Please help! desorientated imperator

[Ivan (NL)]

Call my vet first thing in the morning but also like some of your opinions...

Came just home, wanted to fed my smallest imperator en noticed someting shocking. Took her out her cage halfway her tail when she started circling with her head. Making circels en going upside down making strange moves totally out of control.

Know some dont like it, but i got my female's together but now i'm in a panic!

Took her directly out and in another smaller cage seperate. In the cage she seems fine but took her out another time en when i make a little move holding her at the end, she starts again making deoriented moves like there's something extremely wrong in her head??

The other female's seem to be fine don't make strange moves.

Had the strange one in quarantaine for 6 months, my vet checked her out en seemed to be fine. Put her 3 months ago with the other ones en no problem at all. Took her out two weeks ago, nothing wrong, tried to feed her a small rabbit wich she didn't take (first one). Tried last week a rat, she also refuses but also nothing seemed to be strange. Today she also refuses offcourse and seemed to be sick in the head.

Read from Melissa Kaplan about IBD and tried to put her on the back. No problem at all and in this little cage noting seems wrong...

Anyone some idea??

Liked to know what could have gone wrong with this snake in such a small time?

Off course I call my vet tomorow but keeps on going through my mind and makes me verry verry sad :confused:

[Ivan (NL)]

I've been watching the boa for almost an hour. The symptoms are the following: when she comes up with her head she falls backwards. Not all of the time but i guess 8 out of 10 times.

She feels strong, is in perfect condition, has a clean mouth. In my opinion nothing wrong with at all exept her head falling backwards

[jmkhets]

IBD?

[jmkhets]

SOUNDS LIKE IT...SORRY

[Ivan (NL)]

I read this article:

http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html

Can lay the boa on its back but she is in a few seconds in normal position.

My question: can IBD goes so fast?? A week ago nathing was wrong...

Another question: what to do?

What to do with the other 5 girls??

Are they certainly infected, is there a way to find out??

etc etc

Please... can use a little help...

[Linds]

Firstly, this is a prime example of why it is best to house snakes seperately.

IBD is very rare, and many other more common problems can have similar symptoms. I'm not inclined to believe it is due to something toxic in the environment, as the other ones would likely be affected in the same way, but that can cause neurological problems. As can certain parasitic or bacterial infections. How small is she compared to the other snakes? Is it possible she was injured? I would recommend quarantining all of the girls [individually] until the problem is isolated. Good luck and keep us updated.

[Ivan (NL)]

I know it's better to seperate them but build an enormous cage at the time for all of them and found out later. Off course this is the worst thing of housing snake's together, one getting ill.

Linds:

IBD is to me a difficult word and a vague illness. The big question for me at this time is: can such a thing (IBD) cause these symptoms (falling backwards with the head) within a couple of days???

She is the smallest one with 4,5 feet and verry thin, the biggest one is 7 feet and verry massive. I've got plateau's of wood they can lay on en climb through so it could be she got hurt crusched by her big girlfriend?? Hurt her neck?

I have no idea what to think of about other more common problems can have similar symptoms??

Could you give me a couple of examples of what could be wrong?

What happened to my snake, because it's a fine animal and i've always been pretty sure of her...

The only way I can describe the symptoms is:

Laying down nothing is wrong, by handling when she's comming up with her head she falls backwards making an unnatural circkel with her head.

Please, all information is welcome

[BoidKeeper]

You could seperate them, or you could lose them both.
Do you have mites? If so they will all have it if one does.
For more infor on IBD run a search or get the boa constrictor manual. Have they been exposed to any chemicals? I knew a guy that lost a burm because he did not follow my instructions on how to use vapona and just placed a chunk of it in a cage inside a plastic bag. Before the burm died he acted like he had IBD. He also had mites so at first I thought it was IBD because he was also housing the burm with two BCI but it came on fast and killed fast and there were now signs before the vapona was placed in the cage.
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

Isn't there a rule here about linking Kaplan's caresheets? LOL! Well there should be. ;) J/K

[Ivan (NL)]

Boidkeeper:

I have no mites and seperated the animals yesterday.

Also nothing with chemicals.

edit: also never had mite the last two years and never used vapona!

[BoidKeeper]

No mites is a good thing because that is the fastest way it is tranmitted. IBD is the HIV/Aids of the snake world. A snake can have it and pass it on for two years before you ever see any syptoms of it. So just because they are seperate now, if it is IBD you may see it appear with in the next two years. If this snake dies and you find out it did die from IBD you have an ethical duty not to sell those any other animals for at least two years to avoid spreading it to others.
As far as I know, and this may have changed, IBD can only be tested for post moderm. If I were you I would be looking for places to have it tested and how they want the snake kept after death.
Like I said there is a chapter on IBD in the Boa Constrictor Manual as well as a section on other boa disorders that often look like IBD but aren't. One such disorder that can look like IBD is bacterial meningitis.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Ivan (NL)]

I took the animal yesterday to my vet who gave her a injection. Must be result in 24 hours he said. My boagirl is worse than yesterday...

BoidKeeper:

What could I do with the rest?

Is there anything I can do?

I have 6 females (5 in short time) and 2 males. The males are housed seperate from the females en seperated from eachother. Also I have a big Burmese python.

Fear the worst things for all my snakes. Is this the reality or am I taking it a bit to serious??

Is there something to do preventive?

What should my vet be looking for?

And how do I find out about the rest? I understand that the females are a big risk but the males in their cages at the other side of the room, are they also a big risk?

[Linds]

What kind of tests did your vet perform? What kind of shot did he give your snake? What were his comments? The symptoms your snake are displaying can be a wide variety of illnesses, so your vet should be working on isolating the cause through bloodwork, tracheal cultures, and fecal floats and smears, in combination with visual inspection and a detailed description of the snakes husbandry.

We can't tell you what to do with the rest, other than quarantine them (both from your collection as well as eachother). Again, although it should never be ruled out, IBD is also rarely ever found in captive collections. Depending on the problem, and your practices, the males could also be at as much risk as the females were for contracting whatever the problem is.

[Invictus]

Don't those symptoms also describe the neurological disorder known as "Stargazing"?

[Invictus]

Never mind... I just did some reading and now I remmeber that stargazing is a symptom of IBD.

[bistrobob85]

I'll never gaze at the stars again!

[BoidKeeper]

I can't add anything different than what Linds said. I will say thought that it kills pythons faster than boas so if infact it is IBD you brum might be next. Like Linds I would like to hear more about the vet visit. You were short on details.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Ivan (NL)]

Linds:

My vet injected the snake with something I can't exactly remember the name. Sorry am a bit down about everything...

Today the symptoms were worse than yesterday so he gave her the final shot. Took two bloodsamples wich will be sent tomorow to a special Clinic overhere. Will take 10-14 days before I have the results. The head he put in a cooler/freezer so if they need to check the head it's availeble.

Checked my other females but still nothing seems to be wrong...

[Ivan (NL)]

Boidkeeper:

I was short about details cause there weren't many.

When I got the results of her blood I wil post every little detail :-)

Only thing I can say is that my last two nights were extremely bad and fear the worst (as always).

[BoidKeeper]

I'm very sorry to hear about your loss.
Where did all these animals come from, pet stores, breeders etc?
Take care,
Trevor

[Ivan (NL)]

Boidkeeper:

Thnx for sharing the loss. There was nothing to do for the 3 year old imperator. She went over time after time, when turning her head she moves with the upper side down. Went pretty fast in 2 days.

The animals came from diverent people who had them as pets. Never bought one in a petstore. My first from a breeder and the other ones from people at home who were selling the snakes for different reasons (becomming to big, lost their interesed etc.)

Bought my first boa at 3 weeks old. A year later two other animals en a few months after that someone had to get rid of one and took it overhere.

Had those 4 females for 2-3 years. Last year someone liked to see her boa's next to mine. I took them in for 5 months quarantaine. Nothing seemed wrong from day 1. Place the biggest one in the group and the little one a month later.

Nothing wrong for few months but for twee weeks ago the little one refused a prey. Could be the heat, could be her first rabbit but I didn't mind. Tried again last week a rat but she refused again. This week another try but when I took her out the cage I saw immediately the symptoms.

The other 5 have no symptoms at all and my 2 males neither.

To be honest...going out of my mind just not knowing what's going on, waiting for 10 days til 14 days for the blood sample results. And then? Knowing my snake collection all infected can't describe the feeling but feels pretty bad.

Next year al the females 3-6 years old, bought my self a beautifull extra male last week. Been looking for one almost half a year, tottaly in love with this new addition and now finding out having some retrovirus with my females.

[Linds]

Originally posted by Ivan (NL)
Been looking for one almost half a year, tottaly in love with this new addition and now finding out having some retrovirus with my females.

Like I mentioned before, the chance of having IBD infected animals makes winning the lottery look like a 1 in 5 chance. It is very, very rare. Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions ;) If you want to test for IBD, your vet /lab tech will need to do a biopsy on the liver of the animal and have that analyzed. So sorry that she ended up passing, hopefully the vet can get back to you with the results so you know what to do with the rest of your collection, and perhaps put your mind at ease. Please keep us updated.

[Ivan (NL)]

thnx Linds, the other boa's seemed to be fine till today. check them out every day but stil no symptoms, the results of the blood samples i got within a week or something.

[Ivan (NL)]

little update:

so far so good, fed all my females today rabbits and they are eating like nothing is wrong. also got no strange things at all yet.

think this week the bloodresult come in, keep all of you up to date!

[BoidKeeper]

Please do. Good luck.
Trevor

[Ivan (NL)]

Bad luck again...

Stil don't have the results of the bloodtest but now my biggest male starts throwing up his food.

First couple of weeks ago, thought could happen once mayby the change of the weather or something like that. Also refused food what bothers me.

Last week I found some poop so thougt it would be normal, tried to feed a bunny today but no interessed. Took the bunny out and saw again a little bit he throw up.

I'm again in total panic, first lost a female 3 weeks ago and now my male (housed seperate) is feeling bad.

Call my vet first thing in the morning but feel realy bad about my snakes :(

[BoidKeeper]

Make sure all their temps are correct and give the snake that puked a month so its stomach can settle. If you feed a snake right away after a regurg they will regurg again almost right away.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Ivan (NL)]

The snake that puked (my biggest 8 foot male) is here for 2.5 years. Is a 5 year old male nothing wrong with till recently.

The week before my female got strange in the head he puked out for the first time. Was 14 days after feeding, had his white poop and normally couple of days later comes the rest. In stead of comming out at the back he throw it out at the front. After acting silly he puked out a little bit. Called around because nothing like that ever happened overhere but most people said could be nothing at all. Last week I found a little normal poop was happy so tried to feed him today. Lights were out so didn't notice his second puke but found it after i removed the rabbit.

Could it be that his stomach is irritated or mayby he has "flagelaten" ??

Don't know the exact worth (worms?) but I tread it when noticed with flagyl.

I'm verry proud of my constrictors and are to me the most beautifull snakes. Have them for 3.5 years and all the time went nothing wrong. The last weeks everything goes wrong but I never changed the way I take care of them...

Think about calling my vet, comming overhere and check out and preventivly tread al my animals (monitors, skinks, burm and boa's)

Have lost one female but dont want to lose one of the rest.

[BoidKeeper]

They are all healthy until they get sick for the first time. What I'm saying is that it sounds like what your female had has spread. Wasn't your female housed with this male for a while?
Cheers,
Trevor

[Ivan (NL)]

The male was housed with 4 females till the last two came in. Put the new 2 females separate in quarantaine for half a year and seperated the male from the 4 females.

The new 2 females seemed to be in perfect health so after half a year I put them to the 4 I allready had for 3.5 years. After 2-3 months the smalles new female got strange in the head.

Never had any problems at all with my snakes until the last 3-4 weeks.

[BoidKeeper]

A Boa can have and spread IBD for two years before showing any symptoms.
Was the snake that is sick now ever housed with the one that died? If so then I think you had better get it away from your other animals before they get sick too.
Here are the facts as I understand them so far.
- You had one female dies and you don't from what yet.
- You had her housed with some of your other snakes.
- You now have a male that is regurgatating.
I think you should assum this snake may have what your female had until you can prove other wise.
What I would do is isolate all of those boas even if it meant sending them to someone else house for a while until I got some answers.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Ivan (NL)]

The male hasn't been housed together with the late female, see last reaction.

Had my vet overhere for an hour, my male had "flagelaten" and got a 5 day cure "flagyl".

My vet has taken samples from every snake from the mouth and the cloaca en looked at it through a microscope. Al seemed to be fine except the male off course.

The bloodsample of the late female could not be examined overhere in Holland so they told me sending it to Germany?

At this time all my animales have had a preventive shot against worms and have flagyl for my sick male. The rest seemed to be fine at this time.

[BoidKeeper]

Sounds like you're on top of things. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you. Things will work out for the best, you'll see.
Keep us posted,
Trevor

[Ivan (NL)]

My vet made nothing but compliments about the way I house my reptiles. Clean sterile enclosures, huge cages and not many enclosures/animals in one room. Clean water in sterile plates, constant temperature and r.v. etc.

My females were a little bit heavy to his opinion (Columbian imperator, 6 years old, 6.5/7 feet, 18 pounds) but looked extremely healthy he says. Alert/active en nothing but glance on their skin.

All eat perfect and shedding has never been a problem.

My male had his medicaments (flagyl) and reacts good to my opinion.

Hope the best of the bloodresults and also thinks; mayby it was just something strange with the snake I lost, nothing to do with a creepy retrovirus. Damaged someting in the brain or a genetical deffect mayby?

Keep al of you updated about the results from Germany.

My male wil be alright next week after he finisches his flagyl this sunday. The females al seemed to be no worry at all. My little male (I just bought last month) is perfectly healty but also housed seperatly offcourse for the first half year (as a also did with the rest of new additions) :)

[Ivan (NL)]

Little update:

My vet called me this evening; he had some results from Germany. He send them her blood and all the organs. The checked out the organs and it wasn't IBD!

No further news, it could be paramyxo so they are checking everything now out for paramyxo.

Feels like a little relieve and hope the test shows out nothing wrong at all ;)

[bistrobob85]

Good news!

[daver676]

I'm glad to hear it.

I'm watching this thread intently. Please keep us updated. :)

[Linds]

Keep your fingers crossed! Do you know how much longer you will have to wait for all the results to come back?

Originally posted by bistrobob85
Good news!

Not necessarily good news either. Paramyxo virus is still highly contagious, and all the females were housed together, and I'm unsure about the hygiene practices used during cleaning, handling, etc. (males used same supplies as females?).

[Ivan (NL)]

I know the news has nothing to say, also paramyxo is a nasty disease. At this time I still hope they can't find anything at all.

Don't know at witch termin I got the other result but I'll wait and see.

Linds:

I'm sure about hygiene in their cages and also during handling and cleaning. Each cage has it's own cleaningmaterials and I disinfect my hands when I go to another enclosure or handle another animal. I'm verry clean with my animals and do the best I can. My vet gave me much compliments about my reptileroom and said he'd seen nothing better/cleaner/sterile.

About housing the females together at the time that's the one thing wrong about it all. The other things were all the best I can offer them (and everyone tells me that's pretty good) -)

Thanks for al your advice and sharing my pain. I'll be back with the other new results!

[Hara]

Sorry for your lose and in the same token glad everyone else is ok so far. I hope the best for you and your herp family.

God Bless
Hara

[Ivan (NL)]

Originally posted by daver676
I'm glad to hear it.

I'm watching this thread intently. Please keep us updated. :)

Sorry for the late update, not forgotten this forum but also not visited for a long time.

The blood results from Germany took 2.5 months. It sure wasn't ibd but paramyxo they couldn't exclude. The incubation time was passed so the only advice was to house the animals perfectly clean and all other circumstances. Could't threat it with reptiles??

My vet was sure all animals where housed perfectly and it just was very bad luck this happend at my place. The other females al seemed fine till today so my worry becomes less.

My sick male with flagelate's has has a second treatment partly succesfully. The flagelate's were gone but he still refuses to eat...

Went back to my vet and while checking out he found some strange mold/mould? Found it personaly very strange but he was sure it was mould from the inside. Snake got 3 days a certain musculair injection, also vitamine injection. Still refusing to eat. For 4 weaks ago my vet started giving him liquid food. Got the liquid food each week for four weeks. This week a last vitamine injection and now giving the animal a month rest.

I don't believe the animal is that sick he is going to die or has something seriously wrong. Strange thing is I have it for 2-3 years and never anything special at all. My only problem at this time he won't eat.

Little update after a very long time ;)