Boa & Python Breeding together

[Goopers5]

Has anyone ever heard of a Boa and Python Breeding? We had eggs hatch last night and they are from a Columbian Boa (Male) and an Albino Burmese Python (Female) I know this doesn't sound possible, but it happened! Can anyone help me, or give me someone to contact? I have pictures and everything and some are healthy and some are deformed... (one eye, etc)

I appreciate any help you might be able to give me, no one believes me so far....

Goopers

[HouseofSerpents]

I have not heard of a successful crossing like that. Please post pics, I am most curious.

[Goopers5]

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4285922115

Here is the album from the pictures from last night, some of the ones in the group pictures have since passed, but a lot are still alive....

[thunder]

please post pics!!!!
how sure are you? did u witness copulation? had the python been with any other male? i really want to see what these babies look like. i really wouldnt have thought it possible, but if u could post some pics, i would be fascinated.

[Goopers5]

The two snakes have lived together for about nine years in the same place, they are my boyfriends, but I am trying to help research this since it is crazy (especially since as you probably know Boa's give birth to live young). I posted the album a couple threads above. I don't have any pictures of the Boa right now because last night he was at another house, but Burmese is in there

[Goopers5]

Oh ya, and I think they are all albino too, they are so cool looking (the ones that are healthy, the one eyed one is mine though :) )

[JonD]

post some pics of the babies

[Goopers5]

There is a link a couple posting up

[Goopers5]

ANy thoughts anyone? We are sure of the types of snakes, and not sure if this has happened before...

[BoidKeeper]

Well this is going to turn out interesting I'm sure.
Can anyone help me, or give me someone to contact?
Help you with what? Contact who, for what?
Trevor

[Goopers5]

If this is rare, I want ot be able to, I don't know, maybe to talk to someone who has heard of this before? If there is a way to care for the ones that are deformed or if they are SOL. I don't know any herpatologists so I can't call anyone, and any of the vets I called didn't know what to do.

[djc3674]

As much as I would like to view these pics, because I am a bit skeptical. However, I really don't feel like signing up for an account just to view your pics. Can you post the pics in the thread? All you have to do is open a pic in your albumn, right click on it, select properties and copy the URL. Then you can reply to your thread, select IMG, paste the copy of the URL. VIOLA!!

Thanks

Doug

[Goopers5]

Do these work? THere are 21 pics, so I will send only a few, let me know if you want more:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pc16bcb8dc7d4e374052b3454d27aeb9d/f770f92b.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p4d6b9ba72fb737b0d65d679168996bba/f770fa34.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p346549e52fb8fec55c374409d62e702f/f770f9f3.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pd826b3e764980b1c2d604fa457b9789c/f770f952.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pa18ad59e535892c21b46db573842afb9/f770f93d.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p8f9279e8543c6658228347426b43d737/f770f9d5.jpg

[Goopers5]

C:\Documents and Settings\\My Documents\Snakes[/IMG]

[thunder]

alright, i can see that they are albino and that some of them are deformed. i can't tell by these pics that they are hybrids, tho. maybe some closeups of individuals would help. do they have boa-like traits? in one of the pictures, i thought i saw one that was kind of tan colored and patternless, but it could have just been the light. are they all relatively similar or is there a lot of variation in the clutch? any more pics u can take would help me figure this whole thing out.

[Goopers5]

I will take pictures tonight when I get home, I will get close ups, they are relatively similar, but I am not a good one to ask honestly, this is my boyfriends area, so I will ask him. I know it doesn't sound true, but I wouldn't waste my time.... :) He's the snake guy, there are now about 14 in our house...

[BoidKeeper]

Before you are going to have a leg to stand on while making this claim you are going to need much, much better pics including individual pics of the parents as well as copulation pics, ovulation pics and birth pics. However, since I belive that is simple not possible given that boas and pythons are two different species I doubt we'll see any of those pics. At this point as a mod I'm treating this thread as being posted by a troll.
Here's hoping you prove me wrong,
Trevor

[Goopers5]

I really don't care if you believe me, I will post the pictures either tonight or tomorrow if I can, but definitely this weekend, you can believe whatever you want, I just want to figure out how to care for the snakes. I know this sounds crazy, but the two snakes are the only ones that have been around each other... You can do whatever you like.

If there is someone who knows where I could call (a herpatologist, zoo, anything) to try to help care for these things, please let me know!

[Goopers5]

I actually I stopped reading your post after the first sentence, I obviously don't have copulation or ovulation pictures since these are already born, and we were not expecting them to do this and we didn't find the eggs until about a week after they were laid... sorry.

[BoidKeeper]

What types of snakes are they and which is the male and which is the female?
Trevor

[Goopers5]

It's a Columbian Boa (Male), and an Albino Burmese Python (Female), I didn't mean to be rude, but no one is believing us and it is frustrating, I am sorry (we do know it is crazy, but it is true).... I am going there in a couple hours and will get back on and post the pictures of the "father"

[Tim_Cranwill]

The reason no one believes you is because it is an outlandish claim with no proof to back it up while there IS tons of proof to prove your claim impossible. I personally doubt it's true. Why would the babies be albino? Unless your boa is a het albino, which I STRONGLY doubt given that you've had it for 9 years.

Interesting? Yes.
Bizarre? Yes.
True? I doubt it.
Possible? I doubt it.
Wrong? I personally think it is.

I’ll be waiting to see the pics/proof though…

[djc3674]

Goopers.....you didn't post those pics correctly. Try again please. When I click one of the links you pasted, I get a Forbidden message. I am skeptical, but I won't say that your full of sh*t yet. However, when making this sort of claim, you need to provide cold hard proof, because honestly I don't see how a boa can breed w/ a python, yes they are both snakes, but there are alot of factors that are against it happening.

[BoidKeeper]

How did you incubate the eggs and at what temp?

[Goopers5]

The Boa is not albino, and I wouldn't believe it either. But my basic thing is, it is true, and I am trying to find a herpatologist or someone who would want to research this, or know what to do with these baby snakes since it is "impossible" but happened. Any tips on how to find someone? I have no idea why the babies are albino, I guess that is part of the wierdness of the entire situation. Unless a python snuck into our house, into the cage, mated with the female and left, or if the python is asexual (which they are not) then they are the Boa's babies. This actually could be one of the few instances of this happening and I can't get help to have this documented in any way or studied I am very sorry you don't believe me and I guess I can't expect you to.

If anyone knows anyone I can call please let me know!

THanks.

[Goopers5]

DJ3674 - I tried to post the pictures, but I think you have to sign up for that thing to see them, if you want I can email them to you.
I realize this is crazy, but the only way to prove it at this point is science, and we have the ones still that didn't make it.

We let her incubate them, put pete moss on the eggs and sprayed them with water constantly

[Kimo]

well im a bit skeptical myself...however, looking over those pictures in the album are putting some questions in my head, basically how in the hell do you get a clutch that looks so deformed, colour patterns extremely bizzare, unless somthing really freaky happened here...im not saying this is all true...and i for one know nothing about deformities in snakes, i was under the impression that to get pretty much a whole clutch of deformed babies like these, there would need to be some SERIOUS inbreeding going on...but that alone still doesnt account for the really messed up patterns on some of those...but hey I'm game and willing to learn more here about whats going on

keep us updated (hopefully with better pics!!)

Kimo

[ssscales]

That pic looks modified...

[BoidKeeper]

What do you think a herpetologist can do for you? As far as how to take care of the babies what is it you need to know? Freeze anything suffering and set the rest up like you would any other litter/clutch of babies. However, the fact that you are keeping a burm and a boa together revels your ignorance of snake husbandry and I don't expect you know how to set up babies do you?
Trevor

[Derrick]

Call a local university they may be intrested or my be able to point you to an institution that would be capable and intrested in doing some genetic testing. I a rank amature but they all look like burms to me.

how in the hell do you get a clutch that looks so deformed, colour patterns extremely bizzare
Improper incubation would be my guess.

I'ld be intrested to find out if they were all female. That may suggest an "imaculate conception" of sorts. I think I read of a few unconfirmed reports of female snakes laying fertile eggs with out a mate.

[Scales Zoo]

I can't see the pictures, but you seem sincere that something unexplainable has happened.

Email me at scaleszoo@saskel.net

I think I know a few people who would be interested in studying the baby snakes. There is someone trying to study female snakes that may have reproduced without being with a male, the other supposed case I've heard of was an albino burmese female I think.

Freeze any that have died - don't throw them away.

[Goopers5]

Well, two responses:

1) You can think the pictures are modified, don't care, they are not.

2) Second, if this is SO unbelievable, what is the problem with keeping the two together, they were NOT kept together for this purpose in any way.

Basically, if this is such a "miracle" that is "impossible" I am thinking that a herpatologist or someone in the scientific field would want to know abou this. At least if something "impossible" happened in my field, I would love to know about it....

We do not breed snakes, this just happened, my boyfriend has had snakes since he was a kid, he studies them, and does know how to care for the snakes. So the babies that are normal will be taken care of, I am simply trying to see if there is anything to do for the ones that are different, if they need to be frozen, fine, but which ones do? Do you freeze the one with one eye, or is he/she going to be okay.

I understand everyone not believing me, trust me, you all are not the first since this happened.

[Goopers5]

THANK you Scales zoo, I am emailing you now. THANK YOU!

[Scales Zoo]

I'm looking forward to your email.

I signed up to that picture site, and they look like normal deformed albino burmese pythons - we have 7 just like them in our freezer.

Now, if the female has never been with a male burm in her entire life - these babies are still very interesting, and DNA testing should be able to see if the babies are clones of the mother, or if some male burm sperm found itsway near her at some point.

Ryan

[Goopers5]

That is totally possible, if the female can lay fertile eggs w/o out being fertilized, then that would explain that more, we are assuming they mated, but maybe she had an immaculate conception?

[Goopers5]

Unless when she hatched with the other burmese (9 years ago) I have no clue how snake sperm works... I am totally dumb when it comes to that area, but if it could survive 9 years?? THen maybe... I would like to find an explanation just like anyone else!

THANK YOU!

[Goopers5]

I will be back later to submit more pictures, I am going there now, thank you for trying to help!

[Goopers5]

Also, sorry if any of my answers seem sarcastic, I don't mean them to sound that way, I am trying to figure this thing out... At this point, anything is possible I guess :)....

[Invictus]

We do not breed snakes, this just happened, my boyfriend has had snakes since he was a kid, he studies them, and does know how to care for the snakes.

WRONG. Your boyfriend knows NOTHING about snakes, or he would have known that one of those snakes is from South America, and one is from Asia. They DO NOT live together in the wild, and they SHOULD NOT be housed together in captivity. If your boyfriend knew the first thing about snakes, he would know that they are solitary animals. He would also know that any two snakes of opposite gender, if left together long enough, may copulate (if one doesn't eat the other first), and that's how severe deformities occur. He would also know that maternal incubation gives the eggs about a 10% survival rate, IF that. It seems that your boyfriend knows only what the snakes are called. Beyond that, he's as uneducated about proper care and husbandry as anyone else who houses 2 different species from 2 different continents together.

[nicola_boulton]

well this post is VERY interesting.... looking at those pics, and after reading all 3pages i belive that these 2 differnt snakes have actually bred.
Amzing babies, please try posting the pics up in your gallery so you can show everyone, very interesting!

[mykee]

"Yeah!" (standing behind Invictus swingin' arms wildly). The pieces of the puzzle just don't add up. If this is legitimate, it's unfortunate that it has happened to such an irresponsible pair of snake owners.

[BoidKeeper]

I just looked at the pics and to me they look like nothing more then a clutch of albino burms that were incubated at the wrong temps which can and does affect pattern and caused deformed neonates. My guess is that you have a normal burm that is het for albino.
But like I said prove me wrong, or don't. Either way, and you can get offened if you feel the need to, but I and many, many other people will never belive you with out proff. As a matter of fact I would suggest that with out proff you stop wasting your time trying to tell people you did the impossible.
Trevor

[Scales Zoo]

Trevor - they came to this site looking for someone who could help them figure out what the heck went on. With the welcome they got, I hope they still remain a member of this site.

If everyone who encountered something weird or hard to explain got told to quit wasting everyones time, science would never learn anything. There are some people who suspect that a few snakes have reproduced without sperm. Cooper25, with these snakes, might have proof of that with DNA of the snakes - they said it's never been with another burm since it hatched 9 years ago. The other albino burm was supposedly old too.

If a higher form of life like this has been able to reproduce itself, it is like something out of jurassic park.

Ryan

[BoidKeeper]

Sorry Ryan but I think this is the work of a troll. I said prove me wrong.
Trevor

[Dom]

There is NO boa influence at all in those babies... none what so ever ..

to me there was an albino male burm in the picture at some time or u're female did conceive witout any males (I doubt it but don't rule it out) .. DNA would be the only way to know ..

Although technically, all patterns would need to be identical but we all know incubation temps affect patterns and as we can obviously tell the incubabtion was next to horrible..

My opinion is freeze anything deformed.. anything alive that u think has a chance of survival, house like you would house any neonate burm and hope for the best .. Although .. I can tell u not many will make it .. they look like unhealthy regular albino burmese pythons to me ..

Just my though ..

[Matt_K]

Are there any pics of the boa?? I looked at all the pics with the exception of the imagestation ones, I have zero interest in signing up for something just to look at some pics.. Is it infact a boa??? Who knows anymore.. LOL.. This is interesting to say the least...

[dave68]

Someone's full of stinky brown stuff!LOL! Proofs in the pics bring em on baby!!

Dave

[mk-ultra]

3 possibilities here .

1- You guys are the lucky owner of a really rare hermaphrodite burmese python ( would explain the fact that all of them are albino ) and that you guys really dont know how to incubate eggs .

2- Your burm came into contact with another albino burm at some point .

3- Its all fake .

Thats all there is to say .

If you are an honest person take that burm to a lab to have it checked out . Otherwise quit wasting everyones time .

[Goopers5]

Well, the only thing I can think of is that it would be number 1. Do you know if there are websites or where to call to find a lab that does this sort of testing? (I don't want ot go to a normal vet).

To anyone who doesn't believe me, sorry, and as far as the incubation goes, you are right, we don't breed snakes, weren't quite sure what to do and the snake was so stressed when we took the eggs away, we got out the dead ones and gave them back to her so she didn't kill herself. Was it the right choice, maybe/maybe not, I wish they had formed better too, not our intention to breed deformed snakes.

Scales Zoo - THANK YOU! for being so nice, unfortunately, I will not remain a member of this site and I do feel bad for people who come here looking for help and get treated like an idiot, I was admitting I did not know what was going on. If you like, when we find a lab and get the testing done, I can email you and let you know what happened, it should be interesting... :)

Also, thank you to anyone else who was nice!

[Goopers5]

I am updating the pictures too (there's one of the Boa) The snakes are a lot healthier today and now that they are moving around it looks like out of 21 eggs, we got 2 deformed (one severly and one with one eye) and 13 lived. THanks for everything!

Here you go

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4285922115

[HeatherRose]

I'm surprised no one brought up what Invictus did sooner...I couldn't agree more.

Your boyfriend clearly is a moron when it comes to keeping snakes, two snakes from different ends of the WORLD can't be kept together like that. I'd try to be mature about this, but this is just too friggin dumb.

[crocdoc]

Goopers5, that's the same photo again. We can't view your album without signing on to that photo hosting site, so you'll have to post the URLs for the individual photos as you have done in an earlier post.

Having looked at the photos of the babies, I'd agree with BoidKeeper that they are all just albino Burmese babies that have been incubated at an improper temperature, therefore the deformities. Nothing in their appearance would suggest boa influence, particularly the fact that they are all albinos, like the mother.

It is remotely possible that they are occasionally parthenogenic: ie capable of producing offspring in the absence of a male or when a male's sperm triggers the eggs to start developing without actually contributing any genetic material, which happens with some fish species.

I don't know if either of these situations have been recorded in pythons (there are some parthenogenic snakes, though, and many parthenogenic lizards). If parthenogenesis has occured, you wouldn't need to look at the DNA but simply count the chromosomes, for the offspring would have half the normal complement.

The offspring wouldn't need to be identical to the mother, for when females produce eggs they aren't identical to each other genetically. She has two alleles for each gene (being a normal female she'd have a paired set of chromosomes) and for each gene each egg can get either of the two alleles. Multiply this by the number of genes and the combinations and permutations are endless.

Having said all of this, I am personally very doubtful that this is a hybridisation between a boa and a python or that parthenogenesis has actually occurred. I'd be looking at that time you went on holidays and left the python with a friend who also has pythons, or the time your friend brought their python over to see how it would get along with yours...

[Goopers5]

Well, what happened happened, now we are dealing with it... but thanks for your maturity in the situation! :)

[Goopers5]

Thank you Croc, that's the type of help I was looking for! (not to get yelled at) :) I really appreciate your help!

[Goopers5]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pdff1bb4c685939e79e6e5c28ee18dd80/f7704322.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pc27ed3db96afddf1382fad5133d1d1f3/f770431f.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p46737d751678383b3687e99dd9476122/f7704318.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p2cf58ff2c78969a4901d8a7da594e245/f7704751.jpg

Do these work?

[Goopers5]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pdff1bb4c685939e79e6e5c28ee18dd80/f7704322.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p46737d751678383b3687e99dd9476122/f7704318.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pc27ed3db96afddf1382fad5133d1d1f3/f770431f.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p2cf58ff2c78969a4901d8a7da594e245/f7704751.jpg

Or this?

[Clownfishie]

I don't know if this will work, but as I was already an Imagestation member I was able to get in and view the whole album... so let's see if I can post the pics for everyone to look at.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pc16bcb8dc7d4e374052b3454d27aeb9d/f770f92b.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p4d6b9ba72fb737b0d65d679168996bba/f770fa34.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p3c66aef92bde4c86f72efe7f53224d88/f770f976.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p346549e52fb8fec55c374409d62e702f/f770f9f3.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p29382850b253aa9d70904fb92ee8590a/f770f961.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p1baf22c850d0d190bec3b80b4b9ea67b/f770f9fa.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pdde0ea521e42063697ba5205e5edfb68/f770f90a.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p9c93695054cbed07847726f2a42022b2/f770f9b9.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pd826b3e764980b1c2d604fa457b9789c/f770f952.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p0b1c67a3a458bda4ed5868d9ae7b7b37/f770f91c.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pa18ad59e535892c21b46db573842afb9/f770f93d.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p9c3f894ccf5bf053795c8c903eac3b34/f770f8ff.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p7b65c73cfc88f51d49a8846e2a046ad3/f770fa29.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pce95d9f1f494e16b528b9e0aaa8604f2/f770f9a7.jpg

[Goopers5]

I think it worked that time, sorry, I don't go on forums usually so I am not used to posting pictures...

[Goopers5]

THANK YOU!

[Goopers5]

The pictures at the end of the album are today's where they are looking a lot healthier, they are snapping and everything! Moving all over, it is a very cool thing to see!

[Clownfishie]

Part 2...

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pd937b404b3b4ea969ea6677110ce1181/f770fa0a.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p965e6526ca54582c4d9f92b960bbfde5/f770f9c7.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p8f9279e8543c6658228347426b43d737/f770f9d5.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pb2d8e48162149ae9de4b1ee29cda5431/f770fa4e.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pa2189ceae545044a8f6040daddb5592e/f770f994.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p642a41d19e891b1eaa065b69de0f8d4b/f770fa12.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p8ad4914be871db13daaf95ee7aa3e3bc/f770fa1b.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p33cf0b780196fcc9c1a6679b498eb6bd/f7704313.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p24f18f67ea61b0062cb65471453756f2/f770431d.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/pdff1bb4c685939e79e6e5c28ee18dd80/f7704322.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p2cf58ff2c78969a4901d8a7da594e245/f7704751.jpg.orig.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid134/p46737d751678383b3687e99dd9476122/f7704318.jpg.orig.jpg

[Clownfishie]

Well.... on my screen, a few of those pics worked. Most of them didn't though.

There is indeed a pic of a bci in there (one of the ones that doesn't seem to be working)... whether he's actually the father of the babies, I highly doubt. I don't see anything boa-like in any of those babies...

Regardless of what happened, or didn't happen though -- I must STRONGLY agree with what Invictus said... snakes are solitary creatures, and should NOT be kept together. ESPECIALLY two completely different species. If your boyfriend knew anything about keeping snakes in proper conditions, he would know that. Please do what's right for your snakes, and provide them with their own enclosures.

I wish you luck with what babies manage to survive.


Jen

[Goopers5]

Thank you for the input, we understand that they shoudln't be together, and I think that may what crocdoc had said could have happened... we will check into it and they will be separate at all times from now on (they weren't together day in day out and they were not fed in the same cage if that helps make you feel better a little). Thank you for the advice on keeping them separate and posting the pictures. There are about 13 that are alive and kicking so we should be okay... considering the circumstances.

[Matt_K]

It looks like they're being housed in an aquarium??? And the glass looks to have about 38784979379834 fingerprints and god knows what else on there.. Might wanna clean that once in a while.

[Goopers5]

The prints are on the outside, we are in the process of moving...

[Goopers5]

They actually are usually in a LARGE enclosure that isn't in the pictures.

[Tim_Cranwill]

I gotta ask...

Is that "pile" the burm is resting it's head on the clutch of eggs?

Yeesh, what a nightmare...

[Goopers5]

Yes, it was covered in peat (pete?) moss, by the time we realized it had laid eggs, it had crushed the top layer... and yes, we are not breeders, we tried our best...

[Scales Zoo]

Croc Doc, Katt was telling me about parthenogenic snakes today -and all the ones she knows of are live bearing. I had no idea this was proven already with any reptile. She's got her fancy book learnin!

Anyways, it would be interesting to find out if the female albino burm in this case reproduced on her own. I'm sure a university would pay the money to do the DNA study. Pythons reproducing on their own is unyet proven as far as I know, and it sounds like this may be a case for study.

Ryan

[Goopers5]

I will call the universities in my area (tomorrow and see if anyone is in) and Monday if I don't get anyone, it would be nice if they paid for the DNA tests, I am guessing that ain't cheap ;). Wasn't sure how to afford that one :)

[Goopers5]

I am done for the night, I have been on the computer 7 hours about now, if you like I will keep you updated on any tests we get done! Thanks to everyone!

[Ryan and Katie]

With the huge amount of info you can find in the world at the touch of button, that's your best? If you are going to keep an animal try to give it the respect of knowing how to best care for it. I hope that you can at least learn something from what alot of people have said in this thread. Maybe you should invest in a book on burms?
Good luck with the babies...

[madison.s]

well you must have excepted this type of response as this is a very froned apond thing. you should never have allowed this to happen wheather you are or are not a breeder. I have snakes and know that you do not put 2 different snakes together,never mind male and female.you must have been trying to do this so you could make a new breed,please only someone that is brain dead or someone trying to do this would house them together,wheather or not they can breed. Man this is horrible what you guys have done to these snakes and the babies. why would you even incubate the eggs knowing that they were 2 different snakes(if that is even the truth). Your boyfriend is not very smart is he. My thing is i have always said that someone stupid would try this to make themselfs famous and looky looky what happend. Again if this is even true which i am banking on NOT TRUE. Remember you 2 have done a horrible thing to those babies.

[stha4]

hey goopers i would be interested in what you find out please email me also if you could. amandamv62@hotmail.com

[Goopers5]

Liz lady & Katie & Ryan, You can all think we are horrible, if we were trying to be famous, I wouldn't be talking to you would I? We read books and let the snake incubate the eggs the way the books said too, I am sorry if you would rather take the eggs away, I don't know what to tell you, I never pretended it wasn't in this entire thing was the perfect example of anything, I have apologized and there is not much more I can do. would you think something would actually live? and the babies we have are fine (except for one, which could happen to anyone). I realize we made a mistake, I am sorry you never have. The reason I came here was for help becuase I didn't know what to do, I never pretended anything different.

Quick question for you though, do you think if we were trying to be famous, we would have let nature takes its' course and let her incubate them herself, or do you think we would have incubated them, we were trying to look after the snake. As I said, we never thought anything would hatch, otherwise I would have started asking about this several weeks ago. Good thought about us doing this on purpose, but it's wrong, if that was the case, I would have been asking how much they were worth, not how to care for them. I hope no one around you ever make mistakes in their life and then tries to fix it, cause man they have another thing coming.

People have offered privately from this whole string to help me and I will work with them to make sure the babies get the best care they deserve.

I will email you stha4

[Ryan and Katie]

Goopers5- I don't think you took our post right. We don't believe that those are crosses... So this has nothing to do with fame or mixed breeding. We don't think you're horrible it just can be frustrating to see something that could have been dealt with better if you had a little bit more info.
You mentioned maternal incubation being better for the snake. You may want to do a little more research. Artificial incubation generally results in better hatch rates and the female can be fed soon after laying instead of waiting for the eggs to hatch. Maternal incubation requires specific environmental conditions to be met and is typically harder to do with any good rates of success. Everyone makes mistakes but it is your job as a responsible snake keeper to ensure you make as few as possible. There is always more to learn.
It's nice to see that there are people willing to help and I hope that you get good advice on the care of the babies and the adults...

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

Invictus, YOU HIT THE NAIL RIGHT ON THE HEAD!

C.

BTW: Gooper25: I dont think the university would pay for that, as they would have no reason to believe you once they heard everything that happened. They would get you to pay for the tests and if infact something interesting did happen, then they might cover it.

C.

[Minnow]

Do any of you own cats or dogs? If so have you researched them until you know it all? If there was a forum on cats/dogs, I would hope you could post there and get good information and NOT be condemned by the 'regulars' for not being informed.
Housing two totally different types of snakes? My logic says that would be like housing a cat and a dog in the same house. Many do it. If they don't fight it works right?
The fact that so many of the eggs hatched means they did sometning right. Nature has a way of helping out even the not so informed keepers of His creatures.
So, instead of being so critical of somebody, let's try to help!
This forum is becoming so critical that even I am afraid to ask any questions for fear that is is common knowledge to someody that learned it along the way........by trial and error or by research. Isn't this site about helping us 'don't know it all's'?
So think back to the first snake you owned. Did you not learn by asking?
Carol

[HeatherRose]

Housing two totally different types of snakes? My logic says that would be like housing a cat and a dog in the same house. Many do it. If they don't fight it works right

Two snakes aren't a dog and a cat, snakes are solitary animals....these snakes are from different ends of the earth with different requirements also, it's impossible to provide perfect husbandry for BOTH snakes.

[HetForHuman]

Originally posted by Minnow
Do any of you own cats or dogs? If so have you researched them until you know it all? If there was a forum on cats/dogs, I would hope you could post there and get good information and NOT be condemned by the 'regulars' for not being informed.
Housing two totally different types of snakes? My logic says that would be like housing a cat and a dog in the same house. Many do it. If they don't fight it works right?
The fact that so many of the eggs hatched means they did sometning right. Nature has a way of helping out even the not so informed keepers of His creatures.
So, instead of being so critical of somebody, let's try to help!
This forum is becoming so critical that even I am afraid to ask any questions for fear that is is common knowledge to someody that learned it along the way........by trial and error or by research. Isn't this site about helping us 'don't know it all's'?
So think back to the first snake you owned. Did you not learn by asking?
Carol

Alot of people do not pay attention, they will just hit the new thread button, and ask a question that has been asked a million times, and alot of the times there is a thread on the same thing two threads down from there new one..

The search tab on this site is a wonderful thing, i say try it out before asking a question, you may get more than you thought you would out of it, as there is 6000 members here now...

Snakes are not cats and dogs, and you do not house a cat and a dog in a 4 foot cage do you? Big difference here. Everyone thinks, oh my snakes are so happy together, they like being together, blah, blah, blah. HOW DO YOU KNOW???? Are you Dr.Doolittle?? Do they smile at you and say they are happy...

Yes i asked alot of questions when i had my first snake, but i recieved alot of bad answers too.. This was before i ever found this site. Once i found this site and a few others it was smooth sailing..
And i also learned by reading books, and other information too that 2 snakes should not be housed together unless for breeding purposes, its only common sense IMO...

Before you start getting into these or any other animal for that matter, DO THE RESEARCH!!!!!!!!!!!

[Katt]

Honestly, the thread is just sick. Many of you should be ashamed of yourself and your conduct, especially those of you who don't have a lot of snake experience coming off as some sort of Snake Guru. I applaud the non-believers who asked for proof in a civil way non accusatory way.

A little research would have yielded you these links. A much more plausible explaination.

http://www.rnw.nl/science/html/030224snake.html

http://www.king snake.com/aho/pdf/menu3/groot2003.pdf

http://home.pcisys.net/~dlblanc/Parthenogenesis.html

Gooper, unfortunately, when you make "outlandish' claims, people will jump down your throat especially without proof and especially b/c what "proof" you do have, isn't not that easily accessible. I think the above links will explain what happened with your burmese. Still remarkable nonetheless. However, with the deformed babies, I recommend you end their suffering.

[Goopers5]

Thank you Katt!

[BoidKeeper]

Good post Katt. I asked for proof, but not with out being critical of the whole husbandry issue as well, I see nothing wrong with that. Criticism with out attack is possible. I also challenged them to prove me wrong as well. However, from my first post all the way to this post I still suspect that all of this is the work of a troll. If I am proven wrong, great, I'll be the first to offer up an apology. For the record I said they were ignorant of snake husbandry, not ignorant in general. I see this thread turning away from a boa/python breeding question to that of a spontaneous birth caused only by the python it's self. Now that is something I can entertain and follow with some skepticism but with a far great open mind then to that of a claim of a boa/python pairing. If in fact there was no second python the fact that they are all albino is very interesting. Imagine an albino snake that can reproduce all by its self and produce nothing but albinos! If that were the case even I would want to keep a burm.
Finally I think it is unfortunate that if this is real they didn't start doing research sooner on how to incubate the eggs. So many more would have survived. Regardless of my criticism and skepticisms they have nowhere to go but up from here.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Siretsap]

...
I do not see why people were bashing on the fact that a burmes and a boa will have copulated.... People do it with cornsnakes and kingsnakes and milksnakes....

If it did happen it was not intentionnaly.

Hopefully there will be a dna test done on it to find out what really happened.

As for the rest of the posts, well it's typical for this webcite to act in this way, always has been and prob will always be...

[Goopers5]

When I find a place to do the DNA/Chromosome/whatever testing that needs to be done, I will let you know. Since "virgin birth" seems more likely (while none of the options seem likely :) ) I will keep you updated, in my original post, that outlandish thought of the two breeding made more sense than an immaculate conception, that never crossed my mind:) ). THank you again to those who have helped me start to try figure this out and thank you to those who have privately said they will help me with the babies.

[Derrick]

Originally posted by PuNkuPoNAsTAR
Two snakes aren't a dog and a cat, snakes are solitary animals....these snakes are from different ends of the earth with different requirements also, it's impossible to provide perfect husbandry for BOTH snakes.

Frankly I think its a perfect annology. Many cats are solitary animals. Felis and Canis don't cohabitat in the wild. Dog gets mad at cat and chases it around the house is the cat stressed...Ya. Ever heard the expression the expression "fight like cats and dogs"? The species even fight amongst themsleves. But people keep them together all the time. Can they live together for years with out a major incident sure. Should they live together, I don't know but probably not.

As far as not being able to provide perfect husbandy. How many people here actually provide PERFECT husbandry. I wouldn't rubbermaids/wooden boxes and newspaper perfect husbandry but the snakes seem content trive and reproduce in these conditions. I keep my snakes this way so its not a comment on the general husbandry around here just the perfection of it(prefectly efficient) As far as meeting thier needs goes except for the whole solitary issue there is enough leeway in any caresheet I've read to meet the needs of both snakes in the same enclosure.

As far as calling this persons boyfriend a moron or saying the know nothing about snakes thats a little ignorant and over the top. If he knew absolutly nothing about snakes then they would be dead. But they could probably use some helpful infromation. By my count they achieved quite a bit better than a 10% hatch rate with maternal incubation. Where did you get those numbers? Maybe you should save the smack down retoric for Favelle :D (he can handle it) and easy the new members into it.

Sorry for the rant but heavy handed criticism and ignorance isn't good for the site or contributing new members. It kinda turns people off and keeps them from comming back and actually learning what they should be doing(I dont claim never to have been rude hehe just ask jen or marisa...sorry. But I try to check myself now before I hit the subit reply button)

hehe slow day at work

also as far as the 6000 members goes I wonder what that would drop to if they cleaned out the database of members who haven't visited in the last 6 months or even year.

[Goopers5]

THank you, I have contacted a couple universities in the area and a friend who works in labs that may know someone we can call, we hope to hear back soon... THANKS!

[BoidKeeper]

People do it with cornsnakes and kingsnakes and milksnakes....
Those snakes all lay eggs and very closely related and often share the same habbitates. Colombian boas and burms live on opposite sides of the planet and have different reproductive systems. Boa have live birth and pythons lay eggs. So before being critical of the sceptics, understand why they are being sceptics.
Trevor

[JDouglas]

Great info Katt! I would also end the suffering of the deformed babies.

Maybe you could contact the people mentioned in the articles?

Also, you could get more informed on egg incubation and husbandry and maybe you will get another clutch next year from parthenogenesis and be more prepared. There are many threads on how to construct an incubator and if you have any questions just ask. I will be happy to help!

[Goopers5]

I actually saw the Colorado Herpetological Society in one of the articals, so I contact the one in my state too... we shall see. THANKS!

[gonesnakee]

Well I wasn't going to touch this when I first saw it yesterday, but I'll throw in my 2 cents. First - Whats done is done, slamming them for keeping them together & leaving the eggs there etc. etc. etc. doesn't change the past. We can only try to provide help for the future. People aren't going to follow your advice, even if it is good if you come across like an AHole. Secondly this could very well be a scientific first & if we look at the past, heck remember how they used to treat people who thought the world was round. Just because it is totally unbelievable doesn't mean it isn't true & not everyone in the world owns a digital camera & takes pics of everything and even if they do we all can mess with pics as much as we want so they offer very little in reguards to proof or evidence as far as I'm concerned. As stated the only way to find out for sure is DNA testing etc. & even then the whole "imaculate concept" thing would still be very hard to prove as we would all have to beleive that this snake was never with another of the opposite sex ever (with the exception of the boa which could be proved by the DNA). Anyhow its all very interesting & I would like to see a future thread(s) in reguards to this. So Goopers5 if you quit this site just because of a few people you are a fool as nothing anyone says means Jack unless you want it too & if everytime someone gives you a little attitude you'll "abandon ship", you'll find yourself missing out on alot of things in life as a result of that because no matter what or where there are people of all types whether we like it or not, can't just keep running from them you'll jsut find more elsewhere. I choose to ignore those that I can't be bothered with & we all must sift thru them to find out who is worthy of bothering to acknowledge & who is not. Anyhow irreguardless of whether you can prove it scientifically or not people will still always doubt you. Some of us are very interested though & would like to see you post info in reguards to such in the future. NUFF SAID Good Luck Mark
P.S. I too would recomend some research etc. into husbandry etc.

[Goopers5]

Thank you for your post. I have taken what people have said here and will be using a lot of it. My reaction was from shock, I have never been on a site like this since the snake interests of mine are minimal compared to my boyfriend whose snakes they are. I was simply trying to research what to do and how to handle this and I wasn't expecting such a rude reaction from so many people. I do sincerely appreciate the help people have given us and as soon as we get results (because this is just too much of a mistery to let go) I will let you know. I am assuming though it will be a little while to a) find someone who will do this testing and then b) get the results since I believe (not sure) that takes at least one or two weeks.

I will keep you posted! Thanks again!

[MouseKilla]

I would all but rule out the boa's having fathered this clutch but a normal person and most keepers have never heard of parthenogenesis, (which is at least a somewhat plausible explaination for this, though a remote one) so you can't fault these people for initially assuming that it takes two snakes to make baby snakes. Looking at them though it's absolutely obvious to me that there is zero boa influence, they're just some sad looking burms.

Of course it's more reasonable to think that she must have had contact with a male burm at some time but we're being told that there wasn't any such contact. We can believe them or not, it hasn't been an especially explosive thread so I don't think this is a case of trolling.

What I think likely happened is a couple of people, which I'll charitably refer to as "novice" keepers, have had an extremely rare event take place in their cage and are looking for an explanation. I think it's an honest inquiry and unfortunately the question has barely been adressed because the keeper's inexperience became known and attacked.

It's unfortunate because most of us, in particular those among us that are most experieced with keeping and breeding, would simply kill to have something as unusual and interesting as a parthenogenic clutch happen in their own cage.

[madison.s]

Goopers5,you should have known that you would get this type of response as this is very unlikely and i am sure did not happen at all. heres the thing if you did not want to be famous you would never have posted this post and ya whats done is done but the point still is that you incubated the eggs,you said in the beginning that you take all the eggs except the ones that were died and incubated them and left the others with the mom. right there that is saying that you were trying to have the eggs hatch. So you did do this on purpose (i am not saying it is real because i dont believe it) and why would you be wanting a univeristy to investgate it if you are not trying to what start a new breed. You should never have incubated the eggs at all. so what do you plan on doing with the babies if you are not trying to sell them as you say,what you are going to keep them all. I am really surprised how many people are ok with someone doing this(again not that this is true) well i guess you well make lots of money off of them if anyone acually beleives you. oh by the way housing 2 different snakes together is nothing like housing a dog and cat together really people look at this as another person trying to make a new breed or just lieing about it to make more money.

[dave68]

Yep and to an end we travel and the tides be turnin my friends. We all can get along with a smile and a kind word (clears throat)SORRY!! ya I'm an @$$#hole in the ground some times. I really do wish you well and good luck with those babies!!!

Dave

[Goopers5]

You can think whatever you want, it wasn't on purpose or to be famous. Thanks for your help!

[rwg]

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
...Colombian boas and burms live on opposite sides of the planet and have different reproductive systems. Boa have live birth and pythons lay eggs...

Are they really that different? Boas are ovoviviparous, not viviparous, meaning they hatch eggs internally, and bear the young live. Not saying it's like corns and kings...just not THAT different really.

rg

[Matt.B]

yes but pythons lay eggs correct me if im wrong

[rwg]

Correct. I'm just wondering how different the reproductive systems of ovoviviparous and oviparous snakes are. Certainly viviparous (nourished in utero via placenta) and oviparous are pretty different, but it seems to my naive understanding that ovoviviparous is more like oviparous than like viviparous as far as the actual anatomy and function of the reproductive system goes.

[hooter]

Interesting topic. I have no comments on the subject but i can tell you that the way you people treat new people just blows my mind. Just because you dont believe someone does not mean you put them down and automaticly think you know its fake/false.

Things do happen and if you want proof just ask for it im sure you could have asked for proof without putting someone down for their snake keep skills and or incubation skills... She already said she didnt breed snakes and just because you guys are SNAKE NERDS that have nothing better to do than to breed snakes 24/7 *not saying thats wrong because i do as well :P* but c'mon people lets get real and act our age...

[madison.s]

hooter, I think the only reason that people(including me) are being well less then nice is because she should never have housed them together and i think the only reason someone would put a python and boa together would be to try and breed them (that is my opinion),again why would someone that knows that their female has not been around another male of the same incubate the eggs unless she was trying to make themself "famous". really it is not that this may or may not be true it is the point behind it, not knowing how to incubate is one thing but why would you not ask for help with incubateing them before they hatched unless again you were up to something. it has nothin to do with being a new member,me personally i would say the same and feel the same weither it was a new member or even one of the MODs that posted something like this. either way it is very wrong.

[Goopers5]

PS after talking to my boyfriend regarding the subject of her incubating them herself, he also told me that in several books he has read, there is a higher chance of survival for Burmese Python eggs to hatch if they are incubated by the snake, not in a machine :). Thanks!

[ChokeOnSmoke]

I was just wondering if maybe having a male (pheromones, maybe attempting to breed) present in the cage could have had an effect on the parthenogenesis. Maybe she wasn't impregnated by him but some stimulation caused by the boa triggered the parthenogenetic pregnancy.
I know next to nothing about it, just a thought.

I don't agree with how some people were jumping all over you about the husbandry. You have to start somewhere and now that you have learned you can put that information to use. Like someone already said there isn't anything we can do about the past. Its done and now all we can do is improve the present and future.

A word of warning, if you keep hanging out on this you interest in snakes wont be minimal compared to your boyfriends. You will probably end up with your own collection.

[Goopers5]

I know, it's bad I have already claimed one... haven't held it yet, but it has to be one of the the few we don't give away eventually :)

Thanks for your help, I think someone else mentioned the same thing, the male may have triggered the beginning of fertilization in the female so you are not the only one to think of that, who knows!

I emailed a guy named Bob Clark that has a website about pythons (anyone know anything abou thim? He has a lot of articles dating back to the 80's so I thought he might be able to help...) and I have gotten some other email addresses from people, so hopefully we will figure it out.

THANKS!

[michele.kyle]

i am not sure what all this is but could one of them be like my corns? mate once then like a a rabbit absorb eggs therefore the male has nothing to do with it ? only a thought !

[Goopers5]

I don't know, from what I have heard, the python was only with other pythons when it hatched and I don't believe if there were any males in with her, they would be old enough to fertilizer her, so it can't be them... and she hasn't been with any other pythons... very interesting stuff, i have since found a lot of articles on Parthenogenesis, here's another one I found that is interesting...

http://www.albinoburmese.com/literature.htm

There is a link there to an article on Parthenogenesis

[madison.s]

Is this ever going to end,man you keep saying that whats done is done. So move on,if you gave(sold) them all then whats the problem. Its over . She was not pregant by the Boa so thats it then.

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

Lizlady: She never said that she took away the eggs to incubate them. She said that when she took them away when they were hatching, she gave the dead ones back to the mother, because the mother seemed "uneasy", if that word works. Also, how can you accuse her of wanting to be famous? They have been living together for 9 years, and some people are misinformed and do do so. Do you know how many people actually house different species of snakes together? And NOT for breeding. In a way, you are also accusing everybody that comes here for help of trying to be famous in your first post.

Goopers5:

My only other post in this thread was congratulating another member on what he said in reply to what you said your boyfriend knew how to care for snakes. I appologize, but in a way I do have to agree that he shouldnt have been housing them together. I encourage you to remain a member of this site and ignore what people tell you. I think most everybody jumped the point of all the times you said that you HAVE done research, nobody seemed to take that into account. Good luck in your search for the answer to this "happening"!

Chokeonsmoke: I must agree that your theory does make sense and seems somewhat fesable(sp?). However, would it be possible that a python would catch pheremones from a boa? And what kind of strength/influence, if any, would pheremones have in snakes?

C.

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

Sorry for the double post here, three others came up while I was typing.

Lizlady: What right do you have to tell her(yes, its NOT a man, like you keep saying), to stop talking about this, its not your thread anyways, your being fairly rude. Also, how would you know that they didnt actually breed together? Im not saying they did(and I dont think they did, no boa influence in the babies), but you cant rule anything out yet.

Goopers5: Wow, you always have new links from research! Keep searching, you might find the key in your searches!

C.

[BoidKeeper]

mate once then like a a rabbit absorb eggs therefore the male has nothing to do with it ?
Snakes do not reabsorb eggs, snake reabsorb follicles. Also corns routinely double clutch with out having been re-introduced to a male. It is the male she bred with however that is responsible for the clutch.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Goopers5]

Well, good news, we found someone who wants to do the blood tests! I just have to send them the blood... (anyone know how to send snake blood through the mail he he he :) )

Liz lady: Okay, if you're SO interested in snakes, and SO interested in their wellbeing and their lives, why are you asking why I am still writing? I don't even own any myself per say (they live in my house, but they are not "mine") and I am completely amazed by what this one particular snake has accomplished! If I were you, and so upset by our "treatment" of these animals that have lived for 9 YEARS without having any diseases and have grown and prospered, I would still want to know how this amazing thing happened. I guess you are more concerned with criticizing the mistakes that were made in the past than actually realizing, we acknowledge those mistakes, have taken steps to rectify them and have apologized. I am sorry that you are so unhappy, but, if we wanted to be famous, let me ask you a quick question, do you know my name, do you even know what country I live in? If you can answer either of those questions, either you have talked to the one person I talked to off line, or you are a computer hacker that has somehow hacked in to mine and found out. Cause I have not adverstised any of my personal information. Kind of important to advertise at least your name if you want to be famous right? maybe?

Anyways, the reason I do keep posting is because there seems to be interest ( I am extremely interested :) ), if you were interested in snakes, not putting down people, you might want to know too... but doesn't seem the case... so , thanks AGAIN for your help, I do realize at this point, as I have stated in previous posts, she is not pregnant by the boa, that was our initial reaction to a snake laying eggs that was caged with a male Boa for 9 years, not Parthenogenesis which I don't remember you contributing to the posts either....

Okay so, as soon as I figure out how to mail this blood, or find a local place (hopefully :) ) I will let you guys know what happens.

If you are like certain members of this forum, let me know and I will not keep you updated. Or if you like, I can update you by email address as some people have asked privately.

Thanks again for the support and understanding of what turns out to be a majority of this site!

[Goopers5]

Sorry, that is my last tangent on someone not being nice, that is not at all why I came to this site, and I apologize to anyone that had to read through anything that didn't have to do with what I am trying to figure out.

[madison.s]

Why send the blood in for DNA testing if you know now that she is not pregnant by the boa? it makes no difference now, if you are not trying to prove that they were the boas then really it does not matter what the blood says. right. by the way i am very much into snakes and lizards,dogs and cats to but i am not going to praise you for trying to breed a dog to a cat either. You did not incubated the eggs right(face it) that was the problem with them so why now put them in anymore pain by taking there blood for no reason. they are nothing special about them except you did not incubated them right.

[Darkest]

Goopers5, I too would like to find out what u find out too. My email is Darkestrealm40@aol.com

[Goopers5]

Darkest: Sure, I will let you know! I'll ad ya to the list :)

LizLady, if it is a parthenogenic snake, that's pretty special to me anyway... We are going to see if they are clones of the mother... THanks for your comments.

[rwg]

Goopers5: I sent you my email by PM (didn't want to publish it). Please keep me updated.

rg

[jmkhets]

even if the snakes were hybrids keep in mind the babies would not be able to reproduce...since ALL hybrids are sterile.A little trick from god to keep us honest

[BoidKeeper]

since ALL hybrids are sterile.
Where do you get your information from? I'd like to see you quote that fact out of book at least.
Trevor

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

What if they are parthogenic, would those offspring be breedable? And if they are all sterile, then how do jungle corn/kings breed?

Lizlady: If you are soooooooo anoyed by this.......why keep replying to it?!?!?! DUH! And how is it special that "she did not incubate them right"? She didnt incubate them, she left them with the mother! And that is not why they are special, they are special for another reason.

C.

-Edit: Basically same question as Boidkeeper. Goopers5, I too, will send you a PM with my email adress in it. Thanks.

[Goopers5]

You're right, I did say that they were python/boa and then I learned about parthenogenesis, as I acknowledged before why don't you go back and read?

What I said was, We took her out, got the eggs that were "dead" (crushed and broken) and cleaned off the ones that were okay. During this process, she freaked, so we put the "good" eggs that didn't crack back in and put her in with them... So I think again, you need to go back and read, I didn't edit anything but whatever

I went back and read what I wrote, it could be taken the wrong way on what we put back in the cage with the Python, sorry it made sense to me, but I could see it being taken the other way too...

Anyways, I have contacted people, and I need to find out all the babies sex (I guess I have to get them probed) if they are all female, then they will take them in for testing to see if they are clones of the mother, so I am on my way!

[madison.s]

my thing is that there has been like 3 different stories and yes i know that stuff happens but you first thought that it was a boa/python, then it was parthenogenesis,and now you think that you have the first "clone" snake. that is my problem. Whatever happened happen but you seen like you are trying to make something(some new breed or something) and thats not right, to make a new morph is one thing and to make a new snake is another. I just think that you should well maybe leave well enough alone and just give them(the babies) good homes and care for the one(s) that you keep. again thats my opinion.

[Goopers5]

If it is parthenogenesis, they would be clones of the mother snake as far as I can tell from what I have read, so it is still the second "story". That is why we want to get it tested since it is such a rare thing, also, in one case a python reproduced 5 consecutive years in this manner, so if that could happen, we want to talk to an expert in this field. THat's all, we really aren't trying to produce anything, the two don't mate (so you can imagine our shock when we did discover the eggs! :)!

That's all, we just want to figure out how this happened, if no one had done studies on it in the past or reported, then we would REALLY be lost at his point because it wouldn't be documented anywhere. I just think if this is one of those rare occasions, I would like to give someone a chance to prove it and maybe find out more about how it happens.

We will not let them harm the snakes, we are more concerned for them than the research, and trust me the baby snakes are being well taken care of and when the time comes we will have suitable homes for them (and at least one for us).

[jjaj02]

I would like to find out what has happened with this also. Please add me to your list and keep me updated. Thanks. Oh and by the way. I dont blame you for wanting to find out exactly what is going on and I think that people here should definatly quit being so rude. Its people like that that ruin informative sites like this. Gee what will they do when no one comes to this site to ask questions because of rude, ignorant people????? They will have nothing to bi*ch about. Oh ya my email address is jjaj02@hotmail.com Thanks again.

[Goopers5]

No problem! Thanks for the note, I will add you to the list! :)

[Samba]

Ok, I didn't bother to read anything past the 3rd page here, but I do believe that parthenogenesis is a possibilty. It has already been documented in garter and rattlesnakes.

As for the Boa/Python breeding I doubt that it what happened. You can't even mate an Asian and African elephant together and produce viable offspring; these animals are very similar and yet they cannot mix. There has been a documented case of an African and Asian elephant mating, and actually progressed to a live birth, however the calf did not live beyond a few hours, and the keepers were never aware of the elephant's pregnancy. Horses and Donkeys can be mated to create Mules, which are sterile...

Then, on the other hand, I believe Gaboon and Rhino vipers have been known to breed and create offspring... I may be wrong...

Many unusual things happen in the animal kingdom, we just can't explain away everything.

At the moment I am inclined to believe (if this story is true) that this is another case a parthenogenesis. Ryan... I hope you can help this person with their quest for understanding, and I trust you will report any of your findings here for those of us interested...


Interesting thread, guys.... sorry I didn't get to all your posts... =)

[Goopers5]

Most of the posts repeated the same thing, you didn't miss much :), I will keep you updated, we are leaning towards the Parthenogenesis theory at this point...I have someone to do the testing, so we will see.

I have posted in a couple forums, so it would be easier if you could give me an email address if you want me to let you know what happens... you can PM it mt if you like, I will not let the addresses show when I send out the email.

Thanks, wish me luck!

[Samba]

You have all my best wishes... parthenogenesis isn't unheard of, but I think it's extremely rare. In any case, I do hope some of your baby snakes make it, they are beautiful, indeed. Good luck, and please update me, my e-mail address is :

OpticVixen@Hotmail.Com -

I look forward to hearing what happens!! =)

[Goopers5]

No problem, thanks!

[lostwithin]

Hi,. I also didn’t make it past the 4th or 5th page before skipping too the end so I apologize for any repetition. First off, I doubt VERY much that the boa and burm crossed.Actually I am quite sure of it due too the turnout of the babies. Not only because successful breeding between such different animals would be almost impossible on its own, but more so because of the completely albino clutch,

Genetically speaking even with a normal burm and an albino burm there you young would not be albino. With a het burm you would in fact have a very SLIGHT possibility that all babies come out albino. Now with a boa even IF it had an albino gene, it would not be the same albino gene as the burm, there fore albino babies would be impossible genetics are quiet reliable. Albino genes are simple recessive, boas alone have 2 known albino strains that are not compatible . If the boa was the father the young could not possibly be albino, Because a boa could not be caring a Burmese albino gene didn’t notice anybody else mentioning this, which amazed me because it was the first thing I noticed.

Now, IF the pictures are true,. And the burm has really had no contact with another albino then I would have too lean towards parthenogenesis, like everyone else, I also have heard of some species that can store sperm or fertile eggs inside the body for years, sort of "pausing " the development, this could technically also be a possibility. And would probably explain deformities.

I Still cant help but think somebody s0omewhere screwed up, or somebody’s lying. but In all fairness nature can do unpredictable things.

Devon

[dave68]

Hey lizlady
This is dave68's wife and I was just curious as to where you would prefer him to bite you? I was also just wondering what exactly does an albion and bizzard leopard gecko look like and what type of species is a breadie???Just noticing your signature, made me wonder!!!!hmmm...

[Goopers5]

We are going to see if it is parthenogenesis, lostwithin, if you would like me to update you, let me know your email. I am going to update several people in this forum and in someothers, so I am just going to send out a blanket email to everyone when we find anything out. No email addresses will show.

THanks!

[dave68]

Goopers5, Dave and I would like to be updated as well, very curious to see how it turns out- (allison78@shaw.ca) Thanks

[Goopers5]

No Problem! Thanks!

[madison.s]

dave68 and dave68's wife really you need your wife to protect you, cry me a river......and he can bite me where ever he think is nice and juicy. As far as my spelling mistakes if that is all you can think of to say when you need help and i can fix my spelling mistakes but you cant fix your husband. I can not believe that you would go and get your wifey poo to talk for you is it suppost to intimate me becuase she say she is your wife,lllooook aattttt meeee sssshhaakee (i can not even type i am so worried). I really think it funny when people on any forum make fun of someone typing it is sooo funny as you can not think of anything eles to say,OH WAIT MAYBE I SHOULD GET MY HUSBAND TO TALK TO YOUR HUSBAND(MY HUSBAND IS BIGGER THEN YOUR HUSBAND)REALLY, BY THE WAY IF YOU DONT KNOW WHO SOMEONE IS YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO TELL THEM TO GROW UP AS YOU DONT KNOW HOW OLD I AM OR FOR THAT MATTER WHO I AM.And if your big man does not want me to say anything to him then dont post a reply to anything that i say,i was not talking to him but he want to post his opinion and thats how it started so maybe you should mind your own as well. thanks for the laugh, smoooothies.

[BoidKeeper]

Stop the fighting or we will have to close the thread. If you two want to keep fighting take it off the site.
Trevor

[madison.s]

BoidKeeper, I have nothing more to say to him or his wife, He should mind his own business, i was not talking to him but i will not say any more to him. I will be a good girl as long as he does not say anything to me.

[CDN-Cresties]

Interesting post, Ill PM you my email for an update. Thanks.

[Goopers5]

I got a couple emaill addresses by PM, I added all of you, thanks! Also, I got an article saying that they don't have to be all female for it to be parthenogenesis, which makes this even more interesting, it was a timber rattlesnake that had babies by parthenogenesis, and the were all male in Boulder Colorado. They plot thickens... I will update as I learn more!

[Matt.B]

brodie_liz@hotmail.com :)

[Goopers5]

Got ya, thanks!

[CamHanna]

Please update me, jehanna@cyg.net

How did that timber have males by parthenogenesis? Do snakes have the x/y sex determination as humans? Do you have a link?

Thank You
Cam Hanna

[Goopers5]

I don't have a link (they pasted it into a forum) but I will email you with it in a little bit if you like.

[CamHanna]

Thank You

I went out and found the original, very interesting.

http://home.pcisys.net/~dlblanc/Parthenogenesis.html

Cam

[Cruciform]

I just tripped over this thread while looking to see what the fuss over hooter was about, and I gotta say it's crazy.

And I don't mean the "miracle" babies, I mean the way people have been so hostile and downright nasty.

Yes, the husbandry methods are definitely improper, incubation method as well, but right off the bad people were attacking instead of offering corrective measures.

Assuming that the boyfriend has had access to the net is just plain stupid. I've been on the net for 10 year, and online for 24 and I can say that at any given time in the past I've been easily able to find people I know that have never looked at a website or read an email. They don't have the interest, inclination, or time.

If he was told 9 years ago when he got the snakes that such and such way was a good way to take care of them, and they've been fine up until now, as a casual pet owner he hasn't done any differently than most.

We are the EXCEPTIONS. We love to look at each others animals and find out about new morphs or species available in the community.

But we're only a very very small percentage of the reptile community. Most people who bring animals home know only what they were told at the pet store.

If this situation upsets you, rather than attack Gooper right off the bat (who had already said they weren't her snakes), offer help on husbandry, care sheet info, etc.

Whether people felt they were a troll or not there are other new people here who will read this and never come back because of the way this thread was handled.

Unless a troll is taking direct action against other users in insults and such, we should treat them no differently than any other user because there are some people who will still learn from the thread.

Gooper, I found your posts very strange and hard to believe, but I hope that you've come away from this with a bit of useful knowledge, even if it's just enough to be able to assist your boyfriend in providing the best living conditions for his animals.

cheers,
Mike

[NewLineReptile]

Let me know as well on any updates newlinereptile@sympatical.ca

Hope you find the answers to all this and good luck with them. :)

It is to bad that some people on here think that they have always been perfect with keeping herps. And have to slam other with not as much knowladge.
For the people trashing and name calling You should all look back to when you first started keeping herps.
I think we have all done things wrong a few times.
And that is why we have good sites like sSnakeSs.com to help us learn and fix our mistakes. Not to trash the new people that have made a mistake wich we all do.

Brandon

[Leviathan]

Let me know what happens. Very interesting. I'm starting my studies next year to be an exotics vet and all this kinda stuff fascinates me. Good luck with the surviving babies. The one with one eye will be just fine if that's the only thing wrong with it.

Alecia

[Goopers5]

No problem, NewLine, I added your address. Thanks for the nice (forgiving he he) words I do really appreciate the help that I have gotten here! Leviathan, if you want, post your email or PM it to me and I will add you to the distribution list for an update. No addresses will show when I send an update out, and wont send billions, just important findings :).

The one with one eye is the most active actually, and he/she's mine, I claimed it as it was coming out of the egg :).

[lostwithin]

Hi , I pm'd you my adress, just wanted too make sure you got it.
Thanks,
Devon

[Goopers5]

lostwithin, I didn't get it, you can try again, or send it to goopers5@yahoo.com

[lostwithin]

Not a problem I can just post it here. My e-mail address is devoncartier@rogers.com, I'm glad I asked too make sure though. Keep me updated.
Thanks,
Devon

[SerpentLust]

Wow, now that was an interesting read. My only thoughts on the matter are best wishes with the babies and keep us updated.

The only thing that kept running through my head was the same thing Invictus brought up. Honest mistake however I do hope that in the future he will not be housing them together as you have now probably learned that they are solitary animals from different ends of the world.

Other than the housing together, I can only wish you luck and hopefully we'll figure out what's going on.

Jenn

[Goopers5]

Lostwithin: No problem, go it!

[Leviathan]

my email is chausette@hotmail.com
Hope all is good with the babies!

[daver676]

Wow. Some of those snakes are in rough shape. Poor things. And I gotta ask. What the hell am I looking at in this pic? Is this one snake THAT severely deformed, or am I just seeing things?

PS. If you (Goopers5) have any problem with me posting this pic, let me know and it will be gone.

[Goopers5]

That one actually was the deformed one that died. The pictures are from when they first came out of the eggs, the snakes now look awesome and healthy, some in the pictures didn't make it... The ones that did are active and beautiful! If you look at the later pictures you can see them starting to turn around.

[hip]

Very Interesting Read (I did read all the way from the first) the links that Katt posted were very informative and could be exactly what happened. Like Ryan said DNA or chromosome testing using the mother as the control would give you the only factual answer on what really happened. You can find my e mail here on the site under my profile. Hopefully you will have some scientific feed back soon.


Hip

[Linds]

Originally posted by Invictus
He would also know that maternal incubation gives the eggs about a 10% survival rate, IF that.

Where are you getting your stats from? There are several breeders that successfully use maternal incubation in their programs, one that comes to mind is Rob Carmichael. He's experienced 100% survival rates allowing the mother to incubate her own eggs.

Originally posted by lizlady
I think the only reason that people(including me) are being well less then nice is because she should never have housed them together and i think the only reason someone would put a python and boa together would be to try and breed them (that is my opinion),

1) There is no reason to be less than nice in the event someone doesn't know something. Bashing them won't solve anything, educating is the only way to help correct the problem. 2) Many people house animals together for other reasons than to breed, such as they they believe they 'enjoy the company', or want the convenience of only having one cage (this is by far the most common reason two animals are housed together).

Originally posted by jmkhets
even if the snakes were hybrids keep in mind the babies would not be able to reproduce...since ALL hybrids are sterile.A little trick from god to keep us honest

All hybrids are most certainly not sterile, or we wouldn't have so many problems with hybrids being reproduced and being (accidentally)dishonestly distibuted. Look at Jungle Corns (corn/king), Argentine/Bci, Retic/Burm, etc., they can all reproduce perfectly fine.

[hip]

dave68 and dave68's wife really you need your wife to protect you, cry me a river......and he can bite me where ever he think is nice and juicy. As far as my spelling mistakes if that is all you can think of to say when you need help and i can fix my spelling mistakes but you cant fix your husband. I can not believe that you would go and get your wifey poo to talk for you is it suppost to intimate me becuase she say she is your wife,lllooook aattttt meeee sssshhaakee (i can not even type i am so worried). I really think it funny when people on any forum make fun of someone typing it is sooo funny as you can not think of anything eles to say,OH WAIT MAYBE I SHOULD GET MY HUSBAND TO TALK TO YOUR HUSBAND(MY HUSBAND IS BIGGER THEN YOUR HUSBAND)REALLY, BY THE WAY IF YOU DONT KNOW WHO SOMEONE IS YOU MIGHT NOT WANT TO TELL THEM TO GROW UP AS YOU DONT KNOW HOW OLD I AM OR FOR THAT MATTER WHO I AM.And if your big man does not want me to say anything to him then dont post a reply to anything that i say,i was not talking to him but he want to post his opinion and thats how it started so maybe you should mind your own as well. thanks for the laugh, smoooothies.

Proves to me what some people have been telling me in my absence over the last little while. A sad state of affairs indeed when this kind of stuff happens. Too bad the bite me post was deleted I would have used it to better myself in the journey of life. You are 31 years old. Who you are does not matter as we all get to post here under assumed names and that is the beauty of some forums here on the internet. We can be professional respected people during the day at work and “crazy herpers" in our off time. Dave 68 is an awesome member and does not need defending from me his presence here is a bonus to all of us, and in the event of his loss would diminish us all and this forum. Honestly lizlady this post was not called for and reflects on all of us badly as a whole, this community is never thought of as single persons by the masses but a group and in that retrospect the words of one effect us all to the same extent.



Hip

[varanus69]

I have heard of one female burm that was housed at a zoo with out a male in the states that layed viable eggs that did hatch . I can not remember the name for birth with out a father but that was the case there and POSSIBLY the case here.It was printed in a previous issue of reptiles magazine under the "herp news" article, if anyone wants to go looking for it.I would but i sold all my magazines.

[Goopers5]

Originally posted by varanus69
It was printed in a previous issue of reptiles magazine under the "herp news" article, if anyone wants to go looking for it.I would but i sold all my magazines.


Do you know when the article was? (We have STACKS of reptile magazine all over the house, I can look if I know about when it was published... THANKS!)

[sincity]

So someone comes on this site looking for help and information and 11 pages (95% is flack) is what they get?
Man, remind me never to ask a question on this site ever again.
Very professional people! Well run site. Nice people....

[lostwithin]

Hey, Just wanted too point out that it isn’t 11 pages of "flack" actually very little of it is (that’s still more then there should be), many seemed very interested in the topic.
Although recently I have noticed allot of threads going down hill. From people who rather take shots and starting meaningless fights then give answers and ask questions. I think who are not interested in the topic should not participate. I can almost grantee your post will be just as "non-productive" though. Comments like yours will only bring the people who aren’t interested in the topic back just too argue that you unfairly said they were giving "flack" for no reason. You gave no comment of info on the topic at hand, just basically gave the part that should be ignored a chance too resurface. You may have done it out of good intentions too make those who are starting these argument look bad, but it just adds fuel too the fire.

Just my 2 cents people. I still think it’s a great site, even with the increase of people who enjoy keeping the mod’s on there toes. Lol.

Devon

[sincity]

I didn't post an opinion because ALLOT of good advice was given.

However, this is obviously someone new at this, or young, and A TON of people jumped down his throat.

I just felt bad for the kid.

I'm not gonna argue about this cause I dont care, I simply feel the person who started the thread deserves a medal for putting up with all the crap he took in search of help.

And for the ones who offered good honest advice, this is not directed at you one bit.

Good luck fella, I hope your little snake makes it.

[Linds]

Originally posted by sincity
However, this is obviously someone new at this, or young, and A TON of people jumped down his throat....

...I'm not gonna argue about this cause I dont care, I simply feel the person who started the thread deserves a medal for putting up with all the crap he took in search of help.


Hanging around on the forums enough, you get to see that sometimes people may 'pose' in this manner, just trolling the forums, posting stuff to get a rise out of people. This isn't the case here, but I'm sure that's why so many people jumped on her. It really is quite unfortunate it had to happen that way, and I do agree, kudos to Goopers5 for sticking through all the mudslinging.

[lostwithin]

I would have too agree , its a shame how some people respond, I'm still waiting for that update. I'd really like too know how it turns out.

Devon

[Ptindy]

Hey Goopers! I just read this whole forum and I am interested in the ending of this story. Let me know please michaelpytyck@hotmail.com
I'm sorry for some of the bashing at the beginning of this forum. People assume too much sometimes. My first snake shed I thought the thing ate it because his eyes were done being cloudy and i couldn't find any skin. Nowhere in any caresheets did it say they would go back to normal before the shed. It didn't take them long to figure out the snake didn't eat the shed. I wish people replying in this forum would have back tracked through your exprience/claim, instead of assuming you were 100 percent sure that's what it was. I'm confused reading this post I wrote myself so don't worry if you didn't get it. Just add me to that list please haha

[Goopers5]

We are waiting to get blood taken and then we have to send it out. I will update you, promise, but it is all taking a little longer than we orignally planned... I will let you know!

THanks for the compliment of sticking it out, I have a lot of patience :) and I did learn a lot from the people who did give advice :).

I will add you to the list!

[Dom]

I am very interested in the result .. best of luck

dominicjules@hotmail.com

Tx

[Goopers5]

No problem! Added ya to the list

[AnniesMom]

My my, it must have been a while since I've been on this site. Last time I posted with any regularity, people were a little more... relaxed? There is a lot of great support and information in this post, but I've spent over an hour sorting through the insults and garbage to get to it.

Goopers5: I hope you don't let some of the more rabid members scare you off. This is an awesome site and I bet that you have already learned more in a few weeks than most learn in years. If you are not careful, you might just get to be ed-u-ma-cated like the rest of us!:)

I would like to know what happens in the future with this babies. I will PM you my email addy. Best of luck.

Tracy

[Goopers5]

Got ya in my list, thanks!

[timminsreptiles]

WOW.....After reading this whole thread,nowiknow not to come here when i come across something i dont know.....Although i dont think these babies are a result of crossing the boa w/ the python, i think these people should be helped rather than beeing bashed and made out to look stupid.........Isnt help what this place is for??

[BoidKeeper]

There are being helped now that they have proven that they are not a troll. No doubt some of us were less than inviting but I think that you see the thread turn its self around. Please don't let a few bad apples spoil you impression of the whole site or its members. There are a lot of great members here that enjoy trying to help people. Some people just need to be reminded once in a while that if you can't say anything nice you shouldn't say anything at all.
I for one asked them to prove me wrong and so far they are doing a good job!
Cheers,
Trevor

[crazyboy]

goopers5: i would also be interested in the results click the tab up on the right hand corner of my post for the email. thanks.

[timminsreptiles]

Goopers......Just wondering how things are going with your test.....i would also be very interested in the results.....:)

[Goopers5]

I will keep you updated! We have hit a snag, so it might be a little while, but I promise to let you know!

[Nicki]

Hi Gooper,

I've finally made it thru the whole thread, and just wondered if you could add my email address to your list as well (it's in my signature). I'm really curious to see what happens. How are the babies doing? Do you have any new pics of them?

Nicki

[concept3]

well i just spent a good hour reading all 12 pages. My email is concept_03@hotmail.com I would also love to know what really happened. Oh and 1 more thing lizlady your posts made me sick,

[TheRedDragon]

That is a rather unusual cross. I'm quite against crossing different species, but, I'm quite interested in hearing about the result. I'm also curious in seeing some updated pics of the babies.

[wimplatenkamp]

I have something to tell!!!!

A giant snake in a Dutch zoo has achieved two world-firsts, and it's all down to her remarkable ability to reproduce through so-called ‘virgin birth'. It's the first time that parthenogenesis has been seen in the great snakes (pythons and boas) and it's the only known case of exact clones being produced naturally in any snake species. Till now!!!!

Lying coiled up in a shiny, mottled heap against the vivarium window, a four-metre long, nameless Burmese Python (Python molurus bivittatus, also known as a Dark Tiger Python) at Artis Zoo in Amsterdam is going about her normal routine, unaware of the excitement she has been causing in the scientific world of reproductive biology.

Every year for the past six years she has been laying her annual clutch of leathery eggs, just like most other captive female snakes. And, as with all the animals kept in the reptile house at Artis, every year her eggs have been removed and examined by staff, because they can reveal a lot about the condition of the females.

But this specific snake proved to be very special, as the Curator of Reptiles, Fish and Invertebrates, Eugène Bruins, reveals: "She always lays some eggs that are nicely big and white, about 9cm long, but about 60% are much smaller and more yellow. These are always infertile, but we did find in some of the [big] eggs some embryos."

Storage story
To begin with, Bruins and his colleagues assumed that the python must have mated with a male during the first two years of her life, before she arrived at Artis Zoo. If this had happened, she could have been using sperm stored in her body over a number of years to produce fertilised eggs – a well-known phenomenon in several species of reptiles including some snakes. But after five years had passed and viable embryos were still being found in her eggs, Bruins started to wonder whether he had a world record for the longest known sperm-storage, or whether something else was going on.

Bruins called in the help of his friend, Tom Groot, then a Masters degree biology student at the University of Amsterdam, who did genetic fingerprinting on both the snake and her embryos. "Fingerprinting uses a random set of characters from the entire genome," he explains. "If a father was involved you'd expect to find characters in the embryos that don't relate to the mother. We didn't find that, so the first thing to conclude was that there couldn't be any sperm-storage."

The alternative explanation was that the embryos had resulted from parthenogenesis, or so-called ‘virgin birth', where eggs develop into new individuals although they are unfertilised by a male. "Virgin birth is quite common in some lizards and is known in a few snake species," says Bruins, "But it was never yet known in the family of pythons or boas, so that was a world first already. But even more special was that all other snake species reproducing this way produce only males and our embryos were all females."

Identical copies
The sex of the offspring was confirmed by anatomy specialists at the University of Utrecht in the Netherlands and, in fact, further analysis of their genetic material showed that they were all exact clones of the mother – a phenomenon never before seen in snakes at all. "It's really exciting to see it and know it is possible," enthuses Tom Groot, who is now studying parthenogenesis in mites for his PhD. "We don't know if it can happen in these pythons in the wild. But with this mechanism a single female would be able to start an entirely new population which makes it, in the evolutionary sense, very interesting."

Hatching a name
Now that Artis Zoo is aware of the very special embryos appearing in its reptile house every year, there are plans now to try incubating this snake's eggs for the very first time. Some of the offspring may be given away to other zoos or to researchers specialising in parthenogenesis in snakes, but some would be kept in Amsterdam. Eugène Bruins: "We want to see if they're as healthy as the mother and whether they have the same spots in the same place! And in four years time we want to see if they can reproduce parthenogenetically as well." As for the mother snake herself – according to Bruins she may finally be given a name: "Some people including myself have suggested Maria, which is perhaps not surprising!"

[vincenzo]

i would also like to know what the results of the tests are so would you add me to your list goopers5
vince68@mts.net
thanks