Found me a Hog

[ont_herper]

Went with my father this morning to look for a painted bunting, which I didn't get to see. Then we went to an area I've spent alot of time searching with little results and found a beautiful E. Hognose sunning along the road. It was probably around a foot long and it's markings were stunning. I was amazed at how thick it was for its size and how docile it was... no playing dead though. It's the first hog I've found in about 10 years so it was an awesome day.

[ont_herper]

Here the bad pic of a beautiful snake (Edited in Paint lol)

<IMG SRC=http://nature.gardenweb.com/forums/photo/msg0820204818345.jpg>

[reptiguy123]

Nice picture!!:)


Note: Atfer you crop you should be able to get rid of the white.

[mrcanada21]

I'll be looking for that painted bunting on the weekend, hopefully I see a hognose too.....but either would be well worth the trip. I'm hoping to get some pics of the bunting, will post if I do (with herp pics :))

Best regards,

Russ

[hog-nosed13]

Hog-nosed snakes are protected in Ontario, you should not be catching, moving or harassing specially protected animals.

Not if you were just moving it off the road (and happened to take a photo while doing that) I guess that would be a good thing, but you certainly should not pick it up if it was in a natural habitat (that's illegal)

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[hog-nosed13]

Well newest member to the brooks lab please inform me..

JR

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[hog-nosed13]

It is not for me to judge any herp enthusiast, nor do I write the Laws of Ontario. The term “capture” in the act means to hold or restrain (it states nothing about taking that animal to a place of residence). Harassment is somewhat subjective, but I would think that moving an animal from a basking spot or from under a rock would be considered harassment, I am sure that most C.O.s would concur. There is nothing that states you cannot photograph an animal (and I think that is a wonderful and fulfilling thing to do), however it does say that harassing a Special Protected Animal is illegal, so in the process of taking a photo if you harass that reptile you have committed an offence. Here is the relevant legislation.
In Ontario:
The Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act 1997
General Restriction States:
No hunting or trapping of a specially protected reptile.
Definition of Hunting
“Hunting” includes,
(a)lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of, or pursuing, chasing or shooting at wildlife, whether or not the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harasses, or
(b) capturing or harassing wildlife

except that "hunting" does not include,
(c) trapping, or
(d) lying in wait for, searching for, being on the trail of or pursuing wildlife for a purpose other than attempting to kill, injure, capture or harass it, unless the wildlife is killed, injured, captured or harassed as a result,


Seems pretty straight forward to me. Seems you are the one not informed.
I talk to one of the COs up here today and he assured me that moving/manipulating a SPR is an offence.
It is like the traffic act, going 1km over the speed limit is just as illegal as going 15km or 40km over the limit. However, the probability that you will be charged for going 1km over is nil, at 15km over you may get a warning or be charged, at 40km over it is highly likely you will be charged.
You can see a similar situation with regards to the FWCA97, for example, moving a Hognose snake off the road, Harassing/capturing a hognose to photograph it, and Killing a hognose are all illegal actions as stated in the Act. However, you will not be charged for moving a snake/turtle off the road, you could get a warning or charged for harassing or capturing the snake, and in all likelihood be charged and convicted (as was the case in Wasaga Beach) if you kill the snake.

To legally pick-up (capture/harass) a snake or turtle one would have to have permission to be removed from this general hunting restriction by applying for a Scientific Collector’s Permit from the local OMNR office.
Goes for amphibians too.

SPR include
Blue Racer
E Massasauga
Five-lined
Black Rat
E. Foxsnake
E Hog-nosed
E. Smooth Green
Both Watersnakes
Queen
Eastern Spiny
Blanding’s
Map
Both Painted
Musk
Spotted
Wood
Milk
Butler’s

More may be being added.


If someone where to pick up a Blue Racer or Lake Erie Watersnake on Pelee Island without a permit they would not only be committing an offence against the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act but also the Endangered Species Act.

There are a multitude of reasons people should not pick up wild specially protected (SAR) reptiles, from ecological, biological, disease-transmission, physiological the list goes on, unfortunately we do not understand all that there is to know about these animals, and we cannot assess the affect we do have on them my harassing (pick-up, manipulating) these animals even if it is for a short time. If a person was really committed to the conservation of the reptiles in Ontario they would only move or harass an animal when it was truly necessary (about to die on a road). However, after working closely with wild snakes for over nine years and following them around with radio-telemetry I can assure you that some snakes react very unexpectedly to various levels of disturbance

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[Ontario_herper]

Hello Jake!

It's great to see you on this forum.

I hope that you've come to share some of your knowledge about snakes and not to ridicule people.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Hey boys, let's try to play nice! Welcome to the ssnakess forums, Jake!

Let's all try to remember that laws are written by one group of people, enforced by another, prosecuted by a third group, and guilt is judged by yet a fourth. Interpretations vary both between and within these groups quite frequently. They also change over time, sometimes drastically (as in a new law being written), and sometimes incrementally with little notice being taken.

Now getting into the interpretive semantics, neither capture nor harass are defined in the FWCA. I'd agree, Ryan, that 'harass' is pretty subjective, and if your dictionary definition is used, looking for a snake may not be considered harassment. However, using that same source for the definition of 'capture', it doesn't specify a time frame for said captivity, so picking it up could be construed as 'taking captive', if only for a short time.

Until something went through the court system and got interpreted by the courts, I doubt we'd see a resolution to this debate. However, can you imagine a case going to court where a person picked up a snake, photographed it, and let it go? From the exposure I've had to the court system (following cases of interest regarding herps, plus my mother was a court reporter for years- I even got to type transcripts of cases), I think it would be thrown out, if it even got that far. We apparently don't even have enough prosecutors at present to continue with many drug cases, and the courts are backlogged with everything from assaults to drunk driving charges. Nevermind that it is hard enough to get a conviction even when someone kills a snake!

Having said that, I'll agree with Jake that picking up/ disturbing the animals can have negative effects on them. Even if the effects are minor, repeated disturbances could add up to problems. So, I think one should have a good reason to do so. If it is the first one you've ever seen, and you want a closer look, that is good enough for me. If you're leading a hike and want to use an encounter with a snake to teach the group about them, catching it might be the best way to do that. On the other hand, grabbing every snake you find is not the way to go, in my opinion.

Here's my best recommendation, in an ideal world- if you want to see snakes, ask to go out with someone who's doing research on them. You can help them out for the day, probably see more animals than if you went out on your own, learn more about them than you would from a field guide, and be covered by their scientific permits at the same time!

Cheers,

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

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[Kevin McRae]

In Manitoba garters are illegal to handle but Wildlife officers don't mind if your not harasing the snake....

[crossley]

You got to love our so called "conservation" laws. Someone can be chastised for for helping a protected species across the road and taking a photograph of it,but its o.k. for the provincial government to contravene it is own regulations and obliterate whole populations of said "protected" species to build a super highway through some of the most spectacular and significant habitat in the province. No one ever said the human species was logical.

[Cerastes]

It is not for me to judge any herp enthusiast, nor do I write the Laws of Ontario.
It sure seems from the way he talks like this guy THINKS he indeed wrote the laws!

It seems that this Hognose13 fellow JUDGES herpers wherever he goes! I might relate the story of his running into an ELITE crowd of herpers including probably the most prominent herpetologist in Canada and telling them he HATES herpers!

Then there was the time he accused a herper with 20 years of experience who VOLUNTEERS his time and expertise for a turtle survey that he is "wasting thousands of dollars" on "bad science".

As for Crossley's observation of the lunacy of the Government, it's OK Crossley... Jake has PERSONALLY confirmed that the new highway has only had an adverse effect on two rattlesnakes, and they will bounce back!!! (Never mind that our FEW visits to the area have netted us with several dozens of DOR sightings including rattlers AND hognose)

I have several more stories that would personally ridicule Jeremy, but I have a little more class than him. I wouldn't slag him in public the way he did me!!!!! I would merely advise the public of his own admittances!

[Ptindy]

I think some people can get to be a little anal about certain "acts" that protect reptile speciesand other wildlife. I believe these "acts" are necessary to protect these reptiles from poachers or collectors so that the correct justice can be implemented and the prosecutors have ground to stand on (the act) when prosectuing those caught posing a threat to the wildlife's well being. Someone merely picking up a snake that is cruising around (not on a clutch of eggs or protecting one or a similiar situation) for a picture is fine. Laws and acts are here to protect or punish the stupid. If everyone was as responsible as this thread starter was by just taking a picture we wouldn't need these acts. But unfortunately society is full of idiots and a**holes which make regulations necessary for EVERYTHING we do in this country.

[Herpworks]

>( Boy do i like it when things get feisty! Hey who shot J.R anyway? hmm... seems he shot himself- in the foot!! HA!!! bet he picked up a few snakes or two as a kid too. But then again, maybe not. He doesn't sound too passionate about the snakes he is studying. How many snakes has he saved off the road while doing his study or how many dead ones has he seen on the roads at night? probably none since his study is done during the day when the snakes are nicely situated coiled up and still. Take a road cruise at night and see how detrimental an effect that highway is having on the massasauga and hognose. Come morning however all the dead bodies have been picked up by coons and crows. No wonder he was quoted in the paper as only having seen two dead massasaugas as a result of the construction of the highway. I've personally seen a handful in one night. Sounds like bad science to me - build the highway, THEN see how many snakes it has killed. Great study you've got going there! News flash!! Look ahead 25 or more years and there won't be any massasaugas or hognose in southern Ontario. Then someone can spend all kinds of money and do a study on WHAT HAPPENED to all the snakes in Ontario!! Sign up now folks!!!