Lizzie's story: my choice to euthanise

[ChristinaM]

It was quick, I would like to believe she didn't suffer, and I was able to euthanize her myself. She was gone within 20 seconds, and believe me I know because I was counting :(

Lizzie was a 3yr old, German giant female dragon.
She has produced 2 clutches of eggs for me this season.

Months ago, I believe I posted about it too, Lizzie became extremely aggressive. Biting at her cagemates both male and female. Causing open wounds. I took it as she wanted to be by herself...consulted my vet and he agreed.

So I caged her by herself.

But she would bath with the others, and be fine with it. So I started short interactions with her and the others.

Not long after, she was doing great, I left her in the enclosure with the others for a period of 2hrs while I ran to town. Didn't think twice as she was showing no signs of aggression for a while.

Came home to find one of my other dragons tail, crushed. Said tail had to be amputated. Lizzie went back to being on her own.

Same thing...she'd bath with the others, and only spend minimal time with the others.

Today, I was cleaning cages.

Stupidly, but innocently, I thought Lizzie would be fine in with the others for a brief moment. There was food in there, water, ample room.

The moment I put my hand with Lizzie in that enclosure, she lept off of my hand, and grabbed ahold of another dragon. Ironically, the same dragon ( female ) whose tail was amputated. My hand was still in there and I grabbed lizzie by the sides of her head and put pressure on the sides hoping to open her jaw. No way. I had to get my other hand in there and literally pry her jaws apart.

I put her back in her enclosure, and tended to Kiyomi's crushed lower leg/foot.

Came back to Lizzie, who was attempting to eat her own foot. :((((((

Called vet, then sent SOS online.....
Vet agreed that it sounded like something snapped in her and euthanasia was the only choice.

Through multiple responses, I found what I believe to be equal - almost as humane as vet induced euthanising.

RIP my sweet little girl. My poor sweet baby. I do not know, nor will I ever know, what happened to her.
This is the darling I took to reptile shows with me, perched upon my chest with no leash. She was a big girl, sweet girl....she would not move, 'less we passed the feeder table :)

I'm open to any idea's of what may have happened to Lizzie....why she "snapped", and am willing to answer questions.

But I beg of you, please do not insult, harass, or judge me for my decision. You may not agree and I respect that. But please, do not start personal attacks and flaming. especially during this time of loss. I mean come on, you may not agree, but no need to be a sadist in a persons rough time. The decision to euthanise does not come easy to any.

RIP my sweet baby.
Christina

[fourtreefrogs]

I'm sorry to hear about your dragon. It's so hard to let a pet go no matter what the circumstances. :( *tear*

[DragnDrop]

I'm sorry you had to make that choice, Christina. However, I also want to say that it's a hard decision, and I think you made the right one.

[klein]

I'm sorry to hear about Lizzie. Glad you made the best decision for yourself and the dragon.

[Kimo]

Just out of curiosity, Was the dragon ever aggressive to you? and if not, why would you put it down? you'll have to excuse me if i sound just a tad bit harsh, but putting it back in the cages with the other dragons, when you knew it had a history of attacking them (regardless of the fact it hadn't shown any aggression lately) was your own fault and carlessness, I'm just baffled why the Dragon had to suffer? if you couldn't keep it, did you try finding perhaps an adoption home for it? Euthansia is a Last resort in my opinion And deffinately not to be used an animal because it's a lil "wild"

However, I'd still like to extend my condolences to you on your loss, and hope none of your other dragons have to suffer the same fate! Good Luck in the Future!

Kimo

[Melly18]

I'm a bit confused also as to why you would have put her back with the others knowing her history with them :S Either way it sucks that you had to put her down! I don't think i would have been able to do that. It does seem that you did seek for help and advice from other people including vets, which was great. If you think you made the right decision then that's the important thing. My condolences to you :( It's ashamed that she had to be euthanised (spelling??) and I hope you won't have to go through that again.

[dave68]

*** edited ~ DragnDrop

[marisa]

I am also equally confused as to why you had to put her down for aggresiveness???? We are lucky some reptiles are "Tame" but they are hard wired for aggresive behaviours to keep them alive in the wild. The MOST we can expect from them is living together with another happily and not biting us. But at the very least could she have not lived alone forever?

But I can see SOMETHING went wrong when you say she was eating her own foot???? I am somewhat confused there so maybe some more explanation. Sorry you had to put her down.

Marisa

[ChristinaM]

ok, yep, I could have let her live.
When do I make the choice to euthanise?
After she has eaten her own foot?

My own carelessness?
She had been having short interactions with the others and been fine.
History stated she'd be fine for a few moments.
I had not even let my hand low into the cage before she lept and chomped on my other dragon.

Carelessness yes I could see. IF.....I had just dropped her in the tank and ran out of the room.

Had she actually been in the tank, my eyes would have been on her and she would have been removed.

Dave.... I am going to bite my tounge on this one. Just goes to show what kind of person you are. Geez.....sure hope I'm around when you lose a member of your family.

at least the others had the decency to inquire, not be rude and ignorant. I said I was more than willing to answer questions, and open to any idea's as to why Lizzie snapped.

Stay out of the fire?
I posted in hopes of some answers, as well as to show others that not all dragons can live together, etc. etc. and hopefully let others learn.

Marissa, yes, if it were not for this incident, she would have lived fine alone. She had a nice cage, and was still reletively calm. But....when munching your own leg that is where my choice came in. I pulled her mouth from her leg, only to have her go back to it.

Kimo, Lizzie was not a "lil wild". My iguana however is. Why should I home an ill dragon elsewhere? Nowhere did I say I could not keep her. nowhere. To assume I killed her because I could not keep her is a load of poo, and much furthur from the truth that imaginable. Yes she has bitten me, when I pried her jaws from the other dragon.
hope none of your other dragons have to suffer the same fate!
as do I. But I can guarentee, I will do what needs doing IF it should ever happen again. I will pray it doesn't though.

My vet agreed on euthanising. I didn't just grab and whack my dragon :( He knew of Lizzie's history, and has seen her about a dozen times. I trust his judgement.

I'm hoping this explains more to it, than I first wrote.

If anything, I figured I'd be flamed for euthanising at home instead of having my vet do it.

Funny.
If a dog did this. Bit another dog, then bit the person who had to pry its mouth off the other dog, then proceeded to eat it's own leg, that dog would be put down without a second thought.

[capsicum]

Christina, I haev worked in animal recue for many years, and I do know how hard it was to make that decision. Regardless of what others say, it was your decision, and you alone have to live with it (not others who pass judgement). Personally I feel that you made an informed and correct decision. Very sorry that you were put into that situation, but I am sure she is in a better place :)

TK

[dave68]

Christina, you have no idea what kind of person i am. I am the kind of person that loves and respects my animals and would not even consider euthanizing one because it didn't get along with other cagemates. Come on you even had Lizzie set up by herself already, why couldn't you be happy with her being the individual pet she seems to have wanted to be. This was far from being a personal attack, this kind of thing really hits me hard and THATS THE KIND OF PERSON I AM! As for my "family members" they are all heathy and happy.

Dave

[ChristinaM]

Dave, I'm going to take this off this post and into private communication, ok?

edit: changed my mind as I was able to be more mature than I thought and I'm always up for a debate.

Dave, your choice
to read or not.

Frankly your first post pissed me off beyond belief. You have no idea the kind of person I am, and didn't take the time to ask the questions that the others did before immaturely flaming. ( I'm talking as an adult, NOT personally attacking you, just communicating ). Your response was rude ( IMO ) and very very uncalled for.

We are all passionate about something.
I happen to be passionate about similiar values as you.I love and respect each and every one of my family ( including pets, people, etc ).

I had a choice to make. Key note being my VET agreed she needed to be euthanised. I thank the lord that I was able to do that and not someone she didn't "love".

She was not put down because she bit the other dragon.
She was not put down because she is a solitary dragon.

She was put down because she bit the other dragon, then proceeded to chomp me, then herself. She was put down because something "snapped" in her, that caused her to ( for lack of better termanology ) to go insane.

Yes, I could have avoided putting her in the other cage.....BUT!!!! as history went, she was fine for short term in with the others. How was I to know that this would happen? I am not psychic, not able to see into her head and know.

Would she have snapped if I hadn't put her in, I will never know. Do you think I feel good about this? Do you think I enjoyed what I had to do? You are sadly very mistaken if you think that. Heck, I have a hard enough time whacking feeders for my snakes, and bawl my girly eyes out when I don't succeed with first blow.

What should I have done? Put her in dragon restraints to stop her from biting herself? Ignore a qualified vet's advice that she be put down?

I don't think so.

I think I did the right thing. Others may not agree and I respect that. I respect differing views. I do NOT respect others who flame people without asking what needs to be asked, turning things into personal attack.

how is
I"m sorry that the poor girl was killed but not for your loss.

not a personal attack?
IMHO, that was very rude, uncalled for, disgusting, and much more.

Do you really think I made the decision lightly?

I did NOT grab the dragon and kill her.
I isolated her, watched her chew on her own foot, removed said foot from mouth, called vet, got his opinion, SOS'd on how to HUMANELY euthanise, came back to my baby who was chewing her leg again.

With how strong her jaws are, I would not be surprized if her leg was crushed where she was chewing. Would you like for me to look and take pics for you? Would that make you happy? Her body is in my freezer awaiting a proper burial in one of my gardens. I was not going to have a funeral on my daughters birthday thank you very much.

As I said above....

I expected flames to fly over me home euthanising instead of vet induced. And that, was indeed my choice. One that I feel I did right. I would rather her die at my hands that some "stranger".

I did not expect anything like your post Dave. Not at all. The rudeness, immaturity and insensitivity made me sick. I've seen your posts, frankly you seem to be above that childishness. Surprised, yes. But I'm over it.

If you wish to turn this into another personal attack, shoot. But be mature about it and harass me via PM or email ( cmarvin at linkd.net ), instead of crowding the boards with personal attacks/insults/whatever. Ok?

If you want to discuss things calmly, please don't hesitate.

[lostwithin]

Dave, although I normally would avoid this sort of conversation too avoid the conflict that will follow, I have too say I’m quite disgusted in your response, her first post Clearly stated the dragon had become self-destructive.
As for replacing it a few times with the other dragons, I myself would have done the same in an attempt too re-integrate it, although I would have done it in a time where I could be present watching for the whole day that’s just something I have learned through experience. Some times animals will turn mean for a short period of time and then snap out of it.
There were MANY people who questioned the enthusing of the animal but if you’ll notice no one responded as you did. I have a few choice words for people like you, but I will also bite my tongue.

ChristinaM , I'm very sorry for your loss, but some times its the best choice especially when an animal has turned self destructive it would only have suffered. Also I am VERY impressed you bit your tongue after dave's first comment. That shows incredible character I don’t think I would have even done that myself.

Devon

[Snow]

Start this off with sorry for your loss, definitly doesnt seem like somthing easy to do, and i feel strongly you did the right thing, weather a dog, cat, reptial or goldish started to act in this manor i think it should all be treated the same, if a human started to eat his own foot id say yah do the same, but im normaly just as cold blooded as my beardy.

Dave, i think your opinions on this issue need some thought on your part, dont see how you felt so strongly to write such comments, and i beleave if your love was so strong with your animals then you should do the same thing, or would u let it suffer, the animal wasent right and it went to meaasures that got bad.

Just my thoughts, my sadness for your pet, and my inproper spelling and grahmer.

[drewlowe]

Chris, I'm very sorry for your loss, and don't let the "fire" get to you.

Sometimes we have to make hard decisions like that, some people will understand and some won't. Unless they have seen/had an animal that you have to question yourself wether to euthinize or not, they just won't understand that VERY hard decision.

Personally i would have probly done the same thing as you after seeing her attack herself. Next thing you'll see is someone telling you to make a "cone" (the things they put around cat and dogs heads) to stop her from bitting her self (which i highly doubt would work for a beardy).

Jamie

[concept3]

Hard choice, Ive been their not with a beardie but a dog. It sucks, You obviosly made the right choice, dont ever question that, If any other animal did the same thing, that is the appropriate way do do it, If it happened in the wild It would die, If it happened to a human they tie him to a bed in a padded room, I would rather die, euthanize me if that happens to me please! good luck sorry for your loss

[Linds]

My condolences :( It's hard to lose someone, let alone if you have to 'pull the plug' yourself. I have to admit, I was beginning to be quite appauled, as up until the end it seemed you were putting her down for sheer aggression towards other animals, but I do believe you made the right choice, if it matters at all. If an animal is no longer able to live a sound life, then it is better off not having to live through the pain. I've never heard of such a thing ocurring in reptiles before (mammals such as skunks and cougars, I have), I wonder what exactly was the cause of it. How old was she?

[ICULIZARD]

Christina,

What vet have you been dealing with? He didn't ask to see her when you described what she was doing to see if he could find a possible explanation? I have only known one dragon that chewed on it's foot, and this was after it had been bitten by another dragon and already bleeding. The dragon is missing a couple of toes but is fine today. I just feel that there must have been a medical explanation and that is the vet saw her, he may have been able to properly diagnose the dragon and fix the problem. I am not trying to make you feel worse, I know you feel horrible about it.

You know me.....I usually do not hide what I feel and speak my opinions. On that note: Personally I would not choose to put down one of our breeders at home if it had to be done. The vet will allow you to be there when she is put down and I'll have to admit that is what I would want for any of our dragons. I wouldn't be able to have it done without me there. It costs more, but it is painless and immediate for the animal.

[ChristinaM]

Linds n' all: I would NEVER put an animal down solely for being aggressive towards others.... My "Larry" thanks that muchly, as the 4ft iggy has biten me seriously twice......my "Sassy" would like nothing better than to get a good CHOMP in ( hog isle boa ). Trust me, an aggressive animal is NOT a reason to euthanise.

Meg, my vet is a local vet and I'm quite happy with him.
Lizzie was not bit whatsoever. Yet she chewed herself. ( When I buried her yesterday, I looked and she had broken the skin and teeth marks apparant ).

I too feel there could have been a medical explaination for her behaviours....However, I do feel quite confident, that said medical issue was terminal. No I'm not a vet, nor a high expert in dragons, but I do know my lizards, the histories etc. as does my vet. Sure I could have broughten her in and subjected her to test after test.....but she showed no signs of letting up on her leg even after I removed it from her mouth :(

I know you aren't trying to make me feel worse, and I respect your opinions very much so. :) Least, you could express your disagreement in a civil/calm manner. Thank you.

All: I think I made several mistakes:
1 big one was posting when upset. Had I been in a more "stable" state, I could have explained more thorough in the first post to save some emotions for those reading.

Two: easily misunderstood wording.

Anyways, what's done is done, no changing it now.
I thank you all for you views, comments, opinions and condolences. Burying Lizzie was the hardest part. Posting about it was the next hardest as I knew I opened myself up to lots of differing opinions. I just wanted people's opinions and to share in hopes that noone else has to go thru anything like this, and if they do, that they can feel comfortable sharing.

Peace.

[ChristinaM]

Lizzie was 3yrs old :(

[Sonic Reality]

Sorry to hear that, thats a tragic thing..
Losing a close beardie is very hard and upsetting..

I know, i lost 2, both at between 1-2 years old, due to heart failure and an abyss(i think thats how its spelt)

Took me weeks to get over them both,crying e.t.c...and if i had had to put them down myself, by any means, i know i couldnt do it..and i can imagine how much it hurts...Dave should have layed off.

[herpslave]

As I do not want to start a problem. Im 50/50 with christina. Many bearded dragon live without feet. Most cases 2. Cage mates sometimes do this to eachother and tails. Because There either hungry, or in a too small enclosure. What was the size of the cage you had all the beardies together in? Im not questoning your intelligence, Im just curious. And howmuch do you feed your beardies everyday? Again not questioning your intelligence. I Myself have beardies very close too me. They are like a cat or dog or even a family member. When i watch t.v, One of them begs to come out and crawl all around me and watch the t.v. (walks around the room, once he escaped while I was asleep and went to sleep on me after pooping on me twice. About the thrashing itself, Was it anything malicious? Like blood dripping or major shreds? If so then most liely you made the right choice.