ATT: New Shipping Requirements

[leoncurrie]

I went to the airport today and my shipment was rejected based on the fact that the snake was in a Styrofoam/Cardboard container. This is the literature that the employee at Air Canada Cargo provided to me. He said that my snake would not be shipped unless it met the following requirements:

CONTAINER REQUIREMENT 44

Applicable to Snakes

The following instructions must be compiled with in addition to the principles laid down in the General Container Requirements for Reptiles and Amphibians.

Measurement

Snakes should be measured by total length (TL) and by body width (BW), at the widest point of the animal¡¯s body.

Care should be taken that these animals are never stretched during measurement. Measurements of width should be taken with the animal resting in normal posture.

Specific Requirements

All rigid containers must have some kind of packing material (i.e. crumpled paper). Packing material is also recommended for bags.

Burlap (hessian) sacks are not allowed for any snake species less than 120 cm (48 in).

The maximum number of animals per bag or container must not be increased even when larger bags or containers are used.

Packing Density for Snakes in Flat Lying Bags
Total length / Body width / Max # animals per bag / Minimum bag size
¡Ý 120cm (48in) / > 4cm(1.5in) / 1 / Dependent on the size of the animal
¡Ý 90-120cm ¡À 15cm (36-48in ¡À 6in) / ¡Ü 4cm(1.5in) / 8 / 45 ¡Á 60cm (18 ¡Á24in)
4 / 30 ¡Á 45cm (12 ¡Á 18in)
¡Ý 60¨C90cm ¡À 10cm (24¨C36 in ¡À 4in) / ¡Ü 4cm (1.5in) / 12 / 45 ¡Á 60cm (18 ¡Á24in)
8 / 30 ¡Á 45cm(12 ¡Á 18in)
¡Ý 30¨C60cm ¡À 10cm (12¨C24in ¡À 4in) / ¡Ü 4cm(1.5in) / 14 / 30 ¡Á 45cm(12 ¡Á 18in)
¡Ü 30cm ¡À 7.5cm(12¡À3in) / ¡Ü 4cm(1.5in) / 24 / 30 ¡Á 45cm(12 ¡Á 18 in)


Exception for Stout Bodied Python Regius (Ball Pythons)
All lengths up to 120 cm (48 in) (15 cm [6 in] variance) / >4cm(1.5 in) / 8 / 45 ¡Á 60 cm
(18 ¡Á 24 in)
All other lengths / < 4cm(1.5in) / Same as in snake table above / Same as in snake table above

If the bag is suspended, it must be suspended horizontally from the opposite ends and the maximum number of animals per bat should be divided by two.

Plastic containers are permissible for snakes less than 60 cm (24 in) in length. These containers must be rigid and able to support the entire weight of all other containers when stacked upright and if turned upside down, without failing structurally (without bending, cracking or collapsing). The size of these containers must enable the animals to have contact with their whole ventral surface to the floor of the container.

The following snake species should be packed singly because they are cannibalistic:

Black-headed python, woma (Aspiditis spp.) Milk and king snakes (lampropeltis) Mussurana (Clelia clelia)

* PLEASE NOTE: All Snakes over 24 in. in total length must be shipped within a non-crushable wooden crate withstanding a minimum of 100 lbs.

[BoidKeeper]

We are screwed! Did you talk to West Jet yet?
Jeff, Don, Corey or anybody else that ships on a regular basis, have you guys run into this yet?
Trevor

[leoncurrie]

Trev,
I phoned West Jet but they asked me to call back tomorrow...I will keep you posted on the info that they provide to me.
Leon

[Scales Zoo]

You got that from Air Canada?

The table is a little confusing, but any snake over 24'' needs a wooden crate? I'll be selling wooden crates at the Red Deer show.

Ryan

[leoncurrie]

My wife type it out in word (there was charts) but this site does not support that. Follow the breaks, If anyone would like the typed out copy. let me know and I will email it to you. This is what I received from air canada. They would not accept my reptile for shipment.

[NiagaraReptiles]

That is a portion of the regulations taken from the IATA guidlines manual. There is a portion following that (I believe) that states the requirements for styrofoam/cardboard shipping containers and rigid containers for smaller reptiles. It's late and I'm not in the mood to reference it exactly right now........maybe tomorrow ;)

The IATA hand book can be ordered through them directly for a cost of $119 US.

It is the shippers responsibility to conform to IATA shipping regulations and it is also the right of the airline to refuse inapropriately packed shipments.

JonK

[leoncurrie]

Originally posted by NiagaraReptiles
That is a portion of the regulations taken from the IATA guidlines manual. There is a portion following that (I believe) that states the requirements for styrofoam/cardboard shipping containers and rigid containers for smaller reptiles. It's late and I'm not in the mood to reference it exactly right now........maybe tomorrow ;)

The IATA hand book can be ordered through them directly for a cost of $119 US.

It is the shippers responsibility to conform to IATA shipping regulations and it is also the right of the airline to refuse inapropriately packed shipments.

JonK

Yes... that is true however, I was told directly (and I quote) " Any snake over 24" that is not confined in a non crushable wood crate will not be shipped!"

[Tim_Cranwill]

I shipped on AC 3 days ago and they didn't say anything. ???

Sounds like some pretty strict guidelines. It will be a pain if they ARE enforced.

[leoncurrie]

Originally posted by Tim_Cranwill
I shipped on AC 3 days ago and they didn't say anything. ???

Sounds like some pretty strict guidelines. It will be a pain if they ARE enforced.

Well Tim, My guess is you might have gotten lucky.LOL
When I went to the airport, I was greeted with a big "NO" and given the new guidelines. I called the guy that was supposed to receive the snake and he called the fredericton AC cargo. He was told the same thing. If anyone would like to verify my story, have any questions or protest this..... the number to Air Canada Cargo is: (506) 446-6131

Leon

[Jeff_Favelle]

I shipped out 31 snakes just fine the other day. I wouldn't even know where to get a wooden crate even if I had too, LOL!!

[Rob McRobbie]

I'm gonna go to Home Dept and start buying up all the lumber... My company name will be "CRATES R US"


Anyone want to go into business with me.. you'll have to sell off your collection for shares...

[Jeff_Favelle]

LOL!!

[BoAddict]

i was thinking the same thing rob lol

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

LEONCURRIE:

Wow, this will put a few of us out when it comes to shipping. I myself have not shipped anything this past week so I don' t know what this situation is but will check both airlines tomorrow. Never had a problem before since my methods are somewhat over kill at times on packaging.

Youn mention they result of you going to Air Canada and then being denied. My question is this and please don' t take offense it is simply part 2 to that situation.

What were you shipping and describe the method you used to package them animals in detail, please?

Everything from protecting the animal to securing it in it package and the airlines basic standard rules. Reason I ask is maybe they saw something that was not up to par and then they went to an extreme description of what they want done. Because I once was asked something like this by Air Canada and they started reading the manual to me. Then I said how I have done it for years with fish and boids and parrots and they said it was OK.

Again please don' t take offense as I do not know you and your shipping methods so I simply want part 2 to this situation.

Thank you.

Cya...

Tony

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

JEFF:

With 120 plus JPCs and 60 plus BRBs and the rest you got breeding, this situation better not be are hard as it is stated. Or you' ll need to invest in a small lumber yard.

LOL....joking.

Cya...

Tony

[Corey Woods]

Leon,

Sounds like you got a jerk down at Air Canada. I've never had a problem.

Corey

[leoncurrie]

Originally posted by BOAS_N_PYTHONS
LEONCURRIE:

Wow, this will put a few of us out when it comes to shipping. I myself have not shipped anything this past week so I don' t know what this situation is but will check both airlines tomorrow. Never had a problem before since my methods are somewhat over kill at times on packaging.

Youn mention they result of you going to Air Canada and then being denied. My question is this and please don' t take offense it is simply part 2 to that situation.

What were you shipping and describe the method you used to package them animals in detail, please?

Everything from protecting the animal to securing it in it package and the airlines basic standard rules. Reason I ask is maybe they saw something that was not up to par and then they went to an extreme description of what they want done. Because I once was asked something like this by Air Canada and they started reading the manual to me. Then I said how I have done it for years with fish and boids and parrots and they said it was OK.

Again please don' t take offense as I do not know you and your shipping methods so I simply want part 2 to this situation.

Thank you.

Cya...

Tony


Hey Tony,

The way the snake was packed was not an issue. It was the styro-foam/cardboard container that was the issue. He said it was not crush proof and does not follow the new guidelines.
The last thng I want to do is cause problems. I just think that everyone should be aware of this. I have shppied many times in the past without any problems. The styro-foam/cardboard container that I was going to use is the same one that I received reptiles from Don Patterson.

Leon

[BoidKeeper]

For those of you not having problems I wonder if it's just a matter of time or what? We want to complain to someone but we're affraid that if we say other airports aren't being this strict why are you that they might crack down and make all airports this strict. I've run into something once already between airports in NB where one never asked to check the box and the other would not put it on the plan until I opened it for them.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Scales Zoo]

The last time we shipped, the lady asked us when the last time the snake had food and water, and then wrote it down. I thought it was a bit odd, and then nevously she asked us if there was anything else she needed to know.

Ryan

[leoncurrie]

I'm confused. Should I pursue this subject and ask why other people can ship with styro/cardboard containers or should I build this coffin like crate?

[Stockwell]

I have always shipped in wooden crates when I did the bulk of my exporting to the USA.. I haven't shipped anything in quite a few years and was actually shocked to find out that people were simply using styrofoam with no wooden external. When we used to order from Tom Crutchfield and Louis Porras they would always ship in the wooden crates... It was always the way in the 80's and 90's... I'm not sure when the wooden crate rule started being bypassed.
I must admit it is odd that you can ship fish in styro and carrboard but not herps.
The IATA rules have always been a pain and the worst part is , its unpredictable what you'll be told at the airport from one day to another. Sometimes they are followed by the letter and other times they are not.
There was a time when every snake had to be suspended in a bag, then inside a container. I still have a box of Steve Hammacks old socks from when he used to ship to me in the 90's. His shipment was rejected because the snakes weren't suspended in bags, inside secondary containers.. On top of that American airlines requires a vert certificate to ship snakes out of the USA... and even know its not a Canadian requirement his cargo (my snakes) were refused boarding until he got a vet letter which is ridiculous. As if a vet can tell if a snake is carrying anything.

You guys are lucky Air Canada still takes snakes in Canada.
I recently had to scrap flying a shipment to Texas. Air Canada has stopped taking all cargo to DFW and most of the US airlines require you to be a verified shipper(like Delta and US air) I had access to Delta through a friend but they wanted 168 bucks flat rate to take live animals and it still wouldn't have arrived before US customs closed at 5PM... which is a huge problem in the states because most airlines wont hold live cargo overnight.
Getting animals to customers will continue to be a huge hassle both internationally and domestically.

[leoncurrie]

Well said Roy. :)

[BoidKeeper]

The last time we shipped, the lady asked us when the last time the snake had food and water, and then wrote it down.
Same here. But then when I told here who often snakes eat she thought it was a silly question too.
Roy if this is the wave of the future I think my order this fall may end up being my last for a while. Looks like I'll be driving to TO a lot more.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Linds]

If this becomes a regularily enforced thing, I'm sure the shipping population will drop dramatically :(

Originally posted by BoidKeeper
We want to complain to someone but we're affraid that if we say other airports aren't being this strict why are you that they might crack down and make all airports this strict.

We can still complain and build arguements while leaving out that tidbit of info as to not get ourselves any deeper.

[GeckoCorral]

I ship my leos with Air Canada all the time, well at least when I have orders that need to be shipped. :D

I've never had a problem and I always ship with styrofoam lined boxes. Once, however, I did have an attendant ask me how the geckos were packaged inside. I can understand them asking this but if they don't open the box and check, I could tell them anything I want.

Once I had the attendant give me a bit of regulation info to read and then asked me if they were packaged according to this. I don't think they were packed EXACTLY as stated but I told him what I had them packed in, etc, etc, and he said "Sounds close enough to me as long as they can get air and are packaged individually."

Trust me, if I ever am shipping any type of snake and they want it crated I'll tell them where to shove that rule and mention how geckos, fish, rodents, etc, are shipped and why on earth should snakes be shipped any differently?!?!?!?!

My two cents anyway.

Diana.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Ha ha Tony, thank god I live in BC where lumber is CHEAP! LOL!!

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

Sorry tried erasing this post due to spelling errors.

But bottom one is the right one.

Cya...

Tony

[BOAS_N_PYTHONS]

EVERYONE:

Well after finally getting through at my Air Canada they then gave me the number.

1 - 866 - 615 - 1155

This takes you to live animal cargo information department.

I simply asked if you have a snake from 15 - 36" or more packaged in a small plastic container and made secure then placed in some support like rolled up or crunched newspaper or Styrofoam chips then inside a Styrofoam box and strong cardboard box and sealed and labeled as they instruct. Or if you have a few snakes in same package done the same way. I even described the cardboard box dimensions of 24" x 24" x 12" (average size).

The agent on the phone said that is perfect.

I then said reason why I am asking is because I heard there might be new rules placed recently on shipping reptiles and snakes that are 24 inches into wooden crates.

They said there is no new rules and they have not heard of the crate system unless on really large 30 plus lbs animals. In this case I myself agree too.

The agent said the way I described the packaging for snakes is perfect and no reason to see otherwise. And they do not know of this new rule which they would be the ones to enforce anyways. So LEONCURRIE all I can say is something happened with you at your location, maybe a new agent trying to do things by the book to the extreme or they felt you did something wrong in the shipping or something else. Not saying you did something wrong, only saying from this phone call I made today about 15 minutes ago. The normal standard shipping methods I use and others use seems to be fine.

So all of you thinking a new crate business, lol........sell your shares........lol.

Hope this helps, if not call them yourselves.

My 2 cents, back in my pocket.

Cya...

Tony

[Tim_Cranwill]

Great news Tony... that is such a relief. :)

Thanks for taking the time to make the call. ;)

[David Kwok]

I second what Corey said.... I have never had a problem.
Air Canada cargo is a corporate mess.... They don't know what they are doing half the time and there seems to be no communication w/ in the company. If you have a problem always go to the top, talk to the cargo manager and let him/her know "You do it all the time". After I say that, they never rebuttal me.

Dave :)

[Cruciform]

The wooden crate idea for snakes rather than fish is probably because if you crush a fishes box it doesn't escape and scare the bejeezus out of someone with a phobia, resulting in a nonsense lawsuit :)

[Invictus]

What the hell are you talking about... I'm terrified of fish.

:D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Fish are scaaaaarrrrryyyyyyy...............

[Tim_Cranwill]

Man, one time, I was swimming at a camp ground, and I was under water, and I picked up a cinder block, and a fish swam out, and I got scared, and screamed under-water, and it was scary, and I screamed, under-water... Man, that was scary...

:D

[allamericanPD]

man fish scare me lol

[Cruciform]

Sigh... that's just asking for so many improper jokes :)

[NiagaraReptiles]

I have to say that I'm kind of surprised that so many "shippers" aren't familiar with IATA regulations. These are not newly set in place, though do get revisited from time to time. IATA was created for the benefit of the animals being transported, and while a lot of the "suggested" methods seem rather strange to me, the intent remains the same. Personally, I stick with the styro in a rigid cardboard primary whenever possible.

I have found that shipping domestically (with in Canada) is somewhat relaxed, but exporting CITES shipments is a different story. They do ask if the shipment meets IATA regulations and it even says right on the CITES documents that they will not be considered valid if the animals are not properly packaged.



Just a short quote from IATA's General Container Requirements for Reptiles and Amphibians (CR-41-47) paragraph 10

"If polystyrene boxes are used inside of cardboard boxes the walls of the polystyrene boxes must have a minimum thickness of 2cm (3/4 inch). If separate polystyrene panels are used they must be tighly fitted to each other within the primary enclosure with no gap to prevent escape and avoid injury............"

......and from page 243 container requirement 44, paragraph 9
"Plastic containers are permissable for snakes less than 60 cm (24 in) in length. These containers must be rigid and able to support the entire weight of all other containers when stacked upright and if turned upside down, without failing structurally (without bending, cracking, or collapsing). The size of these containers must enable the animals to have contact with their whole ventral surface to the floor of the container."

edited: I forgot to add that no where does it say that snakes over 24" must be shipped in a wooden crate..........they do have to be packed in bags (according to guidlines), but the primary container can conform to any described types, styro lined boxes included).

Also contained in this section are suggested box designs for every type of reptile/amphibian, most of which suggest wood (I won't get into all the requirements for that as it is pretty lengthy).

JonK

[Jeff_Favelle]

I doubt plastic containers will be allowed in the near future, given that Air Canada is going EXCLUSIVELY to the slimmer jets that have NO HEATED CARGO. Exactly how does one insulate a plastic box? LOL!

3/4" cardboard?? Holy smokes, do they even make it that thick? I get my boxes now custom made FROM the fish transport industry and they are the THICKEST available and they are no where near 3/4" thick. My styrofoam is though.

[Stockwell]

Jon, I'm a bit surprised too..but I suspect many Canadian herpers have yet to export internationally with CITES.
And yes, I received a sand boa export CITES a couple weeks ago and Stamped right on the front of it in a black box was
"For live animals this permit is only valid if the transport conditions conform to the Guidelines for Transport of live animals or in the case of air transport to the IATA regulations"

Jon did you actually buy the IATA LAR manual.??

I no longer export enough to justify it, but I'd sure like to see a copy if you could loan it at the next show.
I used to have some pages from the old one but I dont recall ever paying for it. I'm not sure if it used to be free or perhaps I actually got it from Ottawa with an old CITES export permit
It used to show a wooden crate with numerous comparments/dividers, with holes in it, but it's obviously obsolete now.

A couple years back when I imported from Steve Osborne, I questioned him on his professional looking cardboard and styro boxes.
Steve works for the FAA, and mentioned to me that the IATA rules had been re written for herp transporting and that styros and deli cups were now OK... I assume your reference to plastic containers above, means Deli type containers and they are talking about stacking numerous containers one on top the other which is standard practive for neonate snakes.

For anyone interested here is the link to the
IATA publications website
https://www.iataonline.com/Store/Products/Product+Detail.htm?cs_id=9105%2D31&cs_catalog=Publications

[NiagaraReptiles]

Jeff - I think you might have been having a late night again ;) The plastic containers refernece is from the individual packing requirements for snakes. The blurb prior is regarding primary packing conatainers.

Roy - I was going to order the manual, but the are revisiting it in September I think and I didn't want an outdated copy. I was able to get them to fax me just the reptile and amphibian sections for temporary reference. If you are interested in a copy, I'd be able to arrange something for you.

Those wooden crates are still outlined as appropriate shipping containers and the manual gives several designs/ideas of different speceis. It also outlines how many animals per bag/sized bag you are allowed to pack, etc. These ugly, primative looking wooden crates are still used regularly in the wholesale industry.
Yes, that quote was referring to deli cups. This is why I use SOLO's......toughest deli I've ever seen.

JonK

[reptiguy]

Hey all,
I'm the one that Leon was shipping to. I had not doubt that what Leon told me about his trip to the airport was true becase we have been friends for quite sometime. He did give me the number though and insisted that I call so I did.
The guy I spoke with was the same guy that Leon had, and sure enough, he said that anything over 24" had to be in a sturdy wooden box with internal supports. I mentioned that I knew of people who had been shipping for years using the styrofoam box method and he said that he couldn't let everyone break the rules.
He said that the box had to be non crushable. He said that it had to be able to withstand having 7200 lbs being set on it!!!! I thought that was crazy cause I don't even know if a normal wooden crat could withstand that kind of weight. Can you set 7200 lbs on a dog or cat carrier???? I don't think so!!! I see in the quotes posted here that the box has to be able to witstand 100 lbs from other things on top of it which is much more reasonable.
My personal thoughts are just that this guy at the airport was some old guy who didn't like the idea of snakes being shipped because I have never heard of anyone having any issues shipping in styrofoam containers. Don't know if he misunderstood the regulations or if he just wanted to be difficult.

I will also say that all of Leon's packing materials were perfect for shipping. I was home on the east coast earlier this summer at which time I inspected the animal and got to have a look at what he was shipping in and it followed the guidelines of a post made here a little while back. I think it was labled something like "How to ship in Canada". So Leon did a great job with the shipping. We ended up going with Westjet, they were still very thorough in checking the contents of the box, packaging etc but they took it. It was either build a big a** wooden crate or have Leon drive 3 hrs with insane gas prices (I helped out a bit on the gas) to the Westjet airport. Thanks Leon for driving :)

I really hope that this is the only instance of problems with shipping here in Canada that we all come up against. It would make things difficult if everyone had to ship in wooden crates that "Had to be able to support 7200 lbs"!!!!

Thanks again Leon for the amazing animal and for the trouble you had to go through for the shipping!

Also, thanks to everyone here who posted for the info. Again, hopefully we won't see another instance of this in Canada anytime soon but keep us posted if you do!!!!

Thanks,
-Reptiguy-

[Jeff_Favelle]

Makes sense Jon.

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
I doubt plastic containers will be allowed in the near future, given that Air Canada is going EXCLUSIVELY to the slimmer jets that have NO HEATED CARGO.


They had talked about doing that, but it is on the "3 year plan" - which I guess changes quite a bit.

Without heated cargo, they would not accept any live animal shipments, which includes bringing your cat and dog with. And that just won't work, every Air Canada employee I've talked to about that is sure they won't be going all non-heated cargo, as it is more than just pets that need the heated cargo also - and they make a lot of money with heated cargo.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

Ryan

[leoncurrie]

Hey Dave,
Thanks for clearing any questions about my creditablitity.

Leon

[Jeff_Favelle]

WestJet doesn't have heated cargo and they accept live animals. Air Canada already has the waiver forms in circulation for when they make the switch. As your local cargo guy for a copy of one.

[leoncurrie]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
WestJet doesn't have heated cargo and they accept live animals. Air Canada already has the waiver forms in circulation for when they make the switch. As your local cargo guy for a copy of one.

Hi Jeff,
I'm not sure what you mean. Could you explain more?
Leon

[Jeff_Favelle]

WestJet doesn't have heated cargo and they accept live animals. Air Canada already has the waiver forms in circulation for when they make the switch. As your local cargo guy for a copy of one.

[Derrick]

lol care to expand on that Jeff :D

[Scales Zoo]

West Jet has heated cargo planes, always make sure you get one of those.

Air Canada, and Jazz and the other lines, use that new special form on the off months - September to April - and you can't insure against temperature during those times.

A non heated cargo hold can get down to -30 c when they are way up in the air, even when it is warm down here - and they would not take puppies and cats under those circumstances.

Some of the west jet flights and air canada flights that don't say they have heated cargo (online), actually do have their cargo holds heated with the same air as the passenger part. The planes that fly from Calgary to Medicine hat do not show up as heated cargo on their little list, but the cargo hold is heated, so they can accept cats, dogs, fish and reptiles.

Ryan

[leoncurrie]

Thanks for clearing that up guys. I won't be shipping or receiving reptiles after August from now on.
Leon

[leoncurrie]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
WestJet doesn't have heated cargo and they accept live animals. Air Canada already has the waiver forms in circulation for when they make the switch. As your local cargo guy for a copy of one.

What is the matter Jeff? Did you get this out a book and don't understand it yourself? That's the only explanation I can see for the exact same post twice.

Leon

[Jeff_Favelle]

LOL!

[BoidKeeper]

Jeff and Leon I know you both and nothing would make me happier then to see you both after 12 beer!
Cheers,
Trevor