Wanted to share

[David Kwok]

a pic of this spider who is also het for orange ghost.

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/202E_3_Spider_PHG_001-med.jpg">

Some ppl say you can't tell possible hets apart.... you be the judge.


Enjoy!

Dave

[Tim_Cranwill]

Niiiiiiice snake, buddy! :)

I hope you're right about his het ghostness! ;)

[NiagaraReptiles]

I'm confused, what makes that a "visual" het Ghost?

I have several 100% het Ghosts and possible het Ghosts and I don't see any similarity in any of them.

JonK

[emroul]

BEAUTIFUL!! I love all the orange on him. *hint hint*, lol.. I love him! Uhh, wait... "he", right?

Jennifer

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

KWOK:

I hope your right too, waiting home on Friday for it.

Hmmmmm, lol.

Cya...

Tony

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

KWOK:

I hope your right too, waiting home on Friday for it.

Hmmmmm, lol.

Cya...

Tony

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

KWOK:

I hope your right too, waiting home on Friday for it.

Hmmmmm, lol.

Cya...

Tony

[mykee]

Tony, let's go for lucky #4....LOL.

[Jeff_Favelle]

LOL!

[hiss-hers pyth]

Very nice looking spider, David!!! Good luck with them.


Michael

[mykee]

Maybe I've been asleep under a rock for a while, but the only snake that there is a "visual het-ness" in is a pied? Or was that a joke?.....

[Tim_Cranwill]

Mykee, I don't think it has been proven either way if there are markers or not. My <i>guess</i> would be there are NOT markers but what do I know? :)

[thunder]

you have been asleep under a rock. in ball pythons, there is no visual het for piebald as it is a simple recessive gene. the same goes for many other morphs, such as amel, axanthic and carmel albino. however, there are also many dominant and codominant morphs. when a trait is dominant, this means that the heterozygous animal will show the trait visually, as well as the homozyote. in a co-dominant morph, hets show the trait in a lesser form than the homozygote (or "super") animal does. for example, pastel is a het, and super pastel is homozygous.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Mykee IS aware of all that Thunder, BUT there IS some strong evidence that het pieds CAN be picked out from the "possibles". :)

[thunder]

i didnt mean to sound condescending. i didnt read the whole thread, and now i feel stupid. sorry mykee!

[Tim_Cranwill]

That's cool, man. <i>I</i> didn't mean to sound condescending either. Sorry if I did. :)

Don't feel stupid at all. Reading Mykee's post, someone who doesn't know what his level of knowledge is would assume just as you did. :)

[David Kwok]

Tony I appreciate you posting three times to make it seem as though I am more popular than I actually am ;) thanks buddy!

Mykee and Jon here is my explanation to what makes a "visible het ghost"

Obviously this only applies to people who are concerned about the possible hets that they produce if you are lucky enough to have 100% hets, cheers to you!

Well here it goes:

I was discussing intergrade genetics with a well known breeder in the U.S. We were talking about how difficult it was to distinguish b/t a pure Suriname boa (B.C.C.) from one that was crossed with a Columbian(B.C.C. X B.C.I.). We talked for a while and the main points of the discussion were:

In a BCC X BCI litter all of the babies are technically 50% BCI and 50% BCC however, there will be some of the babies that show more BCC influence and vice versa. So much to the point where you can not tell they are integrates. Some of the babies you can say that they are 90% Suriname although they are technically only 50%.

The same thing occurs in JCP X Diamonds and others except not in such dramatic fashion as such. So how does this correlate to simple recessive genes? This may seem like I am comparing apples to oranges so let me say this:

Apples and Oranges are both fruits
Intergrades and Simple recessive genes are characteristics of DNA

My theory is although the gene is simple recessive, the “gene” in this case hyper melanin will <b> at times </b> bleed through a bit more just as in the BCC X BCI intergrades.

Here is a 50% possible het for orange ghost that is a sibling to the spider above.
<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/2021PHG_005-med.jpg">

As you can see she has a lot more “orange” which would suggest to an optimist like me that she is indeed het for orange ghost.


Another example of the genes that bleed through courtesy of Bradford Cole:

<img src="http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/202snow_clutch-med.jpg">

This clutch was result from breeding two dbl het snows together. To me the snake that is fully out of the egg has a lot of grey bleeding through. Again being an optimist, I would say that that snake is a het for axanthic. The baby albino from on the right in comparision to its sibling albino on the left is lacking more yellow, as an optimist I would say that it is most likely an albino het axanthic.

On a closing note, I hope I didn’t bore anyone with this writing and like me; you are entitled to your opinion about this issue. Please don’t hesitate to take some jabs at me I am open to your civil opinions.

Dave

P.S. The Earth was thought to be flat at one point in time. :)

[mykee]

David: I'd love to see you prove out your theory with this possible "visual hetness". That would be pretty neat if you could in fact pick out the hets from the possibles.
Thunder: Don't apologize, everyone jumps the gun. I've been known to do it on occasion (cough cough...) To further explain my initial post, it's been discussed in some circles that one can tell a het pied by the markings on either side of it's belly.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Interesting theory, Dave. I see that as a possibility as well. One of the only reasons I would lean towards the "no markers" side is because I think by this time, word would have gotten out if it were possible to tell poss hets from true hets. But like I said, what do I know? :D It could be one of the best kept secrets in the industry! :p

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

MYKEE:

Sorry at times the site takes 10 minutes or more to load and I never know if it loaded and give up then this time I see it loaded 3 times, oh well it happens.

LOL...

Cya...

Tony

[Corey Woods]

Most hets pieds look visably different than normals, however, not all of them do. So, I guess one could say some het pieds look to be het pieds and some het pieds apear to be normal (when one of their parents is a pied and the other being a normal). However, with Ghosts I have not seen any outward characteristics that would separate a het Ghost from a normal. I've produced both 100% het ghosts and 50% possible het ghosts.......if they were in a bin with a bunch of normals they would all look the same. Where as if you were to put 10 het pieds in with 10 normals one could most likely pick out 8 of the 10 het pieds.

Basically, the only way to be certain that you have 100% hets is to buy from a REPUTABLE breeder........or produce them yourself from a homozygous animal bred to a normal. If your "het" has ticks you know you got screwed.

Corey Woods
PS another simple recessive gene that you can reliably tell most of the hets from is the Granite Burmese. Most hets have a very broken up "puzzle" pattern too them. However, since only about 9 out of 10 hets exhibit this pattern you can't say that it is a Co-Dominant trait (since most but not all the "hets" exhibit this pattern).

[Clownfishie]

Whatever else it is, or isn't... that is one gorgeous BP David! :D


Jen

[hhw]

Victim of lagged server response. See post below.

[hhw]

I wouldn't be surprised if there was at least some correlation between the visual het characteristics and actual het genes. However, it would be interesting to see how high that correlation actually is. Unfortunately, it would cost way too much in breeder stock to put out some really solid figures. However, I'll be glad to try if people feel like donating their visual hets to me ;P

[NiagaraReptiles]

But why would only possible hets show visual characteristics and not 100% hets? That's where I'm confused.

As for the het pied marked belly thing, I have several normals with this petterning and a 100% het pied with normal patterning..........If I were to produce possible het pieds, I think I'd just keep all of the females ;)

JonK

[David Kwok]

My theory is not a "all or nothing one". I am not saying that every single het or possible het has a marker or some indicator that it is or isn't a het. What I am saying is that<b> at times</b> these genes do bleed through in some traits more then others. The proof is in the pudding. ;)

Dave

[snakefein]

those are great bps david i cant wait until i am into tht level of breeding to where i can have little albinos hatching

[RandyRemington]

A while back someone posted on ks about a HET ghost that shed clear. So when I went to pick up my first het ghost I got to talking about it to the breeder who had a nice ghost project going. It happened to be cleaning day so he went through his het ghost cages and sure enough some had sheds in them and we found at least one that was patternless. The male I picked up has normal dark pattern pigment in his shed but he is a very nice looking bright snake. Can’t wait to see his eggs hatch in September. I’ll probably keep all the 50% chance het girls but concentrate on lighter ones.

So it's got me wondering what is going on. Is one ghost gene enough, in some circumstances, to reduce the level of dark pigment? I guess only half the copies of whichever chromosome contains the ghost mutation would be normal and producing whatever enzyme the ghost mutant copies lack (or for all I know the mutation adds an enzyme). In a purely recessive mutation half is enough to prevent any visible difference.

Or could the high yellow and tendency for patternless sheds have been introduced into this ghost line over the years and have nothing to do with the actual ghost gene. I mean if you where looking for some nice normal females to add to your ghost line maybe you would pick the brightest/lightest ones and that coloration in it's self might be genetic and passed down in addition to the actual ghost gene.

Also remember when Skip Nelson hatched those double het caramel (can't remember what else) that had dark red eyes like their caramel dad? I'm about of the opinion that the concept of simple recessive might be a little oversimplified and in the real world some "recessive" morphs have some co-dominant tendencies. I don't really have an explanation for the mechanism by which it only appears sporadically though. I think the sporadic nature is what kept the pied marker can of worms closed in public until last year and still creates a lot of skepticism on the subject.

[David Kwok]

Thanks for share your thoughts and experiences Randy.

Dave