Vet killed my baby

[panther_dude]

After worrying about her eggs for a couple days I took my girl to the vet yesterday. She was gravid with infertile eggs. When I took her in he said she looked good except for being a little dehydrated, x-rays showed uncalcified embryo inside of her. Even after daily calcium supplements the eggs did not calcify.
He said that she would be alright with the eggs for a week or so and that surgery wasn't needed at this time, but might be needed in the future. SO he gave her a shot of subcutaneous FluidOutpatient, anyone know what this is? He said it was to rehydrate her and should start working in a couple of hours. He gave her the shot in her side is this right? Iasked if the surgery could be done because she had stopped eating two days before, ans he said it was best to wait. I left the vet feling that he had done a good job, but now looking back I dont know what to think.

This morning I found her on the bottom of the cage, with her tounge sticking out. MY poor baby I dont know what to do. I feel as if I could die. Ive spent hours everyday since I got her 9 months ago looking after her, and just watching her roam around eating crix. I feel absolutly hopeless guys, i dont know............

R.I.P Galadriel my beautiful girl I'll never forget you. :w o>

[Shad0w]

Dood, Im so sorry to hear about the loss of Galadriel :(

[Artemis]

Well, i warn you in advance, everyone is going to defend the vet. But I feel ya man. I spent a buttload of money for the vet to tell me everything was ok, and the next morning the litter of 6 kittens were all dead but one, which died in another day or so.

Outpatient subcutaneous fluids )if you are reading this on your vet receipt) means an injection of fluids (probably a saline solution) under the skin, that did not require the animal to stay overnight.

I am very sorry for your loss. I know how hard it is to be worried about something, so much that you want the professionals to help, and then have the vet tell you its fine, then find it dead. It is a mix of anger and sadness. All I can say is, I know YOU did the best you could for your pet, and thats alll anyone can ask.

Condolances-

Artemis

[Dom]

IMO vets have procedure to take depending on the circumstances.. There is some critical descisions to take and he took one and decided it was safe...

I have had simillar accidents b4 with a vet .. lost two animals due to it. I held a grudge for the longest time but after a while let it go and realized that wether or not he did a mistake .. the dmv did what he was suppose to dowithin the best of his knoledge in order to help ..

Its unfortunate and I am trully sorry for your loss but I doubt nothing can be made as I see no real flaw in his work.

One advise.. Alwasy follow your gut instinc.. Its almost alwasy right..

[Collide]

did u get a necropsy done id hightly recomend it, it will narrow down what the issue was to a fuller extent.

Im sorry for you loss, i know how it feels!

[tdherper]

I'm saddened by your plight....

[meow_mix450]

sorry for your loss. But havnt you posted that your female has not been eating and such??? Im jsut curious if you have made that egg laying box for her to lay. The calcium supplements would not have help in that stage, calcium supplements must start once shes gravid, the last few days for supplements wont do anything.

Meow

[Kimo]

So sorry to hear about your loss...but even a vet can't control nature...it's the way of things. once again sorry for your loss, and best wishes to you.

Josh

[Invictus]

There was probably nothing the vet could have done, even with surgery. Chameleons have short lifespans as it is, and when they start to succumb to sickness, well... there isn't much anyone can do in most cases. I know it feels better to place the blame on the vet, but he/she probably did the best that he/she could under the circumstances.

In any event, sorry for your loss. I know how that feels.

[panther_dude]

meow mix are you crazy. Do you really think that i want someone telling me that it was my fault she dies. When did I say I only started suppliments days before she died. I had a lay box in there three weeks ago, she never touched it. Have a little common curtisy. I loved her more then any pet Ive evder owned. I spent hours every single day making sure she was fit and healthy. How dare you try and blame me for her death. Yes she did stop eating on monday why do you think i took her to the vet.
What are you thinking when you post something like that.
The calcium supplements would not have help in that stage, calcium supplements must start once shes gravid, the last few days for supplements wont do anything
Do you really think I am that stupid.

But I do thank all the rest of you for your sympathy.
I talked to the vet today and he said he did what he thought was best. Then he said at the stage she was in she probably would have died anyways. So my question was " If you knew that yesterday then why the hell didnt you tell me!?" at least it wouldnt have been such a shock and I could have at least spent the night with her then. I just want to know why the eggs didnt calcify with all the supplements she was getting. Dam infertile eggs.

(edited ~ DragnDrop)

[Ixidor]

I'm sorry to hear about your loss. Its always very sad when a pet dies :(. I don't think meow mix was trying to say it was your fault, he/she was trying to suggest possible ways the panther could have died(I think.....).I don't think anyone really wants to have a go at you and say it was your fault though =( Anyway, I really am sorry about galadriel. A necropsy would narrow down exactly what might have happened, a lot of vets have very limited knowledge of herp care even if they say they've had experiance with herps, they're usually limited to a few species

[Vengeance]

First just like to say sorry for you loss.

But also I'd like to say that if you don't want people's opinion on a subject such as this, you should keep it off public forums. I didn't see anything wrong with what Meow was saying, he or she was just offering an opinion.

[DragnDrop]

I don't see any accusations in what Meow_mix posted. He was asking and making an observation from the way I interpret the post.

If you don't want people to jump to conclusions, please refrain from doing so yourself.

I'm sorry you lost your girl, but when things go wrong with gravid chams, they go fast. Chances are pretty good that nobody could have stopped it from happening. Cham reproduction is still a tough area for us, even the best breeders suffer losses. Nobody is blaming you.

[dank7oo]

Sorry for the loss, but I hate to tell you it wasnt the VET who killed her. In fact, she was in your care, so if anyone is to blame it would be YOU (even though from what I have read there seems to be no explanation besides natures course for her death - nobodys fault).

Jason

[meow_mix450]

I hope that you didnt take my post the wrong way. I was just observering the possibilty that killed your veilded. I am not saying that its your fault or its the vets fault. I just didnt think that supplements at the last minute would have turned things around it might have i dont know, im no expert. Also if you have read my post i did not acuse you of killing your cham. Also that was a bit rude. Do i think your stupid; no i do not, im just pointing out my opinion and what i think. Again if you read my post i did say sorry for your loss.

Quote from Panther_dude:I just want to know why the eggs didnt calcify with all the supplements she was getting. Dam infertile eggs.

Well maybe we can answer that for you if you answer some of these question.
What supplements have you been giving?
How many times did you supplement?
And when did you start to increase the supplementation?

Quote from panther_dude:I talked to the vet today and he said he did what he thought was best. Then he said at the stage she was in she probably would have died anyways. So my question was " If you knew that yesterday then why the hell didnt you tell me!?"

Why didnt he tell you? there are many reasons why.
1 is money the other is he might have thought you were a senstive guy. Many possible answer.

I hope to get a sorry from you if you think i need one, and from the start i have been trying to help you sence you have posted that your chameleon has stopped eating. Acusing me of saying that its your fault was just wrong. Now i hope you dont take this post the wrong way either. Thanks to those who told him that i did not say i was saying he killed his cham

Meow

[HeatherRose]

I'm sorry for your loss...I lost a cham recently and I know how just plain sucky it is. I don't see anything in Jay's post that accuses you in any way shape or form of killing your chameleon, however, and try as we might, sometimes things just work out badly.

I don't think you can blame the vet though. I'm sure any veterinarian would try their best to save any animal. No one's perfect, though, and sometimes nothing can be done. Was it a herp vet or no? I've brought a chameleon to a non-herp vet (it was 3 am and an emergency) and they did basically the same thing, hydrating him with injections and keeping him warm and administering oxygen. The only thing that bothered me was the lack of compassion from her when it died on me...but she still tried with all she knew about chameleons from lectures in school and books she had laying around.

The subcutaneous fluid injection and everything else that was performed seems quite standard and I think that any vet you'd have taken her to would have followed the same procedure. (Correct me if I'm wrong please.)

I'd recommend a necropsy if it's not too late...in my experience you'll feel a lot better once you know what happened for SURE.

Good luck,
Heather Rose

[meow_mix450]

thats not a bad idea at all a necropsy:)

Meow

[HeatherRose]

Yup...it should run about $50-$60 and is well worth it in my opinion....you'll feel a lot better.

Heather

[CarlC]

I would follow Brandy's advice. Get the necropsy done. This will lead you to the cause of death. Once the results are in you will know who to blame. Yourself or the Vet.

Carl

[Artemis]

Told ya everyone would defend the vet.... hope you are getting through your grieving process ok. I dont care what everyone says either. There are lots of good vets out there, no denying that, but there are a lot of vets that aint so hot, either, and I dont know why everyone is always so quick to defend them. Truth is, vet SHOULD have told you if he didnt think your cham would make it, and it raises my eyebrows that he actually said it to you AFTER the fact.

I hope you are feeling better!

Artemis

[panther_dude]

thank you very much artemis at least someone has the same opinion I do. He did kill her by telling me she was going to be ok.

[Brent Strande]

"You're not going to die in a car accident today"

Now, is it my fault if you get killed in a car accident today since I said that it wouldn't happen and it did?

I understand your frustration, but if you have no faith in this vet, why did you bring the cham there in the first place? You already complained about this vet once, why didn't you find a better one?

Thats like taking your car to a mechanic that you know won't fix it, and then complaining if your car is not working properly after bringing it in.

[meow_mix450]

A very very good point made by Brent. Im saying that its not complelety the vets fault. Chameleons can hide there sickness really well, its usually to late at the last minute. There wasnt much the vet could have done. The vet saying she is going to be ok did not kill her, unless casted a spell on it and hope it would die. By him not tell you she is going to die wouldnt have help much anyways. It will hurt if you have lost something that is close. But you have to get over it and move on. Dont always blame someone else, and if you really wanted to know why she died then do an necropsy

Meow

[Brock]

Oh man,

Always so quick to blame other people. Sorry for your loss, guy, but the thing is that you have to accept the blame yourself in order to improve your husbandry techniques. I've had two out of four chameleons die on me and I accepted responsibility for every single one, even though my one baby jacksonii had an eye infection when I got him and he died 9 days later, I still blamed myself to force myself to be a better keeper.

In my experience, the female usually NEVER lays when you think she will, it's always a week or even three weeks after you think something's wrong. I don't know about other people, but my female stops eating for about a week or two before she lays, she usually accepts food on the day she's going to lay though. Another thing is, how many lay boxes did you have? Ideally you should have at least two, three including her plant container. My female has laid in sand, peat moss, her ficus plant, and her scheffleara plant. I would NEVER take her to a vet if I thought something was wrong near egg laying, because I know that if you F*** with nature's reproductive process, you're going to have problems. I was just watching a show on TV about turtles, they won't lay their eggs if they see any movement on the beach, it's only after they start to lay that they don't care. They won't dig or even search for a laying site until they know it's safe. And getting injections and being so hassled by you makes it easy to blame you for her death. And if everyone's saying that the vet did standard procedures, there's nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is that you had no confidence in the vet to begin with and you still took her there. Sorry to say it, but it's just as bad as your chameleon having confidence in you.

Truth hurts,
-Brock

[JonD]

Good post Brock.

Everyone is quick to blame, no one accepts it. ;)

[Brock]

AHAHAHAHAAHA that's such an awesome avatar.

[dank7oo]

Excellent post Brock ... have redeamed yourself from *cough* rough posts in the past (if you dont remember I would be more than glad to refresh your memory through PM - let me know).

Jason

[HeatherRose]

I agree, excellent post Brock ;)

Sometimes, chameleons just get sick, while othertimes, husbandry mistakes are made...no one's perfect. Not even the veterinarian you brough her to. But, out of ANYONE who could be responsible, least of all would be your vet.

Don't go looking for random people to blame for your mistakes. Did you get a necropsy done? I got one done once even though I was terrified that it would be my own fault and husbandry mistakes that resulted in the chameleons' death...it's worth knowing where the blame really does lie anyway, instead of being too scared to accept that it might be you. While my chameleons' death was natural, I still accept the blame for not being able to catch it earlier even though I know not much could have been done.

As herpers we are constantly learning and evolving, but the greatest thing we can do is learn from our own mistakes, accept them, and move on...

Heather Rose

[Artemis]

Its not so much about blame really. Death happens. Thats part of keeping an animal. But when you take an animal to a professional and are paying for medical opinion and care, you deserve the truth. I would hope 10 years of vet school and the amount of money we fork over to the vet could provide us with that much. This doesnt just happen with chameleons, either. It happens with all animals. I cant believe you guys dont find it a little messed up that the vet tells someone "it will be fine" and sends them home having faith in their professional opinion, then when the animal dies the vet says "oh I didnt think he would make it." Now how screwed up is that. When I went to the vet and was told the same thing about my kittens, and found them all dead 12 hours later, I managed to leave the vets office having spent a small fortune in special foods, nutritional supplements and more that are now sitting in a cabinet in my house. I think that there are a lot of animal doctors with no scruples. Same way with people doctors, though I doubt people would argue that point as much as the vet one seems to get argued. There are a lot of great, honest vets out their who try their hardest, and I know that, but is it so hard to believe that in this big world there are some really LOUSY ones, too! And as for having faith in your vet, well, until you go to a vet a lot and are familiar with their practices, what choice do you have but to trust what they say. After all, thats what you are paying for.

I think its terribly naive to believe that all vets are fabulous, and that they did everything they could. I think thats a downright delusional perspective in fact. Reality is, there are some vets who could care less about your animals and are more concerned with own pocketbooks. When fellow animal lovers run across these vets, and express their feelings about their bad experiences with a BAD vet, then it seems pretty moronic to sit there and say back to them "oh im sure the vet did everything they could." what makes you so sure. Its not about placing BLAME. Animals get sick and die, as do people.

But if I take my mother to the hosptial for something, and they give her some IV fluids, and send me home with her telling me she is fine, and she is dead in the morning, do you think im gonna sit there and say "oh they did everything they could?" Simple fact is, they will do everything they can as long as you are willing and able to pay for it. Vets are no different. The only difference is, if it was my mother instead of my pet, you had better believe Id file a big fat malpractice suit.

The fact that the vet actually told this kid after the fact that he didnt think the cham would make it, when he sent him home telling him it would be fine, is really, really screwed up, and I think its perfectly understandable, rational and legitimate to be angry at the vet for what was a clearly inaccurate prognosis. They arent doing us some big favor by doing that. We pay mucho dinero for it. If it was like the free vet clinic or some crap, then yeah, what can you say. But when you are paying for a service, and that service is clearly not rendered, then ofcourse you can, and should, be angry.

And punkuponastar, im SURPRISED at the harshness of YOUR comments especially. How can you say its his fault and not the vets. Thats so screwed up. Obviously we are not all vets and that is why we TAKE our animals there, when we know they need help and we dont know what we can or should do. Thats exactly what was done here, and the VET let this person down. If the vet thought this animal was a goner, which he conveniently admitted after the fact, then he should have said so outright when the animal was in his office and not six feet under.

These arent "random people we are blaming for our mistakes" as you so coldy put it. These are professionals we pay to let us know what is going on, and when that professional tells you its fine and sends you home, then you respect that opinion!

As for the necropsy issue. A lot of vets DONT do them. None of the ones around here do. When I lost all my kittens from the pregnant feral I took in, the vet told me if I wanted a necropsy done I would have to contact the regional college of vetrinary medicine around here. I did so, and they told me to get accurate results I should have one done on a minimum of 3 of the kittens, to the tune of 80 bucks USD a piece. I had already spent my money having the vet tell me everything was gonna be fine, so 240 dollars just to get the answers I was seeking from the vet in the first place was somewhat out of the question.

Im honestly surprised at you guys, and I Hope karma wont bite you in the butt when one of your beloved animals ends up in the hands of a bad vet. You will be biting your tongues then.


Still fuming here. Its not about blaming anyone. Its about getting what you pay for, and getting the truth.

And panther, it isnt entirely fair to say the vet killed the cham. The illness or injury killed the cham. The vet just didnt really step up to the plate in terms of telling you the truth, and letting you know what options you had. Personally if my vet knew my animal was dying, I would want to know and have the option of putting it down rather than letting it suffer further. You were denied the truth, which you paid for. And while the death of your animal still might not have been preventable, you would have had what you paid for, which was an honest, and accurate-as-possible prognosis. There is a big difference between "its gonna be fine" and DEAD, and I feel your pain and anger completely on that point!

Brent- you get points for a fun analogy, but its not entirely the same thing now is it. Even you can admit that.

And meow, I love you. You rock. Even with a differing opinion you manage to be graceful and supportive. Everyone oughta take a lesson from you, you dont have to be a nasty cold jerk to disagree.

And im ASHAMED of the rest of you. Death and the grieving process for something you love always involves stages. Blame happens to be one of them. So even if you think dude had the best vet ever, and it isnt fair to "blame" the vet or whatever, you could be a little less harsh in explaining that point of view. Jeez.

Like I said, Karma sucks, and I sincerely hope none of you end up with a bad vet one of these days. They ARE out there, whether it is feasible in your idealistic notions of vetrinary medicine, or not.

Hissssssssss

Artemis

[Enter]

LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNGG GGGGGGGGGGGG enough post for u?

sorray for ur loss, we can rebuild him, make him stronger, faster, smarter but i dont really want to spend alot of money

[HeatherRose]

And punkuponastar, im SURPRISED at the harshness of YOUR comments especially. How can you say its his fault and not the vets. Thats so screwed up. Obviously we are not all vets and that is why we TAKE our animals there, when we know they need help and we dont know what we can or should do. Thats exactly what was done here, and the VET let this person down. If the vet thought this animal was a goner, which he conveniently admitted after the fact, then he should have said so outright when the animal was in his office and not six feet under.


NO where, in my post, did I say it was his fault. I don't mean to come of harsh, just honest. Maybe you should actually go back and read the post before you jump on me? Maybe? Hmm? I guess we're not allowed to even think about calling out people's mistakes anymore...I'm not saying it's not a possibility though, but you seem epecially quick to blame the vet. Some vets are amazing, some are awful. It all depends. But to blame them of outright lying? :rolleyes:

And, in my experience, a necropsy for a chameleon is 40-50$ Canadian, or about 3.99$ US. :p Not...uh...kittens.

I still don't feel that blame can be placed ANYWHERE, on the vet, or on the owner, unless one was performed. However much money you paid for the treatements, wouldn't it be worth it to get the answers you want for an extra 50$?

H. Rose.

[Artemis]

Originally posted by PuNkuPoNAsTAR
Don't go looking for random people to blame for your mistakes.


Punk sweety i hate to say it but that pretty much says its his fault now doesnt it. He took it to the freaking vet. What more should he have done? Plus, even if unintended, the rest of your post was pretty harsh, at least IMHO. And I live in the US, so I know nothing about the availability of necropsies in Canada, but i DO know its not very easy where Im at. I really wanted to have done it for my kittens, but they wanted more than monthly car payment, and i just couldnt. I guess with necropsies, it depends on the vet.

If you read MY post a little more carefully, you will notice that i did in fact say it wasnt the vet's fault the animal died. However, it seems pretty disturbing to me how the vet managed to change his tune after the fact.

And I am sorry for the long post. Had to vent on that one.

[Collide]

This post was about the vet KILLING his cham, the vet dident KILL the cham.

and even though some vets are good reptile vets the might not be as framiliar with chameleons. chams IMHO take alot more special care then most other reptiles. There is much more room for error with more variables to deal with. I lost my first cham to egg laying issue mostlikly it was my fault i probably over/under suplemented her I learned from it what i could. I do think it is weird that the vet said after, that she prolly wouldent have made it, mabey he/she was trying to concol him make him feel slightly better. I think that some of the posts her are very good with excellent points.

but the fact is weither the vet sent her some saying she was good she prolly would have died at that point anyway. once chams show signs of sickness there is "usually" not much u can do.

non calcified eggs shounds like a calcium issue or something similar, this dosent accure if they are not breed, chams will produce eggs even with no male at all there almost similar in looks to firtal eggs, but smaller hence easier to lay.


The reason alot off people recomend necropsy is to correct any problems, everyone and i mean everyone can improve in there care, I do a necropsy on any cham that dies in my care, it pinpoints reason of death to an extent, If your mother went to the doctor and droped dead the next day do u want to know of what and why?

People here are just trying to help all have sent there condolences even though im sure some of them have reasions not to, and still did.

*I dont know why your cham died P-D but it is important to know why if it was some freek thing or something u can improve on, im not saying u dident take the best care possible but its important to know.

again it sucks to loose a cham i have a 4 year old going down hill now, and i know it sucks. And unfortunatly most of my guys are gettin old soo im sure the next few years I will loose more then id like to think about. All i can say is most cham people love chams because they are a challange and your always learning, and learning is what keeps u and your chams happy.

focus on the positive crap here. there is alot if u want to see it.

eak holly babble!

[Brock]

I believe it was previously stated that 'dude' had a past experience with the same vet and was displeased. Yet he brought his beloved chameleone back into the unsure arms of this bad vet.

Make sense?

No.
-Brock

[Matt_K]

This sentence right here makes me wonder sooo many different things..

Originally posted by panther_dude
I barley had money for the first vet exam. I dont have money to get a necropsy.

And he wants to get another one.....

[Artemis]

well obviously the vet didnt take out a knife and stab it to death- but stages of grieving make the subject line quite understandable in my book.

And matt- Im broke, too. But he didnt say " I didnt take it to the vet because I didnt have any money," he found the money, and he did take it.

And Brock- maybe he was willing to give this vet one more chance, maybe he took it to this vet because he had seen this animal before, maybe there arent any other vets in his area that were available or would see a cham....

Point isnt any of this however, its that the vet LIED. Again, big difference between "gonna be ok" and dead in 12 hours. Even still perhaps the vet might not have been able to tell the prognosis was that bad, but the clincher for me is when the vet ADMITS after the fact he really thought it wouldnt make it. Thats the part that gets me. That would get anybody.

[Matt_K]

My point was that he can't afford the Necro. but he's buying another animal.. If he can't afford the $50 for a Necro. how will he be able to FEED this new animal????????

[Collide]

$50 ish for a necropsy

$200-$300 for a panther nosy

??

[Artemis]

Well that is a valid point Matt, but isnt there a shelf life on the necropsy? Just because he wants a new one doesnt mean he's buying within 72 hours of the other one passing on.

Sorry to sound so harsh. I dont mean to be all combative. I guess its just because ive been there. Ive had the bad vet who lied to me, and I KNOW it wasnt my fault, necropsy or not. Thats my situation not PDs, and I dont know what other factors he could have taken to prevent the loss of his cham, but it seems he truly tried to do the best he could. Plus, what is he supposed to think after the vet tells him its gonna be fine? It really sucks to go to bed thinking its all gonna be ok, and wake up the next morning expecting your animal(s) to be perking up, and find them belly up instead.

Not trying to be a you-know-what, the lack of empathy on this round of posts got my dander up is all.

Makes for a rallying good discussion though.

Sorry if I lost it on ya guys- just sensitive to this particular issue.

[HeatherRose]

Thats my situation not PDs, and I dont know what other factors he could have taken to prevent the loss of his cham, but it seems he truly tried to do the best he could. Plus, what is he supposed to think after the vet tells him its gonna be fine? It really sucks to go to bed thinking its all gonna be ok, and wake up the next morning expecting your animal(s) to be perking up, and find them belly up instead.

It's very unfortunate that panther_dude had to go through this, and I can only imagine how much it would have sucked.

Not trying to be a you-know-what, the lack of empathy on this round of posts got my dander up is all.

Totally understandable, same goes for me and blaming vets :D...I hope everyone is at least flirting with the possibility that maybe, the vet just didn't know, as opposed to purposely lying. Can it not be possible?

Quote:
Originally posted by PuNkuPoNAsTAR
Don't go looking for random people to blame for your mistakes.


Sorry for the misunderstanding, this was meant to be generic, not aimed at Wade at all. I hope he can understand that. :D

We're all entitled to our opinions, of course. Sorry for the snappy comments, I totally understand how certain topics can rub someone the wrong way Artemis, trust me :D;)

Heather

[panther_dude]

Ok first of all. You guys are really taking this way to far. She is dead nothing you all can say now will bring her back. I cannot point the blame else where? well sure I can. FOr starters what makes you guys think that I took her to the same vet I had a bad experience with last time, she knew absolutly nothing about chameleons. Who would be stupid enough to use the same vet. MAn I dont know what you guys are thinking to post that. You must think im ******** or something.
Acouple things to say to sort this out and you can alll stop arguing with eachother:
1) Im not made of money, and it is exrtremely hard for me to borrow
2) I can say the first vet had a hand in killing her because: 1 I asked for a complete exam, including x rays and blood work. She refused to help me with that, infact the whole time she wouldnt even let me say anything, kept rambling on about something she knew nothing about. She was being very rough with her and loud, so all I wanted to do was get her the hell out of there, she still had a 45 min stressfull ride home.
3) If she had xrays at the first vet we would have been able to find out that for some reason her eggs werent calcifying, and could have been given something to help her i dont know.
4) The second vet came recomended from a freind and knew quite alot about chameleons, The fact is he knew she wasnt going to live without surgery ( he told me the next day) but decided intstead to give her an injection and send me on my way.
Tell me how he is not reasponsible for her death.
5) for the I dont know how many times ive said it already she was getting the proper supplements but just wasnt using them somehow.
i have to go to work ill be back latter to tell you how you are all so wrong.

[CarlC]

Hey PD,

First and foremost I think you might want to reconsider keeping Chameleons if money is an issue. So little is known about them that even the best Vets have issue's working with them. Treatments for Chams are never cheap and unless more necropsy's are done we will never know what cause's certain things to kill them. You learn so much more than cause of death from a necropsy. I'm not saying her reason for not calcifying the eggs was your fault. But wouldn't you want to know if something was wrong so you could make adjustments to your care so any future females don't have to go through the same thing.

I just think your money would be better spent on finding the cause of the non calcifying. This is not egg binding. The binding was caused by an already present problem.

About your Vet. It is your decision what the Vet does. You are the one paying. Yes the first Vet is someone I would not visit again but the second Vet could have easily been asked to do blood work and x-rays. I have yet to meet a reptile Vet. that would not counsult with another Vet if asked. Scott Stahl in Virginia is well known for working with other Vets. on Chameleon issue's. If I remember correctly I think the CIN even did a few articles on egg binding and egg calcification.

Also, I might be wrong on this, didn't you say you took her to the 2nd Vet after you saw crushed egg around her vent? If one of the eggs had ruptured for any of a numbers of reasons there would be very little that could be done even with surgery. Infection would set in very quick and make recovery from surgery even harder.

I am not trying to slam you but these are somethings that need to be considered. Right now you are working with an easy species. Alot of things are already known about succesfull care wether it be illness or breeding. What happens when you get the chance to work with lesser known species? I would want to be as prepared as possible. Again not a slam.

I can say I was once in the position you are but 25+ Chameleon species and hundreds of babies later I have learned alot and continue learning each day. Learning as much as possible should be the driving cause in your keeping these amazing creatures. We will all fail at some point from actions both controllable and uncontrollable and this must always be remembered.

Carl

[Matt_K]

Originally posted by panther_dude
1) Im not made of money, and it is exrtremely hard for me to borrow


Then how can you properly care for an animal??? I only ask because in another thread you stated you will be buying another $200-$300 animal.. And again, you said you can't afford the $50 Necro.. How will you afford to properly feed and light this animal???

Well that is a valid point Matt, but isnt there a shelf life on the necropsy? Just because he wants a new one doesnt mean he's buying within 72 hours of the other one passing on.

Actually, he has a post in another thread where he's already looking to find out when the next show is to buy another.. Now this may not be 72 hours later, but it's also not a couple months later where he could save up enough money to buy the animal and have money set aside for feeding the animal..

-Matt

[marisa]

I am not saying its anyones fault...

But personally, (again this is PERSONALLY, my opinion) if you cannot afford a 100 or 200 bucks at the drop of a dime for a vet visit, you shouldn't own exotics.

Yes not everyone is rich. But you do not buy something without thinking of possible future expenses wether it be a pet, or a car. What we do is figure out how many animals we have, figure out how much we have put away for any emergencies....THEN decide if we can afford another animal who might need an emergency visit or vet care. If we can put another drop in our savings bucket to ensure we can go to the vet at ANY time, then we get a new animal.

As animals, their medical problems don't understand waiting for paychecks or more money. They need our help to get them care they need WHEN they need it.

Again, myu opinion, and I am very sorry your Cham died. In the future a good idea is saving up a little fund for each pet you have in case of emergencies. It's quite easy to do even when you are broke, if you do it BEFORE buying each new pet. :)

Marisa

[Artemis]

PD honey, I know your hurting, but your attitude in that last post was no better than that of those you refute. I repeat, again, the vet did not KILL you cham. Its condition, or illness, is what killed it. I do not believe you recieved the best care and treatment that you could have from the first vet. You were lied to by the second vet. Those things are very wrong, and perhaps her death could have been prevented. Incompetence its not the same as murder, its more like negligence. Perhaps her death could have been prevented with better vetrinary attention, perhaps not. They didnt kill her, but they didnt save her either. I know the anger you feel about that fact, because thats what vet's are supposed to do, or at least give you an honest prognosis. But it isnt fair to say they killed her, though I certainly understand why you percieve it that way. I was VERY angry at the vet after I lost all my kittens. I understand how you feel very well.

The most valid point you made in your last post is that none of this will bring her back. I am sorry I opened a can of worms, but I do want to stress the point that not all vets are these flawless, infallible saints, either, and you were mishandled by them.

Regardless to anything, your hurt will heal in time.

Art

[panther_dude]

Wow people Im going through a little bit of a rough spot right now. Do i have to tell you every personal thing about my life so I dont get all these accusations. Why dont you think about these kinds of things before you post. Oh no thats right if I do try and tell you these things my posts get deleted,lol.
And secondly Carl C what is up man! I got an xray done at the second vet . And what are you talking about a ruptured egg on the vent? I dont know where the heck you got that from lol.
As for the other reptiles I was planning on purchasing yes I was planning, but because of money issues I did not go through with it. They were a gorgeouse pair of aussie water dragons. You dont even know how hard it was for me to tell my self I couldnt afford them right now, there was also an issue with space, if any of you have seen my cham inclosures you know I am one to think that bigger is better. And I would only have been able to housed them in the min. size enclosure. But what I am happy for them is that they are going to a reptile zoo in Brandon, MB. to be on display in a very big and elaborate enclosure. So when my money troubles are gone which will be a couple months or more, I will tlak to the owner about perchasing some babies.

I actually happen to have a pretty good paying job delivering medical supplies to hospitals and old people and such lol.
So the next time someone says they didnt have any money at the time, I hope you wont bve so quick to jump down their necks.

but thanks for all your concerns

wade

[meow_mix450]

Ok First i better say sorry for the harsh words that i have typed. I might have been a little jerk but everyone voices there own opinion. Words hurt. But if i have hurt you in any way i am sorry. This is my personailty i cant change that. I speak what i think, so what comes out of my mouth/hands is the truth and what i truly think.

Now everyone here has great points. But you also have to remember that this is only part of the story, you only heard this from PD now what if the vet was to post here, he would have a different story. But hes not. How do we know he said that it was going to die anyways, we dont. So we go with what PD says. The point? You cant really blame anyone. Cant blame Pd or the vet. It couldve of been anything. Its better to have a vet to see what really happened, but theres the money issue. We can all say that it had egg bound and the eggs were not calified probly. What is another possabilty is that the egg laying spot was not right. Who the heck knows?

All vets are different some just want money some just dont care. Vets always get blamed for. Why? Well someone brings in a pet that is sick and needs help, the vet trys there best to save it and wasnt possible. So emoctions start to run through the person because there pet has died that is really close. To let anger out is to blame someone, so the vet gets blamed and says you have killed the thing. The vet tried there best to help but was not sucessful. But its a bit hard to beleive that a vet would say that i knew it would die the next day. If he did, wouldnt he say sure ill do the surgery? If he was to do it, he would get more money, so why didnt he do it?Probly thought she might make it and it wasnt necssary.

Wade if you want to know why some of your post has been deleted is cause of many reasons. It was either cause of swearing or it was rude/unnessary. Dragondrop(sp) Has edited the post where i found it was rude, i did not know what you wrote but it was probly unnessary. So please read over what you write. Not being harsh but im just saying keep rude comments to your self and stop acusing of people for saying stuff they did not. Now i hope you have read my post and have read the first paragraph where i said sorry.

So what you read is what i think, and my own opinion and to what i think

Meow

[rocketjawa]

I have been reading this thread for a while and all I can say is WOW....

PD.. Its hard to lose a pet you love, everyone knows that.
But if you cant take peoples comments, or questions about your husbandry tactics, then DONT post here... If you were looking for a bunch of "Im soo sorry"s, you should tell your mom.

You say that noone here knows you so dont make assumptions, etc.. But THAT is our point, noone DOES know you, or your techniques, etc... Everything here was intended to help you until you got all defensive and started acting like a jerk. Good luck getting help NEXT time you want it.

Like I said, losing a pet sucks, but it doesnt give you the right to belittle people who are only asking you questions to try and help you solve the riddle of why your pet died.

[marisa]

OMG You need to RELAX! My post was friendly, and didn't mention you were at fault, then you arte claiming I jumped down your neck?

You either have money or you don't. Having money put away for emergencies means it always there. Period. Again not attacking you, but that's my whole point. A very steady supply of money is needed for reptiles, ecspecially CHAMS! big time.

But you don't seem to want to listen to anyone, even when they are being friendly and helpful like most of these people, including myself, were.

Marisa

[DragnDrop]

Some people take longer to understand than others, no matter how thorough, true or logical the explanations are. In this case, I think we've just about said all there is to say (and in some cases more was said than necessary but those posts have been removed).

We could discuss and debate this until the cows come home but it won't help speed up Wade's understanding of what we're trying to say. It's something that will take it's sweet time. Let's just leave it at that, leave him to his mourning and recovery.

There's a lot of good discussion here, but nothing else to be gained by leaving this post open, so to prevent further unacceptable outburst from certain people, this thread is closed.