Can you identify this guy ?

[wyz]

Here's the story.

Bought this guy about a year ago.

Purchased as a Blue Nosybe Panther.

All along, I found that the blue wasn't coming out so I ocasionaly emailed pics to the breeder asking if there was a mistake when it was sold.

Breeder never said it was impossible, but it's something that never happend in the past.

Some friends tell me he's a cross and for sure not a pure blue. (breeder does breed more than 1 local of panthers)

Breeder tell me it might be because he's cold, might be the type of UVB I use, tells me he lookes stressed... etc...

It's starting to sound like BS to me.. Please tell me what you think.

I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
I bought a blue Nosybe female to go with him and if he's not a pure blue, my project is down the drain.

Here are the pics

http://www.wyzza.ca/album/panther/male_blue_200704_1.JPG http://www.wyzza.ca/album/panther/male_blue_200704_2.JPG http://www.wyzza.ca/album/panther/male_blue_200704_3.JPG

WYZ

[meow_mix450]

Looks like bad news, What i think is that its a cross theres no way that can be a nosy be.

Meow

[Collide]

Its quite possible he is nosey keep in mind not all chams from Nosy Be are blue I have seen some pics of wild Nosy's and they had some red in the face like your guy. So with out knowing for sure i think u do have a nosy just not a blue blue one. Im not an expert on determining locals though so we will see what others think thats my guess.

Brandy

[dank7oo]

I would put money on the fact that is a cross. Prolly a nosyxambanja.

Jason

[Chris_Anderson]

It looks like a cross to me as well. Here is a link to some photos of Ambanja and Nosy Be F. pardalis I photographed while i was there a couple years ago: http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/parsonii2002/album?.tok=phDhEfBB81J.PWCB&.dir=/4d2b&.src=ph

Chris

[HeatherRose]

I had a nosy be that began to turn red as well...as he aged, he became more and more red...has anyone ever heard of this colouration being synonomous with aging?

[meow_mix450]

the red is normal, mine has some red its jsut the other colours on him, but still looks like a great cham

Meow

[panther_dude]

yes what scum did you buy that from that lied right to your face.
Man people in this biz seem to say anything to make a sale.
I think we need to come up with a breeding license for chameleons. So that we never have to worry about running into problemes like this. Sure its ok to cross breed once in a while but you got to let people know its a cross. Really ticks me off.

[dank7oo]

A breeding license really would not do anything. It would not stop someone without one from breeding their chameleons and selling them honestly, and the same, it would not stop someone with a license from lying to the buyer.

This 'business' relys solely on trust. I for instance would never buy a baby panther chameleon from a pet shop (for the obvious reasons and) for the simple fact that I do not know whether or not their labeling of 'nosy be' is correct. Instead, I would go a reputable breeder, who people I trust swear by, or one I have been satisfied wih in the past.

Similarly, if the pet shop take superb care of their snakes, maybe I would not have a problem purchasing a rosy boa or ball python from them ... I know what I see is what I get.

Maybe the whole problem with panthers is a mixing of locals 50 years ago, just showing up now. Ex. A nosy be and a nosy be produce a nosy be. A nosy be and ambanja produce a nosyxambanja (50 50). The babies have babies which would be 75% nosy and 25% ambanja. The coloration patterns may be similar, giving the impression of a pure nosy be. Now, 50 years later, the offspring (generations later) is caught in the wild and because of the color patter, is labeled as a nosy be (even though it is still a small portion ambanja [assuming all offspring continued breeding with pure nosy be]). This baby makes it too a breeder, who again assumes the nosy be status. Now you have a situation where the ambanja gene may appear in the offspring, but is oblivious to the breeder, who sells as a nosy be. Then as an adult, that "nosy be" appears with strange colorations, not typical to nosy bes.

While this example could possiblely happen (but I assume never would because of dilution), I am just using it to show how perhaps it always isn't the breeders fault in crosses.

Jason

[wyz]

I did get it from a very reputable breeder..

I'm just wondering what to do now..

This person lives far far away from my place.

Also I wouldn't want to trade it for a young blue, this guy is almost ready to breed...

I'm also wondering how many other crosses were sold... imagine, I got a male, so I'm lucky to see he's not a pure blue... but imagine the ones that got females from the same clutch...

They'll be bred with pure blues and the surprise will be there only when to babies start to show colors.. which might be too late, since they might be sold young..

Things like that, really hurt a long way.

I still beleive in the words of the breeder. It's either an unwanted copulation that occured on a not so pure female that got pregnant.

WYZ

What do you guys think I should do from here ?

[Collide]

Its possible like u said that the mother was not a nosy this could be hard to find out unless u know the true source of her and or the breedign history.

I think that u should contact the breeder let them know about your cham, and at least they will know that that female is not nosey. or can at least be aware.

I got a male nosy ready for some action lol pm me if your interested in a little breeding project.

B

[panther_dude]

yes but will a cross bred animal be able to breed so many times? I always thought that crossing and inbreeding would lead to major health issues. If this is that case would they be able to survive and have enough generations in 50 years. Also arent there problemes with captive breeding four or five generations down the line? So if this is true for a pure blood chameleon. Would a cross or inbred animal not have even more problemes down the line of generations, an example would be infertile offspring. So I geusse what I'm asking is could a blood line of a cross-bred animal really last that long?

[meow_mix450]

its really hard had to find out if there pure when young, cause they dont really show there true colours when there older, but thats what i think. But if you start breeding maybe you should find WC panthers, youll get new blood lines and your garenteed(sp) that youll get a pure nosy be. Im not sure if mines a pure nosy be but it seems like it.

Collide: Have you found out if yours is a pure or cross???

Can vets tell if its a pure or cross by taking some blood from the cham? or is that unlikly. What if they had a sample of a pure wild caught nosy be and captive bred can they tell that way?

Meow

[Chris_Anderson]

Ferguson states in his book that "Hybrid panther chameleons produced by parents from different localities have proven to be reproductively inferior." That isn't to say these hybrids can't reproduce effectively, just that generally they tend to have lower reproductive conditions. That being said, I don't think any lines have remained in captivity over 20 years. I think wyz hit the problem right on with how far these crosses can get and how badly they can mess with the captive populations. As for a breeding license, its not very logical unfortunately. We created the Captive Chameleon Bloodline Tracking Database ( www.chameleondatabase.com ) to try to minimize the impact of unintentional hybridization and inbreeding but unfortunately, the participation hasn't been quite what we were hoping for. Vets can't tell the difference either. There hasn't been any genetic studies on mapping the genetic differences in pardalis locals that would be needed to conduct such a test. Even if there had, it would be extremely expensive.

Chris

[panther_dude]

well if there hasnt been any genetic studies then how can you go and tell me that panthers are locals and not sub-species. Do they not determine this through genetic studies.
Is it not possible that one of the forms of panther chameleons today was the original from madagascar that eventually spred out throught time and eventually ended up adapting to there different environments through things such as colouration and marking. If the original still exists it could have become extinct hundres of years ago. I find it hard to beleave that in the begining of panther history there were many different forms of the same animal. I geusse we can call upon darwins finches for an example.
So Chris how can you argue with me about locals and sub-species if the proper research hasn't been done.
It seems you really just want to argue with me and prove me wrong any chance you get.

[dank7oo]

I think Chris was referring to genetic studies that show different genetic make-ups for different color variations.

Let me know if I am correct in this Chris.

Jason

[Chris_Anderson]

Originally posted by panther_dude
well if there hasnt been any genetic studies then how can you go and tell me that panthers are locals and not sub-species. Do they not determine this through genetic studies.
Is it not possible that one of the forms of panther chameleons today was the original from madagascar that eventually spred out throught time and eventually ended up adapting to there different environments through things such as colouration and marking. If the original still exists it could have become extinct hundres of years ago. I find it hard to beleave that in the begining of panther history there were many different forms of the same animal. I geusse we can call upon darwins finches for an example.
So Chris how can you argue with me about locals and sub-species if the proper research hasn't been done.
It seems you really just want to argue with me and prove me wrong any chance you get.

Panther Dude,

Before I even start with you, Jason is correct. I was refering to studies one the make ups of the locale specific color variations.

As far as your statements that I'm in the wrong for correcting you for refering to locales as subspecies, you obviously need to gain a better understanding of systematics. I really recommend you take some classes in evolution, vertebrate ecology or even intro to bio as this is a general topic that is discussed in these classes. Systematics is not based exclusively on genetics. While phylogenetic studies are one way to examine speciation, it is relatively new, and the majority of work remains, and continues to be centered on morphological variation. F. pardalis locales have not shown researchers significant enough variation to be scientifically classified as subspecies. They are what conservationists call distinct population segments. The whole thing is kinda like why Asians, Africans and Caucasias aren't considered subspecies. Bottom line, scientifically, until someone officially describes these locales as a subspecies with proper supporting evidence (which once again, has yet to be found), you're wrong, I'm sorry you don't like it, time to move on! God help anyone who tries to help you with your knowledge...

Chris

[meow_mix450]

panther dude please dont starrt another agrument here, and chris wasnt agruing in the first place so just chill

Meow

[panther_dude]

using human as a comparison is totally wrong. We all know we evovled from a single species homo erectus. And it would be considered racists and immoral to divide the human races into sub-species. Not the best example. And yes I have taken all the university entrance courses for bio its just been three years since I did so its not as fresh in my mind as I would like it to be.
Sorry I dont have the money to take these courses in university. I'll barely have enough to take my biz courses. Also I was not arguing I am simply trying to understnd what chris is talking about. And now he has finally explained it properly.
Also I'd like to appologize to everyone for my crude behavior. If you guys actually knew me youd understnd why I am like I am. Manly I'm just kinda messed in the head right now and really need a shrink. Not even joking. So again i'm sorry for all the damage I have caused. And would really like to work on getting a bettter relationship with you guys and gals. We really do all need to work together.
So its a promiss right here and now that I will try to control my stupid outbursts.
I think I really need a vacation lol

well peace out gents
please forgive my selfish ways

[latazyo]

sounds good Wade, good luck

but I think that comparing them to humans is a perfect andclear example in this case

[dank7oo]

Sounds good Wade

Just one correction though, homo erectis evolved from homo habilus, which is from what we all evolved :)

Jason

[panther_dude]

yes i know this but homo erectis was the last form of evolution, but this has nothing to do with chameleons so its all good.
And just to state that not knowing wheather a chameleon is a sub-species or a local does not mean that you cannot breed the animals. This is just getting into specifics about the animal has nothing really to do with husbandry am I not correct?

Oh yes thank you for not making fun of my mental state. I will really try and get better. My biz really depends on it. I know no one would want to deal with me with the attitude I have now. I know I wouldn't. Thats probably the hardest thing seeing yourself doing these things but not being able to control it.

[Chris_Anderson]

Wade,

Maybe I missed it but I didn't see anyone making fun of your "mental state."

Anyway, I think the comparison to humans is actually quite appropriate in the case of F. pardalis locales. All humans originated from the same ancestoral species/genetic state. All panther chameleons originated from the same ancestoral species/genetic state. Over evolutionary time, both humans and the panther chameleon evolved to adapt to local conditions, thus leading to a change in the gene frequencies for certain phenotypic traits. With humans, we now see Asian, Caucasian and African (among other) phenotypes and in panther chameleons, we see Nosy Be, Ambanja, Amkaramy, etc., phenotypes. In both cases, the different phenotypes are representative of the same species, simply a divergence of adaptive traits. Now, the gray area is when this divergence and change in gene frequencies becomes significant enough to make the transition from distinct population segments to subspecies and then to species status. The more traditional approach is to examine these populations for significant morphological variation. With chameleons, this is often done with hemipenal and lung morphology. Recently, more work is being done with phylogenetics. This approach has a wide range of uses. It basically allows researchers to determine the relationship of speciemens or groups of specimens to eachother. From as small of a group as a family to as large as full taxa, similar groupings can be compared. Once again, we encounter the question of when do these relationships to eachother become significant enough to constitute reclassification. Another thing about phylogenetics and cladistics that is nice is that it can incorperate genetic and morphological variation. Using cladistics, studies have been done on the F. pardalis locales looking at their relationship to eachother (based on color display). It has shown interesting relationships that generally have pointed to the northern locales like Diego Suarez as being an intermediate (not necissarily oldest known form) color form with east and west coast species being closer related to themselves. At this point, however, neither human nor F. pardalis variation has shown itself to be significant enough to taxonomists to warrent reclassification.

As for your other question, it is my opinion that inorder to correctly provide and work with these animals, a deep understanding of their natural history, in addition to their captive care, is of absolute necessity.

Chris

[panther_dude]

yes it may be nessasary in your mind. But not understanding there natural history is, is not going to stop me from breeding my two chameleons. They arent going to say "Hey udont know enough about our history so we wont mate for you."????
I dont think so. Now if your going to be doing a research paper as I know you have done then yes you should know these things. Plus if your going to be selling these animals maybe but not nessasarliy. In my mind yes I would love to know everything about them before I start selling them. But as of right now they havent even bred yet so I have a year to study and your just making it that much easier. Being someone who has had the chance to do research on these Nosy be's. I geusse its a good thing your on here eh chris.

[Chris_Anderson]

I would never purchase a locality specific animal from someone who didn't know what it was they were guaranteeing me. If someone is serious enough to take the care to ensure that type of purity and accuracy I'd want from a breeder, they'd have a pretty good grip on basic natural history of the animals they are working with.

Chris

[panther_dude]

Yes chris but your also studying to be a herptologist. There are meny people out there that dont even know what a sub species or a locality is. Now obviously im not going to be selling to people who dont have the right information for the specific species im selling them. Just so we dont get that confussed.
But hey I geusse now I know so I dont see any problemes. Can't learn everything all at once. And never have I said I know everything, as I know some of you think that I think I do. lol.
Ive only done some real hard studying on 7 or 8 out of 200 something species. But man would I love to know everything bout all of them.lol.

[panther_dude]

Yes chris but your also studying to be a herptologist. There are meny people out there that dont even know what a sub species or a locality is. Now obviously im not going to be selling to people who dont have the right information for the specific species im selling them. Just so we dont get that confussed.
But hey I geusse now I know so I dont see any problemes. Can't learn everything all at once. And never have I said I know everything, as I know some of you think that I think I do. lol.
Ive only done some real hard studying on 7 or 8 out of 200 something species. But man would I love to know everything bout all of them.lol.

Oh yes I was being real when I said thanks for not making fun.