Action being taken with pit bulls [Archive]

HeRpZ03

08-30-04, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by marisa
What they should license is ANYONE who wants to own a dog.

ANY dog can become a monster, and attack someone. Not just pits. But the general public likes to rid itself of anything they think is the problem, except themselves. The owners are as much to blame in ANY dog attack as a dog is.

Pit bulls have passed temperment tests as much or more often than so called "friendly" breeds. But low and behold, you never hear about a lab bite even though many many do in fact happen.

Marisa

Great post! the idea about everyone having to get a license makes sense, but the downside, dog owners would demand every "pet" owner to get a license. If we go down on the dog owners they're goin to take everyone else with them. But i wouldn't mind having to get a license, would rid the hobby of most those irresponsible owners. The only problem is, is it rational, achievable, and would it work?

meow_mix450

08-30-04, 04:59 PM

This here is an airline story
http://www.cbc.ca/story/news/national/2002/08/19/Consumers/air_dogs020819.html

Story im talkinga bout now
http://toronto.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=to_pitbulls20040830

Meow

leoncurrie

08-30-04, 05:10 PM

I think it is all how the animal is raised. A dog learns from example.

I also feel the it should be mandatory for dog owners to put there animals through obedience training, cutting back on accidental bite from dogs playing. In those classes you learn alot about how dogs interpet things.

Matt_K

08-30-04, 05:14 PM

They're not being banned, they're calling for a ban..

Many reptiles have already been by-lawed in many of OUR cities.. No matter what laws are made, they're going to be out there.. It's just unfortunate that they get into the wrong hands.. Every Pit Bull that I have met (a couple members on this site), including my own, have been well trained and very nice dogs that would sooner lick, than bite.. It's ashame they have such a bad rep..

I find it hard to believe that this man was just walking down the street and the dogs decided to attack him.. Something else must have taken place to provoke them.. Also, the witnesses claimed to have beaten the dogs with sticks and even as far as choke the dogs, why were they not bit?? If these two dogs were so evil and viscious, why did they not turn on the people who were actually harming them??

It's very unfortunate that this had to take place, the sad thing is, the good owners will be the ones that suffer..

~Suntiger~

08-30-04, 05:15 PM

Amen to that leoncurrie, marisa too -- as usual, this just goes back to the damn humans. Bah

V.hb

08-30-04, 05:17 PM

Just out of curiousity Marissa, where does your information come from regarding lab bites and pit attacks?

All dogs can become monsters, of course. But pits were bred for aggressive nature, making them more prone to be monsters in the wrong hands.. Once again, its not the animals fault, but the dumbass owners that shouldnt own a goldfish let alone a dog, or a pitbull.

Matt_K

08-30-04, 05:26 PM

Here are a couple links to check out..

http://www.atts.org/

and

http://www.badrap.org/rescue/myths.cfm

Here's some results from the ATTS (The American Temperament Test Society)..

tested.passed.failed.percent

Staffordshire Bull Terrier 55.46.9.83.6%
Beagle 55.43.12.78.2%
Bull Terrier 49.44.5.89.8%
Chihuahua 33.23.10.69.7%
Chow Chow 87.60.27.69.0%
Collie 761.601.160 79.0%
Golden Retriever 637.530.107.83.2%
Shih Tzu 36.27.9.75.0%

madison.s

08-30-04, 05:39 PM

I agree with Matt_k. I own a pit bull that i took from someone eles that did not take care of her and she would much rather lick you then bite you and there are no bad dogs just bad owners. I own a rotti that is 6 years old almost 7 and she has never done anything close to biting and it is because she was rasied right. people think that they can have a dog and not take the time to train them. oh by the way a chicuaua(spelt wrong i am sure)but never the less they bite more then pits or rottis bite but they dont do alot od damage. thats the problem. my daughter was bite by a small dog and the humane socioty did nothing about it because it was a small dog but if mine did it she would be put down.again it is the owners not the dog. the guy in the story was just walking the dogs for someone eles and they started to attack him. and people around there are saying the dogs were not very nice and neither was the owner so there is the problem.

beth wallbank

08-30-04, 05:42 PM

I own and breed bandogges, and with anyone that has ever been to my home, my dogs are all big pussy cats, pitts, and pitt x neo mastiffs. They have ALL been raised with human contact and no corporal punishment. They respect that and return the kindness and gentleness that we give them. There are only bad dog owners, not bad dogs. Any breed of dog can be a bad dog, pitts just have the capability of making it known more so than other breeds.

Linds

08-30-04, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by V.hb
Just out of curiousity Marissa, where does your information come from regarding lab bites and pit attacks?

All dogs can become monsters, of course. But pits were bred for aggressive nature, making them more prone to be monsters in the wrong hands..

Actually I forget where I read it, but apparently lab bites are in the top three reported bites, as well as there is some sort of thing involving home owners/liability with them, and I'm sure there are many more that go unreported, due to their popularity and likely lessly serious bite. Some dogs have a harder bite than others, which means their bteis are likely to be preorted over the others.

That asides, while pits are bred for aggression towards other dogs, they are bred for their loyalty towards people. They weren't bred to fight people.

V.hb

08-30-04, 05:45 PM

I guarentee most people on this site that own pits dont walk up and down streets trying to intimidate people with them. Its the owners that do so that give pits bad reputations. I read an article in the star today, an ignorant pit bull owner was compared to a 5 year old with a loaded gun. You have to KNOW how to handle, and train the dog.

Is there any type of documentation on the net in regards to difficulty levels for each breed? Meaning, training etc? Still.. Its still the morons that get dogs to look tough that ruin the name.

V.hb

08-30-04, 05:46 PM

btw linds, i think its quite difficult to label a lab as being more prone to bite than a pit. Think about it, people buy labs for kids, kids do stupid things to dogs and get bit, nothing to do with the temperment of the dog, its called driving the dog mad. Once again, the owner isnt taking proper precautions..

madison.s

08-30-04, 05:53 PM

wait a minute all dogs can and will bite if that is the way they are raised, again i have a 6 year old rotti and she has had her ears pulled,her tail pulled my son at i year old laying on her and she is a suchy baby, she will bark at the door but once you come in she is a such(but that is her job ) to let us know people are there. again my daughter was bit by a small dog and nothing was done because of it size. which is sooooo not right.

Matt_K

08-30-04, 06:01 PM

It's also the individual dog.. Just like you can walk down the street and accidently bump into 10 people.. 9/10 of those people may just keep walking but there's ALWAYS that one person who will confront you on it..

My Cousin has an Akita (Large Breed, Bad Rep) and anyone can do whatever they want to that dog, including ride on it's back.. It will just sit there cause it LOVES the attention.. Someone else's Akita might not be so nice..

Like Adam said, there are too many people out there that are owning Pits, Rotti's and Boxers to name a few, just for a status.. They have them as a sense of security and intimidation.. We'll be having this debate as long as these people are able to own a dog..

Some of the blame should also be put on the breeders and the shelters.. I just recently adopted a Pit from a local shelter, they didn't do an ounce of a background check.. They saw the money and were happy with that.. Not even so much as a question to whether or not I have ever owned a dog..

ChokeOnSmoke

08-30-04, 06:05 PM

First I love pitbulls, they are beautiful dogs. I see nothing wrong with owning them but...
I have to agree with V.hb. Pitbulls were bred to to fight. I dont think they should be banned it would do nothing. Maybe a liscensing is a good idea but I think the people who actually got it would be the responsible people in the first place and the irresponsible people just wouldn't get it. Even if they were to ban them there are many other powerful dogs irresponsible dog owners could easily get.
Labs being in the top three bites might have something to do with them being the one of the top two most popular dogs breeds for almost 15 years. That being said, a lab in an idiots is just as just as bad as a pitbull. The only difference being a pitbull attack in theory is going to be much worse.

dave68

08-30-04, 06:05 PM

Have got to agree with Matt K and lizlady and whoever else stuck up for pit bulls, and as Mariisa said anydog can bite. I know from personal experiences and 2 different dogs I'm been more afraid for my kids to be around golden retreivers of all dogs, of course every dog is diff. and has a diff. story but I completely 100% trust my pitty with my kids, my god they walk all over him drag him around with a leash and he still licks them to death and insists on the foot of their bed be his bed! Anyways just my thought...By the way Matt K those were great statistics quite interesting and easy to get, Thanks.

madison.s

08-30-04, 06:08 PM

wow, they usually ask a million questions but i guess like you said they seen the money $$$$$. both of my dogs are sucks and love my kids and even love the reptiles and snakes and ofcourse the bird.LOL. it really is a bad thing because they are great companions and great with kids too. i know someone that was bit by a pit many years ago and it was her fault because she was playing with the dog with a stick and she put the stick up to her face and the dog tried to get it and missed. they were going to put the dog down and she frecked out and told then it was not the dogs fault and they never did put the dog down and the dog lived happily ever after and so did she(will with a small scar).

leoncurrie

08-30-04, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by V.hb
You have to KNOW how to handle, and train the dog.

Is there any type of documentation on the net in regards to difficulty levels for each breed? Meaning, training etc? Still.. Its still the morons that get dogs to look tough that ruin the name.

This is my point with the obedience training. It should be Mandatory, regardless of the species!

madison.s

08-30-04, 06:22 PM

well i will always live by my dogs, she(my rotti) has saved the life of my son twice now and she deserves respect and love that she gets. I never had to take her to any classes but it took lots of time and treats but she is great. she sees other dogs and she just looks at them and walks away unless she is told to go play,and thats how it should be that way they know. my pit is still very young and still learning the rules of the house but is learning fast. here is a picture of her doing whatshe does best stealing my chair when i get up.LOL.

DiamondDave

08-30-04, 06:29 PM

Any breed can and will bite if provoked, the difference is the severity of bites. From what I understand Cockers bite more than any other breed but a bite from one is hardly life threatening. Pits were bred for their aggressiveness, no question, and being a fierce and loyal breed is part of their popularity. I don't think that I would be as comfortable as some of you who have children and pits but that's me and is no indication that I disapprove of it. I would just be too concerned about the "what ifs".

BTW, I have a Shar-Pei/Pit mix and wouldn't give him up for the world, but if he ever bites someone he's gone.

Just my opinions, no offense to anyone.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/DedEye/Dozer-Vigilance.jpg

madison.s

08-30-04, 06:39 PM

DiamondDave, nice picture, he is cute but he is still a pit mix. right???? i really believe that it is the way the dog is raised and ofcourse the way the parents are. we had a rotti male and had to get rid of him becuase he was mean and i guess i should have none better,the mon was not very nice but the owner said it was becasue she was a new mom and that was far from the truth. my rotti just had babies 1 1/2 weeks ago and she is not mean at all. here is her picture.

madison.s

08-30-04, 06:39 PM

sorry double post sorry guys.

Kimo

08-30-04, 06:51 PM

ok time for a bit of education here on pitties,

first off, this dog was orginally designed for bear baiting! you got it people to hunt bears, and after a law that was passed in britain to ban hunting of bears, people turned to pit fights, putting one pitty against another, and im sorry these dogs were not bred for aggression, they were bred for their endurance, their "gameness" for those of you whom don't understand it's their ability to keep going in a fight, regardless of the fact they may be mortally wounded (ie. internal organs dragging behind them). Now in regards to their aggression...this is nonsence these dogs were selectively bred so that agression would NOT be a problem. to prove this point, during pit fights if the opposite owner couldn't handle the others pittbull, it was immediately put down, and the same goes for breeding, if say a male pitty bit their owner, or anyone else, it, along with all of its pups were also immediately destroyed. (keep in mind this type of selective breeding stopped about 30 years ago) the problem with the breed today is these "backyard breeders" who think it's cool to have a "tuff" dog. and anyone who labels this breed as agressive...well your about as well informed as a kindergarten kid, go do the research on this breeds history, cause to date their isn't a breed out their that can claim the title of "loyal till death" like the American PittBull Terrier can...

sorry if i came off rude to anyone, im just sick and tired of this breed being bashed, do the research before you judge!

"Proud Owner Of A PureBred "Game" American PitBull Terrier"
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/3646Havoc-med.jpg

Josh

marisa

08-30-04, 07:12 PM

My stats on that came from the same thing matt posted. The website is one he showed me awhile ago and it was REALLY interesting.

I have almost the opposite problem with my dog. Because people refuse to get in their heads that all dogs, regardless of size or looks CAN bite....they often approach my small Jack Russell without even asking. She is friendly, but on a whole the breed is excitable, extremely loyal and sometimes over protective, big dog in little body syndrom, and she can nip because of this at times. I don't feel safe with young children running and screaming near here, or being rough, or even approaching her without asking. But because I have a small breed, people do it ALL the time!

It's sad really. People generalize to both extremes, constantly.

Marisa

madison.s

08-30-04, 07:43 PM

you are right people do not think that small dogs bite and that is the problem. I love my pit and rotti and do trust my kids around them and they have always proven me right,they are amasing with the kids and even with my kittens(go figure) i think people should reaaly llok at the situation before judging. pits and rottis are the best around kids because i find them very talerante and loving. I love all dogs big or small but hate when people say that small dogs are not mean and dont bite and again when my daughter was bit the humane socity did nothing becuase it was a small dog and a small bite.

ChokeOnSmoke

08-30-04, 07:58 PM

CamHanna how have you been bit by so many dogs. Do you run around with steaks taped to your body? No seriously? Have you had any bad wounds? I'm 22 and yet to bitten once and I doubt I ever will.
Kimo, intresting info. Bear baiting isn't the same as a hunting dog "treeing" a bear though. Its a bunch of dogs attacking a bear thats restrained for entertainment purposes.

lostwithin

08-30-04, 08:02 PM

Well this is a good topic, cant pass it up. I myself have never dealt with a pit bull, but i would have too say that ANY animal can turn mean , and it is normally the fault of the owner in some way. Pit Bulls were breed too be strong and potently dangerous dogs, But MANY breeds were.
Pit bulls just happen too be the one that has made the news. And once something like that starts the press will elaborate. Any other dog attacks wouldn’t make the news ,but when the media puts " Pit Bull attack" they catch peoples interest. Because they have drawn a picture of a monstrous animal.

It is no different then man eating anacondas , or the horribly dangerous sharks. the media hypes it up to sound horrible because most people wont take the time too look for the facts. If it sounds and looks dangerous it makes the news over and over.

Devon

crucified

08-30-04, 08:15 PM

i didnt read much of the post of what ppl said just cuz i am too damn lazy..
anyways i think its crap to ban a breed.. kill BSL...
you cant ban one breed and let another one wander around... if you ban one dog.. you ban them all... sure american pit bull terriers have a bad rap... sure their blood line and purpose of being around has been distorted... if you buy from a crap breeder... bad those people.. dont support them.. with their fighting pits and guard dog pits.. american pit bull terrier were never meant to attack ppl.. old standards claim that any american pit bull terrier that has bitten a human was instantly put down and was to not have that bred into the blood line... show dog pits are excellent dogs as their instinct to fight has been distorted so they arent aggressive and can be entered in show... amstaffs and staffy bulls are pit bulls (pit bull being a group of a breed of dogs... pit bull also refering to fighting dog.. as the correct term for the breed is american pit bull terrier.. cuz any dog can be a 'pit bull' if you toss it into a ring.. both are just bait dogs.. and no i am not for fighting dogs.. i am very well against it) as well.. just more mellow and not used as fighting dogs.. and i dont know where i am going here.. anyways... labs and retrievers attack more humans than american pit bull terriers do... people just dont want to hear about americans best family pet ( being a lab and retriever) attacking people.. so they claim that monster attack is an american pit bull terrier when they arent always american pit bull terrier.. or rotts.. or dobermans.. or german shepherds.. etc... its just a big media hype... we all need a nightmare and monster terrorizing the news.. i have heard of labs almost killing ppl out here and they dont make the news.. a pit looks at someone the wrong way.. front page... the alaskan malamute is responsible for the most human deaths yearly.. and a chihuahua is more prone to attack a human than an american pit bull terrier is.. so yes.. i think banning a breed is crap.. cuz it gets you nowhere but a mob of angry pit lovers trying to save the breed and give it a good name as best as they can.. its just the few bad ones.. or mistakes that set us back 20 steps for every step we get ahead... ok i hope this made sense.. cuz i dont want to read it back myself.. hahaha..

madison.s

08-30-04, 08:18 PM

I think everyones opinion here is good. I just wish people would stop the madness. Just because a dog was once breed for something does not mean that the dogs are still going to be like that. It is all in the breeding and the owners,the dog only learns what it is tought just like a kid. thats what i think anyway. but if you have a bad breeder then that could be the reason to.

crucified

08-30-04, 08:27 PM

in the case of apbt's.. its not just what they are taught... there are generations of breeding that have planted the instinct in them to fight... you may have a great puppy... very socialable with other dogs.. once it matures at 3-4 yrs old.. its instincts to fight might kick in then you have a dog that cant be socialized... dont get me wrong... i love apbts.. im pro-apbts... but... it is the ugly truth about them... most dogs have an ugly truth about the breed... socialization is the best thing an apbt can get... as it may not have the instincts kick or it may just be so used to socializing.. it wont want to fight... but as with any dogs.. apbts especially.... they should always be monitored no matter what.. if they are playing with other dogs.. even if they are the most well behaved dogs.. cuz something could case'em to take the rough play one step farther even if its not intended too.. . but all precautions and safe play should be placed on all dogs.. just not all dogs are instinctivly bred to kill another dogs... and have the strength at that.. remember the pit bull group is the only breed with weight pull competitions.. and those little 45 lb pit bulls do pull well over 2000lbs.. and other breeds cant..

DiamondDave

08-30-04, 08:31 PM

I stand corrected, myths abound.

I do honestly believe my dog (pic above)would protect my wife at all costs. So would my other which is some other sort of mutt also, funny thing is the shar-pei cost me ALOT of money. I had the tattoo of the word sucker removed shortly thereafter. LOL

Well, interesting topic either way. Nice to see some restraint with such a volatile subject.

DD

madison.s

08-30-04, 08:38 PM

I agree but having said that if you dont teach then to be mean then the instince is not as strong but i know that that is not anyways true either(i know i just fight with myself) but any dog can turn at any time for any reason but i still trust my dogs and if they ever bite anyone i would not have them. all dogs big or small can bite or kill. in the wild they live in packs and fight that way and kill that way so yes they all have that in them. but again i still trust my dogs with my kids more then i trust some people with them. my rotti has proven herself in my family as she has saved my sons life twice, and the first time she was only about 5 months old and with us for maybe 2 months,she is and will always be my baby girl and to this day i say without her my son would(no joke) be died. and no small dog would have been able to do what she did that day.LOL.

Ryan23

08-30-04, 09:34 PM

Being the owner of a Bandogge( Pitt X ) myself I am very much pro-Pitt or other Bull breeds. Yes Pitts were bred to be dog aggressive with high prey drive and that can't be helped, some dogs with proper socialization do become good with other animals, others just don't. I am lucky that my pup was well socialized and is good with not only other dogs but also my 10 week old kitten that sleeps curled up under his chin most of the time.

I have an interesting fact about their aggressiveness towards humans........this is directly from a friend who trains police dogs........Pittbulls are very very rarely if ever used as police dogs because of their reluctance to bite people. A dog that refuses to take down a suspect when needed is useless to the police force. This comes directly from a professional who has tried this in the field many times and has found Pittbulls to be too friendly towards humans to be of any use to the police. Pittbulls being used as search and rescue dogs or drug detection dogs are much more common as they are very intelligent and eager to please their masters.

http://ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/5128bullinsprinkler.jpg

crucified

08-30-04, 09:55 PM

ryan.. that is correct.. ive heard that before.. forgot to make mention... the way to train a pit bull to become a guard dog is to lock it up in a basement for 1 -2 yrs without seeing anyone but you... it knows nothing.. and those how it becomes aggressive.. its just poor socialization.. they do get spooked easily...
but what do i know.. haha.. not much :)

Linds

08-30-04, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by V.hb
btw linds, i think its quite difficult to label a lab as being more prone to bite than a pit. Think about it, people buy labs for kids, kids do stupid things to dogs and get bit, nothing to do with the temperment of the dog, its called driving the dog mad. Once again, the owner isnt taking proper precautions..

I never said a lab was more prone to bite than a pit, I said the breed alone is likely to be responsible for a larger number of bites (not necessarily reported). There are probably more labs in the general population since they are labelled a 'family dog', and yes, kids are always pulling tails and doing things to provoke them. I also said I believe that a lower percentage of lab bites would be reported than pits, due to the severity of the bite, as well as their unfortunate reputation.

beth wallbank

08-30-04, 10:30 PM

these are two of my babies...........pitt x neo and pure pit...
These two have been raised with children and tiny kittens. I know that if someone were ever to come into my home unexpected, they would never come out un scaved. Friends of ours can come and go as pleased. It truly is the owner that relects the dogs temperment. You mess with ANY dog regardless of breed or size, you are creating a ticking time bomb.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/66deisel_and_rogue-med.JPG

Ryan23

08-31-04, 12:08 AM

being bit while riding a bike is a huge sign of a lack of exposure and socialization for a dog.....dogs need to be exposed to as many things as possible at a very early age so they learn not to fear anything because fear is the cause of most bites. My pup can be walking down a sidewalk and have people on bikes, a bus, a motorcycle or anything go right by him without even looking up.

Any dog that is trained and socialized properly from an early age and doesn't have questionable genetics(unstable parents or from puppy mills) and is cared for properly will be a good dog regardless of breed. The responsibility falls 100% on the shoulders of the owner in all cases, whether it is people mistreating their dogs or simply not understanding the nature of a breed like the Pitbull and their special requirements. A dog that is proven to be aggressive to dogs can still be a good pet as long as steps are taken to control its situation at all times. A dog that is aggressive to humans has usually been programed that way in one way or another and although it's sad dogs like that can't be allowed to have the opportunity to harm people. On the other hand the owners of such dogs shouldn't be allowed to put both other dogs or other people into those situations ever again and that is what's missing from most of these cases of dog attacks.

spidergecko

08-31-04, 07:50 AM

It's fine to blame the owners for improperly socializing their animals when they bite but if I, or someone I knew, was at the recieving end of that mouth, the last thing I would be thinking is, "It's too bad they didn't socialize their dog."

Matt_K

08-31-04, 07:56 AM

Very good post Ryan!!

I see 100's of different breeds of dogs everyday while working.. I come into direct contact with many of them.. I can honestly say that the most calm of all the dogs I come across are the so called, 'mean' breeds.. Rottis, Boxers and Pits. There are atleast 2 of each on my mail route and when I get to their houses, I can count on them either just watching to see what I do, or coming towards me with their tail wagging.. On the other hand, of the dozens of labs, collies, JRT's and even dalmations that I come across, atleast 4 of each breed will come running towards the car at top speed barking as loud as they possibly can..

To date, I have had no issues with any of the dogs, aside from a St. Bernard that felt his family didn't need to get mail that day..

Another issue I have is this.. Why is it okay for people who own, Labs, Huskies, Beagles and the likes to have their dogs off a leash??? On two seperate occasions now I have had a dog cross the the road and sidewalk to get at me and my Pit.. The owners of both dogs have made comments about watching MY dog, meanwhile, my dogs on a harness and LEASH.. If that was my dog running the streets without a leash, Im pretty damn sure that I would be getting a visit from Animal Control or worse..

-Matt

Cruciform

08-31-04, 10:49 AM

Well, our lawsuit against the landlord regarding the incident with the pitbull will be drawing to a close soon, but the thing is I don't necessarily want to see the breed banned either.

Like any of our pets, if the owner is qualified and puts the time into it, there's a very good chance the animal will never be a problem for anyone.

But as a check against irresponsible or lazy owners, I'd like to see the laws actually treat an attack by a dog as an attack by the owner, with the same jail time. Fines and killing the dogs are not nearly the penalties that the owner should face. Not only are they putting the public at risk with thier ignorance, they increase the suffering of the animals.

All dogs (or any pet that runs unleashed) should have to pass a socialization and obedience test, and if they fail the owner should have to take a mandatory course to get them up to speed or lose the animal.

Just like our snakes, I'd rather see some annoying regulations in place than the outright bans that so many cities seek.

BTW, as a side note, CBC radio was talking about pit bull attacks a month ago and they had an animal control rep on there who basically said what some people here are arguing: That it comes down to the owners, and even though pit bull attacks tend to be horrific in nature, there are many other such similar attacks each and every day that we don't hear about because the media doesn't jump on them. Last year a pekinese attacked and killed a toddler and there wasn't even a ripple about it in the news. That really suprised me to hear about that.

Samba

08-31-04, 11:21 AM

I haven't read all your replies, but the ones I have looked over definately peaked my interest. I am the owner of a pitt (I prefer to use the term "Am-Staffie" since there's less of a stigma) and shepard mix. Sadie carries all the tell-tale signs of the breed in her, from her short, stocky and well-muscled body, to the broad head, short muzzle and those intuitive big brown eyes... I'll be darned if she isn't the sweetest dog out there, and she shouldn't be.

Before I got her she was property in someone's backyard.. an ornament, I guess. She was rarely fed, never walked, never socialized, but is fearless nontheless. She eagerly plays, but I've noticed a few quirks about her since she's joined my family.

Nipping: Sometimes gets out of hand when playing. She'll go for arms, ankles and anything in between. I know her goal isn't to hurt, but I'm afraid someday she will. Right now, we reinforce the "No-Nipping" policy by simply walking away if she gets too wound up, and shouting "NO!" if her mouth touches us. Still too soon to see if this is working...

"Food Aggression": Commonly found in dogs who have been starved, the aggression is usually aimed at the threat, or competitor who threatens to steal food. Sadie does not exibit this aggression towards humans, as I can pet her and walk nearby while she eats with no reaction. Sadie does, however, attack her tail!! She spots it in her perpheral view and growls... if the tail doesn't 'listen' she'll launch an attack, which is amusing, but also concerns me about her mental health. The tone of growling and barking is serious and not playful. Just to make sure the tail itself isn't the problem, but I have found no sign of trauma, mites, ticks, fleas, etc. (I will be consulting a behavoralist about this).

Since Sadie is still young I think most of her quirks are just the result of being a puppy, however I keep an eye out for changes.

Guess I got a little off-topic there... as for the breed bans... it's ignorant. It'll only force pitt lovers and abusers underground. Not only that but animals that may need vet attention may not recieve it simply because their owners are fearful of being 'caught'. I think a license-type situation might be effective, but probably wouldn't be a good long-term program. The tools we need to use are education. Breed bans are the same as racisim in my book, and that's just not acceptable under any circumstances today. If people are educated about this and other breeds they can make wise decisions regarding ownership and association. There is no easy solution to this, and I wish the supporters of "Breed Bans" would see this. They will NOT be removing the problem by inacting a ban...

zappaguy

08-31-04, 11:34 AM

ok my .02 worth...i have been a dog owner for well over 35 years. as much as i love all dogs the big problem in have seen and noticed and actually made notes over the years is the vast majority of dogs i see in my neighborhood off the leash and running around and not listening to commands from the owner have been pit bulls. not to say there have not been others but it was way too 1 sided. with the pit's owner yelling the most foul things to his/her dog up to including 'just kick it in the head,it's just a pup'. as for licensing who is going to do it+regulate it and how do you enforce this? some way has to be figured out on how to enforced the leash law and dispose of the bad owners.

Samba

08-31-04, 11:47 AM

There is currently a ban in Detroit, and this ban is enforced, just like a licensing issue could be enforced. The same amount of man power (I'd imagine) and effort would go into enforcement of a policy that allows people to keep 'aggressive' breeds. Currently, all pits in Detroit are confiscated and euthanized no matter their disposition.

As for animals off-leash, I believe a majority of regions have leash-laws, and people need to recognize and obey them. Having a dog running is a serious threat to itself, motorists and pedestrians, not to mention that's it's also not considerate.

Personally, I think the owners of all dogs need 'training classes' before ownership can be granted. =)

spidergecko

08-31-04, 12:46 PM

The man who was recently attacked is just one man but I'm sure his family (and he) would have happily accepted the ban had they known he would be half eaten in his future. Isn't one person enough? We all say, "Well pitbulls aren't the only ones that do it." Well does that mean all dogs larger than this particular size should be banned as well? Maybe that is the real choice - a ban on all dogs larger than so-and-so kilograms. That way, no person will have to worry about being killed/maimed by a dog. The exception is small dogs with young children of course, but that's akin to letting your kid come in contact with any of the normal household hazards.

Just a thought.

marisa

08-31-04, 12:56 PM

"Isn't one person enough? We all say, "Well pitbulls aren't the only ones that do it." Well does that mean all dogs larger than this particular size should be banned as well?"

Or how about we put airbag on tips of pencils so no one accidently pokes their eye out???

I mean when will it end? One day we will all be living in individual bubble compartments so no one can ever ever get hurt. It's OUT of control. Poeple get hurt, dogs bite, cats bite, snakes get loose, THINGS HAPPEN....the problem is when people stop taking resposibility for their actions and instead want to "hurt proof" the entire world around them.

Marisa

spidergecko

08-31-04, 01:08 PM

The difference is I don't have to worry about a pencil attacking me in the park. We have already decided that all dogs can and do bite. Big dogs can overpower and kill, pencils can't.

No offense but if banning large dogs reduces the number of maimings/deaths by dogs (and we've already accepted there are many that go unreported) I don't see what the problem is. Is someone's right to keep a large dog more important than someone's right to walk down the street in safety?

marisa

08-31-04, 01:29 PM

Yes but banning large dogs will not solve ANY problems. Then you have MILLIONS of large breeds with no homes, taxing on the already STRETCHED humane society....then whats next? banning 4 wheelers because someone got in an accident? Banning booze because some idiot drove home drunk? I will not have my rights taken away from me because a few morons don't know how to raise an dog or take a cab home. That's not fair. But I see where you are coming from.

Basically there is no answer. Dogs will always bite here and there. People will always keep dogs. I for one am not afriad to walk down the street, and at this point pit bulls aren't running around in packs ripping people apart, so I still feel pretty safe. :D

Marisa

Cruciform

08-31-04, 01:33 PM

And what if all your herps are banned due to bites, possible salmonella, etc. etc.?

While I don't have any fondness for dogs bred for the purpose of killing, it's bad news for everyone when blanket bans go into effect.

Make the pet owners COMPLETELY responsible for the actions of their animals. If your dog shits on the sidewalk and you don't clean it up, you get the exact same charges as if you'd dropped your pants and done it there yourself.

Dog attempts to kill someone? Attempted murder.

I remember the "good old days" when being drunk at the wheel was actually an excuse people could use when they killed someone in their car, as a drunk "wasn't responsible for their own actions."

It's about time people started accepting responsibility for ALL their actions, including owning animals they can't or won't control.

--edit: you're/your spelling error, no content change--

marisa

08-31-04, 01:45 PM

"It's about time people started accepting responsibility for ALL their actions, including owning animals they can't or won't control."

I wish I could afford to get part of this statement on a billboard ALL ACROSS North America....."It's about time people started accepting responsibility for ALL their actions" is a line many MANY people need to memorize.

Marisa

Cruciform

08-31-04, 02:35 PM

I fired off a letter to the London Free Press for the hell of it, and suggest everyone who feels strongly against blanket bans do the same with their local publication. Remember, it doesn't matter if you dislike pit bulls, these bans will simply assist others in slamming the door in the face of the herp community as well. Legislate responsibility, not intolerance.

--copy of email follows--
With the recent furor over dog attacks, I have seen people arguing both sides of the issue, and despite having had problems with aggressive dogs in the past I in no way endorse the idea of a ban on any breed of animal. It is not the animals who are at fault, but the owners. Many people purchase pets knowing little to nothing about their husbandry, temperament, or medical needs, and are unwilling to take on the responsibility that comes with these pets. Whether it's a dog or any other animal it should be the owners who accept the final responsibility, and as such, I would prefer to see the existing bans on animals removed, and the considerations of future bans scrapped. Instead, put into place a law that makes owners responsible for the actions of their pets. If an animal does grievous harm to another, in the eyes of the law it should be treated as though the owner took that action against another. As an owner of reptiles, which are often feared and maligned by people who know absolutely nothing about them, I see responsible owners treated inappropriately as criminals due to the actions of a minority that encompasses only the smallest fraction of the community.

My challenge to the cities and the provinces is to lift these ridiculous bans and put into place laws that actually reflect the diversity of pets and pet owners in the cities, and encourage responsibility rather than forcing people to go underground with their animals.

Also, as is evident by the bylaws passed in many towns, those passing the laws into existence have no idea of what they are regulating. Harmless reptiles such as garter snakes, corn snakes, and ball pythons are banned in London and St. Thomas by virtue of their size alone due to a restriction of 60cm on snakes. Pit bulls are covered extensively in bylaws across the country, yet the number of injuries dealt by poodles and dalmations dwarf that number, and people keep buying dalmations for their kids. There is a saying that "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" when a person commits a crime that they are unaware of. Well, ignorance is no excuse for law either, and unless our city councils take the time to educate themselves on matters first, they should stick to letting the province decide how to regulate and prosecute owners of rogue animals.

Sincerely,
Mike Wagner

DiamondDave

08-31-04, 04:46 PM

I see where you are coming from but as has been stated "It's not the breed, it's the owners", At least those horrible owners won't have a hundred plus pound weapon at thier disposal...whatever "large breed" it may be.

I am really torn as I don't think banning them will change anything. It would only be effective if the authorities knew where they could find them. Obedience training is a great idea but I dont' see alot of people shelling out that kind of scratch for a dog they'll leave tied out in their yard. (Which BTW, really pisses me off). Anyway There is no lack of good ideas and smart people here maybe one of you has the solution.

leoncurrie

08-31-04, 04:53 PM

Can anyone give me an opinion on making it a law that if you own a dog, you have to attend obedience training and pass the course. I really feel that this would be very benificial.

Matt_K

08-31-04, 05:04 PM

So, if they do ban Pit Bulls, since that's the only breed they're tossing around now.. What makes them think for one second that people aren't going to start owning Rotti's and training them in the manner they trained (or didn't train) their Pits?? And when they ban the Rotti's they'll start to use Boxers, then Akita and the list goes on and on and on..

WRX

08-31-04, 05:43 PM

This may have already been covered, but ALL dogs could be lawed into wearing a muzzle when in public. Also, ANY unleashed / muzzled dog's owner could be fined heavily if found in non compliance.
Thirdly, the owner of any dog that attacks / harms someone should be charged with assault / battery / manslaughter....whatever the case may be. This would probably weed out the "Tough Guy" dog owners that have the Pit Bull, or whatever, as an ego booster.

BT

leoncurrie

08-31-04, 06:12 PM

The problem with using a muzzle out in public is, Some people have dogs trained in personal protection. (just to name one reason) These dogs aren't much good if they are unable to protect there owners.

Rhonda

08-31-04, 06:17 PM

After reading these posts I'd just like to add my 2 cents worth! First off I don't really think we should ban the breed. I think it's the owners of dogs who has bite that should be banned from owning any dogs. I truly believe many(I'm not saying all) people who purchase pitbulls, rottis, dobermans etc do so as a status. To say look how tough I am! A well socialized puppy who has not been abused or made to purposely show aggression is not likely to attack anyone regardless of the breed. We always had a doberman growing up and yes he was protective of us but he never bit anyone!

leoncurrie

08-31-04, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by Shad0w
OK... so how many of you herpers would accept someone walking down the street with a large retic or african rock, or better yet a nice hot species like a gaboon viper and exposing it to people?

Would you consider such a person irresponsible?

I would.

So whats the difference with dog owners?
Its time dog owners act responsible and condemn people that keep such animals and expose them to the public in ANY way. Face it, pitbulls were bred to express desired features for the purpose they were made, for fighting and attacking...

Furthermore, Im sick and tired of dog owners saying that the public just does not understand the breed!

The public does not have to understand the breed, no dog should be a danger to ANYONE.. if it is, it should be considered a weapon.
The public has the RIGHT to safety period!

The maiming and attacking needs to be stopped.
Thank god it looks like this breed will finally be banned as they are in winnipeg, london, germany, etc....

I'm not sure what your point is. You said:

OK... so how many of you herpers would accept someone walking down the street with a large retic or african rock, or better yet a nice hot species like a gaboon viper and exposing it to people?

Would you consider such a person irresponsible?

I would.

So whats the difference with dog owners?

I think that is what the majority of people in this thread are saying. It is the owners who are guilty... not the brred of dog. But then you say:

The public does not have to understand the breed, no dog should be a danger to ANYONE.. if it is, it should be considered a weapon.
The public has the RIGHT to safety period!

The maiming and attacking needs to be stopped.
Thank god it looks like this breed will finally be banned as they are in winnipeg, london, germany, etc....

Well it's not the breeds fault. It is how it is raised by the owner... you shouldn't the breed because of stupid people. If your going to attack the problem... go straight to the source.

leoncurrie

08-31-04, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Shad0w
Like i said.. this breed attracts the wrong kind of people

Yes but if you ban a certain breed, those same people that are causing the problems now will just go on to other brres of dogs. shepards, dobermans, ect.....

leoncurrie

08-31-04, 09:25 PM

oh no... I understand what your saying, but what i'm saying is .... if you ban pitbulls, those same owners will just go out and get another breed of dog and raise it the same way as they did the pitbull. As a result... you now have a different breed of dog attacking people.

madison.s

08-31-04, 09:37 PM

Personally i think it is no different for people to ban a breed or kill a breed. I mean if they ban the pits then no more pits(all gone) the next breed to go is rotti,then labs,then who knows,it does not make any sense.what are they going to do take all the pits and kill them.wow thats smart. So what they are saying is if 3 red people go and hurt someone eles then all the red people should be ban or killed then. ( no pun intended)

leoncurrie

08-31-04, 09:38 PM

Well that would be a good start... and then have them under go some sort of program to educate them on dog behaviour.

PaulBar

08-31-04, 09:54 PM

Pit Bulls were bred to fight and as a result are a little mental, just like most of their owners.

They should be banned.

Paul

leoncurrie

08-31-04, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by PaulBar
Pit Bulls were bred to fight and as a result are a little mental Paul

Where is this documented... I would like to read more about it.

leoncurrie

08-31-04, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by leoncurrie
Where is this documented... I would like to read more about it.

Just what I thought... you have none.

Ryan23

08-31-04, 10:21 PM

Oh.. and how about making it mandatory to have all dogs spade / nutered so that we get rid of the back yard breeders and only allow registered and controlled breeders to sell dogs?

Finally something that makes more sense than the "just ban them" comments..........this is exactly what needs to happen. Not only would the number of dogs ending up in shelters decrease but the dogs being bred would be stable and tested as most legit breeders do as common practice.

Pit Bulls were bred to fight and as a result are a little mental, just like most of their owners.

Nobody disputes the Pitbulls history as a fighter in the pits against other dogs/other animals but did everone miss the stats someone posted earlier about the incredible stats in temperament tests? Do a little research on Pitbulls as therapy dogs and many other incredible jobs that they are capable of. The source of attacks by Pitbulls is Human from start to finish....from back yard breeders breeding unstable dogs to then selling them to unstable owners who yes buy them for the status symbol or for even worse reasons. Many of these dogs live lives that would make most people sick, of course you rarely hear about the owners or the conditions these dogs were kept.

Matt_K

08-31-04, 10:33 PM

I would like to share a story with everyone that just happened me to me under 4 hours ago..

During the second intermission of the Canada vs. USA hockey game, I took my dog (Pit Bull) for a walk down to the park so she could do her business (i always pick up her mess).. At the park I bumped into 2 friends of mine and was talking to them for a few minutes.. 2 of their friends later showed up and we were just sitting around having this very same debate.. A couple minutes went by and I noticed a man across the street walking his dog, a Rottweiler.. He was bent down petting his dog while she was sitting looking over at the group of us talking.. Not two minutes later I heard loud barking and claws on pavement.. I look up only to see the Rotti coming right for us.. This startled my dog who in turn started barking.. I asked the guy why he let his dog off the leash to which he replied, 'she slipped out of her collar ****ole'.. This didn't sit well with me and I asked him in a not so nice manner why he had his dog wearing a collar that didn't fit, again, he called me the same name and started walking towards me.. All the while, his dog is clawing at my legs and trying to get at my dog.. I am inbetween the two of them as I do not want anything to happen with either of these dogs...

After about two minutes, he made it across the street and was swearing with name calling as I told him he needs to get his dog on a it's leash and calmed down.. He couldn't comprehend that he was in the wrong here.. After a few minutes, he finally grabbed his dog, who by the way, was still barking, snarling and jumping up at me.. At this point I was very frustrated and told him what I thought of him.. He then asked one of my friends to hold his dog so he could kick my ***.. My initial reaction, I laughed at him.. I just laughed histarically.. I didn't know what else to do.. So, he's now in my face and the smell of alcohol is over powering my anger.. I decided to be the bigger man and back up and tell him to just be on his way.. Still, he is telling me that he's going to kick my *** and that he better not see me around here again.. It was like something out of The Outsiders or a bad Western.. Still, this MAN, cause that's what he was, in his late 30's was trying to fight me..

THESE are the types of owners that are giving us GOOD owners a bad name.. As much as I LOVE dogs of ALL breeds, anyone that owns one of these breeds that are in the spotlight right now for all the WRONG reasons, need's to be extra carefull when having their dog out in public.. Whether or not this Rotti was friendly, meant nothing to me, the simple fact that the government is lobbying for an outright BAN on Pit Bulls (it wont stop there) right now, pisses me off to see that this IDIOT is allowing his Rotti to run around off a leash..

How many of us here walk the streets with our Burms or Retics and let them wander the streets far ahead of us?? Or let them approach a group of people? Why should it be any different with a dog of ANY breed??? Many people have a fear of Reptiles, and we all respect that, MANY people have fears of Dogs, including one of the guys I was talking with, and this guy has his dog running around snarling and jumping up at people..

I have seen the point made a few times already, that we need to take responsibility for our animals, Everyone that said that is RIGHT ON.. It's a real shame that there are so many people that just can't use a leash or can't keep their dogs under control, and what's even worse, these are the same people that are making it hell on us RESPONSIBLE owners..

Sorry for rambling on, I just wanted to get that off my chest..

-Matt

marisa

09-01-04, 08:07 AM

Amazing point Lisa Marie....with all the talk of increasing numbers of dog attacking humans, its amazing more people don't think about the fact the reverse of those statistics are HUGE. MILLIONS of dogs are beaten, fought, abused and tortured.

And people wonder why some bite, then, want to ban them or kill the breed for it.

Marisa

Crystal

09-01-04, 08:50 AM

Go back to the third page in this thread and read Kimos post...in that post the history of this breed was acurately described DEAD ON! the only reason why i mention this is because some of you keep saying that pitties were bred for agression. If you could prove this to me so i can toss out all my printed literature, liniage of my pittbull, and books on the history and making of this breed and call all the reputable breeders i have ever talked to about this breed, liars! i would greatly appreciate it.

Crystal

spidergecko

09-01-04, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by lisa marie
If banning male humans from walking the streets saves ONE child from being abducted/raped/murdered....is it NOT worth it?

You can't take away human rights. In our society, animals still have NO rights so you're comparing apples to oranges.

Matt's story interests me. I will give a comparision using my cat as an example. In Toronto there is a by-law stating that cats should be on leads (no free-roaming cats). We keep our cat on a lead but every so often, the collar or harness is loose and the cat "slips out". I admit, cats are much better at slipping out of "bondage" than dogs but occasionally, even the best dog owner (because I am the best ;) ) will make a mistake and when that dogs gets free to disembowel some unsuspecting kid or pet, the parents/owner of said victim don't care one bit that you've been a good owner up until then. Even nice dogs kill other animals. Fortunately, a loose cat is more of a threat to local small wildlife than children (although this doesn't excuse free roaming cats).

Pit bulls may be the nicest, most gentle of dogs (if that's what you say) but many of the pit bulls on the street are not pure bred. They are mixed wilth all sorts of other breeds. Who knows how the temperament changes with each additional breed mixed in? Maybe you are mixing the human-killing instinct of the chiuaua with the power of a pit bull. "Oh but pit bulls are calm and don't kill people". Well killer chiuauas want to but can't because they are too small. Well now they can.

A ban on pit bulls won't work for this reason as well. Someone will have to determine how much pit bull the dog really is. With backyard breeders no one really knows. A subjective ban might, however. E.g.: Only licenced people can keep a dog over this particular size. If it costs you $100 a year to keep your dog licence this would weed out "kiddie" dog owners. Maybe that fee can be paid at the vet with every annual. Would this keep some people from taking their dog to the vet? Maybe, but a dog is hard to hide and sooner or later someone will report that you own a large dog and haven't registered it.

beagle

09-01-04, 10:30 AM

Well I own three pitbulls and a bull terrier and all of them are properlly socialized with animals and people. Alot of the posts people are putting up about them being bred for aggression and fighting and that they are mental could not be further from the truth. I suggest that you people go out and eduacate yourself properlly and learn about the breed. They are not naturally aggresive, it has to be brought out in them one way or another like any other canine. They can be animal aggresive if not properlly socialized but that goes for any canine too. Mine are three, eight and nine years old and we just bought a cat and had no problem getting them acustomed to it and they now sleep on the same couch some times. Also alot of the rep from these dogs come from no other then the media who just love to get people going for there own gain. Alot of dog attacks that happen are not even pit bulls but rather a misidentification or the media just loves to call any dog attack a pitbull attack, they don't seem to post any other dog attacks that happen everyday from some of the most common kept breeds like labs or german shepards. I can go to the park with my dogs and have people all over them playing and scratching them until they ask what kind of dog it is, if I tell them it is a pitbull they are a little cautious around them but if I tell them it's an American Staffy they just continue on like nothing was said even though they a practically the same dog, you can even get dual registered American Pitbulls and American Staffys because some kennel clubs don't recognize either or. The people pushing for these bans are the people who nothing about the breed and would probally believe there was a ghost that lived next door if it was in their local news paper. My son about a month ago was bit by a Goldon Retriever. No one ever thought that this dog would ever do anything like this but this dog had never been raised or properlly socialized around kids, great with adults and a good dog but not good with kids, it was put down a week later because of this. There is no way the local paper would publish anything about this, why....cause it happens every day with other breeds then pitbulls. I even work with a local breeder once in a while and have never even felt like I could be in danger and all of his dogs live with each other without misshaps, again they were properlly socialized. To many irresponsible dog owners get there hands on these dogs for the wrong reasons and hurt it for the responsible owners. And how do you pick out the responsible ones from the irresponsible ones? easy, the responsible owners are the ones who have their dogs on a leash and not loose in the neighberhood, the responsible ones might take there dogs for a walk at times when there is maybe less traffic or less people out and about, a responsible owner won't show off that they have a big so called kick*** pitbull, a responsible owner would follow all the city laws and try to make the best name possible for the breed. Maybe dog owner ship for certain dogs should be treated like a priveliage as it is for your driver's license, when you do something wrong or if u can't pass the test no dog for you, maybe it would at least weed out the responsible ones from the irresponsible ones(which there are to many of). Any owner that has a dog that bites whether it's a dam shitz su or pitbull has to be held accountable for their dogs actions, their the ones who trained it.... right!
Some one also said that they have a right to safety, well of course u do but we also have a right to keep what we want be a pitbull or snake, as long as it is kept properly. We aren't living in a third would country here. Not to mention people cause me more trouble then any dog would.
I have yet to read any literature that suggests that pitbulls are naturaly aggresive, but I have read lots about them exelling in obedience, dog shows and other events. so anybody who says they a more aggresive then other breeds....prove it without getting a clipping from your newspaper.
Like I said earlier I own pitbulls and they have been by far the best dogs with kids and adults that I have ever owned. Sure they bark at the door when someone knockes or comes in the yard, but what dog doesn't.
I will always own a pitbull weather it is legal or not! Thanks.

Todd

ps. Dogs that I have been bitten by are - Black Lab
- Shitz su
- Taco Bell dogs
- German Shepard
- a few cross breeds

beagle

09-01-04, 11:25 AM

Sincity you are misinformed about pitbulls.....there is no such thing as a locking jaw on a dog, pitbulls have strong jaws. I've seen little Terriers grab a rope or stick and not let it go until it wanted to. Also you were seeing all the cases of abused and mistreated dogs at the kennels. I have to kids 2 and 4 years of age and they play with my dogs all the time not to mention they are more tolerable of kids then other breeds I know of, I trust my dogs 100% with my kids. I don't trust anyone else's dog with my kids cause they don't know them just like I would not trust my dogs to be alone with other people's kids cause not all kids know how to behave around dogs, but that goes for all breeds. I don't let my dogs play unsupervised with the neighberhood kids which love to come over and see my dogs, that would be irresponsible. They are not a dog that just goes out of controll if they were raised properlly, if they do go out of control it is because of lack of training and socialization. Also they are more dangerous then a Lab if they bite just like a German Shepard is going to do more damage then a Springer Spaniel, it still does not make it ok if a smaller dog does bite, it should be treated as if it were a biter, they can still take out an eye or scar the kid for life. I have no use for any dog that is a biter and the owner and the dog should be dealt with accordingly be a Shtz su or pitbull.

Todd

Cruciform

09-01-04, 11:40 AM

In today's London Free Press:

Ontario bites back at vicious dogs

JOE BELANGER, Free Press City Hall Reporter; and CP 2004-09-01 03:09:13

Ontario's attorney general waded into the vicious dogs debate yesterday, calling for a provincewide solution. But pit bull owners were quick to defend the breed, blaming irresponsible owners and dismissing plans for a breed-specific ban.

"It's time to have a provincewide debate about whether or not there's any place in Ontario for pit bulls," Attorney General Michael Bryant said.

"One way or another, we're going to make some changes that ensure that we've got safe communities in the province of Ontario when it comes to these animals," Bryant said.

The move comes a day after London council's environment and transportation committee asked staff to draft a bylaw that could ban some dog breeds, such as pit bulls.

The issue has exploded in recent weeks, after an attack in London and another in Toronto last Saturday that sent both victims to hospital.

In a related incident, a three-year-old boy from Monkton, near Listowel, received 15 to 20 stitches after being bitten by a Chesapeake retriever at a foster home.

Bryant said the province wants to hear from experts, citizens and municipalities to decide whether pit bulls should be banned or restricted.

But pit bull owners defend their animals.

"The so-called vicious dogs I own, you might drown from them licking you to death," said Aaron Campbell, a 29-year-old Londoner.

Campbell has owned pit bulls and entered them in competitions for 10 years.

"I think it's unfair because all dogs bite," Campbell said of the anti-pit bull backlash.

"It's a lack of education and training. It's the owners who need to be punished by jail terms and big fines."

Campbell is trying to organize an information rally for dog owners -- without their pets -- at noon Saturday at Victoria Park.

Campbell said banning pit bulls won't solve the problem.

"In two years, you're just going to be banning more breeds," he said.

Pit bulls are not a specific breed, but include Staffordshire terriers and American pit bull terriers, once bred as fighting dogs. Some have been bred to be ultra-aggressive.

The Canada Safety Council echoed Campbell's remarks yesterday.

Council president Emile Therien urged more animal control measures, enforcement, education and stiffer penalties for "irresponsible" owners.

Therien said he doubts breed bans will work, since people who want vicious dogs will find others to fit the bill.

"It is high time irresponsible owners faced real consequences," Therien said.

"Criminal negligence charges must be laid against owners in cases of vicious dog attacks."

Several Canadian municipalities have banned vicious dog breeds, especially pit bulls and there is some evidence bans work.

In 1997, Kitchener passed a dangerous dog bylaw after 35 pit bull attacks in two years.

The bylaw packed a fine of as much as $5,000 and gave enforcers the power to order that dogs be muzzled or fenced.

The number of serious attacks has plummeted since , with only two pit bull incidents over the last three years.

"It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out if the breed that's doing the biting is banned, they're not going to be biting," said Jamie LaFlamme, assistant manager of the Kitchener-Waterloo Humane Society.

LaFlamme said concerns that former pit bull owners would seek other breeds proved unfounded.

"We still have our fair share of dog bites here, but I know the severity of the bites has gone down," LaFlamme said.

He agreed owners are a big part of the problem.

"I think it's a mixture of both," he said. "If you have a dog that's bred to fight, it has the strength and tenacity to keep going and, if the owner doesn't know what they're doing, you're going to have a problem."

Jay Stanford, London's manager of environmental programs, said any new vicious dog bylaw must be backed by enforcement.

V.hb

09-01-04, 12:29 PM

I dont agree with this lockjaw not being true. They have STRONG jaw pressure and wont let go. It took two paramedics to strangle one of the dogs to have it let go of the mans leg that was attacked.....

I also think its incredibly naive to continuosly compare pits to other dogs. A normal dog will give a minute bite (lab etc) and in very rare cases, a mauling. Pitbuls almost always maim who they attack given the oprotunity to (the owner doesnt stop the dog) I agree its very sad that the dog does have potential to be a great pet, hell I've seen documentaries with people that have Grizzly Bears and they're BIG sucks. Doesnt mean everyone should own one.

Another thing that bugs me, people that advocate pits dress them up in thick leather studded collars. Cmon now, you honestly think that helps anything? It's intimidating to most people (you may not think it is, but people do fear that sort of thing..)

Samba

09-01-04, 12:34 PM

My Sadie has a dainty leopard print color... LOL =)

V.hb

09-01-04, 12:38 PM

Thats what happend in toronto on the weekend, both dogs were suited in big studded collars, BIG SHOCK!

beagle

09-01-04, 12:41 PM

Hey sincity sorry if I jumped the gun there, there is just to much misinformation on the breed, I own them like many others do and lately it feels like it is open season on pitbulls.

I am curious as to what happened to any of these owners that owned the dogs that attacked. Nothing I guess we don't hear about it anyways. Also another thing is that alot of these dogs that have attacked have always seem to be the family pet for like ten years or something and then all of a sudden it loses it.
None of these owners want to take responsiblilty for there dogs actions because of some consequences they can face so of course it is always going to be a great dog that snapped for no reason.

Also someone had said earlier that we expect these dogs to indure the impossible and then we punish them because they slip up. All to often it is actually the person at fault for the bite and not the dog. I no of one dog (that was just a mixed breed) that had bit a kid after the boy stuck a pencil in it's eye!! It was just a bite ( not an attack) and the dog was put down. If a kid stuck a pencil in my eye it would be getting a hell of alot more then just a bite. Dogs just have no other way of speaking up for themselves. I try to teach my kids the proper way act around a dog and if they ever get a nip from one of them do to there own stupidity then they are going to get as much of punishment as if the dog would.
The bottom line is here that people have to be held responsible for their dogs, alot of people should not even own dogs not to mention a pitbull. Strict laws have got to be put into place (not bannes cause they will do nothing) and inforced to the fullest.

Maybe cities should make it manadatory for ALL dog owners to get a license and if they slip up with the laws they lose there dog and the right to own one.

People have got to be protected from bad owners not the dogs and the dogs have got to be protected from the bad owners.

Todd

marisa

09-01-04, 12:59 PM

"I also think its incredibly naive to continuosly compare pits to other dogs. A normal dog will give a minute bite (lab etc) and in very rare cases, a mauling. Pitbuls almost always maim who they attack given the oprotunity to "

Yes this is a good point but at the same time, there are many other breeds that do this. My Jack Russell behaves very similar to a pit bull when she is attacking something.

One time a small rabbit made the mistake of jumping into our yard, my Jack got this rabbit and after breaking its neck and "gutting" most of it, (mauling) I saw what was going on and went to get the rest of the rabbit away from her. Let me tell you, I could have literally SWUNG her from this leftover rabbit body...she REFUSED to let go....eventually I had me holding her back end, and my roomate forcefully trying to open her mouth. No go. Finally she realized it was more trouble than it was worth, and droped it......an HOUR later.

It's not just pit bulls who refuse to let go, and maul. It's small terrier breeds as well. And like I mentioned before, even though my dog is small, she can be excitable and nip. People ignore what I say and pet her anyways on the street because they think "oh so small and cute!" but she can MOST CERTAINTLY do some damage to a human if she got ahold of a leg or hand.

And also like I said before, I really don't feel there is any solution to this problem aside from making EVERY single dog owner get a PROPER education and license before purchasing ANY dog. If you are stopped while walking your dog and do not have your license on you, you are fined. Period.

Marisa

beagle

09-01-04, 01:02 PM

Lisa Marie, I agree with you one hundred percent.

V.hb, how can you say that when a lab or any other dog then a pitty bites that it is usually minuit. Do you call stiches, losing an eye and being scarred for life minuit. Any dog can give someone stiches. Not all pitty's are going to give a full blown attack either they might just give a nip to let you know you did something wrong. The ones that have attacked are poorly trained and poorly bred dogs that were in the hands of an irresponsible dog owner and were also sad examples of the breed.

Todd

beagle

09-01-04, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by sincity
Well i'm off to the dogfights.

LOL!!

NewLineReptile

09-01-04, 01:24 PM

V.hb

09-01-04, 02:01 PM

IMO jack russels are nasty little buggers too. Least they're controllable compared to a pitbull. I mean if I had a jack chasing me (because their idiotic owner hasnt heard of a leash) i dont think id be too intimidated. On the other hand, a pitbull running at me would be a different story.

I still agree, its the owners. But sometimes as the saying goes, one bad apple spoils it for all! And i personally think it's the only way to control this situation (either mass banning, or the forcement of mass licensing). I know many people who own pits becuase they're "pits". They do take care of them, but just the whole point of owning a breed because its a pitbull is incredibly ********. They should all be registered and microchipped, so if any attacks happen in the future, the owner is held liable and will not be able to own ANY dogs in the future. Period.

Matt_K

09-01-04, 02:18 PM

Im all for the microchipping of these breeds (yes, mine is chipped).. I also agree that something OTHER then banning NEEDS to be done.. Banning isn't the answer, people will just move onto another breed or keep their pits in the basement so no one knows..

Everyone has made some really good points here..

marisa

09-01-04, 02:28 PM

Microchipping RULES!

I have ALL my furry pets in the house chipped. My Jack Russell, and our three cats. This way, if anything should happen they will ALWAYS know these animals belong to me. It's something I think should be mandatory. The BEST part about chipping is you can go online and update/change your dogs information. I had an older dog chipped, and on his online "profile" which you could access with his chip number, I was able to write that he was very old,blind and deaf with a tenedency to get lost.

If anyone lives near my area, I have the name/number of an EXCELLENT dog/cat vet who is EXTREMELY well priced, and best of all, a walk-in clinic so no apointment needed.

Marisa

Collide

09-01-04, 02:58 PM

I have been reading all this and think that is all the owners,

another thing for those who have worked in shelters ect.. think of what u are exposed too all dogs who are neglicted abused mistreated, how can u judg any of those dogs on a well breed and raised dog.

look at the stats on kids that grow up in abusive homes, juvie, and foster care, there statistacally more likly to hurt other people and be criminal, sure not all are, but what is the dif.

i dont trust myself around anyones dog untill i get to know them its a animal, nor do i trust people till i get to know them. we are all animals.

zappaguy

09-01-04, 03:09 PM

$.01 more ....as i will not allow my dog to go near a pit or if i had children i would not allow them to go near 1...i am depriving myself of a favorite pit owners saying...'it's never bitten anyone before' lol

Samba

09-01-04, 03:33 PM

Ok.. what just happened here?? Man, play nice and you won't get banned... it's easy! =)

beagle

09-01-04, 05:58 PM

hmmmmmmmmm..for sure

Cruciform

09-01-04, 06:37 PM

Last time I checked there were over 10 pages of posts here, and now it's at 7... did some get eaten?

Ryan23

09-01-04, 06:44 PM

I hope this topic is allowed to continue, so far I've seen a lot of people voicing their opinion in a respectful manner and hopefully people on both sides of the issue have been learning something. I noticed the missing pages as well but I did't see anything that would warrant a lock on this thread.

It's pretty obvious that I'm pro-pitty but I'm still capable of seeing the other sides point of view, I just have to say that I think too many people have all their knowledge of this subject directly from the media which to sum it up in one word is "useless" information.

hudson

09-01-04, 08:09 PM

I'm also a proud owner of a pit mix. She is half pit and half rotti , but she resembles and acts like a pure pit. She is the most loyal and loving dog I have ever had or encountered. Anyone who meets her falls in love with her and I have had easily over a dozen people ask to buy her because of what a big suck she is and how well behaved she is. So I truly believe that it is how a dog is raised, trained, and treated that determines whether it will attack.

As for the pit attack that happened in Toronto, it was announced on the news tonight that the owner is not going to be charged because the the guy that was attacked was the actual breeder of those dogs.

And for the banning issue, they may go ahead and implement it but they will never be able to enforce it without being sued up the *** for discrimination. It's the same reason londlords can't legally refuse to rent to people with animals. They will be able to destroy the ones that end up in shelters, and confiscate the ones that are being mistreated and abused, but legally they can't touch the ones that are owned by responsible owners and this has only been proven by Kitcheners ban, There's still pitts living there and still being adopted out of their shelters. And if they do start trying to confiscate responsible owners pitts I will be the first one in court fighting it.

If they don't do a total ban and instead decide to make every one get a liscence then I strongly encourage them to also start requiring people to have a liscence to have children, because there are 10 times the amount of bad parents then bad pit owners and there is no difference between irresponsible parents letting their children run the streets at all hours of the night doing who the hell knows what and an irresponsible pit owner letting his dog of the leash and not controlling it.

Azxtmereptiles

09-01-04, 08:30 PM

We have 4 pitbulls all papered 2 are rednoses and 2 are blues and yes they are great dogs that are very good to there owners.Yes pits do get a bad rap but it is no different than any other dog you just do not hear about there bads. It is not just pits that people fight or make evil they are just the most popular in the news .. Pits do require alot of attention but that is part of the dedication you must give to have such a loyal dog..

madison.s

09-01-04, 10:41 PM

Hey Matt_k i was just reading your story, nice. You should have slapped him good. that is what we are talking about "bad owners".he is the type of owner that would say it was your fault that his dog bite you and riped you a new one. I have a rotti and she would not run over to someone with another dog barking. she knows better,she would just sit there and stare.LOL. she is very talerante of others(dogs or human) she loves to play but knows when it is the right time and place. I wish i was there when that happen, i would have given him my 2 cents worth.The only thing my rotti hates in drunk people but again she would not bite them just worn them with a bark. oh ya and for all the people that are saying they should ban the breed, i guess you have nevr owned a dog or you are one of those people that thinks your little dog would never doing anything like this. again my daughter was bite by a small dog and no one would do anything about it because of its size so dont going on here saying that they should ban a dog for what maybe 5 biteings per year. oh ya and yes the dog did leave a nice mark(will acaully a nice hole on the bottom of her foot) and this dog was always doing this to people and chasing people around even kids. so the old ban the breed is not fair,so whats next they are going to ban all dogs and then all cats as they have had attacks happen aswell.

meow_mix450

09-01-04, 11:09 PM

i believed that it has been down sized to 7 pages was cause they deleted some unneed post,i could be wrong just a guess. I was wondering if anyone has an update as to what is happening with this law??? Maybe i missed someone that posted?

Also could a mod help me make a poll??? or is it to late to make one. I wanted to see how many people here would like to see them banned and people that wishs them not to be banned. It seems theres just a little bit more that wishs them not to be banned

Meow

treegirl

09-02-04, 08:51 AM

i don't know what happened to my link-- it was interesting and was directly related to the discussion.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=817&e=5&u=/ap/dog_attack

here it is again....

treegirl

09-02-04, 09:02 AM

i don't think they should be banned. but i do think people who want to own this breed should have to go through a series of applications and maybe even extensive training on how to properly care for them. maybe that would weed out the bad folks who exploit these animals into the horrors of fighting them.

Samba

09-02-04, 10:26 AM

Hudson - I agree with you 100% but even pits that are just being WALKED by a minor are confiscated and euthanized without regard to temperment or involvement in dogfights or not. (I think I saw it on Aniimal Planet) and this was in Detroit. I was horrified to see a teenager walking his pitbull down the street when Animal Control authorities of some sort stopped him, asked his age and took his dog. The dog went to the shelter and was put down. I think it was a suspect in dogfighting, but according to what was shown, there was no trial, jury or even a hope for this dog to be freed. The dog was guilty, just for being the breed that it was. Horrible, I would sue like there was no tomorrow if that happened to me...

After seeing this program I wrote an e-mail to an organization in Detroit, and never recieved a response. It just makes me sick that humans kill other humans and animals, pollute the earth and start wars, yet are allowed at least to live in prison. I can't believe that these dogs are just being euthanized like that... even puppies! Now that's sick... =(

P.S. I live in Albuquerque and this incident occured not too far from where I JUST moved with my dog (the place I was staying at before didn't allow dogs, so I moved to keep her); a ban would definately affect her and I, so keep your fingers crossed that this guy didn't ruin it for me or anyone else. (The way they "play" with pitbulls around here is to smack them in the face... sometimes the reason why pits turn on their owners unexpectedly... it's so sad...)

BoidKeeper

09-02-04, 10:44 AM

I spoke to a former town councilor about municipalities banning animals. I was under the impression that when a municipal government is presented with this type of problem they almost always opt for a ban because it is a lot less work then preparing all the legislation required for creating new by-laws that govern the owner ship of certain animals. I always thought that they shied away from creating grandfather clauses, new registration requirements, permits etc and the enforcement officer that would either have to be hired to enforce the new by-laws or contracted out because of time and money constraints. I was told however that none of that have anything to do with it. I was told that these decisions are always 100% political. Municipal governments do what they their constituents want. They are after all the people who elected them and will either re-elect them or throw them out when the next election comes. So in the interest of staying re-elected they simply do what the majority of the voting public wants. If 2000 people say they want them banned and only 1999 say they don't want them banned, well guess what.
This was just the insight of one former municipal councilor and should be view as an opinion and taken with a grain of salt. It is still an interesting view that I had never considered before.
Cheers,
Trevor

Samba

09-02-04, 10:53 AM

Trevor, I hadn't considered the politics of it, either, but it makes sense... (for the polititcian). I am a registered voter, and trust me if a ban occurs around here I'll not only have to go underground with my dog, but they won't be getting my vote, that's for sure.

Either way, if they inact ANYTHING it'll have to be enforced, which is going to cost money and manpower, no matter what. They might as well do the sensible thing and realize that an outright ban on certain breeds are going to have more negative effects then good....

Cruciform

09-02-04, 01:21 PM

Trevor, thanks for that post.

It shows why pet owners can't just silently sit by and say nothing.

If we speak up, we're showing our solidarity. There's nothing that says we have to say "I have X number of snakes or 2 pitbulls" or whatever. We simply need to make our opinions known to the people who take our tax money, and vote themselves raises with it.

sleddergirl

09-04-04, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by Kimo
ok time for a bit of education here on pitties,

first off, this dog was orginally designed for bear baiting! you got it people to hunt bears, and after a law that was passed in britain to ban hunting of bears, people turned to pit fights, putting one pitty against another, and im sorry these dogs were not bred for aggression, they were bred for their endurance, their "gameness" for those of you whom don't understand it's their ability to keep going in a fight, regardless of the fact they may be mortally wounded (ie. internal organs dragging behind them). Now in regards to their aggression...this is nonsence these dogs were selectively bred so that agression would NOT be a problem. to prove this point, during pit fights if the opposite owner couldn't handle the others pittbull, it was immediately put down, and the same goes for breeding, if say a male pitty bit their owner, or anyone else, it, along with all of its pups were also immediately destroyed. (keep in mind this type of selective breeding stopped about 30 years ago) the problem with the breed today is these "backyard breeders" who think it's cool to have a "tuff" dog. and anyone who labels this breed as agressive...well your about as well informed as a kindergarten kid, go do the research on this breeds history, cause to date their isn't a breed out their that can claim the title of "loyal till death" like the American PittBull Terrier can...

sorry if i came off rude to anyone, im just sick and tired of this breed being bashed, do the research before you judge!

"Proud Owner Of A PureBred "Game" American PitBull Terrier"
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/3646Havoc-med.jpg

Josh

I agree with everything you have said. I have owned this breed for the last 16 years. The old dogmen who were the original fighters of the breed were the ones who kept the human aggressiveness out of the breed.
One question though............."Proud owner of a purebred "game" American pit bull terrier"...............how can you claim to have a game dog? The only way to test true gameness is to fight the dog..............and please don't say that its in the bloodlines because there have been champion "gamers" that have produced many "currs" in their bloodline.?

WRX

09-05-04, 08:05 PM

I, after listening to some radio today, and some research, think this breed serves no purpose to the pet trade, and should be banned

Thanks!

BT

ICULIZARD

09-06-04, 01:27 AM

wrx....I was at a Pet store on Friday and had our Pug with us.....a man there was holding a 5 month old Pitbull and we started talking. This dog was beautiful and very friendly and I really believe it's more on the owners than the breed themselves. This dog was great with ours and to be honest I've known probably 15 pits and all have been friendly well behaved dogs. Unfortunately it seems a lot of "undesirable and irresponsible" people flock to this breed and that makes it hard for all the owners that love the breed and don't just want them to make themselves look tough. Punish the irresponsible owners and backyard breeders.....don't punish the breed. Look at all the people that have responded to this thread that have wonderful Pitbulls and care about their animals, and if you believe that banning these dogs will make a difference....think how you would feel if a law was passed that said you could not keep your animal. (It's Pitbulls now....but just wait, next thing it could be rotti's, bullmastiffs, boxers etc) Banning the breed is a "band-aid" fix and will not help solve the problem.

JMO

Ryan23

09-06-04, 09:54 AM

I, after listening to some radio today, and some research, think this breed serves no purpose to the pet trade, and should be banned

Wow, so you listened to the media and did what? look at what studies on pitbulls? If it hasn't become clear enough, the media is after the big story and has no interest in the source of the problem......THE OWNERS!!! They give you the information that will make you cringe and nothing more, every news story I've seen or heard gives gory details or is followed by shots of chained vicious dogs. Just for once I'd like to see them go film a pitbull doing therapy work or search and rescue but why would they do that? there's no ratings in that kind of thing, that's why.

As far as research, I can give you some great sources of info on pittes that isn't off of some sort of BSL website or media supplied link.

I for one refuse to stand by and let a breed that I have known for most of my life be banned. One which I credit for years of companionship and even saving me from breakins and possible harm on more than one occasion. I've lived and REALLY known this breed for years and these dogs have come from loving homes that provided these dogs with what they needed and in return received everything great this breed is capable of giving. I want bans too.......on irresponsible breeders and owners who are ruining this breed and as a result many other breeds as well. It will never stop at just the Pitbull. Make people responsible for a change because WE are the only truly viscious species on this planet.

Proud owner of a Pitt X that as I type this is being attcked by a 10 week old kitten and not even batting an eye.
http://ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/5128bull4weeks.jpg

marisa

09-06-04, 10:55 AM

Honestly, the only people who should be in a debate with a town to make this decision are Pit Bull owners, and people who have been attacked by Pit Bulls.

They are the ONLY ones with first hand knowledge from BOTH sides.

Marisa

ladyluck

09-07-04, 02:54 PM

So what about families of those who have been mauled or killed?
How about friends? Co-workers?

Just to get it right here, in order to be what you consider 'an expert' you have to:

1) Own a Pit Bull?

or

2) Have been attacked by one?

Riiiiight....

Shad0w

09-07-04, 03:16 PM

I cant believe this monster thread is STILL growing :)

marisa

09-07-04, 03:24 PM

Actually thats not what I meant at all. But of course, some people have nothing better to do than jump to conclusions.

As for my part, it was moronish for me not to spell out my point in A B and C exactly to the tee. What I meant by those attacked, was anyone DIRECTLY involved with a pit bull attack.

Aside from that group, Pit Bull owners and possibly vets/animal behaviour experts, no, it's not up to anyone else as no one else has a first hand view or knowledge of them. That's my opinion and there is no need to argue it against me by the use of a numbered list, or otherwise.

Marisa

ladyluck

09-07-04, 03:35 PM

And as always, you have to have the last word.

marisa

09-07-04, 03:41 PM

LOL! We are having a discussion????? Are we not? What are you talking about the last word? Grow up! Holy cow. I wasn't even thinking ANYTHING like attitude-ish or anything. Wow it's blowing my mind you actually think this is an arguement.

Relax! You can have as many words as you wish. This is a ::::discussion::::: after all! I just wished you had not picked apart my post and taken it so literally as I honestly believe only certain people have a right to make a choice about this particular topic.

Marisa

marisa

09-07-04, 03:44 PM

Seriously, let's just not argue becasue I do not want this thread to get closed on account of what I or you might have said or will say.

Let's just leave it at a differance of opinions, and I am sorry if whatever I posted offended you.

And that's that. Good day,

Marisa

ladyluck

09-07-04, 03:52 PM

I say good day to you then!

Fez rules!

marisa

09-07-04, 04:01 PM

Apparently we do have something in common because......Fez DOES rule!

lol :P

Marisa

Ryan23

09-08-04, 10:57 AM

Fatal Dog Attacks - Canada: 1983 - 2003

1983 (2) Farm Dogs Roaming dogs kill child (Edmonton)
1987 (1) German Shep X Chained dog attacked child (Vernon)
1988 (1) German Shep Unsupervised child (Quebec)
1990 (1) Chow Chow Attack on newborn (Ontario)
1993 (1) Sled dogs Chained dogs kill child (N.W.T.)
1993 (5) Sled dogs Attacked by loose dogs (Alberta)
1994 (1) Maremma Sheepdog Family dog killed child (Ontario)
1995 (2) Am Staffs Drunken man provoked dogs (Ontario)
1995 (2) German Sheps Killed by uncle's dogs (Saskatchewan)
1996 (?) Strays Child killed by stray dogs (Manitoba)
1997 (1) Sled dog Chained dog w/pups (Saskatchewan)
1998 (?) Sled dogs Pack chained on sea ice (Iqaluit)
1998 (1) Bullmastiff Playing w/neighbor's dog (Ontario)
1998 (8) Lab/Huskies Xs Mother & son killed by pack (Newfoundland)
1998 (6) Strays Boy killed by strays (Manitoba)
1999 (1) Husky X Neighbor's dog (British Columbia)
1999 (1) Husky One of 24 chained dogs (Quebec)
1999 (1) Husky X Grandfather's dog (N.W.T.)
1999 (?) Strays Girl killed by starving dogs (Alberta)
2002 (2) Lab X & Rott Attacked in field (Ontario)
2003 (3) Rottweilers Boy wandered into yard (New Brunswick)
2003 (4) German Shep Xs Grandmother's dogs (Manitoba)

Some stats pulled directly from the National Canine research Foundation website................ ncrf2004.tripod.com/ (http://ncrf2004.tripod.com/)

Definately a site to check out to get real info on this issue.

ladyluck

09-08-04, 02:52 PM

These are only partial statistics.
They in no way reflect all attacks (fatal or not) in Canada over this time period.

ladyluck

09-08-04, 03:00 PM

I know this because I indirectly work for Stats-Can and have all access to all statisics about everything and anything.

marisa

09-08-04, 03:13 PM

Great! Because I'd love to see the statistics they do have regarding dog bites. Can you please post them or point us where so we can see them?

Marisa

Samba

09-08-04, 03:16 PM

Fez is HOT! :::drool::: =)

Ryan23

09-08-04, 03:51 PM

I didn't say anything about it reflecting all attacks fatal or not did I? That is also from an American site so of course it doesn't reflect Canada's stats perfectly that is why I provided a link to show all of the info they have.

As Marisa said I'd love to see those stats as well, please do point us in the right direction. If they in any way resemble the US stats on these subjects it will be just as clear that breed bans don't work.

Ryan23

09-08-04, 03:55 PM

ladyluck,

I wasn't aware that stats canada kept records of all reported bites/attacks, that would be very interesting and usefull info. If you can share this with us all to help shed more light on the subject it would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Ryan.

Matt_K

09-08-04, 04:03 PM

I hate to be the man who spoiled all the fun for you guys.. But his name is FES.. And it stands for Foreign Exchange Student!! You son of a b.......... :D

ladyluck

09-08-04, 07:07 PM

If any of you are a member of the conference board of canada, or work for a company who puchases data charts from them you can look them up. Some are free to the public.
It would be illegal for me to post the exact page of statistics but I will compile a list that will not violate any copywrites.
I still find it hard to believe that the numbers were that low in the states for that long a time period. Those stats would more reflect a monthly or bi-monthly term.

Ryan23

09-08-04, 08:47 PM

Those are not US statistics, they are canadian stats put together by the US run site who are trying to compile worldwide stats on fatal dog attacks.

Please visit the site, if I remember correctly they listed 250-300 fatal dog attacks from the 1960's to present in a nation with a massive human and dog population. Now, that is coming from the National Canine Research Foundation and I may be naive but I'm willing to take their word on the subject.

ladyluck

09-09-04, 10:39 AM

I say good day to you then....

Samba

09-09-04, 10:57 AM

Fez, Fes... who cares??? Still HOT!! LOL =)

P.S. Stats would be interesting...

Matt_K

09-09-04, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Samba
Fez, Fes... who cares??? Still HOT!! LOL =)

P.S. Stats would be interesting...

Foreign Exchange Ztudent it is then... Wilmer wouldn't be impressed right now guys.. :D :P

Samba

09-09-04, 01:10 PM

LOL Matt... you have to admit... they do pronounce it FEZZZZZZ. =)

P.S. Still very, VERY HOT!!! =)

BWSmith

09-09-04, 01:17 PM

I was just skimming through this thread, but this stuck out to me.

they were bred for their endurance, their "gameness" for those of you whom don't understand it's their ability to keep going in a fight, regardless of the fact they may be mortally wounded (ie. internal organs dragging behind them). Now in regards to their aggression...this is nonsence these dogs were selectively bred so that agression would NOT be a problem. to prove this point, during pit fights if the opposite owner couldn't handle the others pittbull, it was immediately put down, and the same goes for breeding, if say a male pitty bit their owner, or anyone else, it, along with all of its pups were also immediately destroyed. (keep in mind this type of selective breeding stopped about 30 years ago) the problem with the breed today is these "backyard breeders" who think it's cool to have a "tuff" dog. and anyone who labels this breed as agressive...well your about as well informed as a kindergarten kid, go do the research on this breeds history, cause to date their isn't a breed out their that can claim the title of "loyal till death" like the American PittBull Terrier can...

Yes, you are correct, they can keep fighting after a serious wound and are very tough dogs. How do i know this? Because i was attacked by a Pitbull. After inflicting serious damage to a leg, it lunged for my throat. Luckily I got my arm between his jaws and my neck. So he tried again, and again he only got my arm (which was covered in blood by this point). Luckily the gods were on my side, and it sounds odd, but when i looked down, there was a tire iron on the ground. On his 3rd try for my throat, i managed to get the iron and swung it at his head as hard as I could. I hit this dog in head with a hunk of steel as hard as i could (luckily my right arm had not been torn up). This stunned him enough for me to get to safety. So yes, i am a bit jaded against pits. Of course that same dog bit 2 kids as well. Was he put down? nope. he was studded out. Was this an isolated experience? Nope. i have seen 4 people get attacked by pitbulls with no provocation. The history of the breed is irrelevant. It does not matter that founding stock was bred to be personable. What matters is that it is not the case anymore. Immoral breeders do not care. They just want to sell their "product". Personally, i feel that Pitbulls should be classified as dangerous animals, just like venomous snakes. Normal owners cannot imagine the power of these animals until you have one trying to kill you. And in my experience, they are one of the most unpredicatable breeds. I also think there should be premits to keep them and strict housing requirements. A free roaming Pitbull is a disaster waiting to happen, as are many other breeds of dog.

I cannot stand irresponsible ownership of dangerous animals. To those of you who keep the animal confined, spend the time to train it well, and offer proper care, good for you. Unfortunately, you are a minority. Far too many people's dogs roam free. I do not tolerate this behavior. If ANY dog comes into my yard and i feel that it poses a danger to myself or my family, it will go down. My old roomate was attacked by a dog in our dirveway. I am an advocate of people's rights to own whatever animals that they wish given they are qualified and responsible. Unfortunately, from my experience, 90% of Pit keepers are NOT qualified or responsible. And i truly feel sorry for those dogs. I even feel sorry for the ones that attack people. It is not always their fault. But that does not mean that it willnot go down. I have a rule. If a dog is charging me, most breeds i give 10 feetaway before putting it down. Pitbulls, I give 25 feet. This is of course if they start that far away. If Pits start closer than that, then any movement that i percieve as a prelude to attack, i will not hesitate to fire. Just one more reason for Pit owners to keep their dogs secure.

Keep what you like, just be responsible.

Ryan23

09-09-04, 10:40 PM

I cannot stand irresponsible ownership of dangerous animals. To those of you who keep the animal confined, spend the time to train it well, and offer proper care, good for you. Unfortunately, you are a minority. Far too many people's dogs roam free. I do not tolerate this behavior. If ANY dog comes into my yard and i feel that it poses a danger to myself or my family, it will go down. My old roomate was attacked by a dog in our dirveway. I am an advocate of people's rights to own whatever animals that they wish given they are qualified and responsible. Unfortunately, from my experience, 90% of Pit keepers are NOT qualified or responsible. And i truly feel sorry for those dogs. I even feel sorry for the ones that attack people. It is not always their fault. But that does not mean that it willnot go down. I have a rule. If a dog is charging me, most breeds i give 10 feetaway before putting it down. Pitbulls, I give 25 feet. This is of course if they start that far away. If Pits start closer than that, then any movement that i percieve as a prelude to attack, i will not hesitate to fire. Just one more reason for Pit owners to keep their dogs secure.

I am with you 100%..........and I own a Pit X. I'm well aware of the breeds power and what they are capable of if mistreated and abused. I have lived with these dogs much of my life and I know them and what it takes to be a RESPONSIBLE owner of a Pit and I have also had to live with the stigma and stereotype of these animals. Not one of my dogs has ever bit anyone or even another dog but I too would not hesitate to put one down if neccessary, and that goes for any breed. However, being that I consider myself an experienced and responsible owner of this breed I feel the same way a keeper of venemous reptiles feels. This is not a breed for anyone and it takes a huge commitment and a ton of knowledge to properly keep them. Having been around them for so long I know without a doubt that their image of being "man-eaters" and uncontrolable is simply not true but just like 90% of owners are irresponsible, 99% of the population is misinformed on the breed.

Breed bans will not work as other breeds will just replace the banned ones.........dog fights were made illegal long long ago yet it is still a massive problem that has simply gone underground, just like the dogs will. This has happened because the penalty for fighting dogs is a slap on the wrist and the penalties for irresponsible and cruel owners are for the most part non-existent. PUNISH these people for THEIR actions and please do put in a liscencing system for breeders and owners, I know as do most RESPONSIBLE Pit owners that this is the best answer.

ladyluck

09-10-04, 03:12 PM

I appologize to those of you who were waiting to see the statistics from Stats Can as per the number of dog attacks (fatal or non) per year.
I did find a table containing such information, but it would even cost ME cash to get it.
I have as it turns out (ALMOST) unlimited access to these tables but cannot retrieve this one in particular.
I'm gonna keep digging and see what I can find through some contacts that I know at Stats Canada directly, and I will keep you posted.
Again, sorry for not following through. Not something I normally do.

Not a word Marissa~!

emilsmee

09-10-04, 08:57 PM

i know a lot of people keep pitbulls and they don't cause any trouble, but i think this breed should be discontinued. just get every one of them neutered/spayed and there will be no more. they're bred to be what they are, attackers. they're just doing what's been bred into them. people who promote this breed are just promoting this breed's bad qualities. i agree there are a LOT of nice ones, but it's like owning a tiger. sure there are nice tame tigers too, maybe even the majority are, but that doesn't mean they are a nice cat to own as a pet. i think a majority of people who own pits like their image as a vicious dog and thats what makes their nature a lot worse. IMO, as i said, this breed is not an ideal pet (and yes i've known a lot of them, a majority being nice ones). but why get the potentially dangerous animal when there are SOOO many other breeds that have much more predictable and even temperments. rottweilers get this reputations too, but there's is more protective behaviour than an instinctive attack. but they've proven to be more trustworthy and even tempered. n e way thats just my 2 cents.

marisa

09-10-04, 09:15 PM

Would you stop assuming I am going to or have attacked you?

Frankly doing that seems very childish and annoying. If I have said nothing to you, then leave it at that. If I have, and it offended you, please PM me and we can discuss it, or report the post.

Marisa

BWSmith

09-10-04, 09:20 PM

I would never tell anyone that they cannot have ANY animal. As long as they are qualified people. If you are capable, qualified, responsible and experienced, keep a Grizzly Bear for all I care.

marisa

09-10-04, 09:24 PM

I agree 100% BWSmith.

Marisa

ladyluck

09-10-04, 10:57 PM

Want a tissue?

BWSmith

09-10-04, 11:35 PM

Everyone be nice. We have attack 'possums here in Georgia if you get out of line ;)

Ryan23

09-11-04, 12:59 AM

but why get the potentially dangerous animal when there are SOOO many other breeds that have much more predictable and even temperments. rottweilers get this reputations too, but there's is more protective behaviour than an instinctive attack. but they've proven to be more trustworthy and even tempered. n e way thats just my 2 cents.

Myself along with many others have tried(obviously in vain) to point the misled in the right direction for the truth on this breed. There are proven, undesputable studies on the temperaments of Pitts and how they score higher than many so-called even tempered breeds but everyone seems to ignore this. I'd really like to see the study that says that Rottweilers are simply more protective rather than actually instinctively attack focused or better yet, show me the study that shows Pitts are focused on the attack. Yes, Pitts are known for their DOG aggression and that is a fact of the breed but human aggression is another story.

they're bred to be what they are, attackers. they're just doing what's been bred into them. people who promote this breed are just promoting this breed's bad qualities.

Statements like this show a complete and total ignorance towards the breed, I don't want to offend anyone and I don't mean to insult either but that is exactly what that statement is. Attacking people is not what these dogs were bred for and it has been stated many times that the exact opposite is true. They are not doing what has been bred into them, they are doing what has been taught to them and beaten into them by cruel and heartless PEOPLE. I promote the truth behind Pitbulls and I do it from actual experience and knowledge of the breed, all good by the way, so I think I'm gonna get off of this computer and go play with my Pit who is in my living-room getting beat up by my kitten and loving it.

emilsmee

09-11-04, 01:26 AM

i didn't say they were meant to attack people, just to attack. i do realize there are a lot of people who own them and they're awesome animals, but the potential is more realistic with this breed. any dog with the wrong owner is terrible, just as any dog with an awesome owner can be the best. but it just seems that it takes a lot less to ruin the temperment this breed. i could mention a bad trait in any breed that could condemn them but none are as prevelant or severe as a pittbull.
i know people who raise wildcats that are as tame as puppies, but a large majority of people shouldn't own them either. they are nice with certain people raising them, but they are a lot more able to do damage than your a housecat.
i don't understand why people want tigers and pumas as pets, as much as i don't see why people want a dog with that kind potential. but as with tigers and same with pitts, there are people who keep them and keep them well. everyone here thats posted about their dogs seems to be the minority of those keeping them properly. cudos, but you should realize they attract the wrong kind of people for the most part. when you breed them and sell them you sell them to people who you may or may not interview ahead of time. but if they breed the one you sold them, who says they're going to screen buyers, and same with that one and the one after. so you may have done your part, but that may mean nothing in the long run.

ladyluck

09-11-04, 10:39 AM

"Everyone be nice. We have attack 'possums here in Georgia if you get out of line".

That's funny cause I was in California 2 years ago and got chased around a garage by one. They are nasty little beasts!

BWSmith

09-11-04, 10:50 AM

i don't understand why people want tigers and pumas as pets, as much as i don't see why people want a dog with that kind potential.

And most people don't understand why you would want a herp at all, or a hermit crab. Condemning the ownership of animals that you personally would have seems a bit self-rightious. It is not about getting rid of the breed, as you suggested. It is rather all about responsible ownership.

I do not condemn anyone that owns a pitt until they show that they are amoung the irresponsible. Unfortunately, it is generally the animals that pay the price.

There are proven, undesputable studies on the temperaments of Pitts and how they score higher than many so-called even tempered breeds but everyone seems to ignore this
As I am no expert on dogs, I would very much like to see the studies you refer to. All I can go on is first hand information, and I have the scars to prove it ;)

marisa

09-11-04, 10:58 AM

Whatever you say, little girl.

Marisa

timfriesen32

09-11-04, 11:10 AM

I am not understanding this post at all. I understand that a lot of people have been attacked by pitts, I also understand that alot of people own them and raise them right and train them properly. The problem with banning them (or any animal for that matter) is that people will continue to keep them underground. The other probelm with banning them is that another breed of dog will replace them. The people that train their pits to be mean attack dogs, will them turn the Rotti breed, or the doberman breed, or Akitas, or Mastiffs, or some other big breed that they can beat into a mean attack dog.

It's the people that need to be controled. They have chosen pits because of their tough no quit attitude. If they can't keep pits they'll find something else.

The other thing that bothers me is that some of the same people who are complaining about pits as being dangerous, keep venemous snakes, or retics, or burms, or african rocks. They to are dangerous animals if you do not know how to take care of them. If they were talking about banning our wonderful giant snakes, this post would have a very different spin to it. If it's mean dogs that we should stop allowing to reproduce and want to spay or neuter them all, why don't we spay or neuter all the potentially agressive humans in this world as well. There are lots of people out there that get nothing but pleasure out of ponding the sh** out of anothe person. Lets stop them from reproducing as well and ban them to.

Sorry for the venting, it's just very aggrivating reading a lot of misinformed non researched material.

I am sorry if you are a person out there that has been attacked by a pit, very sorry. I understand where you are coming from, but if you had been attacked by a lab, or a poodle that did a lot of damage, you'd be screaming about them then instead of pits.

Just my 2 (well maybe more) 2 cents.

Tim

Ryan23

09-11-04, 11:14 AM

everyone here thats posted about their dogs seems to be the minority of those keeping them properly. cudos, but you should realize they attract the wrong kind of people for the most part. when you breed them and sell them you sell them to people who you may or may not interview ahead of time. but if they breed the one you sold them, who says they're going to screen buyers, and same with that one and the one after. so you may have done your part, but that may mean nothing in the long run.

And good luck finding a person here that owns these dogs and doesn't agree that they attract the wrong kind of people.........I'm a 24 yr old guy that has tattoos and owns a 100lb+ dog that looks like am overgrown Pit. Did I buy him for the image? Not unless I felt cool and tough with my parents Pit X when I was 7 yrs old because that is how long I've been with and loved these dogs but I have to deal with what people think of me and my dog everyday. But ask me to prove my experience with the breed and aquire a permit to keep Pitties and I'll gladly do so if it means stopping the abuse of the breed and repairing their tainted image. I bought my dog because I knew the breeders, I knew BOTH the parents and couldn't find bad qualities in either of them and that has shown through in the way my dog has turned out.

Once again make laws to punish the people who abuse the breed and not just a slap on the wrist anymore which teaches these people nothing and does nothing to stop them. I have an idea.......why don't people start trying to repair the damage that we have done for so long. This dog was unheard of on fatal human attack stats 20-30 years ago untill we did what we did with GSD's or Doberman's, the origianal "dangerous breeds", we taught them to be dangerous. It's funny that a breed like the Pitbull was almost invisible as far as human attacks go untill people started abusing these dogs and our reaction once we have abused them to this point? Ban them, wipe them off of the face of the earth because we aren't willing to fix our mistakes, wow that is starting to sound way to familiar.

Ryan23

09-11-04, 11:32 AM

As I am no expert on dogs, I would very much like to see the studies you refer to. All I can go on is first hand information, and I have the scars to prove it

Sure.........
The American Pit Bull Terrier is clearly a useful member of society, the breed was World War One Hero, its rated as having one of the best overall temperaments in the United States (A.T.T.S.).

This is from the N.R.C.F. (http://ncrf2004.tripod.com/) website and the A.T.T.S. is the American Temperament Testing Society which does have a website but it won't come up on my browser at the moment but please do check it out for yourself. The NCRF website also has the e-mail's for a few canine behaviourists if you'd like an experts opinion on the breed.

BWSmith

09-11-04, 01:20 PM

The other thing that bothers me is that some of the same people who are complaining about pits as being dangerous, keep venemous snakes, or retics, or burms, or african rocks. They to are dangerous animals if you do not know how to take care of them.

Yes, I consider Pitts to be dangerous animals. Just as I consider my venOmous (that spelling error drives me nuts) snakes to be dangerous animals, and the giant snakes. I think a logical and attainable permit system should be in place for ALL dangerous animals. AI have also been attacked by other breds of dogs as well (maybe dogs just don't like me). But the Pitt was the only attack where I feared for my life.

Ryan, thanks for the link.

Ryan23

09-11-04, 01:39 PM

Not a problem BW........

Here's an article I found that I'd like to share with everyone considering all the nasty articles that are always in the news. Dog saves owners life. (http://http://www.sbtfun.com/Hero_PullTerrier.html)

Yes it's a Staffordshire Bull Terrier in the article but they are very very closely related to the Pit and were bred for the same purposes(Bull Baiting).

Scales Zoo

09-11-04, 02:55 PM

Actually American Staffordshire's were pitbulls until people started breeding them for conformation in the 1930's and they were added to the AKC, were they not. Staffordshire Bull terriers were added to the UKC around the same time - same thing there. The american ones would have been called Staffordshire Bull terriers also, but the "bull terrier" people didn't want the names so close.

I have a few old general dog books at home, and I know that 2 of them suggest APBT's as one of the 4 good dogs for family homes. I was kinda suprised to read that the first time, but obviously the people who wrote that aren't suckered into the smear campain being fought against APBT's since the 70's.

Ryan

Ryan23

09-11-04, 10:34 PM

You're right Ryan, they are pretty much the same breed but some people just chose to go for a slightly different look. The same as what people did with the English Bulldog, they sure didn't look the way they do today 100 yrs ago. Pitbulls and American Staffordshire Terriers are the same breed and many are registered as both with the different organizations. Staffordshire Bull Terriers have been kept very close to what the original standards were like.

leoncurrie

09-11-04, 11:17 PM

I just heard on the news tonight that there were two different incidents of pit bull attacks in the last or two in Ontario. One of those attacks was against a police officer. The officer opened fire on the pit bull after the attack. the other one was a pit bull attacking the owners girlfriend. Both of these incidents were aparently unprovked.

emilsmee

09-12-04, 02:56 PM

see it's not that all of them are like that, it's just more heard of than in any other breed. ever watch animal cops? all the vicious dogs are pitbulls, i've yet to see a vicious rottweiler on that show and i watch it nearly every night (well there was one but she was a stary that was protecting her newborn pups). in fact they have a kill policy with rescued pitbulls in detroit. which means any pitbull rescued gets put down. why do you think they came to that conclusion? not because of reputation, they're the ones who are fighting for the animals. or is it because they've worked closely with the breed and know what they are and aren't capable of as far as adapting goes?

meow_mix450

09-21-04, 02:48 PM

Well i heard on the news that they are NOT banning pitbulls but if seen one without a lesh can be fined. Also i think they are to be only let out in your backyard or something, so not int he yee of the public, it was early in the morining didnt really hear a lot lol

Meow

BigBADace

09-23-04, 10:53 AM

I just finished throwing up up after hearing about the most recent attack from attack tuesday. Ididnt hear it on the news until this morning but 2 pitbulls ripped apart a small jack russel terrior spilling its insides all over the ground in front of the owner of the jack russel and her SMALL CHILD who the nobel dog willingly gave up his life to defend, men with 2 x4's eventually scared these dogs off before anymore innocent life was lost..............ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING!!!!

Next time i walk my dog it will be with a baseball bat and my 10 inch hunting knife, i really can't debate this it makes me too angry and upset, i am ashamed to know anyone supporting the existence of pitbulls, FILL SOME OF THAT EMPTY SPACE IN YOUR EGOS' UP WITH SOMETHING LESS DANGEROUS PLEASE, try working out, or perhaps ***** enlargement surgury, maybe killing and mutilating small children and dogs yourself will make u feel like more of a man.....

Shad0w

09-23-04, 10:58 AM

The latest attack on the jack russel is disgusting...

Where the pits off leash? Why couldnt the owner control them?

V.hb

09-23-04, 11:12 AM

BigBADace, as reluctant as I'am to agree with your line about pits and egos, I have to agree.. I can't defend ownership of them either, although you did get kind of insulting towards the end..

Theres always some nice animals out there, and good owners I dont agree they should be punished for the carelessness of others, but it seems as if this whole situation is going on too long, and is just too dangerous. I think they should propose that any new potential owners must pass a test to purchase a pitt. I also feel that alot should be taken into consideration in this testing including the owners appearance and attitude.

BigBADace

09-23-04, 11:24 AM

The line HAS to be drawn somewhere and there should be a point where a growing number of "bad apples" so to speak ruin things for a whole breed, things have gone to far the threat which the dangerous pitties pose outweighs any owners right to keep this breed of dog, friendly or not

Samba

09-23-04, 11:26 AM

It's a terrible situation for us pitt owners when something like this happens. I never really know what to say, except I want to defend my right to keep my dog, S80 (Sadie) who is a pitt mix.

I don't fill my ego with my dog's bloodlines, and I am not a man, either. These assumptions make you appear ignorant and uneducated. My dog is a rescue. She was abandoned by her owners and starved. She sat outside her home for a week, waiting for her heartless owners to return. She should be mean, but that happy tail just won't quit wagging. She's my best friend, and you can't lump her and I into a catagory that includes careless owners and dangerous dogs.

BigBADace

09-23-04, 11:46 AM

There are always be exceptions and not evryone will fit the typical pit bull owner's stereotype...however whether u see it as ignorant or not i do and always will belive that there is a general profile which just too many people owning pit bulls fit, like around me out in the suburbs, its all the 5 foot nuthing, highschool drop out, pants down to their knees,"thugged out," (cough) white guys who use there animals for nuthing more than a pure ego boost

I know evryone is not like these people i speak of but the real fact is that it is just not the abundance of unfit owners, it's the potential for destruction and unpredictability of this breed

This topic makes me far to emotional so i am going to stop posting, i am sorry to those who i may have offended in this thread good bye

Matt_K

09-23-04, 12:02 PM

Just to clarify, there was no small child involved. The mother was a 60+ year old and she was with her 30+ year old daughter.. However, that is NO excuse..

Here is the story, with video for those interested..

http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20040922-022/page.asp

BigBADace: you bring up some very good points... It seems that all too many 'teens' not all 'drop outs' but teens and early 20's people are getting these dogs for some sort of status.. It's been happening since I was in highschool and is more popular with them now.. It's a shame that RESPONSIBLE owners like 99% of the owners on this board as well as some others on the net will now be discriminated against due to these ignorant owners..

My question is why were these dogs running the street??? It's disgusting how many people let their dogs roam free no matter what breed.. It seems that more and more im seeing Dogs walking the street at all times of the day/night with no owner anywhere to be seen.. Why do people get dogs if they don't intend to treat them like the pets they were aquired as???

Im AGAINST the banning of Pit Bulls and not just because I own one, but because it's not all the dogs fault, much of the blame has to be placed in the lap of the owner... If everyone would be responsible with their dogs and stiffer fines were handed out to backyard breeders and people who let their dogs (any breed) walk up and down ANY street without a leash, this type of stuff wouldn't be happening as often as it is...

-Matt

zappaguy

09-23-04, 12:59 PM

i work with a guy who lives next door to the owner of said pitbulls and he is what is classified as 'the typical pitbull owner' and its also not the 1st attack from these dogs. he has no control over the dogs and this seess to be 1 of the biggest problems. and that you cannot police no matter what bylaws you put in. very sad...very sad..

Samba

09-23-04, 12:59 PM

Thanks, Matt, for posting that story.

I'm so sorry for all the people and animals involved because no one wins. The pits will likely lose their lives (now having demonstrated at least one act of aggression), the owner possibly fined, and obligated, I would think, to replace the pet that was lost. The owners of the Terrier suffer the horror of seeing their companion become a bloody, torn-up mass, and of course, the terrior who lost his life...

I agree that there are a lot of people who own these dogs only for the status; but many, MANY people own them because they can and do make great pets. Banning the breed won't solve anything, all it will do is force owners to go underground.

I know I'm repeating much of the information posted here, but I feel it's neccessary to understand the WHOLE issue, not just a fraction of it. I seriously don't believe you can lump most of the breeds' owners into that stereotype. In fact, by doing so, you are probably only perpetuating and encouraging it.

Jungle Jen

09-23-04, 01:03 PM

BLAME THE DEED, NOT THE BREED!!!
I work in pet rescue, and I'm a veterinary technician, so I get a lot of exposure to different breeds of dogs. I specialized in dogs that had severe agression and behavioral issues. These dogs lived with me in my home, until they were rehabilitated and able to go to a new home. The most bites I have received are from chihuahua's, shih tzu's, lhasa apso's, maltese, jack russell terriers, small mixed breed dogs, followed by goldens, labs, rottweillers, huskies, and supposed wolf hybrids. Most of the large dogs were unsocialized yard dogs, and the small dogs just did not get disciplined by their owners and were spoiled. The reason we keep hearing about pit bull attacks, is because if and when they bite, they can do substantial damage. If a chihuahua bites, it hurts, but there is usually not much damage. I know here in Vancouver there are several pit fighting rings, and banning this breed will just make them more desireable for the wrong kind of owners. When I was young I was bit by 2 neighbourhood dogs that were raised with children, both of them were labs. Here is part of a post by my friend who worked for the SPCA and was injured by a dog while transferring it to a veterinary hospital.

"i have just started reading all the posts about the breed ban but unfortunately have been unable post myself right now. i am still having trouble typing these days, among other things, as my arms are still a mess from the wounds i received over a year ago by a mistreated, unsocialized, injured ROTTWEILER. both my arms and wrists were broken, bone was ripped out of my left wrist, and i have had at least 8 surgeries and still have at least 2 more to come. i am in physio for 4 hours daily and in pain 24 hours a day, every day. do i think rottweilers should be banned because of this? hell no!!
do i think guard/yard dogs should be banned, that no dog should live secluded, neglected, unsocialized; that breeding regulations need to be put in place and that people need to be educated and held accountable - hell yes!
if more people knew more about the dogs they 'own' and were responsible 'owners' none of these attacks would ever happen. "

BLAME THE DEED, NOT THE BREED.

Shad0w

09-23-04, 01:07 PM

Yes but its still easier to ban the breed, remove the potential.. than train owners and HOPE all owners are good...

Bottom line, the public has a right to safety.. and its just easier to remove the potential problem than educate and hope people are responsible

Samba

09-23-04, 01:12 PM

It may be easier but it'll be less effective, in my opinion...

By the way, if we are removing 'potential' hazards from society, let's get rid of many of the herps we keep. Some are large and venomous, and could present a danger. Let's get rid of men who may beome rapists and serial killers. (Can't trust any of them, I tell you). Let's remove alcohol, so there is no more drunk driving (which my state, New Mexico, has an EXTREMELY high level of DWI accidents and accident-related deaths each year...)

There are many potential hazards. You can't remove them all. There always going to be a risk of something happening to somebody.

Shad0w

09-23-04, 01:15 PM

Samba, maybe, but when has the govt done anything thats effective :) They always take the easiest way out... thats my point :D

El_Gringo

09-23-04, 01:16 PM

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks1.jpg

Samba

09-23-04, 01:19 PM

LMFAO El Gringo!!!!

Shad0w, I get your point. SOrry for the rant... LOL

:::Still looking at Arnold:::

LMAO, boy, that is funny!

Matt_K

09-23-04, 01:33 PM

How many deaths are there per month at the hands of Pit Bulls in Toronto???

How many deaths are there at the hands of Guns, Knives and other violent acts a month in Toronto???

Have they done anything about the guns?? Have they done anything about the violence that's going on daily in Toronto???

Nope.. But hey, let's ban a breed that's HARDLY killing people and allow these same people who are day in and day out shooting up neighbourhoods and snatching children off the street..

8 months in jail to a couple who locked their children in a CAGE in a basement for 13 years, but ban a breed of a dog that people hate... How is that fair???

They haven't even caught the ignorant peices of crap that shot that poor lady in the back who was buying a sandwhich for her daughter.. However, they've had the van in the police impound for 2 months that was involved in said shooting and JUST realized it 3 weeks ago??? C'mon..

Shad0w

09-23-04, 01:53 PM

LMFAO El Gringo!!!!

Nicky

09-23-04, 06:15 PM

While were at it lets ban side walks you can't trust those damn cracks it just takes one slip and fall the wrong way and snap goes your neck. Geez what are they trieing to do safety proof our world? It's ridiculous.
Torn on which side I agree with in this argument as i agree with alot of points each side said. Just gonna have to wait and see how it turns out I guess( Have the reached a desicion yet?)
Kayla

spidergecko

09-24-04, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Matt_K
How many deaths are there per month at the hands of Pit Bulls in Toronto???

How many deaths are there at the hands of Guns, Knives and other violent acts a month in Toronto???

Have they done anything about the guns?? Have they done anything about the violence that's going on daily in Toronto???

Nope..

Well, it is currently illegal (for the general public) to carry a gun, as well as large knives, on the street. Trying your argument again: "A dog attacks a kid and someone says, 'Have they done anything about the pit bulls? ... Nope ..' "

Matt_K

09-24-04, 12:55 PM

Yes, it is illegal, but everynight there's atleast one shooting that's reported..

But I understand where you're coming from and I do agree with some of what everyone is saying.. I see both sides of the argument.. I just don't think that banning Pit Bulls is the solution.. If people can't have Pits, they're going to get Roti's and every other large breed out there that can be considered a threat...

Something needs to be done to the owners of these dogs.. And not just a slap on the wrist and loss of their dogs when they do turn and attack someone.. Stiffer penalties.. Mandatory muzzles when out in public?? Something, anything.. We all shouldn't suffer because of the ignorant and uneducated dog owners...

They've reported another attack yesterday.. A woman walking through a park was attacked and had her leg broken by a dog (Pitbull). The dog was not on a leash at the time and some passers by were able to get the dog off the lady.. No description of the dog and no one has seen it since.. However, it was a Pit... or was it... Everything is a Pit these days..

Shad0w

09-24-04, 01:23 PM

Ya know.. this might seem silly to say...
but in some ways a pitt (or any large and powerful dog) could be more dangerous than a gun...

A gun is not going to go off without a person pulling the trigger... it doesnt have a mind of its own...

However, a pitt can decide to attack a person, or in the latest case, a jack russel without anyone pulling a trigger... the dog can decide to attack someone / thing all on its own...

Im not saying there might not be events that precipitated the attack, but ultimately its the dog's choice to attack...

Does this make sense or am I sounding as crazy as i think I am :)

I think its time for OTHER dog owners to really come down on those that feel the need to walk their dogs off a leash and unmuzzled.. they are ruining it for everyone

BWSmith

09-26-04, 10:20 AM

I have not kept up with this thread for a while, so I have no idea where it is. But just as a side note, I got bit by a 135 lb Doberman yesterday. Always been the sweetest dog, just decided to bite yesterday. No matter how well trained a dog it, it can get PMS too.

Matt_K

09-26-04, 10:25 AM

Any damage done?? Or was it just a nip???

I think that was the point so many people were trying to get across but so many people failed to realize..

Any dog can bite and just about any dog WILL...

-Matt

BWSmith

09-26-04, 10:36 AM

One puncture, one deep laceration, and alot of bruising to my hip. Good thing I wasn't turned the other way or I may have been singing soprano. No where near as bad as my Pitbull bites. But still quite a bit of damage for a 2 second attack. With my luck lately, a bee probably stung him at the exact moment I was petting him. It was my mom and step-father's dog.

proud2bcanadian

09-26-04, 10:37 AM

Last night someone was bit by a pit bull (supposedly) and it was on the front page of The Mississauga News. Two witnesses said that it would have gone for her throat if these two men didn't save her life. She suffered from a broken leg, and many punctures from the teeth.

Matt_K

09-26-04, 10:42 AM

That happened Thursday Night David... I posted about it up somewhere in this thread.. There's no positive ID on the dog, they're just saying it was a Pit..

proud2bcanadian

09-26-04, 11:47 AM

Oh really? lol, talk about not reading the whole article :p

Well, it was in the Mississauga News this morning, so I figured it happened last night.

Thanks,

Matt_K

09-26-04, 12:29 PM

It kills me how long it took to make the news then.!! Just goes to show how starved the Mississauga newspapers are for a story.. LOL..

It's funny how 7/10 of the stories you hear about involving Pit Bulls, NEVER show a pic of the actual dog.. It makes me wonder if they're not just claiming every cross bred dog to be a Pit...

Samba

09-27-04, 09:34 AM

Well, this may irk some of you, but here's my brand-new, purebred, soon-to-be-registered American Staffie pup, Cedar. (That's me holding her). Because of all the heat on Pitt owners, I got her 100% FREE. Yeah I know you're all pissed, but she won't go to a home where her owners will make her fight, or breed constantly, or make her aggressive. She'll be loved. =)

(Hope the pic comes out).

BWSmith

09-27-04, 09:40 AM

I have no problem with people owning whatever they wish, as long as they are responsible about it.

P.S. My dogbite hurts like hell today ;)

Diggy415

09-27-04, 10:07 AM

im in agreement with the last post, I own a rotti and i don't like pitts cause it's like the war going on, you hear it everywhere and are sick of it, some hate the owners and love the breed. I will not own one although I know i could handle one having the rotti, but i wouldn't mind the breeds banded (pitts) even the rotti's its sad others will cause us to have this done or in some states already where it's the more problimatic. I think they should outlaw when it does become a problem and stiff fines for those who break the law. Thank goodness the 250 homes im around I havn't seen a pitt runnning loose, but plenty of others that keep me busy running them to the shelter on my own or slamming on my brakes as they come out and chase my vehicle. I believe in justice you get what you deserve, if your dog bites or chases and scares, runs after someone then i hope you get justice. Never any end supply to the bad news we hear. Owners should go through more training and have their dog neutered or spayed unless they are a legitatement breeder/shower and owners of the current breeds in questions should have to check in with local animal control on a monthly basis with their dog to show papers and training is continuing and the dog should be socialized also. This article is with all breeds of dogs even chihuas :)

Samba

09-27-04, 10:39 AM

BW, sorry I hadn't read your post before regarding the bite... OUCH, a Dob can really crunch! Hope you feel better soon!

Diggy, while each is entitled to their own opinions, I consider myself to be extremely responsible and educated with this breed. I know what they are capable of, and I know this puppy is a complete angel.

I, of course, went through all the puppy dominence/aggression tests before agreeing to take her, and she passed with flying colors. She must have been the 'scape-goat' within the hierarchy of her litter because she is very submissive. She, like S80, (Sadie), will be housed properly, and well taken care of. She will not be used for breeding, (even though her confirmation is excellent and breed-worthy in my opinion, there are just too many pits out there). I will seriously hurt ANYONE who tried to take my dogs away from me.

As someone mentioned earlier, BLAME THE DEED, NOT THE BREED! (Love that slogan, by the way) =)

BWSmith

09-27-04, 11:26 AM

As a side note, we had 2 Pitts attack a 12 year old girl in Atlanta this weekend. A neighbor came out and shot the dogs. The dog owner was more concerned about the dogs than the girl and got in the line of fire to save the dogs. The owner is in critical condition from gunshot, one dog was killed, the other was shot but is going to survive until it is put down. The little girl that was attacked is stable but will probably require a great deal of reconstructive surgury on her face and head.

This is just an example of an irresponsible owner. He allowed the animals to roam free. In my opinion, 2 roaming pitts constitute a pack.

Shad0w

09-27-04, 11:44 AM

Jeezus...

I cannot believe the OWNER! Trying to protect the dogs that are tearing a kid apart?

SICK!

Samba

09-27-04, 12:04 PM

That's crazy. What a shame... any breed of dog should NOT be allowed to roam. It's irresponsible of the owner... their dogs could impregnate, or become pregnant, meaning more puppies we have to worry about; the dogs could hurt other animals and people; cause minor and major property damage; and become a general nusiance. People who allow this kind of behaviour should find a better home for their dogs, or have them put down.

BWSmith

09-27-04, 12:17 PM

or have them put down
The owner almost got put down in this case.

Curaniel

09-27-04, 01:09 PM

I'm not a dog-lover. But I do have a soft spot for the "underdogs" if you'll pardon the pun. A species ban doesn't solve the root of the problem, it just treats the symptoms. Start banning one animal, and where does it stop? How long do you think it would take for people to start deciding that all snakes are "dangerous animals"? A friend of mine who lives in Montgomery can't keep any kind of snake in his apartment because they're all listed as "dangerous." Fear the vicious ball python! It isn't a state ban, but it's still ridiculous. Pit bulls are also on that list at his apartment complex.

Banning pit bulls would completely rid the bad owners of all responsibility for their actions towards their animals. I may not love dogs, but I, for one, have never felt threatened by pit bulls. It's the Jack Russels that I hate. I have yet to meet one that isn't a psychotic little monster. But no matter how obnoxious I think they are, there are people who love them and care for them properly, and I'm not about to knock that. It's only the ones who go after me or my cats that I choose to have an issue with, no matter how much I dislike the breed in general. Deal with the specific owners causing the problems and don't punish everyone for some people's idiotic behavior.

...and in my part of Georgia, we've got attack skunks. I long for an angry possum instead...

BWSmith

09-27-04, 01:15 PM

I used to have an attack skunk. To bad in GA we can't have the black and white ones ;)

Samba

09-27-04, 01:36 PM

LMAO you guys are too funny!

BW, I caught that part about the owner being shot... what a guy! Willing to die for his dogs! I would too, but if my dogs were innocent.

And did this shooting occur as the dogs were attacking the girl, or right after? I'd cringe thinking the dogs are on the girls and some guy is standing there shooting at them....

I hope she walks away from this attack without the fear of dogs... most are really genuine animals, but you don't hear about the good animals in the everyday news... just the bad ones...

Matt_K

09-28-04, 05:14 PM

And here we go again.....

http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20040928-017/page.asp

The thing that stands out to me in this attack.. Even the Media are saying that the dogs were protecting thier property, i would have thought they would have used this as more leverage on banning (not that they won't).. Also, the owner of the dogs threw herself onto the young man so the dogs would bite her and not him...

It appears now that they're looking into banning or atleast cracking down on owners of ALL large breed dogs... Muzzle rule will be in affect very soon..

C'mon people, if you own a dog of ANY breed, be reponsible, use a leash and don't allow your dog to walk the streets ALONE..

Cruciform

09-28-04, 05:44 PM

The big issue with pit bulls is their strength and tenacity. We can debate the laws and safety factors till the cows come home, but if you get into a tussle with a put bull where blood is drawn, chances are the damage is going to be much more severe than with a lot of other dogs.

Even a pomeranian can kill, as was noted on CBC regarding an incident last year, but most of the "horrifying" attacks by dogs you hear about involve kids, because adults can fight off most breeds.

So we don't hear about the foiled attack where the adult male kicked the dogs ***, because nobody got hurt. But a pit bull can bring down a full grown man, and a lot of people are aware of that.

We have people here who are responsible owners, but if your dog knocks down a door or scales an 8 foot high fence and manages to rip a hole in someone, you can bet you'll be vilified in the news same as any other owner.

I don't see the government being willing to dicker over who the good and bad owners are. It's going to become a matter of when they come to euthanize people's dogs.

They mentioned on the radio today that Windsor will most likely be implementing Kitchener's pit bull bylaw immediately, with an exception made for AmStaffs.
I bet by next week no one will own a pit bull in Windsor, but the population of AmStaffs will go through the roof :)