HELP, something's wrong

[lostwithin]

Hi my previous post was about my new caiman, and so is this one, the little guy was acting very strange when he got of f the plan, barley moving est., I assumed it was shock so I left him alone and avoided bothering him. Now I walked into he room and the little guy was lying belly up under the heat lamp, limp and lifeless. I was horrified I just got this little guy and I was so excited and he looked dead. I picked him up and he was still alive luckily, but not very, I was worried him laying belly up under the lamp probably overheated him so I put him in the shallows of his swimming area and he stayed upright but still isn’t moving around much. Now I don’t know what too do I have NO idea what’s wrong, or how too help , Right now I’m hoping he makes it through the night., If ANYBODY has ever experienced a young crock found belly up that knows what might be wrong PLEASE I need advice.

Devon

[Big_V]

Id contact the person you got him from pretty quickly as he should be able to guide you better and you can ask questions about why this may be happening.

[Artemis]

awwww!! nooo! I hope he will be ok! Totally agree with big V, too. I wish I knew what to tell you! Keep us posted on how he is doing! Im crossing my fingers!

[lostwithin]

Hi, well its now the next morning and the little guy made it through the night. I put him into his swimming area and he hasn’t really moved from the spot I put him last night as far as I can tell but he is alive, he moved too look at me when I went too open the cage which he hadn’t been doing. he doesn’t try too bite or escape when I reach in though which seems very strange too me.
Oh, as for contacting the guy I picked it up off of, that was the first thing I did when it happened.

Devon

[Janiman]

Have you checked on-line for care sheets? There is a wealth of information there to help you trouble-shoot the simple stuff. Have you checked the temperature of the water? I honestly don't know the ideal temp. but my understanding is that it should be kept fairly warm and room temperature may not be warm enough. I lost one many years ago as I didn't have an aquarium heater and when he ate, he didn't get warm enough to digest his food. Although, at the time I didn't have a heatlamp (Ironically, it was supposed to be a rescue, but I was not knowlegable enough or properly prepared for it). That said, you should also check the temp. under your heat lamp as it might be that it's TOO hot for it.

[Artemis]

Well what did the breeder say??

[lostwithin]

The breeder gave me a basic rundown of how the little guy was being kept. other then water temperature the main difference was the size of the cage. so matching the cage he told me as well as I can I now have him in a 80L Rubbermaid with 2 or 3 inches of water and a large rock for him too get out of the water on with a heat lamp over it. I matched the temps of both the water and the hot spot too what he was keeping it at and threw in a couple fish (5 of them) and well the little guys moving around and went straight for the fish only one survived (so far). What he is in now doesn’t match at all what I read wee good specks for this species but the little guy seems much better off in this . The cage he was in was a 4x2x2 ply wood cage, with a soil substrate and 1/3 swimming area this guy is only about 6"SVL so it was LOTS of room. apparently it was just too much he got stressed with the move and such a different environment. He seems much better in this new one much smaller cage for now until he grows a bit.

Devon

P.S. pic's are on the way

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Glad to see he's doing ok. You happen to have done a rundown on my post about keeping crocodilians, yet? That may have helped you with giving such a large enclosure to a small animal, due that is is stressful. But, did you have it well vegitated, that would have been a bigger key. Hope he does well for ya' and glad he's ok. Good luck,
Xain

[lostwithin]

I realized that with any baby reptile too much space is stressful but I thought since this one was designed with all 4 sides almost completely plywood (with vents) and placed in a low traffic area he might be ok and even enjoy the digging room. But I will keep him in this smaller enclosure until he grows into the other.

Devon

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Ok, after running through paperwork in order to get situated for a few Zoo speeches I will be doing, I ran across a few old articles of mine and if this happens to be the same case, I would slow down on feeding fish..

According to a Western Australian ranch, a few of the larger cage mates (20/100) saltwater crocodile hatchlings were found floating or lying on their sides or backs; they were listless with their jaws open and unable to right themselves. Such as I assume yours was doing. The cause of this was due to a thiamine deficiency. I would guess your animal was fed a large fish diet, or maybe lacked proper vitamin supplements. However, the crocodiles in this case were fed the basic diet all crocodiles in Australian farms are fed so in this case It was suggested that the high growth rate may have caused the increased thiamine requirements; I'm not sure of the size and rate your animal is growing, but this could be your factor as well. If this happens again I would suggest a Vet running for an intramuscular injection of thiamine hydrochloride. Also, if you continue to use fish several times a month during feeding, I would suggest using dried brewer's yeast at 0.3% of the diet. Good luck and sorry I was so late on giving you the most probable cause of the incident.

On a side note, I am curious to which it may have been, stress or diet that caused this reaction on your animal. Have you tried putting him back into the original enclosure to see how he reacted?
-Not that I'm asking you too, but it is a legible Scientific method ordeal..
Xain

[lostwithin]

Hi, Thanks allot for that bit of info, I have read about high fish diets causing problems related too thiamine, but I heard the problem occurred much more severely when using frozen fish. I can’t remember what the chemical that builds up in frozen fish was called but according too that source the problem with a high fish diet was much greater if using frozen fish rather then live. I believe the main cause of how I found the little guy was stress. Although he is currently on a diet consisting of mainly fish he seems too be showing no other signs of any problems right now. He is actually very active now, and willing too snap at me when I go too pick him up. (Amazingly enough I was very glad when I reached in and he nailed my hand it seemed much healthier then the original calmness). HE also will eat while I’m putting food into he cage and not wait until I have left the room. I was debating moving him back into the larger enclosure but have decided too wait until next month when I will have time too watch very closely for signs of stress. For now I believe he is better off in the smaller cage (which is still plenty big enough its about 3xSVL by 5xSVl ) . And I am also hoping that next month I will be able too convert him too a lower fish diet and higher rodent. I will be sure too let you know how he responds too being placed back into the larger cage when that time comes. But for this month simply because I am VERY busy I will leave him in the smaller one with a diet he's used too.
I didn’t realizing that those actions were one of the symptoms of thiamine deficiency If it happens again I will be sure too go too a vet and its always a great help too have an idea of what it might be.
Thanks again,
Devon

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

The chemical that builds up is called thiaminase, which kills Vit B1-Thiamine. Live fish contain high amounts as well, like most fish from Carp families. (Goldfish), plus steatitis happens with feeding fish from.. Carp families. And, though live fish do contain less amounts of thiaminase multiple fish add the concentration up. Stress may have been the factor, which it most likely was, however, seeing that fish seemed to be a large part of the diet, figured I'd give you a heads up. I feed fish sparingly and if I do, it's either shark-Or any other marine fish-Bass or catfish.. Chunks for smaller animals. Minnows are decent feeders but do contain a relative amount of oil so sparingly with them as well. Also, I'm sure you are aware that herps are odd when it comes to their health issues that when problems do show up you have to work magic to revive them. Crocodilians are particularly known for this, plus being so young not a very good food source. The size he's in now is perfect, but my idea was to do it pretty much during this time now that he's is doing well. Just to test it out. But, it's no big deal. It's best that he stays unstressed, I was just curious. As for the fish diet, I would personally suggest making fish 15% of his diet a month A-sap. I feed all of my crocodilians less, except for the Johnstonis. But, that's just my personal standpoint.
Just giving you a heads up on what I would personally do when it came to feeding. Good to hear he's doing great.
Good luck in a few yrs, heh, that's when it gets fun.
Zane

[Artemis]

Yay! its doing good, im so glad! Now that its healthy and acclimating, we can really nag ya for pics!

Artemis

[BoidKeeper]

You're in Fredericton aren't you? Take him to Dr. McGregore she is the best reptile vet in NB. There is also Dr. Alexander in Saint John.
Trevor

[Rikki]

Awww, that sucks! I wish you and him the best of luck :(

[lostwithin]

Hi The little guys doing great now,

Trevor, She is a good vet, but I'm in Moncton for the summer, But no worries, the little guy is eating great, and snappy, seems like it was just stress that got too him. I'll get pic's as soon as I have a spare minute too take them.

Devon