my herping experience

[bidden]

My girlfriend and I went to a provincial park for the long weekend and we saw a bunch of very cool animals.

The typical gardner snakes were everywhere, saw a couple Eastern smooth green snakes, very awesome green on them.

The highlight was along one of the trails, suprisingly in a very high foot traffic area I saw an Eastern Hognose snake. VERY COOL. It was about 18inches long and had very distint brown/grey bands. I didn't know what it was at the time but did notice it had a very different looking nose, then after a quick search on the net found it.

So after my very best Steve Irwin impression it got away, I really would of like to have seen it up close, maybe even see the 'play dead' it's know for.... ahhhh well....

Saw 3 spotted tirtles in the 'ducks unlimited wetland'. also a cool find concidering they are threatened as well.

A tonne of frogs, mostly green, but a few brown with black around the eyes/head.

So that was my first 'field herping' experience if that's what you want to call it..... Very fun, my girlfriend had a good laugh at me looking everywhere for stuff. We're heading up to the Bruce Pinnensula for Thanksgiving, might see something then, but it will probably be too cold. you never know...

[crossley]

Hognose at Macgregor,really interesting,never seen them there before. Good sighting

[Kimo]

man wheres the pics!!!! doesnt anyone bring a camera anymore!!!

Josh

[Ontario_herper]

Probably not the best idea to give away the locations of the two At Risk species that you mentioned. You may think of editing your post and taking out the location.

[bidden]

David, Tried to edit but I can't change the Thread title... sorry.... but It even says in the park brochure that there are spotted tirtles in the park.... that's one's kinda already been broadcast :)

Ya I was kicking my self when we got there, we forgot a couple important things for the weekend... Camera, and Bacon for breakfast..... man, Bacon on the fire is one of the best things ever and I forgot it!!!!! DANG!!!!!

[JD@reptiles]

whats a gardner snake?

[bidden]

sorry, Garter.... for some reason I always call them Gardner snakes :)

[S Gillingwater]

Although the damage is likely done, please find a way to remove this post. Regardless of a brochure stating where this species was found, you gave away very specific information. This type of ignorance can not continue. Bragging to a list about the species you found is one thing, but stating details is another. Please be happy that you were lucky to see these creatures in the wild, the world does not need to know!

I can not believe this type of thing still continues when we have so many reptile species declining in Ontario. If you claim to have an interest in herps, please think before you write.

[nburgmei]

While I agree that certain information should not be divulged, I also believe you need to use a little more tact when trying to educate people.

"This type of ignorance..." Although you didn't explicitly call the poster ignorant, it was implied. And while it is better than the commonly misused "stupid" that many put in its place, calling someone ignorant is a bit harsh.

Also, I hardly consider what he or any of the rest of us do as "bragging." It's merely an expression of our interest. It's good to be able to talk to other like-minded people about your finds. Much better than the sideways looks you get from your uninterested girlfriend!

While I do agree with you that specific locations should be kept secret, I just think you shouldn't be so harsh. He had no ill intentions.

[S Gillingwater]

To clarify, I used the word "ignorance" because this is an issue that has been brought to the attention of the herp community through this forum, countless others, as well as educational programs, tv and other forms of media. It is well known that we should not give out sensitive information.

When the facts are available to an individual and they are not taken into consideration before an action is taken, it can not be justified. The word ignorance means: the condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed (American Heritage Dictionary), reread my post with this in mind.

I had mentioned "bragging" because the information went far beyond stating the species, and included the location information. As a long-time herper and biologist I am more than thrilled to share my finds with others that I trust, but remain very cautious and humble in doing so. There is a difference between sharing an interest and excitement (which most of us do) and providing too much information.

The issue here is far more important than hurt feelings. If I have offended an innocent person that made a mistake, that was not my intent. If I have offended a person that should have known better and added too much information to get credit, then so be it. Regardless, posts like this should not happen. Looking over many of the previous posts on this forum, it is apparent that many people here care about native species and many make no apologies when they state why we must keep locations secret.

So with the number of these positive posts regarding this issue available on this forum, posts such as the one we are discussing should not happen. Far too much damage can be done from avoidable mistakes and it is up to all of us to put forth a stronger effort to educate ourselves.
I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.
Scott

[Ontario_herper]

After having a brief exchange with Bidden, it has become clear to me that a spotted turtle was not actually the species seen. The species seen was almost certainly a painted turtle. Further more, spotted turtles are not known to occur in the area mentioned.

I also cast doubts on the likely hood of a hognose snake being found. Once again, they are not known to occur in that area. It may simply have been a water snake or some other dark coloured species.

Dave-

[nburgmei]

I replied to your post mostly because I didn't believe the way you went about it would effectively get your point across. With full knowledge of what you meant by ignorant, that's just not a very tactful way of getting someone to see things your way. Especially when it is someone you are not familiar with. When confronted in such a way over the internet by someone you have no real life association with, many are just compelled to shrug their shoulders and overlook the actual meaning of the post. Which in your case, was a fairly important one.

I'm less concerned with hurt feelings than I am with getting the message across. I just thought over the internet it would work better to show your, kindler, gentler side. With someone you associated with, at least occasionally, it'd probably be different.

Sorry if I've come off as preachy.

On a different note, what branch of biology are you? I'm studying wildlife biology currently.

[Swampwalker]

Reading the post that Scott made in the Turtle Forums (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53575) will probably make people understand better why this is so important, and the emotions behind his response to this thread.

Originally posted by S Gillingwater
In late July/early August, multiple Spiny Softshell Turtle nests were stolen from a research site along the Thames River. If you have any information about this incident or on the sale of this species in Canada please contact me at the below number and email or contact the Aylmer District Ministry of Natural Resources office at (519)773-4700.
If you prefer to remain anonymous, contact Crime Stoppers at:
1-800-222-TIPS.

Authorities are still investigating this situation, but we are now going public to find the people involved and to highlight poaching issues in Ontario. This is a situation that can not be tolerated, as it comprimises both the species in the wild, and the research data being collected.

Thank you,
Scott D. Gillingwater
Chair, Spiny Softshell Turtle Recovery Team
Species at Risk Biologist
Upper Thames River Conservation Authority
(519) 451-2800 ext. 236
gillingwaters@thamesriver.on.ca

[Cerastes]

I should probably have addressed this sooner. I am the leader of the spotted turtle census project at MacGregor Point. It is with 100% confidence that I state that both species in Bidden's sightings were mis-identified. Dave is correct. Spotties or Hognose do NOT inhabit the area specified. it is a wonderful spot to observe painted turtles and all sorts of other herp life, but not these two species. Please do try to respect the sites of our more sensitive species by not advertising them on the internet.

Respectfully yours, with thanks
Steve

[S Gillingwater]

Thanks for the clarification of the post Dave and Steve, it is one of those things we have to be so careful about these days. And yes Stewart, my post may have sounded rather hastily written and blunt due to recent events.
Steve, I think you need to update your photo here...with the new "do"!
Regards,
Scott

[hooter]

How was he braging?

Its called the Field Herping section of this forum. What the **** eles do you think we would talk about? He did nothing wrong and im sure if someone wanted to find these turtles that they very well could regaurdless of his post. You people need to chill I swear you take to much stuff WAY TO SERIOUS. Dont even quote me on this and say that endangered turtles is more serious because I really dont care what you have to say :)

[Shad0w]

I have to agree with hooter...

I see nothing wrong with sharing locations of where fellow herpers spotted certain animals..

after all, most of us just want to view the animals..

Personally, If I saw a rare herp... I would be eager to share it with you guys.. after all its why we are here right?

[nburgmei]

Although I questioned the necessity of the tone of S Gillingwater's post earlier, I agree with what he's saying. Well, except the bragging part, but that's not important to this discussion really.

Economically speaking, spotted turtles are a scarce resource. Just because most of the vocal members of this website are willing to obey laws and respect herps, that doesn't mean everyone reading the website is. The field herping section would be a prime hang-out spot for someone trying to find a rare species to keep as a pet or to sell. I'm sure there are some less respectful keepers out there that would be willing to pay a high-dollar amount for a rare species.

Sharing that you found a rare herp isn't a bad thing, we're glad to hear it. I found rare herps all summer. That was part of my job, but telling us a narrow range as to where it was spotted is. That's how people pinpoint where to find things.

I found Kirtland snakes, copperbelly water snakes, and four-toed salamanders in southern Indiana. That's common knowledge if you flip through a field guide, but I'm not going to tell you any more than that, especially if I don't know you.

[CamHanna]

nburgmei, could we see some pics from your finds this Summer? I'd love to see the copper-bellied watersnakes.

[nburgmei]

Well, I don't personally have any of the pics, but I might be able to get hold of the person that does.

I'll try my best to contact them and see if I can get the pictures of the kirtlands and copperbellies.

[bidden]

wow, I leave this thread for a while and look what happens :)

You all are right, I should not have mentioned exactly where I saw these. At the time I was very happy to have seen these and in a way it was bragging, yes. But as mentioned earlier this is an area to brag on what you have descovered.

Yes it was ignorant (as in your definition) and I did try to rectify my mistake as soon as I could, but unfortunatly the damage had already been done because you cannot edit your thread subject on this fourm.

So now I wonder what the big deal is if I did mis-identify the species I saw. Why is everyone getting all worked up about me flapping my jaw for nothing at all......

Yes I understand people are passionate about their work/hobbies... if you catch me posting on an off day you'll see I can blast someone about their inproper care of gecko's like the best of them.... But a polite reply like David did was all it took for me to try to correct my mistake.

again I apologize for the mixup... let's let this thread die :)

[Ontario_herper]

It is possible to share your field experiences and photos without disclosing the capture sites, especially with the detail that Bidden did.

Of course there are some species that would be more at risk from disclosing locality data than others. Hognose and more so spotted turtles are two species in Ontario that may have some attraction to poachers.

It only takes one or two bad apples to make all private keepers look like a group that is out to poach animals at every opportunity. Unfortunately, many people outside the private sector (field researchers etc...) have this opinion of people that keep reptiles in their homes. Instead of seeing private keepers as a wealth of information and an ally, they are seen as a threat to wild species survival.

As someone that is very passionate about studying reptiles both in captivity and in the wild I find the label of being one of these unethical keepers and all the bad things that are believed to go with it very tough to swallow. Because of these ignorant (yes there’s that word again) opinions sometime expressed by people outside the private sector, I do take disclosing the location of certain reptiles seriously. I do not want to add to the stereo-type by sharing sensitive information.

[ydnic]

blah blah blah.....

[Matt_K]

Originally posted by ydnic
blah blah blah.....

Thanks for your imput..

Hooter, keep your posts clean we don't need the profanity.. Ontario_herper, nburgmei, S Gillingwater and Cerastes all make VERY valid points.. No need to be rude to them or any other members...

[Matt_K]

Also, I edited the title for those of you who requested it be edited..

[Siretsap]

There are also downfalls to keeping locations of rare species a secret. As the value of houses increase, it will not be that long till you wake up to see your childhood forest being torn down to build houses. If you always kept your findings to yourself and not mention it to others, your species would dissapear with the destruction of that habitat.

I do not see why he shouln't have put the title there, if it is a provincial park. The species are prob listed at the entrance of the park, so anyone who can read knows what species there are.

I do not think that we should publish the findings in the papers, but it is important to let people know there are protected species.
Keeping this information in case of a few bad apples can do more dammage in the long run than having a neighberhood aware of a valuable species in a secluded area and thus protecting it. The weight of a community is way heavigher on your city "maire" than that one of a few herper society. Rescencing the findings is a valuable information to also keep.

[Ontario_herper]

http://www.gbayreptiles.com/monitoring.htm

This is a URL for an organization that will gladly accept your reptile sightings. The species and location can in turn be distributed to the appropriate people.

[bidden]

thanks matt

[Matt_K]

No Problem, next time if you need it changed, just shoot me a PM or an Email, it takes two seconds and i have no problem doing it :D