Mixed corn clutch - breeding to two different males

[vanderkm]

Have a pretty little reverse okeetee female that I bred to one of the creamsicle males this year
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_April_9_Ivy_Nibblet_1_reduced.jpg

and then decided to give my striped male a shot two days later even though he was only about 16 months old and hadn't been brumated but if I was lucky, he would fertilize a couple eggs.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_April_9_Sabados_reduced.jpg

I figured I could tell the babies apart - any normals would be sired by the striped male and be het for both striped and amel. Any amels would likely be from the creamsicle male, but I couldn't rule out that the striped was het for amel or other things.

The clutch had some very tiny eggs but most have now hatched (two tiniest and one other were dead in shell - I might have saved them if I had pipped them when the rest pipped, but was practicing the 'survival of the fittest' approach this year)

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_August_04_Ivy_Nibblet_Sabados_reduced.jpg

Plenty of normals, a couple anerys, couple amels and a snow

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_August_05_Ivy_Nib_Sab_clutch_3_reduced.jpg

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_August_05_Ivy_Nib_Sab_clutch_7_reduced.jpg

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/6304_August_05_Ivy_Nib_Sab_clutch_4_reduced.jpg

Nice suprises and I have now confirmed my female het for anery and I know the status of the normal babies, but it does leave questions about the two males. Is my creamsicle het for anery, or is the striped male het for both anery and amel?

Additional reading this year has suggested that when two different males are used in a breeding, it is always the last one that breeds the female that is the father of the clutch. I have read that it is rare that sperm from both males will fertilize eggs, but this is from web sources - no idea how strong the evidence for this is. Any opinions out there from experienced breeders?

I will be test breeding both males to different females next year to establish who is which and will have to sell the non-normal hatchlings from this clutch as possible creamsicle lines because I cannot be certain. It does amaze me that the little stiped male was able to come through so well.

Babies are quite small but in terms of type they are very much what I am looking for, clean uniform saddles, without zigzags and light backgrounds.

mary v.

[Invictus]

What a grogeous clutch! Oh, I can't wait to start breeding double hets together. Nothing like seeing the diversity you are seeing here.

[Jeff_Favelle]

That's crazy Mary! Time to raise the babies and figure it all out!!

Too cooool! :D

[thunder]

i know for a fact that you can get babies from two fathers in a clutch of ball pythons, but i don't know about colubrids. i have heard people say that you can, but i have never seen it first hand.

[MarcB]

Nice clutch Mary.

Got to love working with genetics eh! Not knowing what color will hatch, what better surprises can be had with these!

Congrats! Now whats going on with you hondos man?

[Scales Zoo]

I'm gonna guess the striper is het for snow, and would breed it to a snow female to find out. I just doubt that a creamsicle would be het for snow, but I guess it could be. Tim Spuckler might know.

That creamsicle is a really nice snake, I love it every time you post pictures of that one!

And about your question, we don't know for sure, but have reason to beleive that our last breeding of black ratsnakes had eggs, and then babies produced from 2 different males.

Ryan

[Simon]

Well anything is possible, so I guess even if the two males were the father of the clutch is possible.

But at the same time I would think that there should be a 'sperm war' going around. So its like the survival of the fittest too. The strong males' sperm would be killing off the other males' sperm and only would have 1 father that gets to the female's eggs. This is from what I have heard only....

I never really had that problem cause every year when I put two or more males together with a female, I make sure that the results are totally different so that I can distinguish which one is the father.

So basically what I do is Amel x Amel and Amel x Anery.....that way normals = normal het amel and anery, thus father being the anery and the amel x amel = amel therefore the father is the amel. But then there are also the chance of both being get for something and other stuff turns out..but do is statistically when the hatchlings come out then you should properly know

I don't konw...you really have to test to see if your cream is het anery or if your normal striped is het amel and anery.

Cause last year I had a clutch from my frosted creamsicle x frosted creamsicle and I had a snow frosted creamsicle come out so the creams could be het anery too~

Only test breeding will be able to help you out with figuring out the daddy~

Anyway good looking hatchlings and great parents~!

Good photos!

[vanderkm]

Thanks all - they are pretty babies with nice color.

Marc - hondo eggs are coming along - wayyy too slow - they started to dent a couple days ago - due by August 15.

Ryan - I tend to agree with you - it is more likely the striped male is het snow - preferable for me too - I don't want anery in the creamsicle line. This cream is the lighter of the two I got from you - should really take pics of them beside each other some day - this is a little guy but has really put on some size this year after breeding.

Simon - like you say - I thought I was safe on this one - didn't think either male would be het for anery or amel so thought it would be easy to tell the normals from the striped from the amels that would come from the creamsicle - those hidden hets will get you every time!

The test breedings will be next year - the striped to my butter female and a snow and the creamsicle back to this amel female - know she is het anery so it will prove the males out.

mary v.