Why are people so cheap?

[ilia]

I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but I have noticed many posts where people are looking to get cheap animals. Also when people come back form shows in Canada they say that most people just come to browse. I live in NJ and go to many shows in the country. All of the shows that I go to people are buying and the breeders make out pretty well.

So what are your opinions on this?

Ilia

[dank7oo]

Often it is just a matter of people liking the animals and not being able to really afford them.

Jason

[BoidKeeper]

The Canadian market is not the US market. There are a lot more people with a lot more money in the US so generally breeders do make out better.
Also I've found a lot of people in Canada don't care where they get their reptile from as long as they get it. They don't care where they get a ball or who produced it as long as they get a ball. Eventually when people get tired of losing animals they will either get out of the hobby because they are too cheap to pay for quality instead of wild caught garbage or they will see the difference and start to buy from breeders at shows or on line.
Don't get me wrong I have nothing against saving money or getting a good deal but with herps you get what you pay for. The other thing that bugs me is when people ask breeders if that is the best they can do on their price because they've seen so and so with them for cheaper. Sometimes they actually say that they can get a WC for x number of dollars and ask if the breeder can match that. That sort of thing happens a lot with GTPs and ETBs at shows in the US. People expect the CBB GTPs and ETBs to be the same price as the WC garbage.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Samba]

Sometimes you get what you pay for... I bought a beautiful patternless female leopard gecko for $30.00 bucks once only to have her die (still in quarentine) within two months. A lesson well learned! =)

[jungleguy]

me personally i love going to canada shows but only when the exchange rate is up:)

[mykee]

Trevor nailed it. The Canadian reptile community is not as "aged" as the American reptile community. We up here, are still a good ten years behind our brothers to the south. That and Canadians are not picky with what they get, but are REALLY picky when it comes to what they'll pay.

[seann]

Jason Is right, Some people like me, got to save a crap load of money for college or other expenses, I Personally get what i want, If i can negotiate for a price that fits my need i will hey i save a few bucks , and just because lets say somone that doesn't have their own website or a well known name average joe that breeds and sells snakes cheap doesn't mean you get what you pay for you have to know what you are buying first and be able to spot anything wrong when people buy corns off me i feed the lil guys infront of them and teach them about them just to make sure they know everything! but If you are going to grab a snake for a cheap price you bteter make sure that the Lil dude is eating, is healthy has no diesiese and you know what you are getting into I would not buy a snake for cheap before looking at the lil guy and making sure hes alright, and i am not down with keeping wild animals, I have paid for herps cheap and got a healthy lil dudes, but you can never be sure! just get your knowlege off the guy or gal you purchase off of before you suport some dude that dont give a sheet about his animals!

[dank7oo]

Exactly Sean. I have to pay for my entire university education, along with any other "wants" I have. Luckily I am going to get a crap load of scholarships (and if I am lucky a LOT from American colleges if I choose to go down south), but if I didnt I would not be in this hobby at all. My parents are also leniant, by loaning me all the money I need for my herpsand large purchases I dont have the money for at the time (just finished paying back a $2600 debt for a trip to Greece and Italy).

Again, like Samba said, you get what you pay for. I would never search out the cheapest animal I could find, but rather pay the extra 50, 100, 200 for an animals from a reputable breeder/seller.

Jason

[seann]

Hey to go to the states for college do you need to take satees? I wanna move to california and live beside Billie Joe!

[madison.s]

hey i buy a spotted python from ******** and found out it was a children and it was wc not cb and i paid alot of money for it. so a good name don't mean any thing these days

[ilia]

I really appreciate that everyone was so mature about this. I didn't want to start another war.

I'm only 15 but I'm willing to pay a few extra bucks for a quality animal. I feel bad for the reputable breeders that put so much hard work and time into their animals, only to have someone sell that same animal for 50% less.

Ilia

[rwg]

The premium of buying from a good breeder is only worthwhile if you care about getting high-end stuff. For "pet" animals, I wouldn't care who bred it so long as it was CBB and healthy. I go to the shows whenever I can even when I'm not buying. I love seeing what people are selling and how much it's going for. Call it market research. When I get into breeding you can bet I'll be buying premium stock, and paying whatever it costs to get it.

As for haggling, I dont see anything wrong with it. I dont do it much myself, because I'm not good at it, but you dont have to take it personally. You know what you're willing to sell your animals for...you can always say no. If I have $100 to spend, and you have something for 120 that I really want, I may ask you to make a deal. I'm not saying it's not worth 120. I just cant go any higher at the time. Again, you can say no. It's not personal, it's just business.

rg

[hhw]

Well, I think for the most part, reptiles cost more up here. There are the exceptions of course. Now, considering how cost of living is less here, and thus supposedly the cost of breeding, that doesn't really make that much sense. In addition, since there is less money blowing around up here, you would expect prices to be lower... after all, market prices usually mean what the market is willing to bear, rather than just a fixed price that most people go along with while some others don't. Obviously, nobody sells their animals for less than what they think they could get and still sell them all. Therefore, I think the people selling their reptiles for cheaper (strictly referring to CBB here) are just more closely reflecting where supply meets demand.

With that said, I really don't believe in buying anything WC unless CBB is unavailable. People who know enough to come to forums like these especially should know better.

[Cruciform]

I'm not sure how the cost of living in Canada is supposed to be less than the US. We pay more for fuel and food, and are taxed more heavily. We pay less for medical out of pocket obviously, but that's just taken out of our paychecks anyway.

Our dollar does not go nearly as far either.

What surprises me about the reptile market is I've yet to see a breeder mention a no-offspring contract. People who breed show-dogs, cats, or other mammals will often have you sign a contract saying that you won't breed the animals or sell any accidental offspring, or put a clause in there that requires you to have the animal neutered or spayed in a specific amount of time.

Since there's no widely accepted system of providing papers and identification yet, it's impractical to implement, but I would not be surprised to see it happen in the coming years and have an impact on the way animals are priced and sold as well.

[Linds]

People are cheap for their own reasons, I know that I can't afford many of the animals I would like, but I don't bitch and whine. It will just have to wait until a time I can. I know this is often the case with many people, but some are just not willing to put much money in to a reptile for other reasons, possibly because they just do not see it as something of that worth. It was unbelievable the amount of people that would come in the store and not want to soend more than $20. They would complain at a $50 animal. It's pretty crazy. Too many people complain though, instead of jsut respecting the market and its relationship to their situation at the time. If you can't afford it then that is that, and you shouldn't exepct people to lower their prices on that account, or that it means that the animal is all of a sudden overpriced.

Originally posted by Cruciform

What surprises me about the reptile market is I've yet to see a breeder mention a no-offspring contract. People who breed show-dogs, cats, or other mammals will often have you sign a contract saying that you won't breed the animals or sell any accidental offspring, or put a clause in there that requires you to have the animal neutered or spayed in a specific amount of time.


Really? We've always had show dogs, and anytime we've purchased them the contract has been the same - we cannot spay/neuter the animal, but can only breed it to an animal approved by the breeder. I thought all show dogs were supposed to remain intact, unless they were poor examples of the breed.

[hhw]

I know we pay less rent, I'm pretty certain we pay less for food (you may get bigger portions for fast food in the US, but that's about it), and I think we pay about the same for fuel (cheaper in Canada right at the moment, or last week anyway), not to mention many more Americans commute long distances and/or do much more highway driving resulting in much more fuel used. Insurance also costs an arm and a leg in the US, whereas our health care is included (as you mentioned) and our auto insurance is a fraction of the price without even looking at currency exchange. Electricity and other energy is also much more abundant in Canada, and is also less expensive. All in all, it's much more affordable to live in Canada.

As for contracts not to breed, I seriously doubt too many people pay much money for anything high end without intentions to breed so I can't see that happening anytime soon, if ever.

[BoidKeeper]

and found out it was a children and it was wc not cb and i paid alot of money for it.
How did you find out it was WC? There has been a band on exporting wild life from Aussie for years.
Cheers,
Trevor

[capsicum]

Originally posted by Linds
Really? We've always had show dogs, and anytime we've purchased them the contract has been the same - we cannot spay/neuter the animal, but can only breed it to an animal approved by the breeder. I thought all show dogs were supposed to remain intact, unless they were poor examples of the breed.

Linds, you are right. Show-quality animals can not be sexually altered, otherwise they are forbidden at shows. You can also buy breeding-quality animals that are not show animals (choice of the breeder, however the offspring is worth more if they have titles). Pet-quality is (generally) always on a spay/neuter contract.

This is all semi-new to me, as I am investing in 2 purebred boxers, hopefully to breed when they are older. The rules are immense! As for other animals, I breed hairless rats that I sell with pedigrees, but only a few will have breeding rights. Now, I can't control if the buyer will or won't breed them, but I hope that they will take the time to investigate the pros and cons :)

TK

[madison.s]

well BoidKeeper i took it to my vet. Dr. Markus Luckwaldt
at Amherst Veterinary hospital and he told me it was .it cost me 150 for the snake and 100 for the vet bill .well live and learn.life go's on in the snake world.lol

[Tim_Cranwill]

LOL, how could a Vet know if it's WC or CB? :D

[madison.s]

because he's is one of the top herp vet's in canada.that's how lol.

[Tim_Cranwill]

As for cheap people, I don't know why some people are so cheap. One of my best buddies is REALLY cheap and it bugs the H#LL out of me! lol :D There is nothing wrong with trying to spend less money but it is usually true that "you get what you pay for".

I would be kind of offended if someone offered me considerably less for an animal if I didn't know them at all. But the "why animals are priced a certain way" debate has a lot to do with that, as does the "people selling for less than others" debate...IMO.

In my mind, if I want an albino ball python but don't have the $3500 (or whatever the going rate may be), then I can't afford that snake. I wouldn't offer the breeder $2500 or even $3000. I might haggle a bit but not by more than 10%. Most of the time, I pay asking price and that's that. I try to live by the "do unto others..." cliché with respect to buying things.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Originally posted by lizlady
because he's is one of the top herp vet's in canada.that's how lol.

And does he have some sort of magical X-ray gun to see inside the snake and tell where it was born? :p

I admit, based on condition and behavior, you can sometimes tell WC from CB but it can go both ways. CB animals can be mistreated and end up in just a poor conditions as some WC animals. It's a guess at best. :)

[hip]

I am most certain that that python is not wc the export ban has been in effect since the 70's and has been updated and added to since implementation do a search on one of the search engines for the export ban in Australia and what it covers, find a detailed one print it and give it to your vet to read over.


Hip

[justinO]

WOW, i want to live in BC! If your gas is cheaper than in the states, you are LUCKY. Even with conversion, we are paying over $2.30 a GALLON here in ontario and have for years, and people from the US gripe when it goes over $2.00 a gallon there.

Our cost of living might be less, but as someone else mentioned, we get taxed up the A$S, so we end up making a hellofalot less money.

As for the question about animals, we pay a LOT more for most reptiles up here in Canada simply because if numbers. We do not have the same access to captive bred animals and have to pay more for what we want.

We complain not because we are cheap, but cuz we SEE what the prices are like in the states. I mean really, $300 US for a granite burm..... $600 US for a WOMA!!!! Of course they will sell at those kinda prices, and if we are lucky, buy them if we can get them over the border legit.

The daytona show was the most amazing experience, but it also made it harder to come back home and pay twice as much for the same reptile.

Everything I said refers to captive bred of corse, is there anything else worth owning? ;)

Just my thoughts on this anyway

Jessy
:)

[hip]

From the Sunday Mail (Adelaide, Australia) 31st May 1998


Fauna export bans to lift


Canberra: The export of Australian Wildlife is expected to be made legal.

A senate committee is set to next month recommend lifting a 30 year old ban on wildlife exports following the failure of anti-smuggling laws to stop the lucrative trade.

In the export firing line are kangaroos, dingoes, possums, snakes and lizards, and sulphur crested cockatoos.

Experts predict a legalised wildlife trade could be worth millions of dollars to Australia.

But angry conservation groups warn Australian natives are unsuitable as pets and could die overseas.

"Many of these animals need specialist care and they would be away from their natural environment," an animal Liberation spokesman said.

Animal welfare groups say Australia must continue to fight the illegal trade, estimated to be worth $400 million a year.

The Woodley committee into commercialization of Australian native wildlife will present its findings on June 23.

However, committee sources said it would bring down a near unanimous recommendation to change Federal wildlife protection Laws.

This would pave the way for farmers and commercial operators to breed and sell wildlife overseas.

[hip]

Here it is from the aussie gov web site a bit long but a good read and helps keep us informed




CHAPTER 3 - CURRENT REGULATIONS AND POLICY
Introduction
3.1 Under Section 92 of the Australian Constitution, trade in fauna within Australia cannot be prevented. However, the control of wildlife use, both commercially and non-commercially, can be regulated and power to do this is vested in both Federal and state legislatures. Each state and territory has legislation which controls the keeping and movement of wildlife, and regulations which govern regional and local conditions such as farm practice, cull quotas, and provision of products for the domestic market.

3.2 However, while most regulations concerning commercial use of wildlife lie within the ambit of state government control, the Federal government plays an important role in some areas (such as production processes, post-marketing and industry development) [1] and, critically, in the control of exports. [2] Thus regardless what each state government does, because exports are controlled by the Federal government and because the economic development of wildlife industries depends to a large extent on obtaining overseas markets, ultimate control primarily lies with the Federal government.

3.3 Control of actions relating to the environment in Australia and in particular actions relating to wildlife, occurs at the Federal level through a suite of over 30 pieces of legislation. The statute most relevant to this inquiry is the Wildlife Protection (Regulation of Exports and Imports) Act 1982 which controls the export of all wildlife and wildlife products from Australia and into Australia.

Federal Legislation
Wildlife Protection (Regulation of Exports and Imports) Act 1982
3.4 The Wildlife Protection (Regulation of Exports and Imports) Act 1982 is the legislative basis for Federal control over the export and import of wildlife and wildlife products. Controls under the Act apply to all relevant transactions by museums, zoos, scientific institutions, commercial organisations, tourists, migrants and the general public. 'Wildlife' is not defined in the Act but is usually interpreted in its broadest sense and refers to all animals and plants subject to regulations under the Act. The terms 'animal' and 'plant' are defined.

3.5 The two main objectives of the Act are: (1) to put into legislative framework Australia's obligations under the international Convention on Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) which was signed in Washington on 3 March 1973; and (2) to further the protection and conservation of the wild fauna and flora of Australia and of other countries through the regulation of export and import of plants (and plant parts) and animals (and animal parts).

3.6 The administration of the Act is primarily undertaken by the Wildlife Protection Section of Environment Australia. [3] The assessment of applications for approved management programs (section 10 of the Act) and controlled specimens (section 10A of the Act) is undertaken by the Wildlife Population Assessment Section of Environment Australia. Enforcement of the Act is undertaken primarily by the Australian Customs Service with whom the Wildlife Protection Section works in close cooperation. Enforcement is also assisted by the Australian Federal Police. Disputed decisions are subject to review by the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. The Act also provides for exemptions of certain specimens used by traditional inhabitants (Australian Aboriginal people, Torres Strait Islanders and Papua New Guineans).

3.7 The Act provides for permits or authorities to be issued for a variety of purposes and specifies the criteria which must be met before they can be granted. Any application to export a live specimen must be approved via a permit and the Act lists the conditions which must be satisfied before the Minister can issue a permit. Permits to export live native Australian animals may be granted only in four types of circumstances:

the commercial export of live invertebrates and freshwater fish which have been bred in captivity or taken under an approved management program;
the export of certain species of live native birds as household pets (listed in Schedule 7 of the Act), by persons that have met specific criteria;
transactions involving a scientific institution where the institution is primarily non-commercial, has demonstrated the capacity to undertake the proposed research, makes the results of such research publicly available; and
transfers between publicly owned Australian and overseas zoos is permitted provided the zoos can demonstrate they have a high standard of management, animal husbandry and accommodation and have the facilities and expertise to properly care for the animals being sought.
3.8 Because these conditions do not include any provision for a private individual or company to export live specimens for commercial purposes, this activity is by default prohibited.

3.9 Section 10 of the Act regulates wild harvested specimens (that is, products obtained from native wildlife). [4] Specimens may be harvested under a Management Program or as a Controlled Specimen. A Management Program or Controlled Specimen Program may not be declared unless legislation relating to the protection, conservation or management of the animals or plants is in force in the state or territory [5] and, in the opinion of the Minister, the legislation is effective. This requirement can, in special circumstances, be waived for Controlled Specimens.

3.10 The major difference between the two arrangements are that in Management Programs the Minister must be `satisfied' about a number of criteria in making a decision, while under Controlled Specimens similar criteria must be `taken into account' when making a decision. Management Programs are generally required for larger, more established harvesting proposals, while Controlled Specimen declarations are used for smaller, start up operations where there is often less information on the biology and ecology of the species in question. The Act provides for Management Programs to be declared where there is sufficient information available on the biology of the species proposed for harvesting to ensure that it will not be to the irreversible detriment of the species or its habitat. Management Programs are usually administered by state government agencies and reflect state-wide management for the particular species concerned. The criteria for a Management Program are listed in Appendix IV of this report. The Act provides an opportunity for public consultation on proposed Management Programs and Controlled Specimens and concerned persons are invited, by annual public notice, to register their interest in receiving copies of proposals for comment before the programs are approved and declared.

3.11 The Controlled Specimens provision allows for commercial harvesting and trade, under strict conditions, where it would be inappropriate to insist on a Management Program and where it is consistent with the object of the Act not to declare an Approved Management Program. Such circumstances might include short-term salvage harvesting, small scale harvesting of common species, the developmental stages of Management Programs and the importation of CITES listed species from overseas. All harvesting proposals are currently assessed in accordance with the principles of ecological sustainability and conservation of biological diversity. The criteria for a Controlled Specimen are also listed in Appendix IV of this report.

3.12 Since coming into effect in May 1984, there have been three major amendments to the Wildlife Protection (Regulation of Exports and Imports) Act 1982. [6] In addition, about every two years, Schedules 1 and 2 are amended to reflect changes to Appendices I and II of CITES.
here is the link to the page
http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rrat_ctte/wild/report/c03.htm

Hip

[Darren179]

I dont think that our market is as "Cheap" as some might think. If you look at k i n g s n a k e .com alot of the animals on there are fairly priced not saying that there isnt the odd low ball but there is nowhere the range there is on our site. Kingsnake classifieds costs money to advertise so the majority of people on there are serious breeders then you turn around and come here and you see leopards for 10 and dragons for 20 because its a bunch of people who breed only to make a quick hundred bucks and dump them all on here for dirt cheap. if it costed money to post it would help establish the serious Breeders from the Quick cash breeders I mean if you look at a 15 year old kid who has 2 dragons and he can sell 20 dragons make his 400 bucks and probably does not have to pay hydro or maybe even for his own crickets and such because his parents do, hes happy as a fly in ****. However if a
serious breeder who bred many of dragons was to do that they would make almost no money and it would become very difficult for the serious breeders to keep good bloodlines and such within thereptile community.

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

TREVOR:

I agree....with u.

Cya...

Tony

[BoidKeeper]

Thanks Tony. Oh I think I remember the details of the albino het deal.lol
Hip,
Well what can I say buddy, I rest my case.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Linds]

lizlady,
I would definitely consider finding a new vet. There is absolutely no way anyone can tell if a snake is WC by examination. Any good vet would know this, especially coupled with the fact that absolutely nothing has been able to be legally exported from Australia in decades. Animals in pet stores can especially pick up some off the problems that WC animals may have, being housed in such close quarters with them, as well as shared equipment.

[hip]

Yup trev your case is rested I agree fully I also agree with linds time for a vet change. There are a few excellent reptile vets here in ontario and some keep or have kept various snakes including boids.


hahahahaha slipped post 500 in under the radar.


Hip

[Kimo]

just out of curiosity Hip, in one of your posts you quoted, it stated that Australia was considering lifting the ban, due to all the illegal importing that continues to go on, and hopefully make money off of it....so wouldn't it stand to reason that these animals are still available WC?

Josh

[Linds]

Josh,
While it is not a complete impossibility that some Aussie animals may be smuggled, it isn't likely that you will find one in a store. Pet stores have their sources, their regular distributors and private breeders that keep their shelves stocked. The most common Aussie animals that are in the pet trade have very little dollar value as well, such as Beardies and Spotted Pythons, and are easily enough reproduced in captivity, making smuggling these animals simply not worth it.

[beardieguy]

I breed bearded dragons and I know where their lines are from. They were not cheap and they are all live and kicking. My female is going to lay her 6th clutch anytime here. I have noticed that down east they are selling them for anywhere from $20 - $50 per dragon and it is hard for people like myself to compete with that. Mine go for a fair $80 - $100 all depends on their coloring.

I do not like cheap people. I am looking for a gtp and I know that they are going anywhere from 900 to 1500 easy. You want a good pet then pay the price.

[Linds]

Beardieguy,
Beardies are generally considered lower end animals. When I said they had little dollar value, that is in comparison to higher end animals, that some people may feel is worth the risk to smuggle. While some people may consider $100 or even $300 to be a decent enough price tag, that is still generally 'low end' on the markets scale.

[Jeff_Favelle]

WOW, i want to live in BC! If your gas is cheaper than in the states, you are LUCKY. Even with conversion, we are paying over $2.30 a GALLON here in ontario and have for years,

That's cheaper than BC. We pay anywhere from 80 cents to 95 cents per litre! Even at 80 cents/litre, that's like $3.20 per gallon!!! I'm not sure who said we have cheaper gas than the US, but that is NOT true! Friends just got back from driving to Vegas. Every single place was $1.75US per gallon or cheaper.

A wild-caught spotted python? LOL! I needed that laugh. Tough day out here sifting silt and clay all day. WC spotted she says..... too funny.

[Jeff_Favelle]

And no one is going to risk jail time to import a beardie or a spotted python, LOL!! These people would be smuggling Perentie's, Lacies, Blackheads, Chondros, etc etc. Not spotted pythons.

[Siretsap]

Originally posted by hhw
not to mention many more Americans commute long distances and/or do much more highway driving resulting in much more fuel used.

Well actually, it's when you do your traveling on the highway that it's more economic for your car, when you always do town traveling, your fuel consumption almost doubles!!!

Electricity and other energy is also much moreabundant in Canada, and is also less expensive.

Actually it's false. The Americans pay much less for their electricity even if it is our own they buy... They signed a contract many many years ago that the cost for electricity they imported from Canada wouln't budge for 100 years.... So at the moment they pay less than we do for our own cdn product...

[Jeff_Favelle]

They pay less than you do in Montreal. BC is damn cheap for electricity. Like 6 cents per KW/h!! Try New York where its like 30 cents US (50 cents CDN) for a kilowatt!! Yikes.

Good call on the highway driving. For sure.

[BoidKeeper]

I think we can consider the spotted topic closed. So let's all drop our sarcastic guns and move back on to how cheap we Canadians are.:p
Cheers,
Trevor

[hhw]

Originally posted by Siretsap
Well actually, it's when you do your traveling on the highway that it's more economic for your car, when you always do town traveling, your fuel consumption almost doubles!!!
We're talking about fuel usage, not efficiency here. If you drive 100 miles to work everyday instead 1, you're going to be using more gas no matter how fuel efficient your driving speed is. If you have to travel farther to work, you're going to end up spending more money on gas.

[Cruciform]

To quantify the bit about show animals, when we were shopping for Sheltie's (for a family pet, not for show) it was standard that we sign off that we wouldn't be breeding the dog.

Is there alternative pricing possibly, which would make it different if you don't intend to show them?

[Cruciform]

According to the CIA Factbook at CIA.gov, Americans have a GDP per Capita purchasing power of $37,800.

While Canada has one of $29,700.

That's an $8000 dollar a year difference in GDP value per person. And quite a bit of extra snake money for Americans.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Is that $38K US compared to $29K CDN? If so, that's even MORE of a difference.

[Cruciform]

From the wording it appears to be in equivalent American funds.

[Linds]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
That's cheaper than BC. We pay anywhere from 80 cents to 95 cents per litre! Even at 80 cents/litre, that's like $3.20 per gallon!!!

LOL... I've lived in Ontario most of my life, and I can say for the past few years I've been paying at least 80 cents per litre as well! Only time it went down was in the GTA during the SARS period :p I don't even live in that area so I reaped no benefits. I wish I was paying only 57 cents! LOL Justin where are you getting your gas?

[Matt.B]

out here in calgary the native reserves dont pay tax so when the price spikes theres like an hour long line to get gas at th reserve lol.
Matt

[Siretsap]

Originally posted by hhw
We're talking about fuel usage, not efficiency here. If you drive 100 miles to work everyday instead 1, you're going to be using more gas no matter how fuel efficient your driving speed is. If you have to travel farther to work, you're going to end up spending more money on gas.

Well it applies for everyone anywhere if you look at it this way.

But let's say someone has to do 5 miles in town to get to work in traffic, and an other has to do 8 miles on a highway cause it's farther, the 8 miles will still be cheaper on gaz than the 5 miles.

[Siretsap]

Originally posted by Matt.B
out here in calgary the native reserves dont pay tax so when the price spikes theres like an hour long line to get gas at th reserve lol.
Matt

lucky you, cause the natives around here keep the price a cent lower than the others... not much of a difference on a tank

[justinO]

Originally posted by Linds
LOL... I've lived in Ontario most of my life, and I can say for the past few years I've been paying at least 80 cents per litre as well! Only time it went down was in the GTA during the SARS period :p I don't even live in that area so I reaped no benefits. I wish I was paying only 57 cents! LOL Justin where are you getting your gas?

I did conversion to US dollars per gallon :P

So we are paying around $2.50 USD a gallon for gas, or yes, $3.20 CND, and have for years. (Americans are scared of our loonie dollars and liters of gas, so I converted it for any of them reading........... KIDDING!!!)

Jess
:)

[Linds]

LOL :p Yeah I get strange looks when I start talking about or pull out a bunch of loonies or toonies when I'm shopping over the border :p

[hhw]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
I'm not sure who said we have cheaper gas than the US, but that is NOT true!

I'll admit to saying that, and I now retract it... I was converting prices based on kilos to pounds intead of gallons to liters, quite a glaring miscalculation on my part, my bad :P

I would still bet good money though, that the average American spends more money on gas than the average Canadian... rush hour traffic going in and out of Seattle up to a good 100km out of the city on the interstate makes Granville Street in Vancouver look clear.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I'll buy that hhw. My sister and her husband just moved back from Tacoma, and they were AMAZED at the traffic on the I5 and the commute that average people take to work. Much much more than in Canada, for sure.

[Linds]

Originally posted by hhw
I would still bet good money though, that the average American spends more money on gas than the average Canadian... rush hour traffic going in and out of Seattle up to a good 100km out of the city on the interstate makes Granville Street in Vancouver look clear.

Hmmm... Canadians don't commute? My dad has a 1.5 hour (ALL highway) drive to work. A friend of mine has an hour drive to get to work, 6 days a week. Another friend of mine has to drive 2 hours. One of my ex's used to have to drive 1.5 hours to the initial place, then drive around from job site to job site the whole day. Mike has had several jobs in the past which he has had to commute. Most people I know either currently, or have had at some point, a job in which they had to commute. I've never had a job where I've had to drive more than 25 minutes to get there, so I'm probably one of the luckier ones that I know. Although there were several years as a teen in which I spent 1/2 - 3/4 of the day driving, usually back and forth from Toronto and around the Niagara Region. I still drive a fair amount, but not as much... there isn't anything in my town so I usually have to go to another city when I need something, but most of my friends live quite a distance from where I am. Rush hour sucks... I have little patience to sit in stop and crawl traffic... or in any kind of traffic for that matter... hehehe... I'm under the silly impression everyone on the road should part and let me through :p I don't know... from my experiences I wouldn't put Canadian driving below anyone else's :p

[Cruciform]

My first month working in Toronto back in 98, on a good day it was 2 hours each way. During construction it was FIVE each way. Not fun at all.

I sure appreciated finding a place :)

Now it's 45 minutes from St. Thomas to work in London. I kind of miss the 5 minute walk I had last year, but at least I own the property now.

[hhw]

Originally posted by Linds
Hmmm... Canadians don't commute? My dad has a 1.5 hour (ALL highway) drive to work. A friend of mine has an hour drive to get to work, 6 days a week. Another friend of mine has to drive 2 hours. One of my ex's used to have to drive 1.5 hours to the initial place, then drive around from job site to job site the whole day. Mike has had several jobs in the past which he has had to commute. Most people I know either currently, or have had at some point, a job in which they had to commute. I've never had a job where I've had to drive more than 25 minutes to get there, so I'm probably one of the luckier ones that I know.

It's not that Canadians don't commute, but they don't commute nearly as much as Americans. Just like at the population densities; the vast majority of people who work in cities in Canada live within city limits. I can't say that about Toronto as I haven't spent nearly enough time there, but it's definitely the case in Vancouver and Montreal. Driving from Burnaby to Downtown Vancouver is a minor fraction of the commute from Olympia to Seattle. Not to mention, despite only needing to have 2 people in the car for the carpool lane, virtually nobody is ever in it in Seattle. It's just SUV after SUV of suburbanite.

Here's some statistics I dug up from
http://earthtrends.wri.org/searchable_db/index.cfm?theme=6&variable_ID=292&action=select_countries

Very slow site though, so try not to cause a slashdot effect on it people :P

Anyway, for 2001, Liters per person
Canada: 1,189.8
United States: 1,623.8

Basically, we use 73% as much per person. Now, let's translate this into how much people are spending on gas:
1,189.8 x $0.845 = $1,005.38CDN
1,623.8 x $2.00(1.30) / 3.7854 = $1,115.31CDN
Canadian gas price from
http://www.mjervin.com/public%20resources/WPPS_Public.htm
United States gas price from http://www.csaa.com/global/articledetail/0,1398,1008010000%257C4588,00.html

Alright, so we spend about $100CDN less on gas. That pays for a lot of rodents, especially if you breed your own... I don't have the patience to look up insurance right now as I'm about to go to bed, but I'm certain we spend hundreds if not thousands less.

Anyway, I'd have to come up with a lot more figures to demonstrate that it's cheaper to breed herps up here, but I think you can get some of the line of reasoning I'm coming from.

Now, I'm pretty certain that pastel ball pythons are cheaper up here... I'd assume most higher end herps would be, since although we have less poor up here, we also have much less rich, thus the market for the high end is much smaller, even proportionally to our overall population/market. Until the price difference covers the costs of CITES permits and additional shipping costs, I think that's reasonable.

Lower end herps on the other seem to cost a lot more here in general... For ones in shorter supply, that's understandable but for those that are not... you can see why some people will sell cheaper than the perceived "market price".

Now, I'm not saying breeders are making too much money or anything like that... but I bet a lot of us check the pricing on herps in the states and wonder why we have to pay more. So, if you're having trouble selling your herps, take a closer look at what your real costs are... for some herps, I bet you're making a tidier profit than you realize. For others, well, it's unfortunate that that's the case but as long as you're recovering costs, it's more about keeping the animals than selling them, right? Or perhaps it's time to start working with some other species...

Hope I'm not offending anyone... just presenting the other side of the coin.