Feeding

[anacondaman]

Id like to first ask no one to get offended cause this may be a touchy subject. I by no meens feed my snakes anything other than mice or what is in there natural diet. But ive been thinking alot about it lately. I dont believe in god or any religon. i just believe in the fact that every living thing in this world is equal. i just wanted to know what people opinions on feeding cats, ferrets and other creatures to snakes. in my opinion all these animals are equal.
im not trying to justify it or anything. actually at the moment my young cat MIA is sitting on my lap. im just trying to get a serious conversation started. Im just trying to see what makes cats more important than rats or rabbits etc.

adam

[mykee]

Personal opinion.

[justinO]

my personal stance:
we don't feed pets to pets.

we see the rats/mice/frozen bunnies as food. Cats, pretty much no matter who's, are potentially someones pet.

Also, most animals (especially ferrets!) are much more expensive and harder to breed than any rodent.

[Samba]

This is an interesting topic, and not to sound crude, but there were times I thought about it, with all the 'free puppies and kitties' ads. These 'pets' are born into a world where there are too many already. Most end up euthanized or being mistreated by owners.

If there were not any stigmas attached to the fact that most of us do own cats and ferrets as pets, using young, unwanted litters as a food source would appear to be a solution.

Let me also say that lots and lots of people keep Rats, Mice, Gerbils, Bunnies and a host of other creatures we typically think of as food for our pets, as their own pets.

I have never tried it, because I know my concious would get the better of me, but for someone else this could be an idea to experiment with.

If I, or anyone else I knew, wanted to give the idea a go, we would most likely be shot down when telling someone, "I'll take your whole litter, they'll be fed to my hungry pythons..." I, of course, wouldn't lie to anyone.

I try to remain open-minded, but this is a very touchy topic. Wild snakes would no doubt eat wild kittens if given the opportunity....

[treegirl]

I've had rats, mice, rabbits, cats as pets and would have to say that I could never feed a snake a cat. Not that I place them any higher or lower in the spectrum of importance. Cats, for me anyway, have very different and unique personalities. Then again, I've had a few rats with amazing personalities and even a male rabbit.

I dunno, buying frozen/thawed makes it easier. Kind of like buying beef/chicken/pork that's already cut up as opposed to killing the creature youself.

I'm a softy and feel sad for the pinkies that I thaw out to feed my baby snakes but when they've finished eating I always feel happy to have supplied them with a good meal.

That's how it is for me anyhow....

[anacondaman]

but the thing i dont understand is what is it about cats and dogs that make it illegal to feed to snakes and rabbits and such not/

my 2 cents

adam

[anacondaman]

but the thing i dont understand is what is it about cats and dogs that make it illegal to feed to snakes and rabbits and such not/

my 2 cents

adam

[hhw]

Is it actually illegal to use cats and dogs for food?

I seem to recall hearing somewhere that felines get rigor mortis really bad, really quickly thus making a poor food choice for a snake.

Personally, the only thing different about cats and dogs than smaller mammals like mice, rats, or rabbits is that they are more intelligent. However, pigs are also very intelligent and are used for food by humans all the time. I have no qualms with using cats or dogs as reptile or human food; there simply is no objective basis to give them such preferential treatment and I personally am not influenced by any social stigmas that would prevent me from using them in that manner. However, I don't simply because a) I don't keep anything for which a cat or dog would be a suitable prey item, and b) It's just plain uneconomical.

[Tim and Julie B]

A cat ate my snake.

[Samba]

I'm not aware of any laws that makes it illegal to feed puppies and kitties to snakes. Some might complain that it would be animal cruelty... which it is, if fed live, or not dispatched properly, in my opinion. If you feed a live rat or mouse to a snake I would also consider that cruel and unneccessary...

On the subject of intelligence... it has been proven time and time again, that rats are among the most intelligent of rodents. Yes, I would agree that dogs and cats have greater intelligence, but it makes no difference to me on this subject... I don't think it's relevant. I think the stigma stems from most people having grown up keeping dogs and cats as pets, not food. If that were different then, of course, we would not be having this discussion...

I'm sure people who raise and butcher livestock are perplexed with individuals who keeps horses, cattle, pigs, goats and chickens as pets. Depends on your upbringing, I guess...

It would be sad to see the day when people bought frozen puppies and kittens for their snakes and monitors, etc. but with that sadness would also come many happy, healthy animals who have homes, thanks to the fact that shelters wouldn't be so crowded, and the pressure to make room for 'new' strays wouldn't result in animals being euthanized within 3 days of their arrival in the pound. Let's face it, roughly 80% of the animals that go into a pound won't leave alive anyways, why not spare them in the first place?

Like I said before, I wouldn't consider using them as a food source, but for someone else willing to experiment, I keep an open mind. If things went my way I'd just toss a salad to my snake and we'd all live happily ever after!

[Oliverian]

Personally I don't like to see any life wasted, and I think it might be better if the animals euthanised at the pound were used as food for other animals. Then the death had a point, instead of just burying them somewhere. I feel the same about hunting... if you're just shooting animals for the fun of it, I don't like it at all, but if you're going to eat what you kill, then it's at least a little better.

They would have to euthanise them differently though, because you can't feed them to anything if they have deadly chemicals in them.

[capsicum]

After working at an animal shelter for 3 years, I do understand peoples' views that there are plently of them around.

But also after working at that shelter, I could never do that to them.

Yes, I started with rats as pets, and was disgusted with the idea of feeding them to reptiles. However, after meeting a few snakes, working with them, and understanding the snakes, I now don't mind it.

But, I did have to sell all of my pets, and kept only feeder breeders, and my breeding stock of hairless. Even then, if I had nothing else, the hairless juvies would be food (last resort only though).

In my own religion, I can't justify using a cat or dog to feed my snakes (not that I currently have anything big enough to eat them, but one day).

TK

[Samba]

I, and I'm sure everyone else here, respect your opinions. It's not just that "cats and dogs are plentiful, let's use them for food!" it's looking at all those lives wasted for nothing... it's entirely man's fault, yet they are the ones who suffer when they're homeless and hungry, when they go to the pound, not knowing their 'rescuers' will kill them within a week. All the ignorant people out there who still refuse to spay/neuter your pets... it's FREE now people! I've had two of my cats done for absolutely FREE!!!! Even if you have to pay a little bit, it'll be well worth it!

We wouldn't even be thinking of this idea if it weren't for all the unwanted free puppies and kitties listed in the newspapers, sitting in the pound...needing homes...

I agree with Oliverian, that if this would be a concept to implement we would need to find a safe and humane way to dispatch animals without rendering their bodies useless for food... (what about gasing?) Secondly, we generally have to get the public... the vets, animal care employees, etc. to see this effort as a good idea, and that wouldn't be easy.

I would love to save all the animals, and believe me, I would if I could, but that's never going to happen....

[capsicum]

It deffinately is the fault of humans! I agree, many lives go wasted because of careless people who think it's too much to alter their pet.

My religion is very animal and nature based, thats what I meant by that.

Also looking at my own cats I just couldn't do it. But then thats what I said about rats way back when.

TK

[annieb_mice]

This is an interesting topic. Personally, I wouldn't feed my snakes a cat or dog nor would I eat them myself, yet in other parts of the world they are considered a food source. In fact, in many other cultures insects are seen as a food source and are actually considered nutritionally better for you then mammals.
As far as intelligence goes, if we equate intelligence to being more worthy of living then by that same train of thought, dolphins and several other mammals should be worth more than humans as it has been shown that these animals are at least, if not more, intelligent than homo sapiens. Rats are supposedly just as intelligent as dogs.
Should we use cats and dogs as food for reptiles? Well.. it would sure decrease the number of animals being killed at the pounds! Why not just give these animals to zoos or whatever to feed to the larger carnivores? I doubt a lion or tiger or bear would think twice about eating a dog and I'm sure if people knew their family pet would be eaten it might make them stop and think before they so carelessly toss their pets aside when it suits them. :P
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[annieb_mice]

I'm with you, Samba! I tell people all the time to spay or neuter their animals, most complain that it costs too much. When I give them the names and numbers of free or low cost clinics, they STILL refuse! Sometimes I feel like taking these people to the pound to watch all the animals being killed because their owners refused to have them fixed ... but I doubt it would do any good. :(
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[hhw]

Now, here's the question with a slightly different spin...

What are thoughts on feeding reptiles to other reptiles?

[capsicum]

Originally posted by hhw
Now, here's the question with a slightly different spin...

What are thoughts on feeding reptiles to other reptiles?

Good question. If it is a part of their natural diet, then I think it is fine (sort of, if I kept them as my pets, I wouldn't want to feed them to another pet). I think it depends on what they would naturally eat.

TK

[Samba]

I agree with you, Annie. I just rescued a dog, two days ago. Her owners moved out of state and left her behind. Their neighbor is a friend of mine, and when he asked when they would be coming back to get their dog they simply stated that they wouldn't. They didn't want to take her to the pound because, they felt, she would have a better chance of survival on her own. Just this one time they were right because I got ahold of her and I'm never letting go. Despite the fact that I have a small one bedroom apartment, despite the fact that I can barely feed myself, I have taken this dog to be my family member. It's not easy and so many other people probably would have just looked the other way. I don't want to seem like I don't care, because I do, but I see a problem we have and like Oliverian mentioned earlier, if these animals are going to die anyways, at least dignify that death with a purpose.

As far as intelliegence goes, it is still irrelevant to me... just because one creature has a greater capacity for understanding than another doesn't mean the 'dumb' one deserves to die first. It doesn't mean that 'smart' ones should be spared. It means nothing because a life is a life, no matter which way you look at it...

The zoo idea might also be something that is viable, but again, to get that idea socially accepted is a feat probably impossible. Thanks for your comments!

[Samba]

I really don't care about feeding reptiles to other reptiles... it's a natural variation of many reptile's diets. I used to have hognosed snakes, and I fed them toads, even though I like them very much it wasn't a problem for me. Anoles, house geckos, etc. are being used as feeders for small snakes, monitors and other creatures... why not? We don't exactly have a spay/neuter your anole campaigne going on... LOL

[annieb_mice]

I don't have a problem with feeding the NATURAL diet to reptiles, regardless of whether that is other snakes and lizards or rodents. I know of several people that breed lizards specifically to feed to their kingsnakes. I wouldn't do this, but I don't have a problem with other people doing it... as long as the animals were humanely euthanized.
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[thunder]

a related story: once, a co-worker of mine was holding one of my newborn leos, and she accidentally crushed it (dont ask me how, she is an idiot). she was shocked upset when i fed the dying animal to a young mole kingsnake, saying that i should euthanize it and have a proper burial and such. i think that an animal shouldnt be wasted like that, that it is natural for animals to be eaten. my philosophy carries over, in that if any of my animals were injured in such a way that they could not heal properly and lead a comfortable life, i would rather feed it off than waste it. the fact that it was once my pet does not bother me, as i do not consider it disrespectful. it seems right that it should be returned to the "system," as it were.

[treegirl]

I personally wish there was a law forbiding anyone to have a dog or cat unless they had it spayed/ nuetered within the appropiate time. It should be a free service EVERYwhere. I've known of too many cases of people just dumping puppies or kittens by the side of the road. It's sickening!

Maybe the idea of using euthanized animals from the shelters as feeder foods for zoos would draw much attention to the national crisis of unwanted pets. Something needs to be done.


tree

[Samba]

I agree with you, Dawnell 100,000 %!!! People have to have a license to drive, sometimes to work, everything is so regulated, and yet this part of our culture is so neglected!!!! People should earn the privilage of 'owning' another living being, not have it taken away long after the damage has been done.

The idea of feeding someone's former pet to a snake, bear, lion or monitor is just shocking enough that people will fight against it and possibly come up with better ideas, it definately would increase awareness like you wouldn't believe. Maybe people would think twice about letting their animals breed; about putting those free puppies and kitties ads in the newspapers; hopefully, it'll make them think of small ways they can contribute... like just being a responsible pet owner in the first place!

[rwg]

People have a problem with killing things they empathize with. Most people (Westerners anyway) empathize with cats and dogs because everyone had one growing up. It doesn't hurt that they're mammals like us either, There's nothing special about them that doesn't apply to rats and rabbits. Anyone who cant acknowledge that just cant see their own bias.

That said, I wouldn't kill a cat or a dog to feed a snake. I would probably feed dead cats or dogs to snakes provided they weren't killed for that purpose. I have no problem with others using cats or dogs as feeders. I'm just biased. I have known too many cats and dogs far too well to do that.

My huge (23lb) male tabby cat died just yesterday. :( I would no more consider using his body as a food than I would consider using any member of my family as food.

Reptiles as feeders? why not.

rg

[Samba]

I'm sorry to hear about your cat... I know that loses are difficult. The idea we are discussing here is mainly unwanted litters of puppies and kittens. Adult animals are involved in this issue, but the point is that animals are euthanized in shelters, why not use their remains to feed another creature? Their bodies would just end up in a landfill anyways, doing no good whatsoever. In my opinion, people who have loved and cared for their pets get to do whatever they want for them... whether it be burial, cremation, etc.

Again, I'm sorry for your loss...

[hhw]

Just out of curiousity, for those who prefer burial to using their pets for food, do you believe in an afterlife?

Personally, I do not believe in an afterlife, or even the concept of a soul. I'm not even entirely certain I believe in consciousness as anything greater than a bunch of cells working together in some biological process.

That being said, a deceased pet to me is nothing but lifeless organic matter. I don't see how feeding the animal whole would be any different than having various microorganisms break it down in the decomposition process. Cremation would be slightly different, but that's simply subjecting your pet to a chemical rather than biological process, and despite being able to keep the remains around the house for rememberance, I don't see that as expressing any more respect for your pet's memory than just simply feeding it off.

However, this opinion is based on my feelings toward an afterlife, soul, and consciousness. If I believed in any notion of a deceased pet's happiness from beyond the grave, perhaps I would feel differently. I'm just curious if this is the primary reason other people base their opinions towards using cats, dogs, or reptiles as food.

[hhw]

Originally posted by Samba
As far as intelliegence goes, it is still irrelevant to me... just because one creature has a greater capacity for understanding than another doesn't mean the 'dumb' one deserves to die first. It doesn't mean that 'smart' ones should be spared. It means nothing because a life is a life, no matter which way you look at it...


As far as using a humanely euthanized animal food, I would agree with you. I don't think I could ask for a better death myself than to simply pass out and die without ever feeling any pain or being aware of my coming death.

However, I would probably use a live rodent to feed a reptile as a last resort, but I could never see myself feeding a cat or dog live. It's not so much a valuation of life, as it is the animal's capacity for suffering. Possessing greater intelligence and understanding, I feel a cat or dog would invariably suffer more than a rodent. Now, where you draw the line between what is too intelligent to be fed live and what isn't, I would not be able to answer...

[anacondaman]

Life nomatter how small or big...beautiful or ugly is equal. As much as we all like to think..on a universal level we are no more important than any of our household pets. I can honestly say if i had found kittens and could not find homes for them i would have no problem feeding them to my snakes.
as far as a line of what could be fed live and not. i dont think its fair we make one.

adam

[Samba]

HHW _ I do not draw a line between what is too intelligent and what is not to be fed live, (except when speaking of insects). It's not as humane as making sure the animal will not feel or know anything about what is coming to it. I don't think the suffering would be any worse for a dog or cat, except mentally (the intelligence we are speaking about) if the animal has come to know and trust humans. Many feeder rats have come to know and trust humans as well...

I do believe rats suffer, and they know that death is impending when they meet a snake... that's why they run and scream... I have (unfortuantely) fed a live rat to my snake once when no frozens were available and I was getting desparate for him. The rat knew the snake would kill it. It ran, screamed and even nipped at my snake in a attempt to stay alive. When it was all over (and I did not stay to watch) I swore never to feed live again, or at the very least, whack the rodent myself to spare its suffering. I felt a horrible, horrible guilt for a long time and cried a lot of tears for that one, single rat.

I know that in nature, none of the rats and mice eaten are humanely dispatched... but in circumstances where humans control the climate, movement and environment for our animals (both pets and feeders) we also take great steps to decrease suffering, to make ill animals well, and to end the lives of those suffering.

No animal should suffer, no matter what it's mental capacity is. No domestic animal should be euthanized because there is no home for it. I would never feed a live cat or dog, but I see no real difference between them and rodents...

[anacondaman]

As keepers, we provide our animals with a controlled enviornment. In that, we also have the ability to limit suffering of any animal. Any keeper who does not at least try to limit the suffering of the animal being fed is not fit to keep the animal about to eat.

About what type of animal is allowed to be fed to your animals... i think it should go by the locality of the snake your feeding. If i had an african rock python, there shouldnt be a problem with me feeding tyhe snake cats...because there is a very good chance an african rock will eat wild african cats.

[hhw]

Sorry, in regards to my comment for drawing a line, that was not directed to you personally. I used "you" in reference to every person.

Keep in mind, I am referring to specific extraordinary circumstances. I feed exclusively carbon dioxide euthanized prey, but if I were ever in a position where it came down to feeding live or watching my pet starve to death, I think I would resort to using a live prey item. I would use a live rodent, although probably a younger one yet to open its eyes and thus, as far as I can tell, less aware of its impending death. If it did come down to using an adult rodent though, I still think I would.

Now, I think everyone draws some sort of subjective line as to what animals they will use as live prey. As Samba mentioned, insects are acceptable. There are people out there who believe no living thing should die at all, and would find feeding live insects unacceptable. After all, a lot of people are against boiling lobsters, as they feel that is inhumane. Then, there are people who would have no problem with using live fish as prey, whereas othes would. The same goes for amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals (although it may fall somewhere within one of those animal groups). I am certain that somewhere there is someone extreme enough who would even use humans to feed their pets if they could get away with it (After all, there are all kinds of people on this earth).

Also, I should probably note that there is probably a line where people have no problem with feeding live at all, and another where they will only feed live under extraordinary circumstances.

I personally will feed everything up to and including fish as live, with no problem whatsoever. Amphibians, reptiles, and some birds and mammals I will use as live prey in extraordinary circumstances, but avoid as much as possible. Now, all this is entirely based on what I personally feel is the capacity for suffering to be. Even crickets will struggle to escape once captured in the jaws of a lizard.

Anyway, that's just where I stand. I will use any animal that is humanely euthanized as food. I will use some animals and not others as live prey in extraordinary circumstances, and I will use some animals live under any circumstances while not others. This is based on the objective reasoning that some animals have a greater capacity for suffering than others, and a somewhat subjective determination as to which animals are acceptable while others are not.

[Samba]

Originally posted by anacondaman
Any keeper who does not at least try to limit the suffering of the animal being fed is not fit to keep the animal about to eat.

I totally agree with your statement, Anacondaman. In circumstances where there is not a frozen animal available, at least the animal should be put down in a swift and humane way. It wouldn't be fair for them to grow up trusting humans, and then have a human throw them at a hungry python. In the wild live animals have the opportunity for escape or to hide. In captivity only a miracle could spare a rodent in such a situation.

Originally posted by hhw
Sorry, in regards to my comment for drawing a line, that was not directed to you personally. I used "you" in reference to every person.

HHW, I take no offense, I understood your point and felt it would be more engaging if I shared my personal opinions.

Your comment about choosing between watching your pet starve to death or feeding live is one I share, with one difference, though. I still wouldn't feed the animal live, I would instead whack it so that it would be painless. I don't like the idea of whacking, but I know, if done correctly, would spare the rat the mental and physical agony of being eatten.

I for one, am against the live preparation of animals for human consumptions, including lobsters and fish.

I just don't believe anything should have to suffer unneccssarily. Crickets and worms destined to become my gecko's dinner are placed into the freezer just long enough that they go into a sleep (also makes capture easier for the little one).

If anything, I could be one of those 'extremists' you might be talking about! LOL

[anacondaman]

does anyone actually know the laws pertaining to feeding cats and dogs to snakes????


adam

[Samba]

Nope, Sorry. I really don't believe there are any... otherwise they might also pertain to live rodents, amphibians, reptiles and even insects(?!). If there is a specific law law relating to only canines and felines being used as a food source for human or animal I'd be very interested in reviewing it...

The only laws I can think might affect this topic would be Animal Cruelty Laws; and even those would probably only apply in a situation where an animal was fed live, and thus suffered....

[Samba]

Ok, after looking around a bit I found some interesting articles related to this subject. I started a new thread called, "Teacher Wants to Feed Puppies to his Snakes"...

Hope you find it as interesting as I did...