Amazed at what I saw at the pet store today....

[Roadracer]

So I stopped in at ********** today just to see what they had for chameleons. They had a nice looking Carpet Chameleon, a baby Panther, both housed in very small aquariums which made me kind of upset..... and then I noticed something that made me really angry.

They have a 20 gallon aquarium that has a screen top without any heat lamp housing 4 Veileds in it (2 males and 2 females), all about 6 months old or so. They were all completely black in color, most likely from a combination of stress and being cold. They were all climbing on the screen top and clawing at each other. This made me quite sick to see them being treated this way and the 16 year old punk working there was completely clueless about caring for chameleons.

Anyway, I'm thinking this has got to be animal cruelty if I've ever seen it, although I don't know what I can do about it. Who do you report pet stores like this to? Is there anything I can do about it besides buying them?, which isn't in my budget and they're most likely going to die soon anyway. Any comments you all have would be appreciated.

(edited to remove store name.
~ DragnDrop)

[CanadianJackson]

I'd definitly at the very least try to tell someone in charge there how to house them properly. Or they're gonna gonna end up with some very unhealthy and possibly dead chams, at that age I'd be worried about them possibly breeding too.

[dank7oo]

I would take the pet shops name out of this thread to prevent any problems that the site might have with a lawsuit.

Jason

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

You shouldn't buy them anyways, as if you do this it just encourages the store to buy more to sell. Talk to someone there, as animal authorities probably wont do much about it.

C.

[Kimo]

unfortunately most petstores are able to get back in new stock free of charge when some of their animals die...this is the way most pet stores conduct buisness, so it's unlikely these problems...will ever change

Kimo

[panther_dude]

Well I think these problemes can change. Its about going to the top and toalking to the government, course you wont get very far with a liberal gov. But it would be worth the try if we got enough people together.
There is no reason why reptiles shouldnt be kept in the same manor as dogs an cats. In the way that most pet stores will not sell a dog or cat that is severly under weight or has broken limbs, even half corroded faces, as ive seen on some reptiles at pet shops.
I dont know it just tottally baffles me how someone owning or working in a pet shop. Who you think would have a love for animals. how can they just sit there and watch them slowly die, it doesnt take a brain surgen to figure out somethings wrong with them. And what is even worse Ive offered to volunteer at places for a week or so, and they wont have anything to do with it.

I dont know we need something like a Private national reptile organisation. Getting the government involved in my minds wont help very much. But I dont know, just something needs to be done in canada. Im not sure how it is in the states.

We at least have to try.

[J-Man]

Oh, it's bad in the states. I've seen my fair share of that crap.

[DragnDrop]

Originally posted by panther_dude
Getting the government involved in my minds wont help very much.

The government would just ban reptiles outright. Simple solution, cheap, effective, no problem, done in no time.

The best way is education. Teach/tell/show the store owner/manager that with proper care the more animals will survive, happier customers mean more profit.

The other way is not buying anything from those disaster stores. People would not consider going to a filthy greasy spoon restaurant for fear of getting food poisoning, so before long the place goes belly up. Yet they don't worry about buying from pet stores where half the animals are dead, dying or sick, cages are filthy and the whole place is due to be condemmed for health reasons. It doesn't make sense to me. Don't buy anything at all there, and they're bound to clean up their act or close down.

[h0nk]

I'm in Australia, and we can't buy reptiles in pet stores (NSW anyway). You must get a reptile keepers' license, and you can only buy reptiles off private breeders, or some commercial breeders operating in other states. We have to keep a logbook which must be returned to the National Parks and Wildlife association (same place you get the license from). They have the right to come inspect reptile keepers enclosures at any time without notice. This system (although alot harder and more time consuming than just buying from a pet store) ensures that the reptiles are treated properly. Also when you buy a reptile you know that it has been cared for and looked after properly. I'm not sure if this system is around anywhere else? Do you even need a license in other counties?

[panther_dude]

Ya you see the probleme here in canada is we dont have many wild native reptiles. Unlike autralia which is covered with herps. I think this helps people to think of them more as an animal rather then just a disscusting reptile.
I have already sudjested that we liscence breeders and shops but people on here have just said Im wasting my time.
If it can be done in australia, Im darn sure it can be done here. The only probleme is people dont want to give up their time to help our herps.
Many people complain and complain but when it comes down to actually doing something about it, they just leave it to others. Well if everyone leaves it for others to do no one will do it.

It all has to start right here in this forum. We are all regulars and know eachother rather well. Why can we not do this. The probleme is some people come on here and say no it cannot be done weve tried it will never work.
Well im sorry I wont give up I will never just sit on the side lines and let these animals die a slow agganising death. We need to ignore the nagative input people have on this discussion. And get off our butts and do it.

I will be writing a report on pet shops in winnipeg and I please ask you all from different cities in Canada and the US to do the same. After our reports are made we need to get out there and start patitions. Get everyone who is anyone to sign after reading your report. And maybe even add a story or two of theyre own.

I personally will be going to the mayor of winnipeg, and will constantly be confronting him on this issue untill something is done. First im going with my camera and taking pictures of every single reptile in winnipeg and theyre setups. I will then show these pics to the mayor. Hopefully something goes on from there.I am also palnning on writing a leangthy article in the free press and sun. Got to love the freedom of the press, and freedom of speach.


Again people I really need all your help. And if you have added to this thread I will be expecting you to do so. Other wise your just like the people I mentioned before. Love to complain but never want to actually do anything about it.

please please help

thanks guys
mind the spelling lol

wade shaw

[dank7oo]

Amazed at what I saw at the pet store today....

Not so amazing or unusal.

Jason

[Chris_Anderson]

Originally posted by panther_dude
Ya you see the probleme here in canada is we dont have many wild native reptiles. Unlike autralia which is covered with herps. I think this helps people to think of them more as an animal rather then just a disscusting reptile.
I have already sudjested that we liscence breeders and shops but people on here have just said Im wasting my time.
If it can be done in australia, Im darn sure it can be done here. The only probleme is people dont want to give up their time to help our herps.
Many people complain and complain but when it comes down to actually doing something about it, they just leave it to others. Well if everyone leaves it for others to do no one will do it.

It all has to start right here in this forum. We are all regulars and know eachother rather well. Why can we not do this. The probleme is some people come on here and say no it cannot be done weve tried it will never work.
Well im sorry I wont give up I will never just sit on the side lines and let these animals die a slow agganising death. We need to ignore the nagative input people have on this discussion. And get off our butts and do it.

I will be writing a report on pet shops in winnipeg and I please ask you all from different cities in Canada and the US to do the same. After our reports are made we need to get out there and start patitions. Get everyone who is anyone to sign after reading your report. And maybe even add a story or two of theyre own.

I personally will be going to the mayor of winnipeg, and will constantly be confronting him on this issue untill something is done. First im going with my camera and taking pictures of every single reptile in winnipeg and theyre setups. I will then show these pics to the mayor. Hopefully something goes on from there.I am also palnning on writing a leangthy article in the free press and sun. Got to love the freedom of the press, and freedom of speach.


Again people I really need all your help. And if you have added to this thread I will be expecting you to do so. Other wise your just like the people I mentioned before. Love to complain but never want to actually do anything about it.

please please help

thanks guys
mind the spelling lol

wade shaw

Wade,

You really have to look at the examples of previous efforts that have been made. This effort has been tried in the US and it has had very negative effects for us. The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) has been trying to ban the keeping of reptiles in the US. Right now, I've been helping try to fight legislation in New York that would ban keeping all boids and monitors. We've made some progress by getting them to at least name the species in their ban, not just ban them all outright but we're still being faced with almost certain loss of legality of keeping many of these species. When we go to the government and complain about the people who are not taking care of the animals or practicing safe husbandry, they put into effect legislation that has a negative impact on those of us who are doing what we should be. It seldomly effects those who we feel should be targeted. The best way to fix these problems is through education. Dragndrop's post was right on. I've been trying to promote systems of breeding management that forces breeders to be upfront about their practices and gives buyers the ability to make more educated decissions but it is a slow process that takes time. Its nice to see you being passionate but look at the big picture. PIJAC (www.pijac.org) had be formed in the US to try to combat efforts by organizations like the HSUS to ban this trade outright. Education is our best method at the moment IMO.

Chris

[panther_dude]

lol ya well you say education. But i dont beleave that someone who has owned a pet shop for 40 years wants to be told how to keep animals by some "younge punk" while they have had success with what they are doing. Oh they might limit some of the species able to be brought in. First of all when has that ever stopped anyone? Secondly maybe its for the better that some of these animals that are growing increasingly rare in the wild are left alone. I highly doubt they can bann all reptiles being kept. The industry is way to huge. Plus your talking about the US govermnemt not the most helpfull people in the world unless it has something to do with them. You need to get at the polotions that keep reptiles or have children or people they know that keep them. Maybe someone who is has more direct contact with these animals can be a little more usefull. I really dont know.

There are too many people that own herps. I find it really hard to beleave that the government will make them all kill theyre animals and stop breeding them. Just way way too many.

Now this is what im talking about for negativity. You say you tried it once and it didnt work. Well ill keep trying untill it does. Maybe we wont go to the government, and need to look else where. I have no idea, all I know is it has to stop.


What does everyone else think. DO you guys think we should just stand aside and let these animals, pretty much get tortured, and killed? Left to sit in there small tank with broken limbs open wounds and extremely bad enclosure conditions.
If you guys just sit there and let it happen, im my miind your no better then the pet shop owners. SOmething has to be done.
I will not tolerate any more negative comments, they are tottally discusting. Your just telling me you really dont care. If you did then it wouldnt matter if they banned the import of reptiles. At least they are left to have theyre naturall lives in the wild, to be left at peace.
If they did ban the improts I think we have enough here to breed and keep the populations going for at least a couple of decades.

So please as ive already said instead of being negative and saying we tried that its useless. Well no its not useless we just need to take a different appraoch to it. There is more then one way to skin a cat. (not to say that skinning cats is right, its tottally wrong)
peace out

wade shaw

P.s Just had anouther thought. WHat if we did get the government to create a bann. Not on the importation of herps but a ban on pet shops to sell herps. Leave it to the breeders who know what they are doing. This could be a rather simple solution and I dont think would cost the government too much to enforce the ban. Not like after the ban is set in, a pet shop can get some iguanas shipped in with his next batch of rabbits. It might take time but maybe this would be a better aproach.

And dont think im going to come up with the solution by myself. I really need your guys' POSSITIVE input on this.

(edited
~ DragnDrop)

[dank7oo]

There was nothing wrong with Chris' post. He was making conversation.

Jason

[panther_dude]

wow ok buddy were having grown up talk right now.
please leave the childish comments aside.
There is no need to copy and post my thread. Especially when mine was pretty much right above his. Again its just a waste of space, and I don't know what he is trying to proove by doing it.

It was my whole post for crying out loud. I can see maybe a sentence of two. But the whole thing come on now.

wade

p.s Yes I am sensitive when it comes to going by pet shops and seeing herps slowly die. And to watch the store owners do nothing about it. Even when the solution to the probleme is so simple.
Even when I politely tell a store owner that there is a better way to keep a reptile, which is more beneficial to the reptile and the store owner. They say ya ok thats cool ( well something like that) but have they done anything a week later when I return!?


peace

[Kevin McRae]

Wade:

Better make sure you don't get reptiles banned in the city(or in the province)or a few people are going to be quite angry.

Winnipeg pet shops aren't bad for there reptiles................maybe one or two but not many.

[Chris_Anderson]

Originally posted by panther_dude
Now this is what im talking about for negativity. You say you tried it once and it didnt work. Well ill keep trying untill it does. Maybe we wont go to the government, and need to look else where. I have no idea, all I know is it has to stop.

Also chris you always seem to come on here and put me down in some way or anouther. You never answered any questions I derected to you in the forums. whats up with that?
Oh yes we can all read. Re-posting my post in yours is really not nessicary all it does is take up room. I beleave you have already been warned about this numerouse times.

Wade,

I never said I had given up or that i stopped trying. I said I didn't think the government was the way to go. As I said, I've been working on creating methods for higher standards in the chameleon industry and am still working on them. I believe my exact words were that it was "a slow process" and education is as well. May I remind you that I'm trying to educate the chameleon community by my efforts in the Chameleons! E-Zine and I've helped create a method by which breeders can more effectively manage their bloodlines and buyers can look into breeders in the CCBTD. While I'm trying to change the chameleon community, I'm also trying to help protect it from harmful legislation. If you don't think they could ban the entire trade, you have another thing comming, they can and would have it people didn't do what they needed to stop it. I don't want to see these animals in pet stores suffering, thats why I refuse to purchase animals, supplies or food from them. I mail order all my stuff from places I know take care of their stuff. If we all did that, it'd make a nice impact...

As far as my not answering your questions in the forum. I've been driving cross country. I've been away for over a week. My computer died a few days before I left, etc. My apologies for not dropping everything for you, get over it. I saw this as a post I should comment on as I've been working to change the chameleon community. I copy your posts because you have shown in the past that you will alter your original post I respond to and by quoting it, that makes it difficult to do. I can also respond to particular parts of your posts.

Chris

[DragnDrop]

Originally posted by panther_dude
P.s Just had anouther thought. WHat if we did get the government to create a bann. Not on the importation of herps but a ban on pet shops to sell herps. Leave it to the breeders who know what they are doing. This could be a rather simple solution and I dont think would cost the government too much to enforce the ban. Not like after the ban is set in, a pet shop can get some iguanas shipped in with his next batch of rabbits. It might take time but maybe this would be a better aproach.

Reptiles aren't high on the list of priorities to deal with when you're talking governments. If there's too much hassle about them, and since they're a minor detail as far as quality of life goes where the residents of the nation are concerned, the best way to deal with it is eliminate the problem entirely. That means an outright ban. No need to hire staff to enforce the particular parts of the ban, making sure no store sells them. They don't have to worry about inspecting breeder setups, no extra work, no drain on tax dollars. If you get the government involved, we'll have a problem like Norway (I think it's Norway?) where reptiles are illegal and keeping them means jail time.

If you go around checking up on petshops as you mentioned earlier, you'll only be doing the preliminary leg work for PETA and similar organizations. They'll take your hard work and get our pets banned.

Stick with educating the store owners, employers and possible customers, or avoid the substandard stores completely.

Four years ago my town was considering a ban on reptiles among other pets. It was a royal pain to fight city hall. In the end they banned ownership of WC, certain species, and added a few other stipulations. If you go to the higher levels of government, you're just opening a can of worms.

Your intentions are good, the animals would be proud of your plans. However, in the long run, you'll just be making a bigger mess than we already have.

[panther_dude]

Well i dont know what to say..Seems to me like you guys care more about taking them from the wild and keeping them as pets then you do about the animals. If they have to ban the improtation of all reptiles so be it. Apperantly there are lots of breeders out there, we can all just get our herps from them.



I may be blowing this way out of proportion but this is how I feel.
When dogs and cats arent beening cept properly people cry cry and cry and the government or a government organization goes in and shuts down the operation. Why can this not be done with herps? Oh ya money. All anyone ever cares about is money, and themselves. Well if we complain to the government they will bann the reptiles indusrty maybe thats what has to happen, you got to quite being so selfish. Oh but I wont be able to keep a chameleon anymore that would be better off left alone in the wild. Big freaking deal, all you care about is your self if you have that attitude. And no matter what you say to try and fight it it's true. Being really selfish.


(edited
~ DragnDrop)

[Matt.B]

Hey paul why dont you be the first one to let your chams go and for every one that you spend the money to ship to its "home" I will send one of mine to its home. K? What do you think will happen. especially with leos having been in the reptile trade for 20+years they would never survive in the wild. and with not getting any more wild caught and breeding only what we have what will happen after lets say 2 years? without any import small amounts of inbreeding. 5 years breeding cousins and half brothers and sisters 7 years total inbreeding of brothers sisters and parents. Wen will end up with some very colourfull crawling blobs. I for one do not want that to happen.
Matt

[dank7oo]

Who is Paul ... ?

Jason

[Matt.B]

Panther Dude

[panther_dude]

lol my name is wade. Oh yes I totally understand. Im not saying release our captive animals in the wild that would just be stupid. And what do you think is going to happen if we keep going like we are now. After exporting so many animals yearly from the wild eventually the wild stocks will run really low and we wont be able to export them anymore and the species will be extinct.
Now your saying in breeding and stuff will have to go on. Well sorry to break it to you buddy but most of those morphs out there are a result of in breeding. YEs some are done through trait breeding. But why spend all that time and money when inbreeding is so quick and easy. Even the hybridization of panthers will have a dramatic effect. There is a very slight chance that a hybred panther will ba able to produce healthy younge for two or more generations if any at all. If we keep going like this I predict the end of the herp trade in 10 to 20 years.
But maybe if we bann imports for a decade or so the wild populations can be brought back up to a higher population, and it wont hurt there chances in the wild to come back latter and start exporting them again. Do you know how many of these animals that they originally catch in the wild, make it safely to a pet shop. My geusse is maybe 50 %, the rest die in shipping. Now that seems to work really well doesnt it. Not.
Now in the JUne 2004 issue of Reptiles there is an article on Mount Meru Jackson's Chameleons ( Chamaeleo jacksonii merumontana) by Justyn Miller. Id like to take a bit of the article from page 58 to show you how these herps are handle prior to being exproted.
It starts as follows:
One of the biggest killers of wild_caught chameleons is the inappropriate care they receive prior to export. The following procedure is common for collecting this species in Tanzania. First, locals catch the chameleons primarily during the night witht eh use of torch. The chameleons are easily spotted with their pale, submissive colouration whileresting. Collectors then combine their catches into containers (wire cages, woven baskets, ect.), and the chameleons are kept this way untill a jobber comes.
It might be a week or a month before a jobber makes his rounds within the area. Durring this time a good percentage of the chameleons perish. Next, jobbers take the chameleons to a city called Dar es Salaam, located several hundred miles away. Their wildlife exporters gather to purchase these chameleons, as well as many other species. Exporters commonly pay about $6 U.S. for a chameleon.
Chameleons are then shipped to reptile markets over seas. It may be weeks before the exporter can obtain the proper permits to ship the animals to the importer in the receiveing country. During this long process, very few of the chameleons are offered adequate food or water. This can cause sever dehydration and emaciation. Overcrowding and exposure to poor conditions further stess the majority of the chameleons. This can lead to irreversible health conditions despite the best possiblecare available post export/import.

Well there you have it and this in only for one species. We need to bann the importation of herps in north america. All these animals that die just so we can get one or two in our cages at home that actually survive. Its just insane. Bann the imports but not completely, we should have a society of top commercial breeders, who can go out and collect wild caught by hand them selves. Inssurring that the herps get all the proper care possible durring exportation. But we really have to leave the wild herps alone to repopulate the wild stocks if it is even still possible. we might have already ruined that chance with all the exporting we are doing yearly.
Again we have to stop thinking about ourselves and start thinking aobut what would be best for the animals. What we are doing now is deffinatly not the answer.

peace

wade shaw

[Matt.B]

Thats not a very good example. If the jackson chameleons were taken from the island of hawii(sp) completely that would be great for the environment so the export is a good thing. dont forget they are not native to Hawii(sp)
matt

[panther_dude]

ummmm ok there buddy. Im talking about a sub species for one thing that lives in tanzania. Not hawaii. Ive never heard of them being a probleme in hawaii anyways. Maybe you can point me out to the article that mentions this. lol you crack me up.
Im trying to have a seriouse conversation here about helping the reptiles, and all that you can do is try and find ways to denouce me!?
What's up with that?!
If you dont have any POSSITIVE feedback why post. I just cannot beleave how you people are reacting to this.

Also my point about breeders inbreeding animals for desirded traits is very valid. It is severly detrimental to there health.

I am really tired of repeating myself so I will no longer discuss this with anyof you if you have some possitve input I fully welcome a private message. Ill start a private organisation on my own if I really have to. If any of you want on board holla!!

peace

Wade Shaw

[Chris_Anderson]

Well i dont know what to say..Seems to me like you guys care more about taking them from the wild and keeping them as pets then you do about the animals.

Hardly the case IMO. I work very hard to provide the absolute best for my animals, to provide the best and most current information available to the general public at no cost to them through the Chameleons! E-Zine, to provide the means for better, more successful captive breeding efforts through my involvement with the Captive Chameleon Bloodline Tracking Database, work with people like the Mease's of the Chamaeleo Research Group on alternative sources to WC chameleons with their F1 import efforts (Click here for article on this (http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2003/may2003/farming/farming.html) ), and am currently working on rebuilding my old Chameleon Care and Information Center (CCIC) which has been down now for over a year. Hardly seems like I do not care about these animals IMO...

If they have to ban the improtation of all reptiles so be it.

This should, IMO, be the last resort. Many of us in the US have been working to improve the trade but its a slow process. We don't want to see the trade end, we want to be able to continue our work with reptiles and be able to say that every effort has been made to improve the practices of the industry. Education is crutial in this process. Approaching others with the intent to help them is better than approaching them in disgust with the goal of making them feel stupid. My impression of you and your stand is that your aproaches to these store keepers is often given with an impression of you feeling superior to them. This doesn't work, they don't want to deal with what they see as a smart a** kid. Education has many levels and devoting yourself to this is more effective in the long run than trying to go for the imediate gradification you are looking for.

Apperantly there are lots of breeders out there, we can all just get our herps from them.

I think you'd be suprised how few there are out there breeding many of these species with any significant consistency. This is why it is important to work with those who are and try to help facilitate communication of successful efforts to help others working with them. At the same time, its important to increase the quality of imports by being willing to not buy from people who support those who import animals and poor condition and to then pay extra for animals from people who take the extra effort to care for their animals.

Oh but I wont be able to keep a chameleon anymore that would be better off left alone in the wild. Big freaking deal, all you care about is your self if you have that attitude. And no matter what you say to try and fight it it's true. Being really selfish.

Wade, where do you think your animals originally came from. Somewhere down the line, animals were taken from the wild for you to have your animals now. You want to start a breeding facility with a lot of animals. Where do you think they will come from? I'd be interested to see if you'd be willing to be the first to give up your passion, that means not supporting the reptile industry at all.

After exporting so many animals yearly from the wild eventually the wild stocks will run really low and we wont be able to export them anymore and the species will be extinct.

What evidence do you have for your claims? FYI, there have been studies on the status of chameleons in the wild that refute what you are saying to some extent. While unmanaged trade will definately result in this, the trade is not unmanaged. CITES imposes quotas of how many animals of each species may be exported annually. This numbers are based on studies on the impact of the trade on wild populations. Don't make statements that you don't know enough about the situation to back up. I can provide you field studies on population structures once my computer is fixed and I can access my bookmarks again.

most of those morphs out there are a result of in breeding.

Not really in chameleons. With F. pardalis, they are geographic variations that have evolved naturally over time. Same with C. parsonii and F. oustaleti. Very little has been done with morphs in chameleons.

Even the hybridization of panthers will have a dramatic effect.

True, hense the efforts we are taking to prevent this by providing the Captive Chameleon Bloodline Tracking Database.

There is a very slight chance that a hybred panther will ba able to produce healthy younge for two or more generations if any at all.

Do you have any data to support this? There have been studies showing a decreased reproductive fittness of hybrid localities but I don't know of studies that support your claim.

But maybe if we bann imports for a decade or so the wild populations can be brought back up to a higher population, and it wont hurt there chances in the wild to come back latter and start exporting them again.

When something like that is put into effect, it generally isn't easy to have it be on a time limit like that and to bring it back all of a sudden. Just doesn't work like that. Again, what populations are you talking about that are in such terrible condition and what source are you using to back these claims?

My geusse is maybe

OK, glad we established where your facts are coming from. :D

an article on Mount Meru Jackson's Chameleons ( Chamaeleo jacksonii merumontana) by Justyn Miller

Yes this is true, this is why we should try to support those who make the extra effort to provide high quality animals. Again, take a look at that article on F1 imports.

Bann the imports but not completely, we should have a society of top commercial breeders, who can go out and collect wild caught by hand them selves.

This is what we are talking about. You're thinking is nice but its not fesable in reality. Its just too complicated to enforce like that. Its just easier to ban it outright and through proper efforts and education given a little time, we can improve the trade without resorting to this.

But we really have to leave the wild herps alone to repopulate the wild stocks if it is even still possible. we might have already ruined that chance with all the exporting we are doing yearly.

Any data to show us on this?

Maybe you can point me out to the article that mentions this. lol you crack me up.

Thats the pot calling the kettle black if you ask me. Can you provide us with any articles that back up your claims? FYI, the C. jacksonii are an introduced species to Hawaii and the agricultural departments would like to get rid of them to help return the islands to a more natural form. Whether or not they are a pest is debated.

Ill start a private organisation on my own if I really have to.

And what exactly would the goals of your one man private organisation be?

Chris

[bear24]

Well Iam glad to see that we all agree on something. Chameleons should be kept in the best possible care a person can provide. If you cannot provide that care do not get a chameleon. Also some pet stores really neglect thier charges and none of us like to see that. The only way to solve this problem is through education and that takes time and people working together. Not you made me feel bad because I can't fix the problem over night. What about fish I like them and they die by the hundreds even thousands everyday because of bad husbandry. Only time, patience, and education will change that. If you still cannot get over the atrocities comitted by this demonic store..........Break in steal the Chams and laugh everyday you are watching your handywork on the news(I claim no responsibilty for actions taken from this post). Would do more good than your one man animal activist group. I have more to say but Iam a gentleman.

[Brock]

I once heard of a small group of animal activists proposing the ban of reptiles because their keepers fed them crickets, and to feed a living creature to another is atrocious; you should join this small group because some of your claims are just as ridiculous. I admire your passion to have something done, but there is a line that you've obviously crossed somewhere. First of all, more than half of us wouldn't be here if it weren't for reptiles in pet stores. Some of our first reptiles were anoles or grass lizards or what have you, I remember my first anole, and the first time I saw a chameleon in a reptile store; now I'm an enthusiast. The thing is, Wade, when you get the government involved, you're asking for trouble. The government doesn't care. I install water systems in people's homes, and I've learned about how cheap the government is with cleaning our water. Chlorine wasn't used in water until after the first World War, they said 'Hey, this does an excellent job at killing things...let's put it in our drinking water.' I don't expect you to know how they used chlorine, so I'll tell you. Chlorine gas was thrown over on the field of battle and it dissolves your lungs and makes you choke on your own lung fluid. Point: the government is a neccessary evil; if they don't put any effort in our water, they sure as heck won't care about reptiles.

Now Wade, if you truely believed that this was grown up talk, you'd have stopped talking by now and listened. You have two ears and one mouth for a reason. You have to realize that the individual animals we do keep WOULDN'T EXIST if it weren't for captive breeding. The chameleon(s) that you have right now wouldn't have been hatched at all if it weren't for importation. And the fact that the climate changes in the world are going to result in many extinctions and some new species, and some of the animals we will have will only be in captivity because of this. In some respects we're doing a favour as well as a crime, it's catch 22. You also have to realize that 99.9% of all the species that have lived on this earth are extinct, everything we know today is .1% of everything that has been. And the fact that if the history of the Earth were put into a calendar year, for example the dinosaurs ruled from March to April, etc, that the human species has only been around for FIFTEEN SECONDS. Point: life goes on; things change.

CITES is making sure, for the most part, that reptiles and lots of other animals are being kept in check. Such as why you can't get Brookesia species. There are also many farms, there's even one in Bali, that breed species, as Chris was referring to, that send out F1 (that means the first generation of captive bred) babies to export services.

Wade, you have to think of the reptiles that die in pet stores as martyrs, they are paving the way to a better future for other chameleons. And when you think of it in a way where they wouldn't have even had a chance to exist if it weren't for the pet trade, it's a big loss, but it has a purpose. Everything has a purpose. What you would be doing if you were a smart guy, is not acting superior to the human race and bringing yourself down to everyone else's level. Print off one hundred care sheets for each species being kept in your area, it's a small price to pay, and give them to the pet stores that have those species in stock.

I was in a pet store on a work break the other day, actually this Tuesday, and I saw a basilisk, grass lizard, FB toad, and two tree frogs in a 10 gal enclosure. It didn't look that bad to an uneducated person, and the owner said the supplier told her she could do that. I explained where each species was from in the world, the fact they have indigenous bacteria in them that could harm each other, the fact the toad was poisonous, the fact they need various different setups, and the fact that they all grow and compete for food.

It's not that hard, but it's effective. You'd be surprised how far logic and common sense and reasoning will take you with people, all you have to do is build some rapport, put yourself on their page, become level with them.

And by the way, Ch. jacksonii xantholophus was imported to Hawaii in the middle of the last century, and the pet store owner let them out in his back yard after a very long shipment so they could regain some strength and get something to eat. Some got loose, they established themselves, and they are a pest in some areas on the (indigenous....) species of birds and reptiles and amphibians and insects. Nothing on Hawaii is exactly indigenous though, because it is a volcanic island and everything was either brought there by the Polynesians or migrated or got lost, but the Jackson's there, in large numbers, are a threat because of their appetite and variety of prey. In small numbers they are beneficial to keeping the balance of things.

In closing, Wade, just be reasonable, extremists are often looked down upon for good reason. And reason is what you need to acquire before action.

-Brock

[dank7oo]

Wade, you have to think of the reptiles that die in pet stores as martyrs, they are paving the way to a better future for other chameleons.
Just curious .. exactly how? How does an chameleon dieing in a pet store help other chameleons in the future?

Jason

[panther_dude]

OK yes ill admit i went a bit off the handle. I was wrong im sorry. BUt I agree with dank for a change. How are they paving the road to the futur. They are dieing for no reason, and it deffinatly doesnt help anyone. If an animal dies in a pet shop. MOST will just repace it in the exact same enclosure and not sit back and wonder why it might have died. That would cost time and money. Two things that is all most people think about.

Also Chris you have no way of knowing how I try and talk to pet shop owners about their set ups and the way they treat the animals. I talk to all the owners in the city and no everyone of them by name. I gradually tell them how they can help themselves and the animals they sell.
I think no matter how you put things. You are still telling them they are doing something wrong. ANd most people specialy ones in the biz for so long. DOnt like being told they are wrong. No matter how nice you are about it.

Again sorry I did go off the wall. I dont even think i meant half the things I said i was just ticked that everyone wanted to give a negative opiniuon instead of possitve. Next time ill just shut up.

Wade

[Brock]

No Wade, don't shut up, just don't act out of line when it's unneccessary. By all means, defend yourself, but don't just go negating what everyone is saying.

They're martyrs, I would say, because as a chameleon dies, one does more to accomodate the future chameleons. On top of the fact that it pisses people like us off and we try to do something. You can't say that chameleons being kept 10 years ago in pet stores were better off than the ones today. I've noticed an amazing improvement in reptile awareness simply because lots of people are pissed off that they are dying and that pet stores are losing money and reputations so they try harder....sometimes.

I guess death says something that words don't need to.

-Brock

[dank7oo]

But thats the problem. When one dies in a store, most probably just put another in its place, without fixing the husbandry.

Jason

[panther_dude]

Yes thats exactly what im trying to tell these ppl dank. No one really wants to listen though. They will also raise the price on the cham they bring to make up for the dead one.

I had an experience with a local wpg pet shop that was not very fun. I had orderd in jacksons and after waiting for 5 months they finally came in. Now the guy tried throwing me a bunch of garbage information to begin with. But when they finally came in in mid december, he told me that on top of the 600 I had already paid, I would have to pay an extra 700 that day. Well of course I went off the wall and told him to pretty much go screw himself.
Now my geusse is that because of the cold weather some of his shipment did not make the fligt. SO he decided to try and collect his losses from me. Well hell no I says. Anyways I didnt buy them so he sold them to someone who didnt know any better and ripped them off badley. I mean 1300 for a pair of jacksons come on now. ONly someone not knowing very much about chams would pay that much. Or someone with too much money.

This gets me to my second point of pet shops not giving a rats behind on who buys their animals as long as they have the money. As the case with jackson monumentouse, which were at a local pet shop. I went in one day and the reptile manager askes me how the jacksons are doing. I say "what the hell are you talking about?". " Well you bought them didnt you?" he replies with a stupid look an his face. SO i ask him you dont even know who bought them? Well No as long as they have the money and they bought like a 100 bucks worth or stuff to, the other reptile guy dint know anything about them so he just sold them to someone i geusse.

Well this really made me quite mad. $100 worth of stuff isnt going to get you very far. Especially with the prices at this store. Hey you never know they could have gone to a good home. But my gut feeling tells me the people say the little 10 inch jacksons in their 10 gallon at the store and prob thought that would be good for them at home. When in fact they need very specific cage requirments and humidity and such. So i dont really doubt that one of the most rarely seen jackson sub species is dead already.

Its really stupid and needs to stop
wade

[latazyo]

I can't believe how much more jackson's are up there....they're like 29.99USD at pet stores here

I agree with most of your points wade...but it's hard to relate because the pet stores here including petco don't carry chameleons because both stores (petco and privately owned) have said that they can't provide or afford proper care for them

[dank7oo]

Jacksons at $30.00? A little hard to digest but I guess anything is possible. I had seen them for about $70.00 US before (as the cheapest).

Jason

[Kevin McRae]

Is it legall to bring jackson's across the border?

If I can find a cbb for those prices I would be interested.

Wade, it seems like people are starting to listen to you.

[dank7oo]

I dont think it is, but after paying for CITES is becomes cheaper to just buy here.

Jason

[Collide]

Sometimes i look at some of the cham sites US side and i cry "not fair" out of jelousy of your cheap prices. But on the other hand i dotn want to think of how many $30 jax would die here at that price being scouped up buy spontanious inexperienced buyers. Its a hard thing for me i want them cheap soo i can get more without draining myself but i want prices high to avoid stupid people from getting them.

nother thing is the cheaper the cham prolly means its WC. CB chams tend to be more expencive.

[bear24]

Most breeders that will ship from US to Canada ussually have a minumum order of $1000USD or more. This is before they even factor in shipping.

[panther_dude]

Yes that is true they do require large orders otherwise paying the duty and a 100 dollar order will prob cost more then the reptile.
Thats great that they dont take in chameleons knowing fullwell they dont have the time or money to properly care for them. If only everyone thought like that. But really it doesnt cost that much more to properly house a cham. If you have the screen cages bought directly from the manufacturer, you should be able to get a good deal. I think it's the fact that it would take to much "time" to properly care for them. But really how long does it take you guys to spray down your cages a minute or two usually. Five maybe seven if your making sure they are drinking properly. Theyre just isnt enough knowledge at these places. I geusse it would be kinda hard to have employees specially part timers to learn how to take care of all the herps they have in stock.
This is why I sudgested that only breeders be the ones selling the herps. For a couple of reasons.
1. First of all they wouldnt have any babies if they didnt know what they were doing.
2. and secondly I dont think any breeders in their right mind would sell an animal to a potential customer that doesnt know the facts about the animals they are buying.

I know I went off the wall about banning herps completely and again im sorry. But I do think it would be proper to bann pet shops who do not properly care for their animals.

Also as with prices again, when I start selling my nosy be's my tag prices will be around 500 bucks. Now this is only to deter people from making an impulse buy. If they are really interested in the cham. they will have to go home do some research then come back to me for a quick quiz. If the test is failed then they will not receive the animal. If they do really well on the test as a bonus I will take 200 maybe 300 of the tag price. Now I know theyre will be people who will refuse a test and go elsewhere, to buy off someone who doesnt really care too much. To me this is fine as long as my babies are kept safe.

ANd yes I know CITIES is helping the importation of herps. But there are still thousands that die yearly do to improper shipping and handling when they get to their destinastion. It will take time but I know we can do better.

thanks for your possitve input guys. It really means alot to me.

wade

[Collide]

When i was looking to inport it was more like a 3000 minimum + the cost of shipping (not that bad) + the cost of CITES paperwork (wich is costly and takes a long time) baically u need to import a fairly large amount of chams to justify such a investment and 99% of chanadian cham keeper are not in this position from what i see. just some thoughts

[latazyo]

please don't stress your digestive system, dank, why would I lie?

they're usually 30-70 dollars, you could presume WC, but no way to know

[dank7oo]

I dont recall saying you lied *goes back and reads his post* Nope. Definitly didnt say you lied.

Jason

[latazyo]

easy

[panther_dude]

lol I dont think either of you guys should be saying "easy" You guys are taking things way to seriously. It is quite easy to determine wc from cb. A simple check of fecal matter, if worms and other parasites are present it is more then likely a wc. Unless the breeder is absolutly horrible.lol
Other things to look for is scarring as most wc do get into more confrentations then cb. But this could also possibly come about by being shipped with cage mates. Anouther factor would be adult chams being sold for cheap are usually wc. As cb adults usually cost more because of the amount of time and food spent to get them to that size.
So you can determine if the animal is wc or cb.

Again guys dont ake all the comments straight to heart. And read carefully before you post.

[dank7oo]

A simple check of fecal matter, if worms and other parasites are present it is more then likely a wc.
But would all WC animals have parisites?

Other things to look for is scarring as most wc do get into more confrentations then cb
Again, do all WC have scars?

Just a few thoughts; maybe telling CB from WC is harder than you thought.

Jason

[Samba]

Pet Store Responds to Complaints... http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16315)

Sometimes you can make a difference, but at best it'll be temporary. Sorry I didn't read the other responses, I'm busy here at work.. hope this will give you ideas... sorry if I repeated info... =)

[Chris_Anderson]

Not all WC animals have scars or parasites and CB animals can have parasites without the breeder/keeper being neglectful or keeping in bad conditions. A lot of herp vets recommend fecals to be done every 6 months to a year, even on CB animals.

Chris

[panther_dude]

Yes I know not all wc have these traits. In fact I dont beleave I said that all of them do. I even explained how shipping with cage mates could cause scarring. Also of course the vet wants you in every six months he wants your money. Do you Chris take all your chams to the vet every six months?
Maybe you could expain how a cham kept in the perfect atmosphere can get worms. I just find it alittle hard to beleave. Unless they come from wc insects I dont see how they could just show up out of no where.

(edited ~ DragnDrop)

Wade

p.s I think I was almost dead on when it comes to comparing prices of cb to wc. But of course there are always the jerks who like ripping people off no matter where the cham is from.

[DragnDrop]

Even 'CB' insects can and do carry parasites and/or eggs that can be passed on to the predator. That's why it's recommended to get fecals done regularly. Even our farmed crickets are a main source of intestinal worms.

How many people have their chams in a perfect environment? Even the best cham keepers have them in a 'good compromise' environment at best.

[panther_dude]

well to me the perfect environment is having the proper lighting temps and humidity levels. If you cannot acheive that then you shouldnt own a chameleon. Where do cb insects get these bugs from? I dont see how. wc yes I can understand. Unless the people breeding these insects are keeping them in horrible condition with fungi and stuff in their environment. I doubt the cricket foods we use contain these parasites. Again I just feel Its a money grab for the vets. Also performing a fecal exam yourself is not to hard. Need a microscope and some plastic bags really.

Now if you can point me out to more then a few people who have had problemes out of no-where with parasites let me know. And I might belave you. Who can tell its from the insects, its probably something to do with their husbandry technique. Like letting fecal matter sit on the bottom of the cage for days or weeks on end. I myself clean the cages daily, twice daily if need be. I realy cant see parasites coming from thin air. There has got to be something these people are doing wrong. Standing water for instance could inhibit parrasites along with many other health conserns.
I know of some ant species containing internal parasites. Maybe you could direct me to a link saying cb crickets also contain parasites. I'm sorry but its got to be more then someone just telling me about facts. I need to read about it, and see it with my own eyes. For all I know you could have heard that from someone else, who heard it somewheres else, who heard it from a rabbit I have no idea. I need factual information.

[Cruciform]

Panther_Dude,

Not meant as a flame, but if the owner of that store was trying to rip you off so badly why did you ever go back there for him to ask you how the chams he never sold you were doing?

[Brock]

Wade, I like your idea of $500, then $200 after a quiz, I like that, good thinking.

Now, crickets can and DO have parasites, someone told me all crickets have pinworms. Reptiles are hardy animals, they can deal with a lot, so it's not much of a problem in lots of cases, but bacterium and parasites can definately be there.

Heating and humidity and lighting are not the most important. I've heard of breeders having the best success in their basements keeping their panthers and veileds very very cool. Even cold, I've had success with cooler temps. It's like a ziplock bag, when something's colder, it doesn't age as fast, it's preserved. Same idea for why you should cool them at night, but it doesn't JUST have to be night. Another thing is lighting, I HATE how people buy $7 heat bulbs and $40 UVB bulbs. I haven't had a SINGLE problem in 4.5 years wtih .35cent heat bulbs and $1 UV lights from Canadian Tire. Even constant humidity is bad, it causes lung infections if it's too high and too constant. And to add on to lighting, I've heard of people cooking their chameleons to death near windows, and Ospreys picking them off outside on the lawn or tree. In my opinion, the three most important things are food, light, and water. I'd say most deaths are caused by dehydration. If you have a variety of food, feild plankton (wc feeders), as well as a healthy mix of five different staple foods (crickets, roaches, silkworms, mealworms, pinkies, waxworms, butterworms, pill bugs) then you're going to have one happy chameleon. Praying mantids, stick bugs, moths, worms, snails, slugs, it's all about variety, you don't even need to dust if you have a variety (gutloaded staples). And light is the obvious one, most reptiles need a basking spot to properly digest food and regulate body tempurature.

Just a quick question, how did handing care sheets out to all the stores in your city go? ;)

-Brock

[panther_dude]

Yes thank you brock. Now what did I say about people telling peole about something. I need factual information. From a scientist or someone in the biz for decades. As far as keeping them in cool or cold climates I wouldnt agree. Your telling me at cold temps a panther will live longer? Again Ill need some factual information. If I beleaved everything I heard I dont know what would happen. I know Jacksons can be kept cool as they live at high elevations in the mountains, panthers live in de forested areas, even near towns and people. Madagascar has a very warm climate and yes I beleave a cool period at night is needed for success. What is the lowest temps youve kept your panthers at?

What UV lights at canadian tire are you talking about? I dont know of any that contain uvb. But then again I dont have a uvb reader. Not to say your liing I would just like some real information. You telling me someone told you about it doesnt really help. Even articles on the web can be posted by anyone, if they know what they are talking about or not.

wade

[Chris_Anderson]

Originally posted by panther_dude
I think I was almost dead on when it comes to comparing prices of cb to wc. But of course there are always the jerks who like ripping people off no matter where the cham is from.

Referring to:

Originally posted by panther_dude
Anouther factor would be adult chams being sold for cheap are usually wc. As cb adults usually cost more because of the amount of time and food spent to get them to that size.

This is not a very reliable method to determine WC vs. CB. With many chameleons, WC breeder adults are very valuable. WC adult Ambilobe F. pardalis, for instance, are very expensive. Breeders are very interested I getting their own bloodlines that are unrelated to other breeders and as a result, these animals can be very costly. You simply have to know enough background on the species you are looking for and the market for that species to understand how to view advertised animals. Some species you can almost be totally sure without any other information that they are CB, others, you need to understand the market for the species, the frequency by which they are bred and other factors to accurately determine WC vs. CB.

Originally posted by panther_dude
Also of course the vet wants you in every six months he wants your money.

Its recommended to get your teeth cleaned every six months. It won't kill you if you don't but it is considered to be an appropriate precaution with the given risks. Same with the fact that you are supposed to get health checkups and physicals regularly before a problem occurs. You've taken the responsiblility to be responsible for the life of your chameleons, take the appropriate precautions with their health. You just need to locate a qualified vet and get a good working relationship with them. I highly recommend you take a look at the following article on this with chameleons: http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2003/oct2003/veterinarians/veterinarian.html

Originally posted by panther_dude
Do you Chris take all your chams to the vet every six months?

Wade, if you even started to do some of the things I do with my animals, I could say you, and anyone else, would have a much improved chance at success when faced with what could often be a high likelihood of death. For instance, on many of my chameleons, I have had complete blood assays preformed while they are healthy so that in the event of a problem, I have a standard reference of what the animal's blood chemistry should look like. There are many precautions that you can and should take. The ultimate requirement with regard to which precautions you didn't take is being able to stand up and be able to say, "I failed and my animals died because I didn't take the available and recommended precautions," because many of the deaths we look at every day are completely preventable.

Originally posted by panther_dude
Maybe you could expain how a cham kept in the perfect atmosphere can get worms. I just find it alittle hard to beleave. Unless they come from wc insects I dont see how they could just show up out of no where.

Yes, I can in fact! The only way for our cricket feeder suppliers to ensure that parasites and not present in their feeders is if their entire facility was treated like a hazmat facility. Since crickets and other feeder insects are only the initial carrier in the life cycles of many parasites, they are generally not the source of reproduction of them. Their eggs or larva are deposited in soils, foods and other areas and are easily transmitted to a subsequent middle host (like the crickets) and then transferred to whatever eats them. It is common knowledge to lizard keepers that their feeders can easily transmit these parasites without there being any fault to the supplier or keeper. To minimize such transfer, it is best to keep your animals in clean conditions but this does not eliminate the potential exchange. I can point you to a number of well known reptile vets and microbiologists who can and will more completely discuss the process and the recommended precautions surrounding this. Feel free to contact me privately for these if you want them.

Originally posted by panther_dude
(edited ~~ DragnDrop)

Darn, I would have loved to have seen what I missed. Wade, feel free to keep copies of what you post for me incase something is deleted you want me to discuss with you. I'd be happy to go head to head with you "privately" on whatever it is that needs to be deleted for the civility of a public forum.

Originally posted by DragnDrop
How many people have their chams in a perfect environment? Even the best cham keepers have them in a 'good compromise' environment at best.

Excellent point Hilde!

Originally posted by panther_dude
well to me the perfect environment is having the proper lighting temps and humidity levels.

This is one reason I personally feel you have a long way to go before you even try to start up your mass breeding projects. If only it were that simple.

Originally posted by panther_dude
Unless the people breeding these insects are keeping them in horrible condition with fungi and stuff in their environment.

We are talking about parasites, not fungi. As I discussed above, the vectors for transmission of parasitic eggs and larva are very difficult to control and presence of such parasites in farmed crickets is not uncommon.

Originally posted by panther_dude
Also performing a fecal exam yourself is not to hard. Need a microscope and some plastic bags really.

Most of us, including you, do not have the qualifications to perform accurate fecal exams. You are not able to determine with accuracy the presence of all parasites in their different stages of life. We aren't only talking about intestinal worms when we talk about parasites. We are talking about protists, eggs and other very difficult to detect parasites. Do you have access to a microscope powerful enough to view all these parasites or the dyes needed to see many of them? I highly doubt you know much of what you are doing and don't think it is good for you to sit here and mouth off against vets and speak for private cures when you are not experienced or trained in properly performing what you are saying is so easy!

Originally posted by panther_dude
Now if you can point me out to more then a few people who have had problemes out of no-where with parasites let me know.

I know many people who have experienced parasite loads in CB animals fed CB food sources.

Originally posted by panther_dude
Who can tell its from the insects

A microbiologist or an entomologist can.

Originally posted by panther_dude
Standing water for instance could inhibit parrasites along with many other health conserns.

Let me post a question to you then. Where are the parasites coming from to start with? How are they getting to the standing water in the first place? How are they getting into the enclosure? The Answer: the vectors by which these parasites are transmitted are almost impossible to control in an environment outside of a hazmat facility or a dustfree microchip facility.

Originally posted by panther_dude
I need to read about it, and see it with my own eyes.

That's a little hypocritical considering the other day you said you don't like to trust books and would rather talk to experienced keepers...Go to a university library and do some research. There is a wealth of information out there on parasites. You can also get in touch with a microbiologist and/or a qualified and experienced reptile vet. If possible, get in touch with ones that work with herps themselves. I know a number from other forums and lists if you need help.

Originally posted by panther_dude
I know Jacksons can be kept cool as they live at high elevations in the mountains, panthers live in de forested areas, even near towns and people. Madagascar has a very warm climate and yes I beleave a cool period at night is needed for success.

Interesting that on another recent thread you were telling me that you don't have to know much about their natural history to breed and keep them correctly...

Cool temps are fine as long as they are not too cool and there is access to a sufficient basking spot for warmth. I actually prefer to keep my enclosures with a significant temperature and humidity gradient so the animal can decide where they are most comfortable.

Chris

[panther_dude]

Ok Chris this is the last time I am going to tell you to back the @#&# off. I notice you dont post to anyone elses conserns but mine. What is the probleme you have with me? I am not intersested in your point of view and dont think I ever will be. Again back off or I just wont post here anymore. Thats all I have to say. Go bugg someone else. It seems others can make mistakes but I cannot for some reason. PISSS OFF

Oh ya dragon drop if you edit im out

[V.hb]

SPCA doesn't care, trust me i've been through it. Just dont buy from the store, period.

[Brock]

Ok Chris this is the last time I am going to tell you to back the @#&# off. I notice you dont post to anyone elses conserns but mine. What is the probleme you have with me? I am not intersested in your point of view and dont think I ever will be. Again back off or I just wont post here anymore. Thats all I have to say. Go bugg someone else. It seems others can make mistakes but I cannot for some reason. PISSS OFF


Grown up talk? Chris Anderson is the most grown up person here, man oh man. This post ^^^ says it all. Wade, there's an old quote that goes: 'Argument is the exchange of ignorance and stupidity; conversation is the exchange of intelligence and reason.'

Chris is the latter, you're the former. This post is pretty much done.


-Brock

[DragnDrop]

I don't think anyone is really being picked on. Some people accept an answer faster than others. The ones that insist on needing more proof will have more answered directed towards them. Since Chris probably has more cham experience than most or all of the regulars combined, he's the most likely one reply in detail to questions. Does that mean he's picking on anyone? It seems he's taking the time to actually reply in detail, not just a quick sentence or two. If there's a request for more info, more proof, more anything and he's the only one with that info, then don't jump on him for doing as requested.

This thread has strayed far from the original topic. It's also gotten a bit heated a few times but things were smoothed out and calmed down, so I left things alone for the most part. There's a lot of good info here, too good to be lost by removing the thread completely. How be we cool things a bit?

[dank7oo]

I have a few ideas that I will PM you with on Monday Hilde (crazy busy until then). Its late though and I gotta catch some Z's.

Jason

[Chris_Anderson]

Originally posted by panther_dude
lol I dont think either of you guys should be saying "easy" You guys are taking things way to seriously.

Originally posted by panther_dude
Again guys dont ake all the comments straight to heart. And read carefully before you post.

Originally posted by panther_dude
I do think people really need to calm down around here including myself.

The irony...


Wade,

There are a number of reasons I have been responding to you and not all the other posts in the forum. To start with, my computer is still not fixed so i have very limited time to spend posting here. As I've seen it, with the exception of threads where you go on a rampage, the threads are being handled fine without me so I see these threads as the best place to focus my time. You, to be totally honest, have a know it all attitude and god help anyone who corrects you. You sit there and go off on another thread about how intimidating you are ("I am very intimidating and people generally dont like messing with me," "But I can almost garuntee face to face half of you wouldnt have said the things you have to me.") trying to get people to respect you and you run your mouth about things you really have little to no experience or knowledge about. The fact that i'm not intimidated by your childish antics and have the experience you are lacking in these cases is a major reason why I've been responding to you as much as I have. To be honest, i don't really care too much if you do leave this forum, it'll be that much less negative energy and questionable "knowledge" being given as advice. This isn't a trend i've seen from you on only this forum. I know you go to other much smaller forums and do the same thing, just be aware that I have no problem discussing my experience when I feel it is of particular help or if need be, calling you or anyone else out on their shotty information and advice. Generally, when the latter is needed, it never goes beyond a polite discussion but you seem unwilling to be wrong about anything and would rather make stuff up then let it go. Very sad IMO. Having you stay and stop being such a know it all about stuff you don't know about and not being so defensive is the best option but whatever you feel you need to do but don't sit there and make threats about leaving if your post is moderated, thats just pathetic.

Chris