Reptile Guarentee

[karmeleon]

Hello, I sold a 2 year old red foot tort to someone. I had only purchased it 2 days before myself which I told them. It was healthy, active and eating well. I told them I would give them a 7 day gaurentee on the animal with a full refund if anything went wrong. They brought it be inspected by a tort expert they know who pronounced it healthy and a good buy. They phoned me and let me know all was well and they were happy with it. Then 1.5 weeks later they phone me to say it has stopped eating. I feel that it is kind of late to want anything done now I mean bad husbandry or anything could be the problem after this time. What do u think?

[Kevin McRae]

Well if you sold it for a very good price, I would give them there money back because they would tell people to buy from you because your nice person, who gives out gurantees.

But if it costed a couple hundred I wouldn't becasue its over the warrenty date.

But I am not sure....

[Stockwell]

Warranties on herps are generally very short, due to the reasons you mentioned.
In general face to face transactions that don't involve shipping, come with no warranty at all.
The buyer should inspect the animal carefully and buy it based on what they see.
Animals that are shipped generally have either a 24 or 48 hr guarantee, as live delivery must always be promised, and a couple days is enough to determine whether the airlines or the flight circumstances caused any severe health issues.

Anything up and above this is as specified by the seller,or agreed to between both seller and buyer as a condition of the sale.

You're right, reptiles can go off feed or even die from incorrect husbandry in a matter of hours, so having long warranties isn't fair to the seller when you're talking about perishable goods.
I know of one case where someone bought a gecko, baked it in the sun in their car, then tried to return it dead, less then one hour later.
Now why should that be warranty? Obviously it was the buyers error.
Once an animal is out of your hands, it's out of your control, therefore how can you guarantee it?

If you told them 7 days, that is longer than the norm. If they contacted you to report a problem 1.5 weeks after the sale, well it's simple....
It's now their animal, and their problem.

[Dom]

I totally agree .. You inspect the animal and once u buy it .. it becomes your animal and your responsibility .. Not the sellers responsibility ..

IMO - you did more then you had too to satisfy that client .. Suggest some help or husbandry tips but i wouldn't give his money back b/c it has stopped eating ..

Best of luck with the situation

[karmeleon]

Thanx for the input. I explained that I could not refund but we discussed husbandry. Apparently no heat was being supplied in air conditioned house at night. Hopefully with heating she will resume eating.

[Samba]

How unfortunate! Just curious... why did you sell this turtle 2 days after buying it yourself? And, why would you guarantee it for longer than you've even owned it??

Questions aside, you have nothing to worry about. The poor tortoise will be the one to suffer if anything goes wrong... Glad to hear you've discussed husbandry with the purchaser, but shouldn't that have been done before the sale was final? (From the thread it appears this was not discussed before hand, at depth, and that the buyers are apparently oblivious to the basic needs of this tortoise...)

Anyways, hope it will begin feeding again...

[karmeleon]

I bought it from someone who had to get rid of it in a hurry for the purpose of selling it and making a bit of money myself. I did extensively discuss husbandry before the sale and let them know what they were getting into and explained what I could but it is also the buyers responsibility as well to do more research. The reason I gave this long of a guerentee is because I had the tort for a short period of time in which it was healthy and this time period of the guerentee ensured that it was healthy.

[Corey Woods]

Proper husbandry knowledge is the responsibility of the PURCHASER not the seller. The only thing the seller can do is try and make sure the purchaser isn't a complete moron.....but that aside everyone should do research before purchasing an animal.

Corey

[BoidKeeper]

Holly smokes guys I've been backing up every thing I've sold for a month.
Proper husbandry knowledge is the responsibility of the PURCHASER not the seller.
I like that, I think I'm going to adopt it.

I have to say though I want more than 48 hrs when I buy an animal that has to be shipped. 48 hrs is not very long at all.
Cheers,
Trevor

[RepTylE]

Pretty stupid of them to buy an animal and not bother to supply it with approprate heat,then complain about it not eating. My understanding is that redfoots can quickly develop respitory illness if not kept warm enough too. Looks like a disaster in the making there.
That reason alone should negate any talk of refunds although you went over the top as far as guarentees are concerned.

[Samba]

I would never sell or adopt out an animal without making sure I've done all my research on the purchaser. Maybe it's a side-effect from running a rescue for so long, but I certainly care enough about the animals to say no when I think the purchaser is buying/adopting the animal for the wrong reasons; is inexperienced with reptiles (and chooses a high-maintenance pet); etc. I also would never give such a long guarantee if I only owned the animal for 2 days.

If you did "extensively discuss husbandry before the sale" and the buyers still didn't know what they were doing I'd ask to buy the animal back... obviously they're too stupid to absorb any information you've provided them for the proper care and maintenance of this animal.

[rwg]

I think it's harsh to call these people stupid. You dont even know them. Certainly it's fair to say they are ignorant. Discussed or not, if it's new territory for them, the conversation may be a blur of half rememebered requirements. Written care sheets are a lot better. Also, people may not see the harm in deviating just a little bit from the prescribed care. "So my hot spot is 75 not 80...what's 5 degrees anyway?" This also doesn't make them stupid...just ignorant.

Sounds like you are helping to educate them out of their ignorance through further conversations about husbandry. If they are correcting their mistakes then they are trying to learn from you and do the right things now. This could work out for all concerned.

[Tarzet]

I agree with you completly Roy and Corey!!!
How can you be responsable for an animal not in your care? Thanks for the memory Roy.... :P This story has come up a few times in other posts with this topic. Glad that my horrible experience can be an example! :P :P

About 4 years ago I sold a trio of Het Blizzards at the reptile show, only for her to come back with two of them dead in thier containers not an hour later. The containers were hot and so were the bodys. They had been cooked when left in the hot car. She was rude, accusing me it was my fault and was successful in getting me very upset. Which was imbarassing, seeing it was at a very crowded show. I did replace them...which I shouldnt have done, and later it made me madder about the whole thing wishing I had handled it differently. At the time Het Blizzards were selling for over $200. each. It was sad that my poor babys had to die that way. Boy did I learn from that one!
Unfortunatly there is people out there that will lie for there own bennifit even though they know they are the ones that are wrong. It's sad. I now always have a sign on my table that says All sales are final, AND one warns about placing containers in the heat or sun. Those contaners are like little green houses. It can get too hot in there VERY quickly. If we put them in those little containers, we have to protect them while they are in it.

Karmeleon, Since they understood you had just had it 2 days, and they had someone that was experienced with Torts say it looked good. How CAN they bame you?? Hmmm some people ned to put the shoe on the other foot!
Good luck with this situation.

[Samba]

I don't think it's harsh to call them stupid, in my mind they are, especially after reading all the events leading up to this post. It's just my opinion and you are entitled to yours as well. Trust me, I held back a lot of things I wanted to say...

I have to be 'harsh,' as you put it, because I can't let an animal go without knowing it will be ok. I don't sell animals for profit and (even though I'm not condeming it) I don't think it's right to put a living being into the hands of an amature without providing the education.

Yes, the PURCHASER has the majority of the responsibility here, but I do think the SELLER has some obligation, to the animal, if anything, to at least educate and screen potential buyers.

It seems like the purchasers have been educated, and if they still can't provide BASIC care (we're talking heat, not a full spectrum UV light here) than maybe their motives for purchasing the animal should be looked at.

Karmeleon: Please continue to provide guidance to the purchasers; you may also want to offer them the number of a reptile vet in your area that you trust where they may be able direct questions regarding the animal's health and condition. Good Luck! =)

Tarzet - sorry to hear about your unfortunate incident... that is exactly the reason that I don't breed reptiles anymore... once you sell them, their fate rests in your trust in a purchaser, who may or may not be the wonderful owner all animals could hope for. In that situation I would not have replaced the animals... anyone with a brain would know not to leave them in the car... then again, so many human babies die because they are left in cars...

Anyhow... I'm glad to hear that you now have signs up protecting you, your business and your animals.

[karmeleon]

I do like to make a little money where I can because it costs me so much to keep the animals I have. I told them that I would be available for any further questions. However well u screen people u will still have problems sometimes. People try to take shortcuts in husbandry or don't understand when u explain things to them. That said hopefully with my reccomendations the tort will be on the road to recovery. Thanx for all ur input.

[concept3]

I have to agree with Corey. When your at a show for example, you cant take the time and give everyone a lesson on husbandry. If you give them a written caresheet or even told them about a site like ssnakess, you have went above and beyond your obligation.

[Artemis]

It is true that in terms of monies exchanging hands, proper husbandry and knowledge thereof is the responsibility of the purchaser. However, the seller isnt obligated to sell to anyone in particular either, and if you get the "don't know what they are doing" vibe from a customer, I say let em walk. Might reduce some of the worry about whether or not they will be bringing it back in a sandwich bag in a weeks time, with their receipt in hand. I thought perhaps one day id open a pet shop, so I could get to experience all the animals my husband would never let me actually bring home, but I realized id be kicking everyone out of my store and telling them to come back when they knew how to take care of the animal, which would probably mean id be filing chapter 11 in a month or 2.

But you said it had just gone off feed, not that it had passed on, so why on earth would they think they were entitled to a refund anyways?

GL, hope the tortise makes it!


Artemis

[karmeleon]

Just to report that with my advice the tort is now doing great. I am happy for the animal. It shows how quickly people are to blame the seller and not themselves.

[Samba]

Glad to hear! Hope s/he's eating well and won't have anymore problems! =)

[RepTylE]

The reason I called those people stupid is because there is tons of literature on husbandry out there as well as on the net. These are not the early days of herp keeping when information was scarce. If you aren't willing to do your "homework" and find out what an animal that you are purchasing needs, then you fall into the criteria for stupid in my book.

[rwg]

People dont even know they should be looking for more information. I knew only what the pet store told me when I bought my corn snake, and I'm only fortunate that at some point somebody mentioned this site to me, or I'd still be stupid... asuming that what the pet store told me is all I'd ever need to know. Let's not confuse stupidity with ignorance. We're all ignorant before we learn.

[Simon]

I agree with everyone here

giving out 7 days of gurantee is already long enough.
Heck there are already risks for us breeders for these already. You could have over heated, dehydrated, freeze it to death and we wont know.

Basically once the animals are out of our hands and care, there are just too many variables that could have caused our animals to have died....or get sick.

It might have been from the buyer's animal that made our animals sick. Then you return it and make our collection sick too.

This is a very high risk for us breeders and we shouldn't have to gurantee our healthy animals for over 7 days.......

There are people out there that have absolutely no idea what they're doing and blame it on us breeders.......sigh~~

[spidergecko]

Originally posted by concept3
I have to agree with Corey. When your at a show for example, you cant take the time and give everyone a lesson on husbandry. If you give them a written caresheet or even told them about a site like ssnakess, you have went above and beyond your obligation.

The obligation you owe is to the animal, in which case you can never go above and beyond.

[capsicum]

Just curious what people think is an appropriate guarentee for a reptile from a pet shop?

TK

[Artemis]

Well my shop guarantees for either a week or 2 weeks, depending on the purchase. The animals that are known to be delicate and would be easily lost if improper husbandry were a factor only get 1 week. The hardier species usually get 2 weeks.

So like an ETB would probably get a week, but a corn snake would probably get 2.

[meow_mix450]

What u can do is if it dies then give them half the money back, cant do much. Also if your a breeder u can offer the other one half price.

Meow