Opening A Can O Worms

[Optimus Prime]

Now I know this is gonna stir up some uh you know what but I needed to vent. Ok here it is where do people get off telling me how much to chage for my own animals? I am not going to name names but I have seen it happen to friends and now myself. We live in a free society for the most part and our economic system is based on free enterprise where market price is determined by supply and demand. So if I feel like selling my animals at less then market vaule I am free to do so, especially since I am not selling 50 or 60 animals but only 1. Where I am I can not sell my animal at mraket price so unless YOU want to buy it from me at market value don't tell me what to charge.

Also at shows it has happened to a frend of mine who was seeling corns less than everyone else and he got threats thats just bull$hit it's called competative edge and if you can't compete then go home. Thats how are economic systems works everyone competes and who ever has the best product for the least price wins. And as everyone knows the higher the supply the lower the demand and thus price drops!

I know the arguments some of the bigger breeders will throw at me but thier arguments are not valid because it seems like this is the only industry where it happens I mean if I were to sell my 2004 buck for less then market vaule would I get a call from my local GM dealer telling me to raise my price because I'm gonna undercut them I think not. Same with my other job I work for a camera store and we have recently had to drop prices on digital prints to keep up with larger chain like wal-mart but I don't think my company called up wal-mart and said you can't charge that it's not fair!

In my experiance business is never fair and it's eat or be eaten!

I also fully expect to be bashed quite thoroughly but it's all good I mean like I said before free speach and free enterpirse! So lets have at it lemme hear your thoughts?

[leoncurrie]

I said it before and I'll say it again. Keeping and breeding reptiles is no longer about the care and facination of them but rather, "what can I breed and how many babies can I stuff in a container. The more Babies I have.... the more money I can make"! Welcome to the so called "hobbie" of herpetology.

[Optimus Prime]

Exactly, I am selling this animal for personal reason and she just brings back to many memories I'd rather not have so I am willing to let her go cheap.

[leoncurrie]

what is it and how much are you asking?

[Tim_Cranwill]

You're right. You can sell your animals for any price you want. But just as YOU are entitled to do that, people are entitled to not like it... just as you are entitled to post about how you don't like them not liking it...

[Scales Zoo]

I've always thought the price of an animal was completely the sellers decision, and don't beleive or understand many of the arguments I have heard against that train of thought.

Ryan

[Optimus Prime]

Tim I understand people not likeing it but what pisses me off is people sending me personal mails telling me to change the price because they won't like it. I would never have the gall to tell you or anyone else what to charge for your animals and woud expect the same respect from others and if I didn't like your business practices or prices I would just not do business with you not send you imature mails telling you what to do. For me the price is a personal matter and I base it on what the animal is worth to me.

I am in genreal anti-athourity and don't like to be told what to do bye anyone. I was tempeted to lower the price just to spite the person.

leoncurrie - It is a female het for albino boa I am asking $300 for her so yes it is below market but I don't care the reason I am selling her is a very personal matter and not about the money thats why I don't care about price.

[Linds]

The problem also that airses with the price being dropped considerably, especially with larger reptiles, is that it increases the likelyhood of the animal becoming more... for lack of a better word... "disposable" in the eyes of the new keeper. Higher prices help weed out these types of buyers and, sadly enough, help increase the chances of the animal going to a good home where it will be properly taken care of, regardless of what future costs may occur.

[gonesnakee]

IMHO $300 for a het boa is market value, maybe even above. Hets are quickly becoming a dime a dozen. So much so that I personally consider all pos hets & het males to only be worth as much as commons. Folks have to realize that the market on these things has done nothing but drop for years now. I remember the first Albino Boa my buddy bought for $2,500 a few years back. Heck I was buying them at $1,000 each last year, even though SOME PEOPLE seemed to think that $1,500-$2,000 was market value. All depends on who ya know I guess LOL. People have issues with some of my prices too sometimes (never the customers though LOL) but like I really give a Rats @ss. To each their own & if they don't like it too bad, such is life. A lot of people seem to think that even common boas should never go for less than $100 or even $90 at the lowest WHOLESALE ya right, tell that to the guy sitting on 100 of them. I myself just flipped a bunch for buddy at $75 each & know of wholesale deals of $50 each etc. Breeding Herps is by no means a steady income & the market can change quite a bit in a few years. Another example is say Vietnamese Blue Beauties. 2 years ago $200-$250 each, now $100-$125 each (even last year). look at the whole Albino BP thing & the prices there, big difference in the last 2 years. Big enough to me to sell off all mine at loss/break even prices. I won't even get into what it has done to the price of commons. I took care of them for a couple years for nothing, that is if you consider things only in monetary values. When I got them less than 2 years ago 100% het pairs were like $2,000, now they are like $1,000 - $1,200 & soon to be much less just like the albino boa market. Irreguardless of the market, screw everyone & do what ya want as the choice is yours to do so. If I wanted to be told what to do & how to do it, I'd go back to working for "the man", not if I can help it LOL Do as ya please, but remember ya have to live with your choices & their results. I personally don't think 1 persons lower prices on an animal or 2 will affect anything market wise, but what do I know Heh Heh Mark

[Katt]

Good job guys for telling it like it is!

[mykee]

I agree that you selling one or two animals for lower than market price isn't going to collapse the market. However, Mark, if you're going to sell many animals, you have to take into consideration your reputation. Hypothetically, I have 20.20 het albino balls, am relatively new and hoping to 'break' into the snake business here in Canada. I know that 'market value' this year has been set at $900-$1100/pair. If I sell these 20.20 for $700/pair, not only am a potentially 'losing' $200-$400/pair, but I'm also not making any friends or gaining the respect from my 'associates' in the business, and your reputation is everything.

[Derrick]

your rep would be pretty good with the customers mykee:D.

[leoncurrie]

Originally posted by mykee
Hypothetically, I have 20.20 het albino balls, am relatively new and hoping to 'break' into the snake business here in Canada. I know that 'market value' this year has been set at $900-$1100/pair. If I sell these 20.20 for $700/pair, not only am a potentially 'losing' $200-$400/pair, but I'm also not making any friends or gaining the respect from my 'associates' in the business, and your reputation is everything.

Thanks for pointing that a dollar value is more important to you then the actual animal.

Hey O.P.,
You say that you have been receiving personal mails about your price? You should post these so everyone can have an idea of who is in this hobby, just looking to make as much money as they can and couldn't care less about the reptiles.

[gonesnakee]

Exactly mykee, but are you willing to sit on them for months & months to try & get those higher prices, only to have to reduce them later at the cheaper price anyway? In reguards to the whole hets thing if you aren't in at the "ground level" you have already missed the boat. Sometimes to succeed you have to be willing to "rock the boat" some IMHO. Also you must realize that with the exchange rate & all the people working with hets, the market is flooded right now. Most herpers have bills to pay & would rather have cash in hand then 40 snakes to take care of for a few extra months to try & milk them for all they are worth. Most peoples prices drop dramatically when they have bills to pay & you have cash in hand. Fact of life. Heck I know of a breeder that GIVES het males for FREE. Same price on a lone female as a pair & singles males for like $100. If my reputation is based on others greed? &/or unwillingness to accept the market for what it is, instead of providing the best quality animals at the lowest prices possible, as stated like I give a Rats @ss as the quality of my animals speaks for themself & I charge what I consider to be reasonable. I would much rather be known as the guy that has quality specimens at good prices then the guy sitting on them for months & months because he refuses to accept things for what they are. I don't go out of my way to undercut people, but one must review the market & remain competitive if you want to survive as a herp person in the Canadian Market just my opinion though. Mark
P.S. some US breeders can provide albinos now for like $2,000 CDN I betcha the people that bought ones for $5,000 CDN less than 2 years ago really like that alot eh! Remember this is not going to change other than to go lower & lower.
P.P.S. pricelists change dramatically when breeders need money & you have cash in hand, like the song says "Money Talks!"

[Optimus Prime]

I agree with gonesnakee I have gotten great deals cuz the seller was motivated. My motivation here has nothing to do with money or the need for it, my decisions to sell this snake are more emotional yes yes I have them :P just hide them well.

On a side note base my decisions on quality and price not what the competetion says about some one I preffer to make up my own mind.

Leon I am most deffinatly not going to name names that is not right!

[karmeleon]

I totally agree that we should set prices for our animals for what we want. i have received the same slack in the past for selling animals under "market value". it's ridiculous.

[adamofsound]

way to take the high road and not name names. That in itself speaks volumes for reputation.

[Simon]

LOL
Oh Darryl I definitely hear you~
I know how that feels~
I mean I produce so many animals each year that even though I have 6 wholesalers....I don't really get rid of everything. Even wholesalers themselves have a limit on how many animals they can take in at a time....and when I need to move animals out, I really do mean moving them out. If the market in Canada is like the States, then removing 1000 corns nearly as hard or as bad for me. But the market in Canada is so bad that I really need to wholesale them. Once all the wholesaler has taken the max amount that they can take, and I am still left with 300 corns running around my house still waiting to be sold out...I need to sell them at wholesale price to the public.

I understand that this definitely ruins the price a bit. But if you stand on the person that is holding the 300 animsl to be sold, you'll understand.

Even hi end animals are hard to get out to the market. You would think that selling them out at a lower price would get things going, but the market here in Canada is so bad that even if you lower the price for hi end morphs, its hard getting them out.

All in all, I do agree that everyone can set his/her own price. There is NO RIGHT for anyone to be so rude to tell the other person to either set his prices higher or lower. Its not their problem! NOT AT ALL!

[gonesnakee]

Something else to point out in reguards to say an Eastern CDN Breeder vs a Western CDN Breeder is that the East has a much larger concentrated population then the west therefore also a much larger market or should have anyway. M.I.
P.S. its good to see you post too Simon as you are a much larger breeder than myself & speak from even more experience.

[Invictus]

I personally don't give a damn if person A wants to sell their stuff for less than what I'm selling them for. The way I see it is, I do my best to collect and breed the most superior specimens I can get my hands on. If someone wants to sell common boas for $50, fine. Mine will still be at or slightly above market value if mine are nicer looking, cleaner patterned, higher pink, or whatever. (Not that I breed them right now, but I have the adults ready for next season.)

What bugs the hell out of me is people jacking UP their prices just because of who they are. This is egotsitcal horses**t in my opinion, and the way I see it is, if you want to jack up your prices, it better be the best specimen on earth, or I'll buy an equal or BETTER specimen for a lower price somewhere else, even if it means ordering in from south of the border. That's just my opinion. Bottom line, market value should be taken into consideration. But so should superiority of specimens, and/or motivated sellers. :)

[thunder]

simon: i am by no means trying to be rude, but perhaps you are overproducing? i mean, maybe you shouldnt produce more animals than you think you can move.

[gonesnakee]

"overproducing?" another good point, notso much with Corns but the whole het BP thing totally. Everyone is striving to produce those one or 2 albinos, but there are all the commons, pos het & hets to consider marketing also & that is on top of all the farmed & wildcaughts imported by the 1000's+ yearly. Mark

[mykee]

"Thanks for pointing out that a dollar value is more important to you then the actual animal."
Ok Leon, so with your reasoning, I should hold on to everything, have a couple hundred snakes just sorta sitting around? What you fail to comprehend is that for most of us in the "hobby" that sell our offspring we do so so that we can purchase and work with the animals that we want, fueling our love for the animals. Where's the law against loving the 'hobby' and makin' a little coin? For example, if I breed my pastel to 20 normal females, and get 30 pastels, you're saying I should have some deep-rooted emotional attachment to all of them and not even consider selling them. Hogwash. I'll sell my males and a few females so that I can buy the next whatever that I'm interested in and would love to work with. We finance our own projects by selling selected offspring. It is no less a hobby for someone who owns 100 snakes, breeds and sells their offspring then the guy who owns 1 snake and has no desire to breed. It's still a hobby regardless. I do agree with Ken however in that I could care less who you are as a breeder, it's your product that should talk for you rather than your "Name". If you produce a poorer quality animal, it's not long before your name is crap anyways. These things have a way of working themselves out. In my opinion, a lot of the big breeders out there have a great name because their product is top-notch. Again, it's all about reputation.

[mykee]

"I would much rather be known as the guy that has quality specimens at good prices then the guy sitting on them for months & months because he refuses to accept things for what they are."
Mark, if you're stuck sitting on things for months and months, you're not watching and in touch with the "market". You don't have to undercut the next guy by X% to sell your animals, but if you're "holding on the them for months and months" then you're overpriced. I think it's all about keeping you ear to the ground and knowing your market. Remaining competitive doesn't mean undercutting the competition. Canada's 'snake market' is miniscule compared to south of the border, ("10 years behind" was what one U.S. 'big breeder' whom I spoke with recently quoted). However the Canadian market is growing by leaps and bounds. From what I've noticed over the last few years, is that all of the 'lower end' het morphs and morphs are getting snatched up and 'new' breeders are coming out of the woodwork at an awesome pace. Just look at the great stuff coming from Kwok, Patterson, Stockwell, Piorun, Woods, Mandic, Marshall, Favelle, etc. (please accept my apologies for forgetting anyone) This is great! For the first time ever, Canadians are becoming a force to be reconed with. With this 'newfound respect' afforded Canadian breeders from the States, Canadian breeders are no longer pricing animals strictly for Canadians, now they have to consider the U.S. prices, and potential U.S. buyers. So I pose this question; are prices too high here in Canada, or are Canadians just too cheap? This topic has come up recently, and now that Canadian breeders are sending their animals south, prices become more competitive 'up here'. Can we keep up as buyers? Sorry to take this off-topic, but it all rings true.

[Optimus Prime]

Yes but to get new morphs you sometimes have to over produce, and you were the friend I was talking about at the beginning Simon cuz I know you get a hard time when you put your stuff on sale. I can vouch for Simon that he loves his animals each and every one of them, and he only breeds as much as he does to accomplish is breeding goals.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I agree with Mykee. Every year there's a crop of new herpers that come out of the woodwork. Its awesome!

And like Mykee alluded to, it works in levels. As soon as the newbees get on their game and start having clutches of corns and Leos and whatever, then all of a sudden, they have a few hundred dollars to play with. So then they get some entry-level boas or pythons or maybe an expensive colubrid with that extra cake. Then, when it comes time to breed those things, they make a few more extra dollars, and all of a sudden, a $2,000 animal purchase isn't out of the question. Its truly awesome when a herper like Crannie or Trev (Boidkeeper) breeds something, then flips the whole damn thing right back into more snakes. That's why they have the impressive collections they have.

And everyone could do it. Its not unattainable for anyone. And selling animals for what you want is not "being in it for the money". Not that anyone should care what anyone else says or thinks why you are into snakes. Let them believe what they want Mykee. If it keeps them up at night thinking you just do this for the hoards and hoards of cashola we keep in our closets, then too bad. Ha ha. You ROCK Mykee.

Optimus, you are a stand-up guy, and I've known you for over a year through our thousands of emails and phone calls. One snake will NOT kill the market. LOL, not even in Canada (haha!!). If you need to sell a snake, then you gotta do what you gotta do. No one else lives your life or is in your shoes. If someone feels so strongly about you selling an animal for less, then they should buy it from you, and then re-sell it at the "market price" and make a few bucks. Don't fret about people's opinion other than close friends or family. They are really the only people I ever listen to, and even then, sometimes not!! Ha ha, remember all the people raggin' on me because they said my Jungles were too expensive? Well 158 Jungles to start with, and I have 37 left. I'm keeping a WACKLOAD of those ones back, and I have 6 going out by Saturday. Am I worried about what other people think about MY animals? Nope. Watering and feeding and watching 'til my hearts content is my only concern when it comes the animals in my reptile rooms.

Cheers bro. And call me, I'm home.:D

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
If someone feels so strongly about you selling an animal for less, then they should buy it from you, and then re-sell it at the "market price" and make a few bucks.

Exactly, and that is just what I said to the only person who ever bitched about me offering a deal on any snake. Either buy it or shut up!

But, Jeff, I mean, I gotta say...you keep throwing around the term newbie as if you've been keeping Jungle carpet pythons longer than most people on these forums. It's like you are trying to keep people from selling snakes for less, so they aren't considered newbies.

Why would you care, the mass public will want to pay to get it from a certain breeder, I mean, you kinda prove that. So be glad it works that way, I guess i'm saying.

Ryan

[Simon]

Originally posted by thunder
simon: i am by no means trying to be rude, but perhaps you are overproducing? i mean, maybe you shouldnt produce more animals than you think you can move.

Thunder,
First of all not trying to say that you're rude or anything. Cause I understand your point too. So the reply is in no way referring back to you. Just replying your statement alright?

Ha~
I knew this was going to come up.
But hey when you're working with hets, you cannont gurantee anything. Only higher production will lead to a greater chance of getting the hi end stuff that you want.

Why are people buying all these hets? Well its because they're cheaper and they might yeild hi end stuff over the years. So you start off with hets. How to you ensure yourself to get as high of a chance of getting the hi end morph that you were waiting for 2 years or more? Well you mass breed them in order to produce this hi end stuff.

Also the word 'over producing' would mean that I cannot provide the time and care for my animals and letting them starve to death or dehydrate to death. (At least this is my view on over producing.) But if I can get them out fast and provide them with a good home. I don't see a problem with that.

Also sometimes when a person really needs to get the animal out, selling under market value makes the animal out go faster. Like Darryl's case here (which actually started this thread) He wanted his animal out of his doors asap. He might be selling the animal at under market value, but at the same time he too is losing money. The amount of time and money that he spend on tha animal, its a lost to him. He most properly got his animal at 'market value' and when he is selling his animal at 'under market value' he is losing money. Heck even if he was to sell his animal at the 'market value' of the time he purchased the snake, he still is losing money. The feeding and caring and time spend money. So he too is 'suffering' the loss.

I am not saying that under cutting the market price is right or wrong. Cause myself as a breeder, I do feel that its a shame that other people undersell animals at market price. But other people have their own rights to do whatever they want. I mean I sell Lavender Corns for $250 each. I have seen some Canaidan people sell them for less than $125. What am I suppose to do? Lower my price or shoot the person an email and tell them to jack up his/her price? I don't think so. Like I said before, every one has his/her own market share and has the 'power' to choose whatever price he/she thinks its right. I sometimes don't feel happy when I see other people have a way low market price and is ruining the market price too. But that's life. There is no way that you're able to control everyone and make an equalibrium market price.

Mykee,

Originally posted by mykee
Mark, if you're stuck sitting on things for months and months, you're not watching and in touch with the "market". You don't have to undercut the next guy by X% to sell your animals, but if you're "holding on the them for months and months" then you're overpriced. I think it's all about keeping you ear to the ground and knowing your market


I don't really agree with this. Sometimes its not because that we're over pricing the animals, thus not being able to move the animals out. Sometimes its just that there are really no demand. I just had a friend that emailed me today and told me that he posted his ad up for a long time now and has had 0 email and 0 pm about the animals that he is selling. And I tell you, the price that he was asking was not over priced at all. In fact its a bit on the low end too (not like super low) So sometimes, I think a lot of times, its the demand that is driving us to hold our animals for longer than we expect. Not really the price.

Darryl,

Thanks for the kind words. I fully understand your point. Heck I feel both points as I am both a breeder and had to do an under cut in market price before. So I see both points~
But really you do what you want. Just sell the animal at what you want. Its only 1 animal anyway.

Most of my prices are higher than the normal Canadian market price too. So should I be sending emails to everyone and tell them to boost their price up? LOL....even though my prices are higher than most people, if you ask me I still say that I am moving a lot of hi end stuff around. So far for this year, I have produced 500 hatchling corns already...and guess how many I have left right now? Around 50.....I might have wholesaled 300 of them but the other 150 are already gone with retail pricing.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Well-thought out and informative post (as usual) Simon. If I were in the market for a corn, I would contact you FIRST, regardless of price. Some people search for the best deals, some people search for the breeder closest to them (shipping scares them), and some people, just go to the breeder who's stock and reputation supercede them. I'm the latter. If I want a Ball, I go to Corey or Mark. If I want an Aussie python, I walk down the steet to Don's house. If a boa is in my future, I call the King, Chris Marshell. If I want Hondurans, I call Marc Bouchard. If I want corns, I email Simon. If I want monitors, I'll call Kendrick. Its that simple in my world. Simon's corns and his service justify his higher price. Just like Mykee, who has posted superb pics of his growing Ball collection. Mykee can easily get market value for his stuff. I don't see him sitting on animals for long at all.

I even get emails from people asking if I could sell an animal for a bit cheaper. Sometimes I do it if they are buying multiple animals, but what I usually do is just give them an email of a friend who is also selling the same thing! LOL! I ain't worried about getting rid of stock. Its harder to keep up with the orders than it is to worry about keeping a few dozen animals into the wee hours of October and November.

Optimus, don't sweat it bro. Selling an animal for 10-20% under market value isn't going to kill anyone. Its not like its two litters of 30 hets and you're going to kill the market. The market, as small as it is up here, will be just fine.

Good suff peeps! Mostly well thought-out and informative posts!! :D

[gonesnakee]

Mykee, thats exactly what I am saying. I don't sit on animals for months & months. I research the market & sell accordingly. Many don't though. Whatever they are selling went for X last year so that is the price this year. I see these people trying to market the previous years stock as "holdbacks" & such when it is quite obvious by the looks/price why they are still available. As stated there are many more people working with many more animals now & alot of specimens are more readily available than ever. Its supply & demand, plain & simple. More specimens readily available in the market, the prices on those now less rare specimens adjusts itself accordingly. Example Childrens Pythons, a year or so ago $175-150, last season $150-125, this season $125-100. As more & more people work with this species & more & more are produced every year the price will drop based on supply & demand. The supply is increasing, but will the demand still be there. Its obviously been affected. Some people still refuse to adjust & are charging the same rates as 3 years ago & frown upon those that have adjusted & are selling their animals while they sit on their higher priced ones someimes at the next table at a venue. I call it adjusting they say undercut, but like I care what they say LOL. I don't like it either, but can & will adjust. We all hate to see the babies we paid so much for, now breeding to sell their offspring for considerably less than orginally planned 3 years prior, such is life sometimes. I too totally back the reinvest the money in herps thing. I sold/traded a whack of Cornsnakes to buy my Womas, Diamond etc. I'll Tell You What! LOL We all have to draw a line somewheres & we all have a responsibility to plan accordingly to market offspring. I get a few calls every year with people wanting me to buy them out, whether it be their offspring or all their breeding stock as a result of their lack of planning/marketing. The strong shall survive Heh Heh Cheers Mark
P.S. as stated population definitely helps demand & theres alot more population down south thats for sure.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Great post Mark! Totally. If breeders don't adapt, they get left in the dust.


On a crappy note, its gonna suck having to sell Womas for $500 each when we finally get to breed them eh? ha ha,!!

Except yours will probably go before mine so I'll get like $400 each. Dammit. LOL!!

[anaconda]

Seems like the only way to sell reptiles on this site is to under price them! In my experience I have found that nobody is willing to pay what they are really worth. It is a very sad situation that everybody is interested in your animals but they say they are "just out of their price range". That's been my experience, I hope it is not a trend for the reptile industry in Canada. Burmese pythons should surely be worth more than $50 as an example. Otherwise why even bother breeding them!

[mykee]

Anaconda, you breed them because you love them. You have to. If you breed solely for the $, you're gone quick because for the most part, the money ain't that great unless you're a Mandic, a Woods, a Marshall, etc. (again), and even then, I'm guessing 50%+ of their profit goes right back into the animals. If it was about the $, you'd see the same animals for sale year after year after year. That's not the case; new morphs, cutting edge stuff every successive year. It's pretty obvious to me at least who here breeds for the love of it and who breeds for the $$. For example, just by his responses, you can tell Favelle has a passion for what he does. There are plenty others here who love what they do. It's not always about the money. Here's an example; I bought a male albino a couple of years back for $5500. Overpriced at the time, but from the stock and breeder I got it from, I was happy to pay that price. Quite honestly, I don't think he will ever be worth anyhwere near that again, and his albino offspring will be worth 1/2 of what I payed for him. Not gonna stop me from buying the morphs I want. I don't sit up at night crying about it. I realize that demand every year goes up, as does supply. Hell, in 10 years the pastels that everyone is breeding will be worth $500. I see that as a good thing. For every five people that are willing to pay $2500 for a female pastel, there are 50 people willing to pay $2000 and so on until the 'market' that you are selling to has multiplied exponentially to the point where a 'recreational hobbyist' will have one.

[Derrick]

wooohooo when are those 400$ womas comin out Jeff?:D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha hopefully not until 2010 Derribk ol' boy! ;)

I whole-heartedly agree Mykee. If you don't love working with them, breeding snakes (ie cleaning up snake poop) will quickly become the worst job you've ever had. Go to school and get a good job if its solely the money you're after. If you love animals, and you want to be your own boss, and you like life to be a little slower-paced and more fulfilling, then maybe breeding snakes is an avenue you could explore. But every guy that gets in and STAYS in the hobby/biz, there's 30 guys who are out within a year.

Well said Mykee!

[Tim and Julie B]

Okay, I'm kind of late in the game here but I'd like to say my bit:D

First of all, I believe in the general concept of "If I bred it, I will sell it for whatever I like". Why? Well, because I bred it and I will sell it for whatever I like. Why? Because I said so:D. This does not however apply to vending at a show. Why you ask? Because to become "someone" in this hobby depends solely on reputation. This means producing as many or as little animals as you like, but to produce the VERY BEST specimens possible. It means being mindful of market value and respecting those whose footsteps we choose to follow. So why on earth step on respectable toes just to sell out first at a show? I mean, you may as well shoot yourself in the foot first then get involved in breeding.

On another note. Someone here mentioned producing mass numbers of reptiles as a means to buy the more expensive things that they want to breed. Now, that is where the market crash comes from in the first place. Everyone jumps on board the "cheap sh*t" hoping to make some quick cash, but you really aren't helping yourself or anyone else in the long run. Why not save your pennies and buy what you really want in the first place? Yes, I know, easier said than done, but it's better for the hobby itself not to flood the market every year with the same crap that my 12 year old neighbor could produce with his eyes closed and hands tied behind his back. And remember, I never said don't breed the easy stuff, just don't flood the market. Heck, I breed leos for the right reasons, I absolutely love 'em and have several that are just pets (including my very first pair) and I focus on keeping my babies in top notch health with no worries of inbreeding (though that is another lengthy conversation in itself). It is important to keep and breed what you love.:D But as I stated above, if you can visually say your animals are better than others available, and if you are 100% certain you can back it up, then fly at it! Load up the market with your quality animals. I am being serious here, just so ya'll know.

As for sending people emails/pms declaring them in the wrong for selling THEIR animals for what they like (extra emphasis on "THEIR"), I say this-"Get off your high horse and bug your neighbors for their messy yards and loud kids instead". Ya, ya I know, I probably offended the "wrong" person and would otherwise think them "respectable" and such and have now stuck my foot in my mouth, but honestly how much respect does that kind of action warrant? I am tired of everyone having to kiss @$$ and corform just to make some members warm, tignly and satisfied. My point? It's one thing to kindly ask someone why they are selling something so cheap, but quite another to harass them. By today's standards email/pms are the same as a phone. No one has the right to call you at home to berate you, heck you could end up charged for that now a days, so why do the same through a computer?

Anyways, buy what you like, sell what you like at your own price, but remember, it's all at your own risk the same as everything else we do from day to day. Oh, and don't complain if you can't move 1000+ baby whatevers, cause you did it to yourself. Right? Know the market before it ends up owning you! My nickle in the bag................feels good to vent:D:D:D (This is not something I do often, so be gentle:D)

JULIE B

[Simon]

Jeff, Mark, Mykee,
Great posts~!

Totally agreed~!
I am like you Jeff. If I want quality animals, I would rather pay the higher price and customer service that they give out. Big breeders don't just get their name from no where. They have to build up their reputation with the quality of their animals and the service that they provide. Kind of like people buying "Brand Names" where we sell our own names as "Brands"

PS Jeff, When your womas sell for $400 let me know....LOL I love those so much. Their looks are just amazing~!! I would definitely look for you when I come back to Canada a couple years later when my factory is running smoothly and I am ready to retire~~

Mark,
Yup agreed~ We all have to adjust. Just how different people see it. Some people will see it as undercutting and some will see it as adjusting. Depends on who you talk to~ LOL....

Mykee,

Couldn't agree more~! Without the love of the animals and reinvesting to 'higher end morphs' or new bloodline or new animals...there is no way that we'll be able to keep on running 'the business' (that is if we really get any profit....) so producing and selling the animals is just really basically substaining the hobby and love ~~

[mykee]

Julie, awesome post. I don't use awesome often. I agree with you 100%. It's all about reputation, and quality. Those two things will make you, or break you.

[Tim and Julie B]

Thank you:D

Julie

[Jeff_Favelle]

Kind of like people buying "Brand Names" where we sell our own names as "Brands"

What a perfect analogy man! Branding. I totally agree.

[Simon]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
What a perfect analogy man! Branding. I totally agree.

LOL
So basically
the "Jeff Favelle' and "Simon Fung" Brand~
Man..that kind of sounds lame....lol....but this is really what we're selling....LOL~~

[BoidKeeper]

Well Jeff so far so good! Wait till you seen this years addtitions from Unkie all paid for by this years sales.
Cheers,
Trevor
PS
We need to talk about some adult female balls for some JCP soon. After this pastel season it will be time to move out of balls.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ooooo more snakes???? I AM intrigued brother!!!! Can't go wrong with Roy's stuff. For sure.

No more Balls man? I am impressed. Trading Balls for other snakes gets my respect ANY day! LOL!

I am always here brother, you know that. ;)

[Jeff_Favelle]

LOL Simon, that does sound kind of weird eh? But it applies. Bizarre.

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

Haha, Almost all the points here I agree with, and most could be argued agaisnt each other. I am speechless. Why couldn't the market be simpler?!:D LOL.

C.

[Optimus Prime]

It's all too true Jeff your name is your brand look at people in the states Bob Clark this and that lol and its like that up here too. I must say I'm proud to own some Jeff Favelle Carpets :) probably more soon! PS gonna call you later today.

[marisa]

Stop making fun of balls. Who can't love snakes who save you on food because they are picky, and barely crap? :P:P

I don't agree that anyone can tell anyone what to sell for. In my mind I am going to ALWAYS sell for less than they are worth because in the herp market right now, I feel almost every snake that isn't a morph is UNDER priced and under appreciated. I myself have gotten barely into the whole ball thing, but its because I want more money for kingsnakes....LOL....my first albino or any other morph i make will be sold and the money will be put back into colubrids because kings are my real love and interest in this game. My boyfriend and I would like a part of our stuff to be able to make money for the other less pricey animals we are more interested in....I think that's a good way to be in this hobby, making the hobby self sufficent for you. So I mean I have to think about the money over the herps sometimes, because I need that money for more herps! LOL

You MUST stick with what YOU like. Too many people switch up their collections each year to get with the new thing. I have fiddled with my stuff now to the point where I am happy with what I have.

Marisa

[Jeff_Favelle]

I don't agree that anyone can tell anyone what to sell for. In my mind I am going to ALWAYS sell for less than they are worth because in the herp market right now, I feel almost every snake that isn't a morph is UNDER priced and under appreciated

Couldn't agree with this statement any more!!!

Optimus, I got to ship snakes at 4:15pm (my time) and I got V-Ball from 6-9pm (my time). But the cell phone will be on (250-516-7004). Call me for sure! :D

[BoidKeeper]

Ooooo more snakes???? I AM intrigued brother!!!! Can't go wrong with Roy's stuff. For sure.
Speaking of brand names eh! I'm very found of the Stockwell brand name.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Simon]

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
Speaking of brand names eh! I'm very found of the Stockwell brand name.
Cheers,
Trevor

LOL
add me to the list~
I like Stockwell's brand name too
as well as Favelle, MarB, and some other great people out there~

Its just great~!!

[ChristinaM]

Well, quick jump in here, on the brand names....

I have "Fung's Corn's" a "Favelle's Brazilian" and a "Hamill Hog bci ". as far as snakes go.

Dragons: I have a bunch of "Donald's ".

There's many more brand names out there that I would love to have too :)

But, I also have and LOVE my no-name brands too. Wouldn't trade em for the world :D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha I hear ya Christina! Too many brand names and not enough Rubbermaids to house them all! LOL!!

[Simon]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Ha ha I hear ya Christina! Too many brand names and not enough Rubbermaids to house them all! LOL!!

Agreed~!!!!!
Couldn't agree more~

I still want some Favelle Womas, Patterson Black Head, Stockwell Albino Limbergs, Piorun Ringed....darn....so much more and so little space~!!!!

[Canada_Club]

I don't understand Invictus.

You said:

I personally don't give a damn if person A wants to sell their stuff for less than what I'm selling them for. The way I see it is, I do my best to collect and breed the most superior specimens I can get my hands on. If someone wants to sell common boas for $50, fine. Mine will still be at or slightly above market value if mine are nicer looking, cleaner patterned, higher pink, or whatever. (Not that I breed them right now, but I have the adults ready for next season.)


But then you said:

What bugs the hell out of me is people jacking UP their prices just because of who they are. This is egotsitcal horses**t in my opinion

Isn't that a bit hypocritical, on more levels than one?? How can you say that a person can charge whatever he/she wants to, but yet get irate over someone who charges more than you think they should? And would it bug you? Do you have to purchase it? Why does it even affect you? I'm not sure if you breed snakes, but what would affect you worse; 1) A guy down the street breeds the same snakes as you, say Sinaloan Milksnakes. He charges $75, when you charge $150. or 2) A guy also breeds Sinaloan Milksnakes down the street from you and he charges $250, but you charge only $150. What's going to affect you worse, purely from a business standpoint? I think #1 is the obvious answer.

I don't have a huge collection, an I don't breed, but I just can't make the connection s to why it would bother you so much that a breeder of snakes charges more than you think they are worth. It doesn't make sense, because it doesn't really affect you on any level.

Or maybe you're esily bugged?

No harm intended, just trying to get a grasp of what you were trying to convey.

CC.

[Tim and Julie B]

He was trying to convey that just because you are "someone" it should not automatically mean that you can charge more than everyone else for the exact same quality of animal. Right Ken? I thought it rather obvious:D

Julie

[Invictus]

You're dead on Julie. :)

I pay higher prices for higher quality animals. Not the same quality of animals. And really, it doesn't affect me at all. It's just one of those things that bugs me, that's all. I apologize if anyone read this and got their feathers ruffled, or thought I was accusing them of something.

[Tim and Julie B]

Couldn't agree more. Why would anyone willingly fork out extra cash for something just to say, "Hey, I have a **** bred by ****"? It makes no sense. The only reason you should buy any animal is because you are happy with the quality, not because you are looking for bragging rights.

Julie

[Ryan and Katie]

Whew...That's a long read but a good debate....
The word quality has been used alot in this post but what characteristics are necessary for someone to pay more for a high quality animal? Is it just looks or are there other factors? For instance, the lineage of the animal, previous owners, health, brand :) .... For us, trusting the people we're dealing with is a major factor... So, how does everyone define high quality? Could be interesting...:)

[Derrick]

as long as your happy with what you payed for what you gotdoes it really matter. Look all the people that pay petstore prices and are happy with that ...hehe

[Jeff_Favelle]

No kidding Ryan/Katie. How do you define quality. If two people were selling similar-looking animals, but one person was established, never had a bad transaction, bred the animals themselves, been in the "biz" for a number of years and will always be available for "tech support", as oppsed to a guy who is reselling his animals, suspected to have a mite problem, never bred a thing, doesn't need to worry about is "name" in the biz, therefore has no responsibility for reputation, etc etc?

Think one guy should be able to sell the animals in question for more? I think so. If people can charge as little as they want, people can charge as much as they want. It only affects the seller and the buyer in most cases, so us fretting about it is moot.

Excellent point about lineage too guys. Often ignored by all but the most discriminating of reptile lovers. Its a shame too.

[Optimus Prime]

I am more then willing to pay through the teeth for HQ animals and from some one who is gonna give "tech support". Also Jeff bring up an excellent point about lineage.

I mean I could find jungle carpets in my local pet store for cheap but the chances of them looking as good as jeff's or don's are slim to none so I am more then willing to pay more for thiers plus with Jeff anyways I get the benifit of his many years keeping and breeding those animals and that is more then worth the extra Price!

I guess it all boils down to what are you willing to pay, and too me price is almost never an issue, Like Ken said Quality is #1 on my list. Ahywhooo thats my 2 cents on that bit :p

[marisa]

I am most certaintly willing to pay more for a name!!!!! Does this mean I exclude "no namers" like myself when looking for something? No. But in most cases if I want to buy something over a couple hundred dollars, I am gonna hope to find it from a well known breeder. Simply because like Jeff pointed out, they have something to lose if you are unhappy and most will go further out of their way to make you happy since they have to keep their good name intact. Someone who is selling me say 1 ETB and has nothing else, doesn't really care if I am not happy or not and probably doesn't have the funds or animals to replace should something go wrong.

Mind you with lower end stuff like corns, kings, regular balls and boas say, I would be willing to purchase from anyone and base my sale on the animals apperance alone. It's taking less of a risk with cheaper animals and I feel more comfortable possibly getting ripped off for 100 than I do 1,000.

Marisa

[nita]

Also on the brand names. When looking for hets I would always go to a respected breeder rather than a no name, just for safety sake. One of my fave brands being a woods axanthic! LOL, someday I will save up for those.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I agree with Queen Marisa. I would never exclude a smaller breeder. Its TOTALLY transaction-specific. After decades of buying reptiles, I would never just have a hard and fast rule for purchases.

And that's why I think places like here are great, because people can get TONS of info and do their research before spending their hard-earned cashola. Its not like the old days (like 10 years ago) when there was NO internet websites and you had to do everything over the phone and by snail-mail.

[marisa]

Psssh. If I was a real Queen I could say "off with their heads!" a lot more often than I get too now. :P

Marisa

[Jeff_Favelle]

Heh heh...