female for breed

[kjay]

hi, i have a large female bp that is breedable, i live just outside windsor ontario, is it a reasonable deal if i offer to let her breed to a male pastel , in return i just want a pastel baby out of the rest the owner of the male can have the rest. Would this be a fair thing. If so anyone with a male pastle get in touch

[marisa]

The problem with that is, why would someone want to give you one of the pastel babies that are worth around 1,500.00 over just buying their own normal female for 100.00 bucks? It's not cost effective for the owner of the pastel unless they just want to be SUPER nice to you....which hey, happens..... IMHO anyways.

Marisa

[justinO]

A breedable size would cost them over $200 for a normal, that's if they can even find one.

If I was pimping out my big females for breeding, I'd want to do it with a high end morph! But that's just me (*wink wink*, I have a few huge females, anyone wanna loan me a pied? lol)

I don't know about pastels, I haven't even looked to see about the genetics of them...... but unless it's a trait that is dominate, the babies will all only be 100% hets.

Anyway, no harm in lending out males, but you might end up having to make a different deal than what you want kjay.......


Jessy
:)

[kjay]

i see, i thought most guys hang on to their females, and if a guy had a male ready to breed but no female that would be good, so more realistic if i get my own adult male and breed, i dont care if its a morph or not , just more for the experience for my nephew and i , thanks

[Kury]

Kjay: like marisa said, money wise, it's not really worth it for the owner of the male. But, you might be able to find someone who would do it. Maybe.

justin: if I remember right, pastel is dominant. So a normal x pastel would create a batch with equal pastels and equal normals. No hets. I'm pretty sure I'm right, if I'm not, feel free to correct me.

[mykee]

Jessy, $200 for a breedable female, point me in the general vicinity and sign me up for a couple hundred of them. $400-$500 seems much more realistic.

[Ron]

Samantha, Pastel Jungles are co-dominant.

Jessy, I'm with Mykee; I'll take all the $200 breedable female BP's you got.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Kjay, check your PMs. :)

[hhw]

Kjay, that's not a bad deal... if you lived near me, I'd make that deal with you anytime. However, that would only apply for a) a codominant morph, and b) more than 1 of the offspring turned out to be that morph. Hope you find someone to make that deal with you and that you get yourself a nice pastel next year. Good luck!!!

[marisa]

Obviously breedable fmales cost more. I was speaking of someone who owns a pastel not having any normal females they are raising up ahead of time.

I still do not see how it is good for the owner of the pastel, unless they absolutly have NO females....its basically giving away a pastel and two normals?

What if only one pastel hatches? What if all normals hatch? What if all pastels hatch? What if none hatch? I mean these are all things someone who is looking to breed pastels would want to avoid, by having their own females.

Again, just IMHO.

Marisa

[kjay]

marisa, no need to defend your point i respect it, i have no problem with what you wrote, i just asked a question. The advantage i see for them is they have one more female that a male could breed with, it cost them nothing, to let their male breed and they end up with more snakes in the long run, i have seen pastels for a grand a female the size of mine is roughly 3-5 hundred. The snakes produced from mine would just be a bonus to that breeder, say they have 2 pastels, i get one they get one, poof there is free money off one snake that cost them nothing. There are people out there who may have sunk all their money into 1 male pastel adn cant afford a female as cheap as they are, wouldnt that make it a doable scenario for that guy, he ends up ahead no matter how you slice it. I respect your post

[justinO]

you are very much right mykee (and others)........ i don't know where i came up with $200 for a female...... that would get you a 800 gram i guess! 400-500 is correct, and again, if you can even find them. right around september people go female crazy and sellers can ask pretty much whatever they want!

***still waiting for the PM's for studding to my 3000 gram female :p ***

And thank you, now I know about pastels....... which makes me wonder why there arn't more of them?

[hhw]

Marisa, I would personally do it. Firstly, you'd breed the other person's female last, not affecting whether or not your own females would take. If you were to just buy a bunch of your own breedable females, you'd be spending several hundred dollars and there's no guarantee the females you bought would take for you. If someone were to just lend you your female instead, and it doesn't take, at worst you are out a few rats. If it does take, so what if the guy ends up getting a pastel cheap... you'll get a few extra pastels you otherwise wouldn't normally have. And if any of them are female pastels, you'll have more breeding stock for future projects with different blood. It's not as if that person would be guaranteed to buy a pastel from you otherwise anyhow, so I don't see it as losing anything... it's just a mutually beneficial arrangement. Besides... you can never have enough females :P

[mykee]

Kjay, if you've found pastels for $1000, point me in the general vicinity and sign me up for a couple hundred of them. I see your point regarding the 'free snake' idea, but honestly, who would go out and make the investment of $1500 (yeah, $1500!) for a male pastel without having any normal female to breed him to? This isn't the States, people don't buy pastels as pets up here. When we Canadians buy expensive morphs, they're bought to breed. I have two breedable pastel males and quite a few female pastels, and honestly if you came to me with a normal female to breed, I would offer you ALL of the normal pastel siblings. "free snakes" right?

[kjay]

mykee nows your chance to buy those pastels, put your money where your mouth is, or letters, lol $1000.00 on the site, hey when you buy the couple hundred you said you would buy should have to breed it with my female for finding them for you. all in fun .


http://www.prehistoricpets.com/pythons.asp

[Jeff_Favelle]

That's $1450 CDN and with CITES paperwork and international shipping that would push the price over $1700.

[kjay]

somethings are to good to be true, dam.

thanks to all for your posts, they were informative. I actually only got into snakes cause my 4 year old nephew loves them, so i figured learning together and teaching how to treat them with respect they have earned would be great family time, so far it is babies would blow his mind, mine to

[mykee]

Damn you Favelle, you said EXACTLY what I wanted to say, numbers and all! You suck!

[kjay]

mykee anyway you slice it we take one hell of a knockin on the dollar.

[Jeff_Favelle]

kjay, get a pair of corns. They would be PERFECT to experience the thrills of life and are so easy to breed and hatch out, as well as an adult pair would be pretty cheap to get. It would be a GREAT experience that you would never forget! :D

[hhw]

Hrrm... well, I still think kjay's proposal is reasonable. For any breeding loan, I think the offspring should be distributed according to the market value of the parents. Giving him a single male pastel of your choice, assuming decent clutch size and ratios, would seem to be about right.

[Brent Strande]

I would definitely do it...

As it was stated before, whichever babies were produced wouldn't have been if not for the extra female.

Say that you have 1.2 and each clutch pops out 7, that free female would pop up your total by 150% from 14 to 21 babies.

Some may say, but look at the money you're losing by giving away the one pastel... but on the other hand, you have six others to make money on... and not one of them cost you an extra dime to produce (except perhaps a rat or two)

[Ron]

Personally I wouldn't do a breeding loan unless it was with someone I knew very well.

First off you would need to quarantine the animal to protect your collection.

Then there is a trust issue; does the owner of the Pastel supply pics of everything from copulation to hatching? What if the owner of the Pastel tells the owner of the female that there was only 7 eggs when there was actually 9 and/or lies about the results after they hatch? It's just too easy to get ripped off unless you can go over to their house and check out the goods for yourself.

[hhw]

Well, since in this case he is only asking for one of the offspring no matter what, I don't think the number of eggs is important. The issue would just be whether or not his female laid at all... a photograph of his female with the day's newspaper to see if it was skinny or not could verify that pretty easily. Obviously, there's some risk to both parties... but hey, nothing ventured nothing gained.

[mykee]

Trust is the big one, Corey Woods posted a do's and don'ts 'contract' of sorts regarding breeding loans, it was a while back, and very informative. Lots to take into consideration, what if the entire clutch doesn't yeild a single pastel?

[marisa]

That was my question...what if NO pastels come out? Or even worse......say only two eggs hatch....two normal males. I mean its not a big deal but definitly an issue you would want to be involved with a trusting person for. I would have to be VERY good friends for a breeding loan.

Marisa

[hhw]

It's not too hard to plan for all the different outcomes
1) If she doesn't produce, the loan can end or try again the next year
2) If all normals are produced, you can send him one of them. The loan can end or try again next year.
3) If only 1 pastel is produced, you keep the pastel and send him some of the normals. The loan can end or try again next year.
4) If only female pastels are produced, you send him a male pastel from one of your other clutches, and the loan ends.
5) If you get multiple male pastels, you send him one as is the original intent, and the loan ends.

It's not that hard to plan out all the different possible outcomes. But yes, trust is the issue. However, I would think that anyone producing several pastels wouldn't ruin their reputation over just a single male. The herp community is pretty small in Canada. On the other side, if he sends you his female you shouldn't have too much to worry about. You'd have to also have arrangements to cover vet bills in case the female develops some illness or liability if the female dies, but these can also be planned out ahead.

With the appropriate planning, the risk wouldn't be any greater than buying over the Internet. Just my 2 cents.

[Ron]

Yes Han good planning would be a solution but is it really worth it?

Personally I wouldn't put forth the effort into writing a contract and then dealings with the hassles associated with a breeding loan. Like I said before I would only do a breeding loan with someone I knew very well and that were within arms reach.....so I could strangle them if I needed to, lol.

[smeagel]

that web site is for a reptile store in California. That $1000 for a pastel is in american dollars. So it would actually end up being more expensive than buying one for $1500 in Canada.

[mykee]

Smeagel, you caught in a time-warp that sets you almost a day behind everyone else?

[Jeff_Favelle]

LOL!!

[BoidKeeper]

Well I have a buddy that has a male pastel and I have 5 adult females. Oh and by the way I've never paid more than $200 for an adult female. I got two small adults a few weeks back for $150 ea. Any way, my buddy is sending me his male and I'm pairing it with my females, incubating the eggs and getting the hatchlings feeding and we are splitting each clutch 50/50. We are both comfortable with that deal. I am any way!
Cheers,
Trevor

[smeagel]

No, mykee, just too lazy to read the rest of the post before i type my answer.

[Bristen]

Originally posted by mykee
Trust is the big one, Corey Woods posted a do's and don'ts 'contract' of sorts regarding breeding loans, it was a while back, and very informative. Lots to take into consideration, what if the entire clutch doesn't yeild a single pastel?

Hey Mykee, could you point me to where this information could be found? I'd love to see Corey's post on this topic.

Thanks,
Bristen.

[Bristen]

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
Well I have a buddy that has a male pastel and I have 5 adult females. [...snip...] Any way, my buddy is sending me his male and I'm pairing it with my females, incubating the eggs and getting the hatchlings feeding and we are splitting each clutch 50/50. We are both comfortable with that deal. I am any way!
Cheers,
Trevor

I'm comfortable with the setup also. Trevor and I are within 3 hours distance, so we can drive over to strangle each other if need be.. we also know each other quite well and have actually done this before on a much smaller project than the pastel project. This helps build trust and also provides both parties to see if such a setup works for them... starting with a smaller project is better for everyone because risks are lower.

As stated by many in this thread, the key word in this whole thing is "trust". If anybody notices Trevor and I aren't online anymore (or one or the other), perhaps check with the RCMP (Canadian police force), maybe we strangled each other :p

Later,
Bristen.

[Brent Strande]

A buddy and I are in on an albino bci project together and it seems like it will work just fine. I have an albino male as well as a het albino female... he also has a female het for albino and we still have a couple of years before they mature to work out details, but of course he could grab an albino (the whole litter wouldn't exist without his female!!!)

[mykee]

Trevor/Bristen, you guys are lucky to have the whole 'trust issue' solved. I personally, being the skeptic I am wouldn't trust anyone to work a breeding loan with unless I was the one to incubate-hatch-assist-feed (if need be), for no extra cost. Too many variables for me. I've been approached, but the trust just wasn't there.

[hhw]

Originally posted by mykee
Kjay, if you've found pastels for $1000, point me in the general vicinity and sign me up for a couple hundred of them.

http://market.GUESSWHERE.com/detail.php?cat=1&de=2681

Time to put your money where your mouth is. And that includes a normal sibling female to boot!!!

[Corey Woods]

Here is a copy of what I wrote on December 29 2002.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8348&highlight=breeding+loans

I'll explain how breeding loans work. I was b*tched out extensively for this in the past but oh well.

If the animals are of equal value the split is 50/50. If there is an odd animal in the litter it goes to the breeder who breeds the animals and hatches the eggs.

If one of the animals are of higher value the standard split is 2/3, 1/3. The 2/3's of the clutch goes to the person with the higher valued animal and the odd one out (if there is an odd number of offspring produced) goes to the person breeding and hatching out the eggs (which is usually the person with the higher valued animal).

When I first started offering to do breeding loans with people and splitting the offspring 2/3, 1/3 people thought I was trying to rip people off. But, as Jeff said above if I'm going to take a higher valued animal and breed it to a $300 normal I'm going to get more than 50% of the clutch. If I were to offer to breed my pied male to someones normal female I maybe inclined to offer them 1 male offspring out of the clutch considering het pied males run for $2500 US (which I think is more than enough compensation for lending me a $300 female on breeding loan!!).

Breeding loans are a tricky subject and a lot of "friends" aren't friends after a breeding loan goes sour so make sure everything is worked out before the animals are exchanged. Here are some of the things you'll have to work out before hand:

If the animal on breeding loan dies in your care who is responsible for that animal? IMHO if the animal died and it was not your fault then no compensation is needed as the way I look at it if it was properly taken care of it would have died regardless of who's place it was at.

If the animals are produced is the breeder responsible to sell them and then split the cash......or are you split up the animals to do with whatever each person pleases?

When the offsping are produced when are they split up? Is the breeder responsible to get them feeding before they are split up or are they produced and then split up right away? When they are split up what happens if the sex ratio is way off......lets say 6.1????? Are they sexed before splitting them up at all??

When is the breeder animal returned?

If the breeder animal comes down with a sickness who is responsible for the vet bills?

If you would like a word of advice only do breeding loans with people you can fully trust. If by chance the animal dies, gets sick or no offspring are produced the person on the other end always feels like they are getting the shaft and they start to think you are lieing to them to try and screw them out of money.

Hope this helps,
Corey

[Corey Woods]

This was posted on May 6 2004.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43662&highlight=breeding+loans

Most breeding loans work as follows:

If the snakes are of equal value you split the litter 50/50

If one snake is of higher value you split the litter 67/33.

If their is an odd number of offspring you give the odd one out to the person breeding the animals.

For a breeding loan to work you really have to trust each other. Otherwise one party feels like they are getting screwed. It is easier to setup a breeding loan with splitting offspring as that way if no offspring are produced you both get nothing.

As for your case above since you guys setting on a sum of money I was say that since the money was paid out and the person did get what they paid for (a breeder animal) I would say that the money should NOT be returned. A breeder animal was provided and as far as that animal goes he did his job (breed the females). If the females decided not to produce that is upto the females.

Corey

[mykee]

Hhw: AGAIN, unless that animal was listed for $400 or less, it's still going to cost over $1000 CANADIAN to get him here. Sheeesh!!

[Ron]

mykee,

Dr. Peter Kim in Burnaby B.C. is selling his Pastel males with a normal female sibling for $1000 CANADIAN.