housing diff species together??

[n8whitie]

I was wondering if it is safe to house a red tail and lets say a retic or burm python or an anaconda together? or maybe two boas together.
Is there a chance to spread disease or parasites? I feed my red tail in a rubber-maid out of his cage right now.

thanks for any help you might have, n8

[BoidKeeper]

In my opinion, which I'm basing on things I've read and things that I know large breeders do, I feel that snakes should never be housed together. Here are some points that I keep in mind and reasons why I do not house snakes together.
1. The presence of another animal in their space represents competition, competition leads to stress.
2. Stress leads to loss of appetite and or disease.
3. If one sick gets sick they can both get sick.
4. How do you know who is defecating and who is not?
5. Snakes are not social animals so although captivity its self is not natural forcing two animals to live together is even more unnatural.
Now keeping two different species together can open up a whole new can of worms. Different species can be more susceptible to different diseases. Also they can differ in heat and humidity requirements. Some may tell you that they are your animals and you can do what you want but in the end it's not about what's good for you it's about what's good for the animals. People have been keeping snakes in captivity for many many years and it has been proven time and time again that it is a bad thing to keep multiple animals in the same cage. Further more retics and burms are from the oposite side of the planet as boa constrictors. Also burms and retics are 2 of the worlds 5 largest snakes. Do you want a snake that after 10 feet should never be handles alone? Or a snake that if it is fed properly will need rabbits and pigs when it is full grown? Also something that no one ever talks about is the mess that comes out of a snake after it has eaten a pig, do you want to clean that mess up? I know I don't.lol
Cheers,
Trevor

[n8whitie]

HAHA LOL, that would be a nasty heap to clean. Im just going to build another cage .You had to many good points why NOT to do it. Like forcing the two snakes that dont even get along to live together, That would be like making me live with richard simmons. TERRIBLE. haha. thanks for the info.
adios, nate

[BoidKeeper]

No worries. Too bad the guy that had his Boa Constrictor eat his ball python didn't ask the same questions you do.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Emoman]

I have two suggestions for You. I've heard that Epicrates Cenchria can be breeded with Boa Constrictor, because of the similar requirments and humidity. Also it is known that one and another are very calm and not very agressive snakes so there woudn't be any problems with competition of course if You would be abble to give them enough space to live together.
Secon idea is to breed another Boa different sex :) I have a similar problem and I think I'll choose second sollution. Male and Female hmmm.... that sounds great :)

[BoidKeeper]

So your advice is not only should he house two snakes together he should try and make hybrids? Is that right, is that what you're suggesting?
Trevor

[Leviathan]

Reptiles that are not from the EXACT same geographic region should not be housed together, period! Every reptile has a natural 'flora' in there body (I think I spelt that right). It's a natural defense against bacteria and parasites that are native to where they live. If a reptile was kept with another reptile who does not have the same 'flora' and comes in contact with each others saliva of feces they can get sick or even die. Alot of people keep reptiles together that shouldn't be together and they do great. I know this is true becuase I used to keep a couple of mine this way before I new better (becuase the pet store I bought them from did) and sadly a couple of them died. It is NOT worth the risk!

Alecia

[Emoman]

In second suggestion I mean different sex Boa Constrictor of course :)

[BoidKeeper]

But in your first suggestion you recomend housing two different species together, why?
Trevor

[Emoman]

Because Epicrates and Constrictor are from the same continent sometimes even Country and have got the same requirments and one and another is very calm.

[BoidKeeper]

I keep both species and I'm not keeping them the same way. How should they be kept?
Trevor

[BoidKeeper]

What are thoes requirments?
Trevor

[Leviathan]

By same geographic region I mean no more really then a state. Alot of Herpatologists don't think Uroplatus Ebenaui and U. Phantasticus should be housed together. They're only like a couple miles apart I think.

[Emoman]

Boa Constrictor:
Humidity- during the day 70%, during the night 80%
Temperature: 25-32 Degrees Celcius, in some places even 35 Degrees Celcius
Illumination: ( I think it is correct word :) ): 12-14 h during the day


Epicrates Cenchria:
Humidity- during the day 70 - 75%,during the night even 80% for Brasilian Subspecies and 60 - 70% for Colombian Subspecies
Temperature: 25 - 32°C
Illumination: 12-14h during the day

[BoidKeeper]

Well I'm convinced! Do you keep these two species together? If not what do you keep?
Trevor

[Emoman]

We should remember also about big and spacious enclosure and ventilation.

[Emoman]

For the moment I keep one Boa Constrictor (male).

[BoidKeeper]

If you only keep one snake how do you know what you are advising is a good husbandry practice if you've never done it? Have you read it some where or something?
Trevor

[Emoman]

Yes. I've read and heard about it. In some sites there are informations about it. Writers are credible because they breed snakes for years.

[BoidKeeper]

Do you have any names or web addresses? You took me by surprise I assumed that if you were offering such scatchy husbandry advice it was because you were speaking from personal experience. You see I advised the guy not to do it because personally I never do and I know not doing it is safe. You however adivised that not only he keep two snakes together but he keep two different species together and then you tell us that you have never actually done it with the two you adivsed but that you read it some where. Should you advising people to try something just because you would even though you never have?
Trevor

[Emoman]

Hmmm I know that those people are credible and that is the reason of my suggestions.
www.terrarium.com.pl is the address of this site

[Emoman]

Similar topic has been bringed up on this site by polish and czech breeders.

[BoidKeeper]

That appeared to be a forum much like this one. Although due to the language I not able to read it I suspect that like this forum it is only as good as the info given and unfortunately that info, like in this case is not always correct.
You provided questionable advice having never admitted to taking part in the practice nor were you able to provide any crediable references to support your advice. When offer contraversial husbandry advice it is always best to back up you opinions and advice with facts and references to crediable sources.
Here's just some of the sources I consulted before offering my advice,

"Housing corns individually, except of course during breeding efforts, is the time-honored method for observation."
(Love,Corn Snake Manual, pg.14, 2000.)

"We have always prefer to keep our pythons one to a cage so we can control the amount of food they eat and not have to worry about two snakes fighting over the same meal."
(Barlett, Wagner. Pythons, pg.27, Barrons. 1997)

"Cagemates or the lack of a suitable hiding place are other possible sources of stress."
(Wagner. Boas, pg.42, Barrons. 1996)

"Breeders often house captive-hatched ball pythons idividually in plastic shoe boxes..."
(de Vosjoli, Klingenberg, Barker, Barker. pg.60, The Ball Python Manual. 1995)

"For keepers of multiple boas and other pythons and boas, segregation of animals (particuarly new animals), long term quarantine and keeping a collection free of mites is a must."
(de Vosjoli, Klingenberg, Ronne. pg.13, The Boa Constrictor Manual. 1998)
I should also mention that all of my 45+ snakes are housed individually except for breeding.
Trevor

[HeatherRose]

A BCC (common boa) gets a LOT thicker than the average Rainbow Boa...I'm generally quite calm, and so is my little sister, unless we're sharing a room :p

Taking snakes from different ends of the world is like sticking a salt water fish in with a fresh water fish. Replicating both species' natural environments is nearly impossible.

[bistrobob85]

Well even if they stay in the same zones and country, it is more reasonable to have them kept seperatly 'cause in the nature ( i'm not saying i've spent lost of time in the jungle looking to make sure but... ), i don't think you'll ever find a mature boa constrictor laying near a rainbow boa!!!! In fact, i would be pretty worried about getting my rainbow boa crushed by the constrictor if both ever bit and coiled the same prey!!!

phil.

[dfr]

` Mixing wild caught, and first generation captive snakes together is dangerous to health. Even snakes from different breeders, wholesalers, retailers is quite risky. People can't seem to understand the difference, however. If you have a 5 generation captive bred snake, that has been kept in healthy conditions, it's not likely any of the pathogens or parasites from its natural habitat are present. If you are personally familiar with the animal's background, health issues can be managed successfully, if you make NO exceptions, and NO mistakes. That's not easy, you've got to be obsessive about it.
` I have been successful with a two year quarantine, on snakes acquired from completely known sources and parents.
` Once you have lowered the odds of disease transmission to acceptable levels, there is the even larger issue of temperament and stress.
` Since I'm keeping the animals captive, and caged, I feel that I am totally responsible for any injury or harm whatsoever to these animals.
` Out of dozens of animals, I have picked just five who I feel are not stressed, and who do not cause stress to each other. It has worked for over five years, with no problems. Feeding response is a major concern of mine. All of the animals in the community MUST have mild feeding responses. I have removed two who developed a radical feeding responses as they reached adulthood, leaving these five. The risk of eating one another is too great.
` I keep back-up caging for each animal in the community, set up and ready. Should the need arise, I can separate them at any time. I feel that keeping snakes together to save on caging costs is not responsible husbandry.
` Sanitation is a MUCH larger task with a community. After feeding, cleanup is intense, for a couple of weeks.
` I haven't found a tropical Boid yet, who doesn't like 65% to 80% humidity. The Ball Python in the mix never has a bad shed, and he eats all I offer him. I started having trouble with obesity with 4 of the snakes in this mix, in the last year. I've had to cut down of their feedings. I heat the entire floor, from 70 to 85 degrees F. They all favor the cooler areas.
` I am NOT suggesting that anyone mix snakes on a whim; however, I am suggesting that the dogma in place about snake's behavior is there to protect those who haven't the experience to manage it, or who would cut corners. Sadly, most people just love to repeat dogma, and reinforce it, with little practical experience. It's sad to see how much misinformation is in this thread.
` It's a lot of extra work, and it takes much more time to monitor them, but I get some great pictures. Also, I see behavior that most Boid keepers would deny can exist.
`
` Notice the size changes of the critters. These pix span three years.
`
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/Dscf0190.jpg
`
`http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/2-3-1-1060831629.jpg
`
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/4-2-3-1064055671.jpg
`
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/10030ZoopSat.jpg
`
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/4-1-2-1064892111.jpg

[BoidKeeper]

Are these your only snakes? Have you done this long? Are you an accomplished breeder?
I quoted published text recomending it not be done and you show a pic that in my not so humble opinion shows animal cruelty.
Trevor

[bistrobob85]

You're keeping a mature ball with a yearling boa constrictor and a tiny anaconda together!?!?!?! Why can't i keep my rats with my sister and my feeder snails then!?!

phil.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I feel bad for those snakes. Real bad.

[tHeGiNo]

Since I'm keeping the animals captive, and caged, I feel that I am totally responsible for any injury or harm whatsoever to these animals.

I would like to comment on that, but truly I do not know what to say...

Out of dozens of animals, I have picked just five who I feel are not stressed, and who do not cause stress to each other. It has worked for over five years, with no problems.

Wow, so you must have a degree in animal psychology or something. What exactly are your credentials for labelling them 'not stressed'?

I keep back-up caging for each animal in the community, set up and ready. Should the need arise, I can separate them at any time. I feel that keeping snakes together to save on caging costs is not responsible husbandry.

If you apparantly have the cages and money, do us and more importantly the animals a favor and separate them. Keeping three species of snake together, all of which obtain respectively different sizes, is not responsible husbandry either.

And of course I could keep going. How about this, give me one reason to house three different snakes from three different parts of the world together, and I will rest my case.

[dfr]

` Those are not my only snakes, I have many others that are not suitable for a community, for many different reasons. This community is five years old. I got my first Boa in 1963. I've had many Boids, and other herps, reproduce for me.
` Whether it's animal cruelty, or not, the snakes don't seem to realize it.
` I constantly monitor them for any signs of distress. If they show me they're distressed in the community, I remove them. I've only had two do so, and they now live alone, and are doing fine, too.
` They have lots of room, they're in a large habitat, yet they usually sleep in a pile.
` There's no reason to worry for them. They show their well being, in one way, by being very tame, in another by being constantly hungry. These 5 also have history of zero disease, or parasites.

` Rats, sister, and feeder snails! Now that sounds risky!!
`

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/4-1-5-1064273323.jpg
`
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/4-5-4-1074207411.jpg
`
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/4-5-2-1074120012.jpg
`
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/10030ZoopHeyAnacondamakesgreatpillow101002cx.jpg
`

[BoidKeeper]

I have many others that are not suitable for a community
No snake is suitable for community living.

I've had many Boids, and other herps, reproduce for me.
Any that lived in a community? Any proof?

I constantly monitor them for any signs of distress.
What are those signs?

You don't know that Boa constrictors eat ball pythons do you?
Trevor

[Siretsap]

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
Are these your only snakes? Have you done this long? Are you an accomplished breeder?

What does an accomplished breeder have to do with this? People can keep snakes for many years without ever breeding them, not everyone will want to breed their snakes.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Leviathan
Reptiles that are not from the EXACT same geographic region should not be housed together, period! Every reptile has a natural 'flora' in there body (I think I spelt that right). It's a natural defense against bacteria and parasites that are native to where they live. If a reptile was kept with another reptile who does not have the same 'flora' and comes in contact with each others saliva of feces they can get sick or even die.[/QUOTE]

Well the problem still is present as soon as you keep more than one species of reptiles in the same room. The pliers you will use to feed one snake then feed an other snake will be contaminated with the 1st snakes's bacterial defense system. Bacteria will travel from one cage to the other, either my human manipulation, by water dripping from one cage to the other, by air... Restraining a strain of bacteria in an open not controlled place like a reptile room is next to impossible.
If someone here is able to sterilise their pliers betwen each snake they feed, keep the air pure from bacteria originating from a snake, and most of all, prevent the bacteria to travel from one cage to the other should post it's techniques cause I would love to use them.

Most of the specimens people have today are cbb. And most of these cbb specimens do not have the parasites and bacteria they would usually have in their originating continent.

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
So your advice is not only should he house two snakes together he should try and make hybrids? Is that right, is that what you're suggesting?
Trevor

I really do not see what is wrong with this. It is ok to do so with a cornsnake, and milksnake, but not for 2 boas? What is the difference? I would like it explained cause to me, if you breed a cornsnake and a baird's together, it is no different than breeding 2 different boas together. As long as you keep those offsprings to yourself and do not sell them under false representation, I will not be the one to bash on you cause it is already being done with many other snakes.


The main reason I wouln't put snakes together (outside of breeding) with boas and pythons, is their size. If one decides to coil on the other, there will be some harm done to the snake. But it is also a risk we take when breeding our snakes together.

All my snakes except 2 pairs are kept seperate. But I will not go bash on Emoman or dfr cause I do not personally know them and I am not one to spit on his way of keeping these snakes. And I doubt any of us on here should have a right to do so.

Has one of you been into dfr's home to check these snakes? Have you been in contact with this person to know those snakes aren't ok? It has worked for those 3 snakes for 5 years. In my opinion, it worked in his case. I wouln't mix any of my snakes together, cause I don't want to take any risks. His are doing good together to his sayings and until someone can go to his house and prove the snakes aren't healthy then I will have to take his word on it.

He took the risk, and it worked out in his case. But what I do not agree is if he would promote his way as the best way to do so, it worked for him good.

Some things a lot of you will try might work for you but it does not mean it's the only way to work. That is what too many of us fail to realise.

I do not promote the way he kept his 3 snakes together, but I do not think he did some animal cruelty to them either.

[concept3]

due to the fact dfr got his first boa more than 10 years before BK was born I think he probably knows a thing or two.

[marisa]

What's the point in keeping them together? You are saying you have minimized risks, I just see no point in such a housing situation.....

I see it two ways for my collection housing:

SItuation 1 Housing Together.....there are risks, even when minimal there ARE major risks....

Situation 2 Housing Alone.....all possible risks one takes when housing together are automatically eliminated and I can moniter each snake individually....

Needless to say, my choice wasn;t hard. I house alone 100% of the time, even newly hatched snakes.

Marisa

[dfr]

` Response to BoidKeeper:
` I believe that any snake is capable of eating another snake. In fact, I believe that any animal which eats meat, will eat its own species.
` I doubt that community breeding would be suitable. Gravid females are delicate, moody, and stress very easily. Eggs, and neonates, are very fragile, and would easily be crushed, or otherwise damaged. As far as proof is concerned, the way you're responding to my posts, it would seem that you already believe I'm doing what I'm saying. Of course, the pictures help. lol
` The entire feeding, digestion, and elimination process is affected by stress, and is easy to monitor. Changes are easy to observe. Respiration rate is easy to monitor. It is the easiest way to see the immediate effects of stress, and changes in the animal's response to its environment. Changes in general temperament also indicate stress, or its abatement.
` As far as environment is concerned: There are many areas in the tropics, at many different longitudes, which have similar environments.
` Most of this is too basic. If you want to keep tropical Boids, make it easy and simple, and not have to know too much about their captive husbandry, temperament potential, and health, certainly, keep them separate. Most snake keepers should do just that, as I do with the animals I don't have time to monitor that closely. In the long run, it is better for the snakes. However, it is quite egocentric to require everyone to operate at your level of expertise. Don't you think so?
`
` To the other post: What's the point of it? What's the point in walking? Crawling works just great.
` Minimal major risks? Hmmmmm....

` I must admit, the old Ball Python is stressed by the water. He only likes to get his lips wet. I've got a feeling he looks at the Boas as fishy snakes.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/4-3-1-1065264498.jpg
`
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/4-3-4-1067655649.jpg
`
` There's a stressed out yawn, for ya. lol
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/4-3-3-1066484166.jpg

[marisa]

I will clarify....I meant even though you think you "minimize" the risks, they are still major ones in most peoples eyes. I guess it would have been trouble for you to see that's what I meant of just pretending I was talking gibberish and ignoring my points entirely.

Marisa

[bistrobob85]

Well no surprise that your ball isnt a water snakes! He's supposed to spend his time in a termites' nest! Your group pics are very nice but i would defenetly keep my anaconda and my ball ( if i had an anaconda ) in a more personalized cage... The snakes you keep together do not have the same requirements... Why are they always piled up? I wouldnt call it very human if your snakes were kept in a cage where they were in constant contact with each other... They aren't social animal and if you're to keep them in a group, at least give them the option to get some isolation in some gigantic cage with tons of hide spots!!!! I'm actually pretty surprised you're even able to feed them...

phil.

[dfr]

` Sorry, Marisa, I tend to be a wise guy.
` Here's a point: Most of what's commonly believed about snakes is generated by ignorance, and dogma. This is true among snake keepers, as well as the general public.
` Most people feel that snakes are totally instinct driven, and "learned behavior" is not given much credence, in snakes. This rigid view of their behavior, and capabilities, has resulted in thousands of years of humans eliminating snakes from their environment ( the permanent way ).
` Yet snakes can be "tamed". Some are willing to modify their behavior enough to remain healthy, in an unnatural environment. Sure, you can maintain temperature, humidity, photoperiod, and some other aspects of their environment. Just don't fool yourself into thinking that you're giving your snake a "natural" environment. Hell, the cage, and what's in it, along with all the interaction with humans, constant intrusion into their habitat, being stared at through the glass, clean up time, rock and roll, telephones ringing, sonic booms, no hunting, no flight or fight, ad nauseum.., all these "unnatural" things and many more make captivity with the average hobbyist a trial for the average snake. That's one reason why it is not uncommon for young snakes to fail to flourish, and just go downhill, with no health problem. The truth is, the snake has to make just as much effort as you do, at creating successful captive husbandry. Otherwise, it just won't work, and in that case the human doesn't die, the snake does. It's sad to watch people go through a series of critters, until they learn how to keep them alive, and so unnecessary, too.
` Keeping a community of the right species, AND the right individuals, is just an extension of the learning process. As I said before, it is so labor and attention intensive, that I only keep one community. The majority of my Boids are caged individually. If I had the resources, I might try another, but only if I had the time. Cutting any corners, at all, surely would result in harm to the critters.
` Here are two pix of snakes that have learned behavior.

` The Ball and the Anaconda smell their food thawing, as it takes hours to thaw 30 pounds of food. These guys are hungry, as I don't overfeed, and they will sit like this for hours. Sometimes the others will join them in line. You wouldn't believe me if I just told you, but the picture must help. Have they learned to do this? Or, is it just a coincidence that happens at each feeding?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/2-4-2-1062773808.jpg

` This large male ( he's the same one as in the picture with the Ball ) learned, as a baby, that he could just open his mouth and be handed his food. He quit striking, and constricting his food at a few months of age. He'll sometimes grab the first one, but usually takes the rest gently. I have three others, siblings of this one, who feed like this. When I get my next clutch of Boas, I'm going to try it on some of them. Getting chewed on by babies is one of the pleasures of herpetoculture. lol
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/Zoo_p_Wheezer_lazy_snake_compressed.jpg
`
` So, there are some of my reasons. I'm not stubborn enough to deny any risk. Hell, the first risk you take is bringing the critter home. Since I have had no problems with this community, nor with several others I have kept in the last 40 years, I think that I have the risks managed well enough to continue learning about them.
` Sorry I didn't answer seriously the first time. How'd I do, this time?


` To the other post: Where in Hell did you get a termites nest? Is it just the nest, or do you need the termites, too? I may start a Ball Python community, if I can find me one of them nests. Also, I can tell you why they are always piled up, as I've slept on top of a couple of Burms, years ago in a power outage, they're really quite comfortable to sleep on! Oh yeah, feeding them together would be a foolish move, whew!
`

[juviniles_5]

lololo.......thats cool..i have never herd of anyone doing that before. i think that you know what you are doing and if this comunity has worked for you for 5 years then i have no dout that it wont work for another 10...........i wish my snakes were as smart as yours. everytime i try to feed one of my balls he always takes my hand before the rat......but my ij carpet isent to bad i just get the rat wiggle it and he takes it

but anyway congragulations on keeping 5 compleatly diferant herps together:)

[C.ADAMANTEUS]

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
No snake is suitable for community living.


Any that lived in a community? Any proof?


What are those signs?

You don't know that Boa constrictors eat ball pythons do you?
Trevor

Never heard of a Boa eating a python before, but I did lose a male striped Boa, And the Results from the Vet said it was a Disease that can be carried by pythons, and transmitted to boas.
Harmless to the python, Deadly to Boas.
Had tests done on my Royal, and hes a carrier, and they were housed together, in a community according to size.
I suggest,(before you find out like I did) that you house in a community according to species.
But, you may be a lucky one, and never have an incident.
Rick

[C.ADAMANTEUS]

Originally posted by juviniles_5
lololo.......thats cool..i have never herd of anyone doing that before. i think that you know what you are doing and if this comunity has worked for you for 5 years then i have no dout that it wont work for another 10...........i wish my snakes were as smart as yours. everytime i try to feed one of my balls he always takes my hand before the rat......but my ij carpet isent to bad i just get the rat wiggle it and he takes it

but anyway congragulations on keeping 5 compleatly diferant herps together:)

Tongs Save Fingers, and hands.

[Sowwywongnumba]

You know what!!!? If it works for you KEEP DOING IT!!!!! I keep yellow,texas rat snakes in with some corn snakes they have never had a problem in 3 years and i doubt they will in the future! keep up the good work and just shrug off the negative responses I DO!!!!

[CDN-Cresties]

Ignorance is bliss.

[timminsreptiles]

I for one would never house pythons and boas together.....just cause something works doest mean its right....There are too many issues that have already be outlined wich are at risk.

"keep up the good work and just shrug off the negative responses I DO!!!!"

Why are you here then....so if someone gives you a negative response you automaticly dismiss it as beeing wrong? WOW!

Lucas

[C.ADAMANTEUS]

Originally posted by Sowwywongnumba
You know what!!!? If it works for you KEEP DOING IT!!!!! I keep yellow,texas rat snakes in with some corn snakes they have never had a problem in 3 years and i doubt they will in the future! keep up the good work and just shrug off the negative responses I DO!!!!

Hey Man, Just sharing a Bad personal experience with someone.
Why does that seem to agrivate you?
Using all the exclamation points like they make it hurt or something.
If my Unfortunate experience offends you, than you should seek some help for your problem.
Richard Carew:D

[dfr]

` Some of you are much more concerned with being right, than you are in possibly learning something more. Quit holding your own opinion so sacred, it makes you stagnant. It's amazing that the dogma within the hobby is as strong as the dogma about snakes in general. You'd think people who opt to keep such misunderstood critters would be more open minded, themselves.
` Housing different species together is a very complicated balancing act. If you don't start with the right critters, as far as health, temperament, and environmental requirements are concerned, it will fail, and your captives will suffer.
` For most people, it is not practical to keep communities of snakes, as the commitment and responsibility is enormous. I keep only one community. The rest of my snake live alone because I wouldn't have time to supervise more than one community. That is why I do not recommend this practice.

` It sure makes for some great experiences, and pix.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/Dscf0192.jpg
`
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/Dscf0007.jpg
`
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/Dscf0010.jpg
`

[BoidKeeper]

Housing different species together is a very complicated balancing act. If you don't start with the right critters, as far as health, temperament, and environmental requirements are concerned, it will fail, and your captives will suffer.
So why do it? Better yet why tell newbies it can be done? Nine time out of ten the person who comes on here and ask if it can be done is either a newbie with one snake or someone with no snakes. Are these the people you want trying your complicated experiment. I've always beleived and always will believe that anyone housing two or more snakes in one cage is too cheap to provide them with each their own cage. There is no benifit to the animals so why do it.
At the end of the day the people with the biggest collections, both private and public are not housing multiple animals together. They obiviously know something you do not. I plan to follow their example not yours or anyone else with 5 or 10 snakes housed in 3 cages. If it was such a safe practice why would breeders be spending thousands of dollars on racks?
Trevor

[dfr]

` Well, if you always will believe what you always have believed, why should I answer you? Not interested in arguing, just for its own sake.

[BoidKeeper]

I'm not concerned with you changing my mind I'm concerned with you offering what you say is complacated advice to novice keepers. Just because you are doing it doesn't mean that you should be telling newbies to do it. That is my point. You're one keeper doing something that all the biggest and best in this hobby aren't doing. Should you really be telling others to be like you?
Trevor

[Vengeance]

I'm going to come at this topic from a different point of view.

I agree with both side of the argument to a degree. I very strongly agree with the not housing snakes together other then the purpose of breeding. There are no added benefits and nothing but risks involved. Also keeping them together because of lack of space, or just plain ignorance, bad idea. I would never keep more the one snake to a cage myself.

But on the other side of the coin, DFR isn't housing these animals because of lack of space or ignorance on his part. Reading through this whole thread he has said numerous times that there is a TON of work involved and does not recommended the casual keeper or even the casual breeder to try something like this. But from the sounds of things he is trying this community to learn about the different behaviors of snake interaction. It also seems like he has taken allot of time and consideration into the selection of his animals, taking proper precautions to make sure to the best of his ability they are safe and not taking this project lightly.

I'm hoping that he has been documenting the changes in behavior over the last 5 years of these snakes and one day down the road publishes his findings. So as a research project I can see the merit in why he created this community. But if he was just keeping the snakes together just because he can keep the snakes together I would also be on the side of it being a bad idea. This specific instance to me seems more like a grey area. If you want an example of a non grey area take this quote for example:

Sowwywongnumba : You know what!!!? If it works for you KEEP DOING IT!!!!! I keep yellow,texas rat snakes in with some corn snakes they have never had a problem in 3 years and i doubt they will in the future! keep up the good work and just shrug off the negative responses I DO!!!!

This to me is the example of a bad keeper who is keeping his snakes in the same cage for either A) lack of space B) lack of care or C) lack of better knowledge.

Now also you are correct this may not be the best place to post this kind of information because any newbie passing by may take this information the wrong way and think it is ok to house a Conda, Ball, and Boa in the same cage. But if not post it here, then where? Personally I found the thread to be interesting and I hope to hear more about DFR's findings.

Anyway, just my take on things from the fence post :)

Adam

[dfr]

` Right, and the changes in their behavior are fascinating. There are general changes that seem to affect all of them, and individual changes which tell me that they have much latitude in their personalities that most herpetoculturists would not allow for.
` I have been keeping records, and many pictures of their behavior.
I started this experiment, and several others, when I came across a clutch of newborn Anacondas who were extraordinarily calm, and gentle.
` I started keeping Boids in 1963, and in the six years I've been keeping this community, I've seen and documented behavior that really angers the snake keepers who are creatures of dogmatic preconception, lol. So, I'm used to the rude and dogmatic responses. It's good though, when people acknowledge their limitations, and keep their animals safe within them. It's just Human Nature, folks don't like things they don't feel capable to do, or don't understand. Hell, people are killing each other all over the planet because of ignorance. Not too surprising that those same types want to fuss about something so esoteric as tropical Boid husbandry.
` I've considered the risk of neophytes, and nitwits trying communal housing when not appropriate. I never advise it, not to anyone. But dammit, as you said, this is certainly a place to share knowledge of snake husbandry. It's also a place, unfortunately, for people with bad manners to misbehave without risk of being called-to-task for it. Most of them wouldn't let out a peep, in person. They often have nothing to contribute but " look at what I've got!", or "I'm now going to judge you" anyhow. That's one of the few advantages of getting old, you can learn to ignore the twits. lol
` I especially like the one who can't comprehend what he/she reads, accuses me of recommending community husbandry, to neophytes, and very appropriately says: "I've always beleived (sic) and always will believe that...." Honest, at least. lol

[BoidKeeper]

Ask anyone who know's me off the boards buddy, I'm actually rude in person, not on line.
Trevor

[Vengeance]

I wouldn't really refer to the keeping of snakes in separate cages "dogmatic". You say there are behavioral changes, it is interesting. But you haven't demonstrated any added benefits to keeping a community. For this specific research purpose I agree I can see why you are keeping this community. But as a replacement to the current husbandry practiced by most, you still haven't provided any positive benefits to keeping a community. From the information you have put out so far I still feel that the negative effects of keeping more then one snake to a cage out weigh the behavioral changes that you are experiencing. So to say that keeping one snake to a cage is dogmatic to me seems incorrect. One snake to a cage is a tried, tested, and true method of keeping healthily snakes for years. Where as the community method you are purposing has yet to be proven as a beneficial alternative. I will give you the fact that the behavioral changes are interesting but it still doesn't take away from the fact that in the off beat chance one of your snakes in the community does become ill, the chances for contamination of the rest of your community are much higher then that if they were kept in separate cages. Accidents do happen, so there is still a possibility, no matter how remote that your entire community could die due to the infection of one snake in that community. To me that is to great a risk to take to observe the behavioral changes that you are seeing.

So in conclusion your research on the community is most interesting but as an alternative to current single cage housing system does not seem plausible to me.

[bigdaddy]

I have two common boa's male and female and they are housed in the same enclosure.They are both 4 yr. old and I am not at the present time trying to breed them.Am I causing more stress for these snakes having them housed together? One other thing ,at what age are they mature enough to breed? I have heard both sides to this problem and I am stuck in the middle not knowing which way to go.So if someone could point me in the right direction it would be appreciated THANKS

[HeatherRose]

I have two common boa's male and female and they are housed in the same enclosure.They are both 4 yr. old and I am not at the present time trying to breed them.Am I causing more stress for these snakes having them housed together? One other thing ,at what age are they mature enough to breed? I have heard both sides to this problem and I am stuck in the middle not knowing which way to go.So if someone could point me in the right direction it would be appreciated THANKS

If you're not breeding them, it's probably best to put them in seperate enclosures. No one can really tell you if it's 'stressing' them unless they begin to show obvious signs, like not eating. Other than that, you can't tell whose poop is whose, and if one gets sick they both get sick..parasites and other infections are more easily transmitted in such close quarters.

In other words, there are many good reasons to keep snakes housed seperately, but not a single reason why they should be kept together.

At 4 feet, they are old enough to breed if they are the appropriate size. How big are they?

DFR, your ball looks HUGE next to that anaconda! How big is it?

-Heather

[dfr]

` There's always going to be some sort of stress. It's when it is constant and begins to affect the snake in permanent ways that something needs to be done.
` Do your two Boas keep away from each other, or do they mind touching? The few snakes I keep in community started out avoiding each other, but only for a month, or so. Now, they usually sleep in a pile. I take them out to exercise in their jungle gym and they get into a ball.
` Appetite, digestion, and defecation are another good indicator of stress.
`If I see a questionable stool, I will separate them through a feeding cycle. It hasn't happened in 5 years, though.
` Shedding at normal intervals is another.
` Some individuals will have behavior changes, with too much stress. It's not always to aggressiveness, either. Stressed animals can become reclusive, or difficult to handle. Some become jumpy. Some are naturally that way, so it is a change that you are looking for.
` A good way to evaluate their mood is to watch their breathing. Watch the lung, about 1/3 the way along the body. It's normal for breathing rate to increase, and become shallow when excited, feeding and digesting, frightened, or just exercising. The breathing, at rest, should be slow and steady, with deep breaths, and with a pause after inhalation, and a pause after exhalation. When you approach a Boa it will usually increase respiration, but it should slow back down as the animal gets used to your presence.
` You didn't say anything about their health, or their history. Did you quarantine them before putting them together? How long have they been together?

` The old Ball is normal size, for a male. He's about 5 feet, but he's stocky. lol He looks and acts larger, however. He thinks he's an Anaconda, I think. He gets on top of the pile when they sleep. At feeding time, he's the only one who is aggressive, for a Ball that is.
` http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/Dscf0029.jpg
`
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/Dscf0207.jpg
`
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/1-3-2-1052388877.jpg

[Gary D.]

OK I'll throw a penny in here (not my full 2 cents)

Tip of the hat to DFR. While most in the hobby disagree with communal keeping he has come on and intelligently stated what he does, and that he does not endorse it to everybody. While this could have easily became a flame war all participants have been respectful in conversation thus far, and DFR especially so.

I will point out that most CAZA and AZA approved zoological institutions keep communal enclosures, and many with mixed species. In fact this trend is growing as zoos evolve from display cages to mini-ecosystems, (some better than others). It has been put forth that there are without doubt numerous reasons for separate enclosures, but no good reasons for communal setups. Well I will offer a couple. Keeping in context that community enclosures must be of adequate size. Without doubt larger than the minimal and sparse confines which are infact the norm in the hobby. Suppose you look at it like this, Would you rather live in a 450 sq ft. apartment by yourself and work in a cubicle or live in a 1200sq ft house with a room mate and work in a barier free environment. Not trying to anthropomorphise this too much we'll move along more scientifically.

Proper and effective thermogradients.
Along with the larger cage requirements comes more area (duh). Using a standard 4x2x16 clinical set up for an adult male boa (say 6'). Add a 12x18 water dish under the heat lamp for humidity. You now effectively have 6.5 sq. ft. of floor space. A loosly coiled snake taking up aprox 2.25 sq.ft. is hard pressed to fit it's entire body into the supposed thermogradient and elongated encompases all thermal zones including basking area. Nor in this situation can an animal soak without basking or must be crowded to bask without soaking (very probable cause of mild stress).

Increased activity. While a snake will only occupy a small portion of any suitable size cage they will invariably utilise the entire space throughout the day. A snake in a more confined enclosure is likely to be less active. Thus will recieve less exercise which can affect digestion, as well as general health (so the doctors keep telling us fat lazy bastards). Increased activity conceivable could also make the animal more resistant to disesase aswell.

Note these benefits are inherently about cage sizes, and not exclusive to communal setups. But as communal set ups require larger caging the arguements I feel are still valid. If you prefer to build 7x3x2's or larger for your boas and keep them solitary more power to you.

Socialization. An animal conditioned to be unconcerned with general activity throught the day would arguably be less likely to become stressed during times of human interaction.

Now for the most part a lot of this is speculative. But much of the conventional wisdom in herpetoculture is based on numerous assumptions. Simply assuming what we are doing now is the best way without considdering other methods and the possible benefits as well as shortcomings, then herpetoculture will become stagnant. I may have to persue research on some of possibilities I brought up myself.

Without doubt this has been the best thread on this topic I have read to date.

GD

Edit:typo;

[Linds]

Question to DFR and anyone else that is pro-communal living...

Can you list *ONE* benefit to the snakes (not the keeper), in being housed communally? I've racked my brain and can only come up with the numerous risks involved, and cannot understand why anyone would rather opt for the situation that comes with many -possible- risks, when a situation where alll those risks have been removed is available :confused:

All these pro-communal living arguements, nobody has ever been able to answer any of those questions for me. I would think those would be the make-it-or-break-it questions that would need to be answered before deciding to house animals together :confused:

Originally posted by Siretsap

It is ok to do so with a cornsnake, and milksnake, but not for 2 boas? What is the difference? I would like it explained cause to me, if you breed a cornsnake and a baird's together, it is no different than breeding 2 different boas together.

I don't see any difference at all. IMO it is an abomination to breed two different ssp. of Boa together, and moreso two different species altogether. I don't feel it is ok to do this with a corn and milk either, but I think that's a topic that's been discussed to death, and needs not be resurrected here.

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
No snake is suitable for community living.


Exactly. Snakes are NOT community animals, they are solitary. Only time they EVER come together in the wild is to breed, with the exception of a select few snakes, such as garters that will hibernate in hibernaculums together, as have a few rattlesnakes been known to do this. Why? Likely because there really aren't that many options, you are bound to have to share!

Originally posted by Emoman
Boa Constrictor:
Humidity- during the day 70%, during the night 80%
Temperature: 25-32 Degrees Celcius, in some places even 35 Degrees Celcius
Illumination: ( I think it is correct word :) ): 12-14 h during the day


Epicrates Cenchria:
Humidity- during the day 70 - 75%,during the night even 80% for Brasilian Subspecies and 60 - 70% for Colombian Subspecies
Temperature: 25 - 32°C
Illumination: 12-14h during the day

They may come from similar area of the world, but they don't have the same habitat. Many rainbows require much higher humidity than Boa constrictor ssp. do, as well as lower temperatures. Many rainbows are swamp snakes, whereas a Boa kept in similar conditions will develop all sorts of bacterial infections. Boas do well with humidity levels around 55%, whereas a some ssp. of Rainbow boas would die under such conditions.

[atw]

From dfr:


Quit holding your own opinion so sacred, it makes you stagnant. It's amazing that the dogma within the hobby is as strong as the dogma about snakes in general. You'd think people who opt to keep such misunderstood critters would be more open minded, themselves.


Amen

From Vengence


But from the sounds of things he is trying this community to learn about the different behaviors of snake interaction. It also seems like he has taken allot of time and consideration into the selection of his animals, taking proper precautions to make sure to the best of his ability they are safe and not taking this project lightly.


Exactly

From Gary D.


Now for the most part a lot of this is speculative. But much of the conventional wisdom in herpetoculture is based on numerous assumptions. Simply assuming what we are doing now is the best way without considdering other methods and the possible benefits as well as shortcomings, then herpetoculture will become stagnant. I may have to persue research on some of possibilities I brought up myself.

Without doubt this has been the best thread on this topic I have read to date.


I agree

[BoidKeeper]

Can you list *ONE* benefit to the snakes (not the keeper), in being housed communally?
There you go! There is no need for pages and pages of arguments about this topic. As keepers everything we do should be in our animals best interest. Every decision we make should be able to be explained in some way describing how what we've done will benifit our animals.
So with that logic Linds has an excellent point. Someone, anyone name just one benefit to the snake from being housed with another snake. God knows we can list many risk but I too can not think of one single benifit.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Ryan Pye]

The Indian River Reptile Zoo (near Peterborough ONT) who are CAZA credited, houses a lot of there snakes together (same species). I personally dont make a practice of it with all by snakes, but I do house my 2 female Burms together, only for the fact that the enclosure is huge, and they have enough space that they dont even have to come in to contact if they dont want. It would be a shame not to utilize such a nice enclosure.

A lot of you attitudes come off so negatively, is the point behind these forums not to learn from others and to share knowledge. Let me ask you this, when someone is rude and confrontational with you(even if they have a valid point), does it really make YOU want to listen?

Each to their own, ladies and gentle men
Ryan

[BoidsUnlimited]

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
Ask anyone who know's me off the boards buddy, I'm actually rude in person, not on line.
Trevor

Hmmm..so when I eventually purchase a Boa off of you..I think I will consider ordering! :confused:

[atw]

BoidKeeper:


There you go! There is no need for pages and pages of arguments about this topic.


Agreed. Gary D. listed some. I guess you didn't see those. I see no reason to be upset by someone's positive and healthy experiences. I am honestly sorry you feel that way.

Adam

[BoidKeeper]

Hmmm..so when I eventually purchase a Boa off of you..I think I will consider ordering!
Just make sure you order on line and not in person.lol What I said was a joke but was not very well written.
I'm not upset or meaning to come off as rude I'm just very very passionate about my position on this topic. I see it has a bad husbandry practice and as a result I believe thoes that do it put their animals at risk and that bothers me because I hate to see animals suffer.
Cheers,
Trevor

[BoidsUnlimited]

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
Just make sure you order on line and not in person.lol What I said was a joke but was not very well written.
I'm not upset or meaning to come off as rude I'm just very very passionate about my position on this topic. I see it has a bad husbandry practice and as a result I believe thoes that do it put their animals at risk and that bothers me because I hate to see animals suffer.
Cheers,
Trevor

Ah i didnt take what you meant as rude at all. My reply was meant to be joking:)

I find threads that rant on to be obsurd and of no use. Think about this.........

People bicker back and forth....someone goes over the top...banning occurs....adn in the end...the thread gets closed?

Meh..seems pointless to me LOL.

[BoidKeeper]

Over the top! You take that back! So help me.....

[atw]

Me too but this looks like it is working for him and the animals appear healthy.
Don't visit any pet stores if you are concerned about the welware of animals :-)

[C.ADAMANTEUS]

Originally posted by Ryan Pye
The Indian River Reptile Zoo (near Peterborough ONT) who are CAZA credited, houses a lot of there snakes together (same species). I personally dont make a practice of it with all by snakes, but I do house my 2 female Burms together, only for the fact that the enclosure is huge, and they have enough space that they dont even have to come in to contact if they dont want. It would be a shame not to utilize such a nice enclosure.

A lot of you attitudes come off so negatively, is the point behind these forums not to learn from others and to share knowledge. Let me ask you this, when someone is rude and confrontational with you(even if they have a valid point), does it really make YOU want to listen?

Each to their own, ladies and gentle men
Ryan
AMEN. I for one concidered myself fairly knowledgable when it came to reptiles. But in the last couple months of visiting these forums, I can tell I should have stayed in school. The knowledge I have recieved Here, has probably doubled what I used to know.
These forums are for everyone, Novice, and profesional, to learn from each other, NOT drog people through the dirt.
Richard Carew

[Linds]

atw,
I don't think anyone here is arguing that it cannot be done, even for lengthy periods, but as Trevor pointed out, many of us here are quite passionate about this subject and only want our animals to live the safest existence in our care, and are interested in hearing a single reason that housing them together is at all beneficial for the snakes vs. individually. Most of us do not view our animals as science experiements in the sense of we like to observe what will come of it if we put them in to certain situations, but as animals that deserve the healthiest, safest existence we can provide. While you guys can give a thousand and one examples of how your snakes are managing ok so far, why can we not receive a single reason of what benefit there is to the animals? If it isn't a big deal, then providing that answer shouldn't be either, right? ;)

[BoidsUnlimited]

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
Over the top! You take that back! So help me.....

THere you go again! Geeze man...call yourself!!!!!!

>( :D

[BoidKeeper]

I started this, http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=60246&perpage=15&pagenumber=1 because of this thread. It seems like most of our members keep there snakes individually. The pics of the boa that ate the ball are there too.
Cheers,
Trevor

[dfr]

` I think the greatest benefit to too many captive snakes would be to be living in their natural habitat. However, I believe that most of us on these forums are sincerely trying to do our best for these animals. It takes a fairly formidable ego to figure that you can keep a tropical, cold blooded critter on life support, and always benefit the animal. That is, if you stop to think about it in the first place.
` I was in pet retail for years. The fate of the majority of pet reptiles is worse than death. That's not to say that most owners are not well-intentioned. It's mostly that they can get a reptile easily, and cheaply, toss it in a screen top cage with a light to heat the cage and remove the humidity through the open top, then watch as it wastes away, seriously suffering themselves over the animal's declining vitality. Most of the people selling herps want to sell them, not have their prospective buyer cheap out when faced with the cost of proper husbandry. The gas people spew about benefits to the snake is usually brought up by someone trying to support their own ideas. It is disingenuous, to be polite.
` Abomination, huh? That's a telling word. In the 60s, I remember a Ku Klux Klan member telling me that marriage of different races was an abomination. Deja vu, all over again. LOL kidding, a little. It's good to be secure in what you believe, but when you become mired in it, or start using your opinions to judge other people, in a curmudgeonly manner, you may not be in a position to grow, to say the very least about that. You must challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you!
` Just- please don't throw snakes together on a whim. I am certainly not advocating that. I thought about it for years, but didn't have the resources until I retired, and had as much time as it takes to maintain a community. The last time I traveled, mine were imprisoned in separate cages, for two weeks. When I put them back together, they all seemed happy about it. They went into their pile, and went to sleep. The next day, they all pooped together, and I realized that my vacation was really over! LOL

` Here's an example of communal behavior. A mature and very horny female Yellow Anaconda, in another cage, is waving her tail and issuing pheromones. These two young adult males are "fighting" over who's the best guy for her. They pushed and shoved, and puffed up their throats like rat snakes. This went on for several hours, on many occasions. I never saw one open his mouth, or attempt to constrict. They kept it up until one gave up and had to rest, each time.

` What this picture shows may not have benefited the critters but it sure benefited me to see it. I think you should be saying " do no harm", not "If it provides no benefit, don't do it." Again, keeping them captive is not done to benefit them, but to benefit us.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/Dscf0577.jpg

[atw]

Linds

I know what you are saying and cannot say that I know the answer to your question. Gary D. listed quite a few advantages that he could perceive and they seem logical to me. Even if none of these 'advantages' are valid, I would still think that what dfr is doing is awesome. I mean, I have seen people keeping full grown burms in a tank that is the same as one of my beardie tanks... now how cruel is that!

When I put this in comparison to that, even if there are no positives (which their appear to be), it is still an interesting experience.... one that I think is not a scientific experiment but rather, an experience that denies convention and given that the convention for giant snakes --I think-- is to be cramped into unacceptable enclosures, this unique environment is definitely not a bad thing.

Adam

[BoidKeeper]

It takes a fairly formidable ego to figure that you can keep a tropical, cold blooded critter on life support, and always benefit the animal.
Keepers will not always benifit the animal in all that they do but they must strive to by avoiding husbandry practices that are widely accepted as inappropriate.

The gas people spew about benefits to the snake is usually brought up by someone trying to support their own ideas. It is disingenuous, to be polite.
Well people who do have house snakes seperately do have benefits to list. You are also trying to support your ideas but you haven't done so buy listing a single benifit to your snakes.
As far as you comments about your snakes being happy, how can you tell a snake is happy? My snakes are calm, acclimated, docile and most are aggressive feeders but I don't think any are actually happy. Why do people insist on applying human emotions and characteristics on to their animals?

I remember a Ku Klux Klan member telling me that marriage of different races was an abomination. Deja vu, all over again. LOL kidding, a little.
A little? We're not talking about discrimination based on colour or culture we're talking about keeping animals from two different parts of the world and habbitates seperate beccause each requires a unique environment.

It's good to be secure in what you believe, but when you become mired in it, or start using your opinions to judge other people, in a curmudgeonly manner, you may not be in a position to grow, to say the very least about that. You must challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you!
You should follow your own advice. Look at the front page poll I posted. Most people here do not house their snakes together. Also out of all the members on this site you appear to be the only one doing what you are doing. So I ask you, who is not willing to grow and change? What you're doing may have been fine back in the day but herpers are learning more and more all the time and one thing we have learned about snake husbandry is that there is a whole pile of risk to your snake that are eliminated by housing it alone. One thing we have not learned yet is how housing to snakes together can actually benifit the snake.

The last time I traveled, mine were imprisoned in separate cages, for two weeks.
No matter if they are alone of forced to share their space they are imprisoned.

they all seemed happy about it.
You know this how? Were they smiling?:p

Here's an example of communal behavior. A mature and very horny female Yellow Anaconda, in another cage, is waving her tail and issuing pheromones. These two young adult males are "fighting" over who's the best guy for her.
You'll see this once a year anyway during breeding trials. They will behave this way without being forced to live together. This is not an example of communal behaviour, it's male combat and it will occur any time the right two males are together at the right time of year. As a matter of fact it would probably be even better to watch had they not seen each other all year.




What this picture shows may not have benefited the critters but it sure benefited me to see it.
So you agree then you're doing it for you and not for them and there is no benifit for the snakes?

Again, keeping them captive is not done to benefit them, but to benefit us.
Yes captivity is unnatural but forcing two snakes from oposite sides of the globe to share a plywood box is even more unnatural. So in a hobby of chosing the lesser of evils I chose to avoid as many risk to my captives as possible by housing them individually.
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

Every one of those cage pictures just looks dirty and and unkempt, multi-species keeping aside.

[dfr]

` I like dirty pictures, but definitely not unkempt ones!
`
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/1-2-5-1052202563.jpg

[Linds]

Originally posted by dfr
` ` I was in pet retail for years.

Then you should know how risky it can be to house animals in such a manner. I worked in retail as well, and although precautions were always taken when housing snakes in pairs or trios (never more), accidents still happened. I've personally experienced ALL the reasons I recommend snakes be kept seperate, so I'm not parrotting info by any means, I've seen it all firsthand, and not in a negligent environment either. All the precautions in the world cannot help some things. Ever try and seperate two giant burms? Not fun, not safe, and most certainly not easy.

Originally posted by dfr
` ` What this picture shows may not have benefited the critters but it sure benefited me to see it. I think you should be saying " do no harm", not "If it provides no benefit, don't do it." Again, keeping them captive is not done to benefit them, but to benefit us.


Obviously there is a degree of selfishness in keeping animals captive, however there is still benefit to the species as a whole. The more species we are able to secure a captive population, the better the species has a chance to preserve itself in the long run. Many species are being wiped out in the wild, but at least they will not be extinct as long as they are being kept in captivity. Even if I was unable to keep reptiles for myself, I would very much be hoping that other people were continuing to do so in order to help preserve them.

Like Trevor said, it basically comes down to the lesser of two evils. Why not choose to minimize damage if you can and prevent serious harm if you can? Again, you have me a long-winded response, but no answer to this question. If you are so intent on having other people open their minds, and learn alternative ways of doing things, why not answer a few simple questions? I'm always open to learning new things, and my opinions evolve over time, and many times a good debate has influenced those changes. However, a good debate also counters one's points by contributing thought-provoking facts and opinions that can provide (at the least) a very reasonable doubt in the current opinion at hand.

Originally posted by dfr
...you may not be in a position to grow, to say the very least about that. You must challenge your preconceptions, or they will challenge you!
`

It's interesting you bring that up. You are quite fond of practicing the 'old time' method of housing multiple snakes together, whether same type or completely different. Many of the seasoned herpers that had been doing this over many decades grew out of this practice due to all the realizations of the risks involved. As keepers, we should always be trying to better the way we keep things, but I cannot see how introducing more risks as a positive thing :confused:

Originally posted by dfr


Hmmm... comparing me to the *** for their racist beliefs because I do not wish to contaminate a species (or simply because I used the same word? maybe I should've used disgust instead... means the same thing), nice arguement :rolleyes: It's not bad enough that we are wiping out animals one by one, but to want to preserve them is close-minded apparently... :rolleyes: Guess it doesn't bother you that you will never see a pure Indian Python in captivity ever again, or the like? It may sit well with you, but I myself, cannot help but find disgust in that fact :( Either way, I was hoping not to get in to that... here's the last thread on that topic. http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56155

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
[B]Keepers will not always benifit the animal in all that they do but they must strive to by avoiding husbandry practices that are widely accepted as inappropriate...

...Yes captivity is unnatural but forcing two snakes from oposite sides of the globe to share a plywood box is even more unnatural. So in a hobby of chosing the lesser of evils I chose to avoid as many risk to my captives as possible by housing them individually.


I couldn't agree more. Although, not entirely with what practices are deemed appropriate or not, as there are many things that are deemed appropriate I do not agree with in life and many innappropriate things I do, but rather that these things have been proven to carry certain risk.
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Either way... I know I will likely get no answer, but I will ask it anyways, as it is really the only thing I'm interested in... why not minimize damage and risk if that option is there??

[dfr]

` Never kept Boids together in the "old days". They were all wild caught, and health history was impossible to determine. Also, in the "old days" didn't have time to supervise community husbandry with the conscientiousness it requires.
` Somebody back there said that they don't consider their snakes a "science experiment", well that is exactly what it is. Captive reptile husbandry is a developing art, as well as science. If you've got it all figured out, write a book! I'll buy a copy.
` I have minimized damage, and prevented any harm serious or not, by removing it from existence, so far. Almost 6 years with this community, no problems, for the snakes, that is. The only damage has been to my back. The 2 to 3 weeks after feeding is a real pain. Sometimes, I break down the habitat 3 times a day. 15 gallons of water, and 21 square feet of floor/substrate to clean. Sometimes, they even climb up and poop on the mezzanine.
` When I feel like I've "seen it all firsthand" I imagine that I'll feel sad. What an awful place to be.
` Not comparing you to *** members, don't know you. Simply pointing out that when someone gets their mind too fixed on an opinion, they can become very defensive about it. It's human nature, I guess. Next, people feel justified in discriminating against folks who are not thinking the same as themselves.
` I don't really like to anthropomorphize my snakes. As I said, it seems so. Happy? Smiling? Hmmmm. Well, I can sure tell when they are angry. Most of us on this forum will have dealt with a pissed off snake. Hell, I've had them hold grudges against me for months before getting over it. You'll probably not have too many agree that they can't get mad. So, are they only unidimensional in their emotions?
` One more time: I keep most of my snakes solitary. Some are in quarantine. Some don't have the temperament for communal housing. And, I just don't have the time to keep more than one community. So, I'm doing it both ways. You, are stuck in a rut.

` Here's a pic of a very big girl who I would never trust in a community. Her feeding response is frighteningly intense. Poor thing, she'll never know the fun she's missing. LOL

` http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/dfr49/Dscf0454.jpg

` Doggone it, she looks unkempt, too. LOL

[Jeff Hathaway]

Getting a little off-topic, but I'd say snakes are actually pretty unidimensional when it comes to emotions. In fact, their brains are not well developed, at least when it comes to the limbic system which as I recall seems to be the main centre for emotional activity in humans. I don't think snakes do 'happy' or 'angry'. I think that they do 'afraid' and 'not afraid'. Really, when have you seen an 'angry' snake that you could not attribute it's behaviour to 'fear'?

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Linds]

Originally posted by dfr
` ` I have minimized damage, and prevented any harm serious or not, by removing it from existence, so far.

How have you removed the chance of your snake mistaking another for food? Snakes act purely on instinct, and even a decade or more without the snake mistaking means nothing, they all have it in them. If someone had a bit of diarhea, how would you know it came from? How have you removed the chance of your snakes from injuring accidentally injuring eachother (especially a threat with an anaconda and ball python mixed up). How have you removed any possible stress that may be caused? Snakes merely tolerate company, they don't have 'friends'. Just because they aren't showing any aggression or change in appettite is still not to say they aren't a little stressed, since it takes a great deal for some to actually start showing it.

I don't feel it is at all sad that I've seen snakes mistake eachother for food, seen them stress eaachother out, seen how impossible it can be to monitor a snake precisely in a community, seen snakes make eachother sick, etc. It's a good to learn things firsthand. This wasn't a horrible place, the animals were well-fed, kept clean, the only thing I didn't agree with was indeed the few animals that were housed together from time to time (most were seperate). Yes, some of these setups even worked for a couple years before anything serious happened. With all that, and the countless times I've heard 'well it's worked well for me for years' in response to when one of the forementioned issues erupted in their own collection. I can only conclude that if nothing happens, it is basically just luck, and more often than not, it simply will not work. You can try and match snakes accordingly, quarantine, etc., and while all that is great, it still doesn't remove the risks by any means.

Yes, I do feel strongly on this topic, but I never lock myself out. I've seen LOTS of hard proof that communities are risky business, but haven't seen anything to discredit any of it.

In the end it's everyone's own choice, but you have to expect that a good portion of is do not feel this is a safe method by any means, and are trying to prevent novice keepers from being what we deem as misinformed. I've seen newbies upset because their buddy has been doing it for 20 years, but when they did it, their snake ate the other :flick:

I'm said everything I need to on that topic... lol... and I don't have time to keep writing these long-winded responses :p However, I cannot help but notice you also have duct tape in your enclosures...

[Gary D.]

Linds, you keep asking for *one* possible benefit. I would enjoy seeing your thoughts on the possibilities I presented.

GD

[Linds]

Gary,
Displays that zoos are able to facilitate are generally far larger and elaborate than we are able to acheive in our homes. They are able to offer the snakes enough personal space, where even 'large' enclosures by most people standards, still tend to force the animals in to eachother's personal space. Though not without risk, there is definitely the benefit to snakes being in a more naturalistic environment and allowing a great deal more excercise for the animals. Zoo displays also try to cater to more geographically accurate environments, as that is ultimately the goal of zoos and educational programs. Snakes are not born in to 4' boxes, and I will always be one to say if you can give your snake a huge environment, then kudos, but to it is often an impractical goal to try to acheive successfully. My comments were directed towards animals being communally housed in moderately sized enclosures, etc. I do not believe that doubling the space to house two snakes together, especially those of different origin, is adequate enough, nor should it be promoted as such (again, in my eyes). In contrast, although I know I can comment across quite strong in my belief, housing a few snakes together is not the be all end all either by any means, although I do not see it as being the safest environment for long-term housing. All I was simply asking is what the motivations could be for someone to choose taking all those risks worthwhile, when the alternative is available. I'm always open to discussion, and many times other's opinions have helped mine grow... either stronger, or to change altogether. On this subject however, I have yet to see any arguement that would sway my opinion. I still do not feel that communal housing is the safest way to permanently house any animals, nor should it be promoted as though it is, especially to novice keepers. :rsmile: