stillborn crested?

[CanadianJackson]

Last night, I checked around 11, one of my eggs slit and the baby poked its head, so I waited till about 1 this afternoon and there didn't seem to be any progress. So i very very carefully slit the egg a little more and gently pulled it a little more of the way out, still no sign of movment or beathing. Now I noticed the shell is much harder than any of my chameleon or bearded dragon eggs, are they normally like that? or was the egg over calcified and it just was to tough for the baby to get out of, it also had its tongue out just a tiny little bit. has anyone else had problems like this??

Thanks

[thunder]

if the egg was indeed overcalcified, it is possible that the baby was unable to break through the shell, and drowned in the egg.

[CanadianJackson]

It had pretty much its whole head out, nostrils were free and clear so it would've been able to breathe.

[dj_honeycuts]

I wouldn't really think that it would have anything to do with overcalcification of the shell if the egg was already slit and the baby was on its way out. I read your earlier post about the egg collapsing, and was going to put in my opinion there but didn't have the time then, so I'll give my thoughts here. Crested gecko eggs are considered soft-shelled by gecko standards, but if you compare them to eggs like those from chameleons they are still quite a bit more rigid, and not like a thin leather parchment. I'm glad that you have experience with chams and beardies because you'll know exactly what I'm talking about by how these types of eggs feel. I've never noticed any of my crested eggs collapsing before they hatch. They sweat, but they always seem to hold their shape as the gecko comes out. Seems a little odd to me, but others may have similar experiences as yours.
Is this your pairs first clutch? If so, from discussing hatchling success rates with several breeders, and from my own experience, each individual pair seems to have varying success rate with the first few clutches depending on feeding patterns and husbandry practices. With some pairs the first few clutches can either be stillborn in the egg, or the hatchlings are weak and don't last long after they hatch. My first pair were very hit and miss for the first season that I had tried to breed them. I had a pretty itchy trigger finger, and probably should have waited until the following season as they were just barely a year old. With the next few pairs that I got I waited until they 2 years old and had much better success.
It's always heartbreaking to find a dead hatchling, but I wouldn't get discouraged about it. Good luck!

[CanadianJackson]

It was my females first egg, she only laid one that time every time after its been 2, shes 3 years old, the male was 1 year. Oh well hopefully the others will hatch out guess I got another month or so to wait.

[dj_honeycuts]

As long as you have kept her well fed, and given her plenty of calcium, the next couple of eggs should hopefully hatch without any problems. It was the pairs first attempt at breeding, so it was probably almost like a test run. :D
I know what the waiting game is like! Good luck and post pics when they hatch!

[alan]

Actually I am having a similar problem. My crested baby hatched earlier last night and half of its body is still in the egg, which did collasped. Twenty-four hours later, there doesn't seem much progress, the gecko is moving around with the shell on it. Should I slit it open? It's the mother's second clutch and both of her first clutch and the other egg from the second clutch failed to hatch.

[sara]

That's a tough question. You have to consider ethically whether is is acceptable to aid a hatchling with reduced fitness. On the one hand, it could turn out to be perfectly healthy in every way, but on the other hand something could be very wrong. Here's a decent example, think about how frustrating your female's limited breeding sucess has been. Since one could argue that overall reduced fitness would carry on into other attributes in adulthood, is it worth risking the addition of those types of problems into the general population?
The harsh reality is that any crested gecko is only as good as it's most undesirable trait. (my motto)

[ColleenT]

when my female laid eggs in December, i kept them until March and on day 65, i went to check on them, and one had partially opened, and i could see that there was fluid coming out, so i took te eggs to the counter, and i helped cut the egg skin, but it was too late, he had been too small, weak, and the egg too tough. however, at the moment i picked up the second egg, it oozed some fluid, and so i did not want to take any chances, and i started to make a small slit, and the back of the egg split open, and out popped a healthy baby gecko. so i think sometimes help is needed, but if the baby is healthy, it may be just fine on it's own.

[alan]

Thanks for the reply guys, actually I slit the egg open soon after I posted. The gecko is doing great so far. However I am worried about if the gecko will last after reading dj's post. Anyways, I figure I ought to help the gecko since it did hatched and are walking around already. But I'll take sara's advice and not breed it if it turns out weaker than others.

[dj_honeycuts]

alan - sorry to cause you any worry. I'll have my fingures crossed for your little hatchling. Getting weak ones out of the egg is usually half the battle! :D
Just be diligent with feeding, misting, and make sure the initial cage isn't too large so that it has the opportunity to find food. If it hatches weak it is never an easy task, and ends up being a bit of an uphill battle. Good luck!

sara - I think you have a very good point. When you think about how small the initial numbers of geckos is that were exported from New Caledonia, and most of the breeding stock we have now is based on these, it's a wonder that we haven't begun to see more genetic abnormalities. What I would like to add though is that Canadian Jackson's male was only a year old, which although is sexually mature, is still really young. Alan may also be in the same boat. Eventhough the animal may technically be able to breed, that doesn't mean that he is going to be as successful as a male who has had time to fully "mature". I seem to remember reading a few articles stating that they become sexually mature between 10-12 months, but that you want to wait until they are 18-24 months to ensure a higher success rate with hatchlings due to better fat stores and such in the adults. This is going to have more to do with physical fitness, but not necessarily with the genetic fitness of the pair. The physical fitness of the parents is also mentioned as one of the determining factors in hatchling success rates in the Vosjoli, Fast, and Repashy "Rhacodactylus". These physical deficiencies are not going to be passed on to the future offspring unless they were genetic to begin with. If a young or first time breeding female doesn't have the proper amount of fat, calcium, etc. to pass onto the young you are almost guaranteed to get weak young.
I'm not trying to argue with you. Just adding my thoughts to what you had to say. I fully agree with your thoughts on the ramifications of affecting a breeding population. Only time will tell whether or not it is a genetic abnormality. At the very least, success means someone will end up with a great pet! :D

[DragnDrop]

I've seen my fair share of weak hatchlings, and even though it's heartbreaking, it does happen. After a decade of breeding geckos and lizards, over 300 per year, it still doesn't get easier when one doesn't make it out of the egg. I've had some successes, but mostly failures when trying to save the little lives. How do we know we're actually doing some good? Maybe the baby has some deformity internally which we can't see, or is just too weak to make it, and we're prolonging a life of agonizing pain?
It might sound cruel, but I've decided to go along with Mother Nature. The first and most important task the gecko has to master in life is to hatch. Nothing else it will ever do is as important as getting out of the egg. If it can't master that, then Mother Nature doesn't want it in the gene pool. I don't step in unless the baby is at least half way out of the egg (I figure if it's that far, I can help, he deserves a chance). If it doesn't have what it takes to get at least that far, I don't step in. Is it cruel? Maybe. Think of the wild ones - they not only have to get out of the shell, but dig their way to the surface. It might not be more than a few inches, but they need the strength to do it. That weeds out the weak ones. With the way we incubate, leaving eggs exposed, any weak ones that manage to slit the shell are allowed into the gene pool. The captive population is already weakened, why add more to the mess?

Cresties have been in captivity about 10 years, and there are a many signs of inbreeding showing up. One thing I've seen a lot of is bug-eyes. Cresties do have big eyes, but I've seen some that have big lumps of eyeball sticking way up above the skull, and way out on the side. It's like adult sized eyeballs in hatchling skulls. Some don't grow for love nor money. There are a lot of runts showing up too. The could be developmental problems from husbandry issues, but most likely inbreeding, and probably from allowing weak or stunted ones to breed.

Some hatchlings are just weak because their parents were too young to breed. Waiting until the female is 18 months old, the male at least 12, and both are well fed does help to get good first clutches. But no matter how old they are, if their genes aren't up to par, you can't get good babies.

Sara is right. It's like the chain - it's only as strong as it's weakest link.