Do people actually pay that for a snake? Would a breeder invest that kind of money on what could be considered a gamble? I mean the animal could drop dead the day after the life guaratee expires?

Wassup with that?

[ladyluck]

price

[Jeff_Favelle]

Nothing is a guarantee. Life is a gamble. People spend $0.5 MILLION on real estate, only to find the housing market in that area crumble and their investment worth cut in HALF! That's a gamble. Some people invest a lifetime in a crappy job with low pay. That's a gamble. But let me tell you, the people investing $45K in expensive snakes KNOW what they're doing and are making INSANE returns on their investments. So insane in fact that its comparable to drugs or money laundering (purely a financial comparison). The only people that have a problem with the money thing are people on the outside looking in.

And Ball Pythons RARELY drop dead. The things are bullet-proof. That's why you buy from reputable breeders, so those things don't happen.

[Piers]

Mykee, as I've seen on price lists the last few years pieds have been untill now about 12000-15000 u.s. they seem to be droping now. other morphs are droping faster ie albinos and spiders.
I know some pieds were 20000 but I'm just talking about the average price.
Piers

[mykee]

Piers: you said in your original post that the price of pieds are not dropping much each year. Wrong, they clearly are. Forget all these price-hacks on the "Other" classified site, let's look at "Mr. Piebald" Pete Kahl. 3 years ago, his pieds were selling for $13000, now they're $7500!! That's almost half price in less than 3 years!! Spiders and albinos have NOT dropped 50% of their value in the last 3 years, sorry.
Ladyluck: That's why you've got your nose pressed up against the proverbial window looking in, while others are making an absolute killing. You gotta spend money to make money, and in this case, the money you'll make will be hand over fist.

[ladyluck]

"Ladyluck: That's why you've got your nose pressed up against the proverbial window looking in, while others are making an absolute killing. You gotta spend money to make money, and in this case, the money you'll make will be hand over fist."

Ya ummmm, I don't know if thats a jab or what, but what i'm doing now is research for what I decide to buy.

The only windows I press my nose against have red lights on the inside and are in Amsterdam.

I invest in a lot of things, and i'm 'looking' at investing in a snake to breed. I'm in no rush, cause i'm no fool. I know far less than the regulars on this site and am learning as I go.

"Knowledge is King!"

[Jeff_Favelle]

The market and numbers will literally blow your mind lady-luck. I'm not kidding. Sometimes, it almost seems too good to be true. If you get what YOU find attractive, and what YOU find fun to work with, then that will go a LONG way to how successful you can be in the hobby/industry. The sky's truly the limit, and its up to you to decide what you want out of it. But let me tell you, there's people getting a LOT out of it right now. And for not much work either. Its crazy. But crazy in a goooood way! ;)

[Ron]

mykee,

I believe both Albinos and Spiders have dropped ~50% in the last 3 years. I think Albinos were ~$3,500 US and Spiders were $25,000 3 years ago; you can get Albinos for $1,800 US and male Spiders for $8,000 - $12,000 US now.

[Corey Woods]

Spiders are now 5000 US OBO for females and as low as 6000 US OBO for males. I've heard of some pairs being sold at US shows for $9000 US........if you were to break that down it would be approximately $5k for the male and 4K for the female. It would really suck if you paid $17,500 US last year for a spider. As soon as you see OBO in an ad you know they are having a hard time selling their animals. If I had produced spiders this year (I'm not working with them at all) I'd keep all the females to breed into other projects and sell all the males.

Corey

[Bristen]

Originally posted by mykee
[...] Jessy; for the most part, I would agree with you, but ask someone who owns pieds that same question....

just curious Mykee.. why do you say that? Are het-pieds and pieds different? I seem to recall hearing something about pieds, but I forget what it was.. they tend not to eat as well as other morphs, not breed as well, or something or another?? Fill us in..?

Thanks,
Bristen.

[mykee]

Bristen, that's about the long and short of it.

[RandyRemington]

Have you heard of the hets doing poorly or just the homozygous? Is it mainly a problem of picky feeders or have shorter lives been noticed too (would have to be a lot shorter to notice it this early compared to a normal ball python life span).

According to Peter Kahl's web page he first proved piebald genetic with a piebald female (a pair actually) so I know piebald females can grow up and breed but it seems you don't hear about it (that’s the only one I’ve heard of laying eggs but then I don’t know many people with pieds). Maybe they just take their time and het females are preferred. Now watch the first 10 piebalds I hatch be females...

[mykee]

Randy, welcome to the forum if you haven't already been welcomed formally. I've heard of quite a few breeders this year witness breeding and then nothing. These females for the most part were hets, but well above cut off for breeding size, 2000g-ish. I guess genetically speaking there is only one line of pieds that I'm aware of, (correct me if I'm wrong) so the genetic pool seems to be on the shallow end so to speak. The Line just needs more new blood bred into it.

[RandyRemington]

Remember all the possible hets for sale back when pieds where bigger bucks? I think they have been outbred a lot already. In fact, with the sporadic pied het marker I bet there have been plenty of 25% possible het pied females produced and lots of those will produce pieds. The pied offspring of those marker 25% chance het girls will likely have been outbred 4 consecutive generations from the original imported pieds. If there are still universal problems after that then it must be something about the pied gene it's self. Maybe some super genes can be bred in to compensate for any negative effects of being homozygous pied.

With anything even remotely bad for business (or good for competition) being a taboo subject there sure is a lot of room for speculation regarding the nature of ball python morphs.

[zero&stich]

Just a sidenote LadyLuk, The Sutherlands have a good reputation and I was on their site the other day. They have alot of Axthanics, Pastel, ect for sale. I'd check them out, and the other breeders on this forum and the "bigger" business's such as Khaul, Graziani, NERD(even though Kevin can be a bit aggorant). Another distributor is pretty good but as to if they have access to ball morphs I'm not sure. Regal Reptiles are good to.

Good luck tho. Agreed with everyone else, pick a morph that you enjoy most and you'll stick with it.

I enjoy the Pieds, Albinos, Pastels and when the Snow ball was produced that blew my mind away! :)

[ladyluck]

Who are the Sutherlands?

thanks

K.

[RandyRemington]

http://ballpython.com/

[ladyluck]

That site is located in the states. I'm looking to buy in Canada.

If anyone has any info on where I can get a Female Pastel in Canada, please let me know.

K.

[Jeff_Favelle]

There's LOTS of female Pastels available in Canada. I see two ads for them in the classifieds right now.