Reptile Refuge at it again! [Archive] - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum

TPiorun

07-13-04, 06:25 PM

Are any of you aware of the fact that Mr. Springgate from The Reptile Refuge has got the media up in arms about the African Rock Python that they have bred. Stating the Animal is too dangerous to take the eggs away from and no "python" expert on staff. They decided to notify the media to send a camera crew down to film the mother snake having her eggs taken away and the eggs destroyed. As it said in the Vancouver Sun (thursday) written by Mr. Read an African Rock Python is know to eat people especially small children" .

I saw in the Vancouver Province today a huge ad with Tony Parsons picture and a baby African Rock Python picture with the caption:

DISARMING THE MONSTER!

How to stop it from reproducing.
You'll see it tonight
News Hour with Tony Parsons.
Tonight @ 6:00 .. BCTV NEws.

So to answer the Question how do you stop if from Reproducing? Don’t put a female rock python in with a male rock python. That would be helpful to start.. I guess no one asked why they were breeding it in the first place?

Mr. Springgate's Comment to Mr. Read was.. " Some one else created this problem" ..
My answer to that is "No the Reptile Refuge created this problem through thier careless, stupidity of placing two rock pythons together and letting them bred. They should be ashamed of themselves for creating this problem (a problem they rail against and yet they have done it themselves) they are neglagent, irresponsibile pet owners.

My comment to that is the sheer hypocracy of that supposed “Reptile Refuge” that takes in these unwanted reptiles but allows NO ADOPTION Program because no one can possibly look after these animals but them. They are garnering financial support through ignorance.

I also question why the sensationalistic slant everything from them has to take. The media loves the words Dangerous, Monster, Man-eating, Killer, all negative. That’s because the media wants you terrified. They fill your heads with danger its how they slowly erode away your rights! They know absolutely nothing about these animals and yet they listen to the worst most negligent and irresponsible group of people The anthropomorphic Rainforest Reptile Refuge. I ask you did the Reptile Rainforest bother to ask anyone in the lower mainland Reptile community for help with this big python?

NO!

And why?

Because they don’t want help they just want media headlines of the most negative kind. This is just a way for them to say.. See? They are dangerous.

One last comment, if the Reptile refuge is so BURSTing at the seams with unwanted reptiles I would like to know why after 10 years they only have a handful of snakes? Because there isn’t a problem!

IMHO

Terri
FVHS

kevyn

07-13-04, 06:46 PM

I totally hear you. I got hung up on by them when I posed the same questions regarding their husbandy practices just today. Check out my thread.

kevyn

07-13-04, 07:31 PM

Greg West

07-13-04, 07:55 PM

I just saw the news report on BCTV and I was left wondering the same thing. Why is this snake laying eggs? Because they are housing them together. " Many eat small children" please.... There probably are some cases, but can not see it being any worse than dog attacks. Also, everything said in the report was so sickening just trying to push their stand that all exotic pets should be banned. These are the type of reports than media loves to show but are so detrimental to reptile keepers and exotic pet keepers as a whole.

Greg West

TPiorun

07-13-04, 08:09 PM

I am sickened by that report. They are blaming the Vancouver reptile owners and not the source the Reptile Refuge. OMG that was an incredible piece of uninformed journalism. Did you hear that employe once again state that African Rock pythons chase children up trees and eat them?
This is the problem the media only want NEGATIVE stories. They dont want to come and report on the good stories.

I could go on and on but my supper is burning.. will discuss more later

Terri

kevyn

07-13-04, 09:28 PM

Like I said I called them today to ask them why they house them together, and they told me they need companionship. I disagreed, and they hung up on me. I can't believe them. Someone really needs to tell the other side of this story to the media. This is truly disgusting.

Vanan

07-13-04, 10:17 PM

What really upsets me is there isn't anyone (in B.C. atleast) giving these animals some good press. I really feel there 1. needs to be some form of government regulating the keeping of these animals (ei. licensing) and 2. there needs to be some national organization that focuses on P.R. and public education. I think when it's just a bunch of us scattered around saying,"no this isn't the truth." to all the claims made by Rainforest it's really easy to write us off as just a bunch of wackos. We need a face and a voice in the media and it needs to be a good one.

The WSPCR has been single-handedly been the society representing the herpers of BC against this kinda bad press. They have been doing an awesome job but, unfortunately, the number of voices (though loud) are small. What we need is to make use of this body (WSPCR) and add fuel to their firey momentum to make a single voice become a loud shout. Sorry for the analogies. This "Schrammite" society (BC folk should know what I'm talking about) has been the only other thing besides my loved ones which angers me as much, and when I get upset, I speak in analogies. :D :p

GRRR!!!

BOAS_N_PYTHONS

07-13-04, 10:22 PM

TERRI:

Wow I am in Manitoba not sure if I will see it on the 10pm news, hope I do. But I agree with you this facility is only bringing bad press to a good honest caring hobby. I am sure there are alot of people who enjoy and study large boids like Rock Pythons and others and this is only going to hurt them on so many levels.

Hope the press gets smart cause they like it to be stunning and exciting and create some fear on large boids. I hope they ask some real professionals of Rock Pythons and other boids and get part 2 of the story before they create choas on 1 sided stories.

Cya...

Tony

Invictus

07-13-04, 11:15 PM

Great post Terri. I don't know what to add other than I, too, am utterly disgusted by this, and it's B.S. like this that leads to reptile bans. It scares me that the ignorant have more of a voice than the apathetic reptile community. Can someone provide me a link or an email address to the editor of this newscast? I have some things to say.

PDDM

07-13-04, 11:34 PM

I didnt see this and dont know much about whats goin on about this any articles anyone has on the net about this,i do know that a snake probably wouldnt hunt for kids the kids would have to go into its territory and maybe even bother it this is probably due to parents not watching there kids,oh and in my opinion if i was a snake and you came walkin on my territory and bothered me id eat your *** up too.

thats just my opinion though.

Kyle Barker

07-14-04, 12:05 AM

The first and last time i went there was f'ing horrible. I would rather trot around in avian flu infested chicken coupes than go in there again. so obviously full of god knows what parasites, such ****** husbandy. its grose, and in my eyes animal cruelty.

I cant believe i actually PAID to go in there....fealt like getting tested myself.

Hunter Reptiles

07-14-04, 12:24 AM

every one should phone global like I did and tell them they should be sitting in the middle of the fence not just on one side
and tell them what you realy think
Thanx Jason Hunter

kevyn

07-14-04, 12:24 AM

didnt see this and dont know much about whats goin on about this any articles anyone has on the net about this,i do know that a snake probably wouldnt hunt for kids the kids would have to go into its territory and maybe even bother it this is probably due to parents not watching there kids,oh and in my opinion if i was a snake and you came walkin on my territory and bothered me id eat your *** up too.

I don't think there's a snake in the world that chases people. They won't eat kids. They're absolutely unable to give any concrete examples of this happening. All they told me was it happens more than is reported. If that is the case, how do they know. I'm going to keep on trusting the word of guys like Mark O'Shea and Dr. Fry when it comes to the behavioural biology of reptiles.

The main arguement from the side of those that seek to ban reptile keeping, is that these are wild animals. Again is simply not the case. There thousands of reptiles bred in captivity every year. Think of the numbers Bob Clark produces alone. These are not wild animals.

I really think I'm going to send them an email encouraging them to try to ban horses. Think about it. More people die each year riding horses than any other sport. They are often mistreated and neglected. Infact I'm the only one that can properly care for them. Think about too, how dangerous dogs are. And birds, look at the damage they're causing. I'm sure we could get the public good and terrified of horses. They eat people. It's not often reported, but it happens. Same type of argument.

TPiorun

07-14-04, 01:15 AM

Kevyn
Very good point! you made me laugh. :-)

I saw the inept news report on bc ctv write to them here: bcnews@ctv.ca

Terri

annieb_mice

07-14-04, 01:29 AM

I just saw the late night broadcast of this rediculous situation! They said they had 5 OTHER clutches of eggs from the SAME FEMALE and they were all destroyed as well! You'd think SOMEONE from the news media would question WHY they kept the male and female together in the first place. There was no mention in the later newscast of the snakes eating small children, but I'm sure the damage has already been done by that statement.
I will definately be calling the BCTV TV station tomorrow and would encourage everyone else from B.C. to do the same! Perhaps if the "presidents" of both the Fraser Valley Herp Society and WSPCR called and invited the news media to a "conference" or whatever you call it, perhaps we could "sway" things a bit to OUR side for once. I'm not saying to go out and "trash" the RRR as that won't come across good. But perhaps PUBLICALLY offering EXPERT assistance to the RRR IN FRONT OF THE PRESS, and make the recommendation of separating the male and female. Private offers of help are obviously ignored or treated with derision by the RRR, but perhaps a PUBLIC offer through the news media, well... at the VERY least they would have to explain WHY they are refusing help from experts. There are several VERY knowledgeable people in both the FVHS and WSPCR, people who I would consider to be "experts" who have been dealing with various reptiles for decades. One person comes to mind has been dealing with reptiles probably longer than I've been alive and I'm sure most of the people from B.C. know who I'm referring to... ;)
Anyways... that's my less than humble offering... :)
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

TPiorun

07-14-04, 07:50 AM

http://www.surreyleader.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=73&cat=23&id=265121&more=

here is the article in the Surrey Leader. I used the feedback to voice my opinion. I hope you do too!

Terri

Katt

07-14-04, 08:29 AM

We all know Nicholas Read is one of the Schrammites. He and Christine, his pal, have over the years written many slamming reports against the WSPCR, any of the events put on by them. He is very anti-reptile. He is a bad reporter b/c we all know reporters shouldn't have opinions. There has been much slandering against reptile owners and especially the WSPCR.

It's true. This sort of stuff has lead to reptile bans. Think Kelowna, think Surrey, think Maple Ridge. The Schrammites have led to many of these partial bans in the GVRD. Partial b/c the WSPCR has been at MANY of these council meetings, and petitioned against full bans.

When Maple Ridge tried to ban reptiles outright, people all across the country and EVEN the United States wrote to the mayor and he was totally blown away by the response. Let's try this again, eh?

Scales Zoo

07-14-04, 09:14 AM

Another idea, would be to find a reporter who is on our side. Send them to do a report, but make the RRR think it is going to do them well.

But, they could collect all of the many reptiles living together, dirty cages, whatever they find - and then get together with some local herp experts to blow the RRR out of the water.

Reporters love to get the real dirt on something. I bet there are a few who would love to know the real story, and present it to the public, Kinda like a Michael Moore thing.

So, anyone know any reporters fairly well?

Ryan

CamHanna

07-14-04, 09:53 AM

I've drafted up a letter to the editor and would like to provide the e-mail / phone number of the FVHS and WSPCR as organizations who can put you in touch with more information or with someone who could take an unwanted snake. Could someone provide provide the e-mail / phone number of the FVHS and WSPCR to me?

Thank You

Cam Hanna

ReptiZone

07-14-04, 10:21 AM

Guys Us Canadian Herpers have been learning for years now for a fight just like this one.

you don't need a spy in there at all. What you need is some on that will volentarly open there doors to the media on a positive note and do a split screan you know the B4 and After shots a Jenny Creig.

But have one side true the other false one side proper husbendry the other improper what ever hapend to leaving the eggs with the mother. come and try and take away my baby I will chase you up a tree and kill you too and I am human LOL...

the media wants only the dirt they dont care if it make reptiles look good they want dirt we have pet stores that sell roties and stuff but then tere are puppy mills with one is the more fround appon.

Show them the only reason these animals are lashing out and trying to hurt ppl is cause they are in extreamly poor condition and in the hands of some one with half a brain there would be no problems and nprety much put it out there that if RRR can not take rthe heat of rescues then get out of the kitch and to stop pissing and moaning about how over whelmed bthe may be geting. and for the love of good soome one plz tell the media that Rocks are not colubrids and are not knowed to double clutch I have never heard of it but I am sure that it would not happen under there husbendry skills. well I am done talking hope you can beet this.

The ReptiZone
Marc Doiron

Cruciform

07-14-04, 10:24 AM

Submitted feedback as well :)
Anyone posted on Fauna yet?

Katt

07-14-04, 10:30 AM

info@wspcr.com

The WSPCR also has a yahoogroup, which can be found at http:// www.WSPCR.com.

TPiorun

07-14-04, 10:41 AM

I just picked up the Province and found Amanda's WSPCR Letter to the Editor. She is well spoken and her point is well made. Congrats Amanda!

fvhs@a1pythons.com

my personal opinion is: I dont think any investigative journalism is going to bring this little group of the misinformed down. You need to file a law suit against them.

I just want to make one point clear. This is only ONE incident in Africa of an African Rock Python eating a child. Thats ONE documented case. Its unheard of and yet they are reporting it like its an everyday occurance. Talk about the blind leading the blind.

Also, in the report Mr. Springate stated the African Rock python was 15 feet. Well that snake they took the eggs from was no more than 10 feet a very small reptile for her age. It is guessed because she has been bred five times so far this has stunted her growth. Food for thought.

Its really very sad!

Greg West

07-14-04, 11:00 AM

Can you post the letter to the editor?

WALTER

07-14-04, 11:07 AM

I say nuke the bitch

Nicky

07-14-04, 11:23 AM

I just finsihed writting to the bc news people as well:). I think everyong should write in and call reptile refugee to complain maybe a slap in the face might awaken them to what their doing.
rock on
Kayla

CamHanna

07-14-04, 11:34 AM

Here's my letter in responce to 'Sneaking up on a Snake' (from the Surrey Leader), it's a little long (775 words) so I haven't sent it in yet.

Inaccuracies in 'Sneaking up on a Snake'

There was an article printed recently in this paper that is very much resented by the snake-keeping community (often referred to as 'herpers'). The article, 'Sneaking up on a Snake', makes numerous irresponsible claims that the 'herpers' object to, claims which will be denounced in this letter.
The first misinformed statement points to pythons as "the second-nastiest snake family in the world". This notion is in it's very essence ridiculous; it is well known that snakes, along with nearly all other cold-blooded animals, respond primary instinctively (without complex thought). I would put forth that an insentient animal couldn’t be reasonably accused of nastiness. That aside there is another objectionable element to this statement; where could the author have possible procured this statistic. I assure there is no properly researched list ranking snakes according to their 'nastiness'. Could the author name the nastiest and third nastiest snake families?
Shortly after this, while preparing to take Curvy's eggs, Mr. Springate makes the warning "One mistake and that could be my last." In order to understand how grossly inaccurate this is you must first understand a small amount of python natural history. Pythons, along with boas and many other snakes, are non-venomous constrictors, meaning that they kill their prey by suffocation rather then venom. There is no snake that kills its prey through a literally bone-crushing squeeze. A bite from even the largest python is no more then a 'boo-boo', to be fixed with a band-aid or a couple stitches. Mr. Springate will certainly not be constricted to death, like outweighing the snake by several dozen pounds and no doubt having some supporting staff at hand. How will this mistake be his last? Perhaps he could slip and fall.
The author also presents the statistic that "Left to hatch and grow in captivity, at least two (of Curvy's eggs) will survive to adulthood." This presents a disgustingly bleak view of captive snake husbandry. While I don't have a more optimistic figure at hand I can say that I currently own an adult Burmese python. This Friday (July 16th) I will obtain three baby ball pythons, all of which I expect to survive to adulthood. I have never had a python die in my care before reaching adulthood. This is a far better track record then 2 adults from 50 eggs, and my success if far from unusual.
This is the fifth clutch of eggs Curvy has laid since coming into the care of the Rainforest Reptile Refuge ten years ago. In order for Curvy to conceive a clutch she must be housed with a male python. Snakes are solitary animals and many, if not all, snake experts recommend housing them separately. When asked privately why the Rainforest Reptile Refuge was practicing such irresponsible practices they responded that Curvy needed companionship. Again, snakes are solitary animals. While they should be commended for their sentiment the Rainforest Reptile Refuge's housing strategies are grossly misinformed.
Mr. Springate goes on to state that "Too many people continue to buy exotic pets, not realizing the commitment reptiles like Curvy require." This is a point where I and I'm sure the majority of snake enthusiasts would agree, not just pythons but the acquisition of any large exotic animal should be carefully considered. There are number smaller snake species available that are perfectly suited for beginners such as corn snakes, king snakes, milk snakes and ball pythons; perhaps a prospective snake owner should gain some experience with them before attempting to keep a larger snake.
Shortly after this Mr. Springate accuses "People should not have these animals. They're not friendly, they're not domesticated, and you cannot tame them." I would strongly disagree here. I am very happy with all my snakes, the largest of which, an adult Burmese python, is quite tame and and has never so much as bit me.
In response to Mr. Springate saying "Curvy's clutch would not face this fate if she was in the wild where she belongs" I would argue that the majority of pythons available today have been bred in captivity for generations and are no more wild than a budgie of a neon tetra.
If you want anymore information on reptiles or their husbandry please contact the WSPCR at info@wspcr.com or visit their website at www.wspcr.com. Another wonderful organization is the Fraser Valley Herpetological Society located at www.???????? and contacted at ????????. If you have an unwanted snake either of these organizations could arrange for your animal to go to a responsible, experienced person who will view your snake as more than a "charge", as Mr. Springate referred to them.

Cam Hanna

Scales Zoo

07-14-04, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by WALTER
I say nuke the bitch

I'll second that.

I bet Byron would say the same thing..... and that would be the HISS vote - haha.

Ryan

Greg West

07-14-04, 12:07 PM

Very good letter Cam. Hoefully it will get posted.

Greg West

Vanan

07-14-04, 12:42 PM

Second that! Great letter!

TPiorun

07-14-04, 12:47 PM

Hi Cam,

Thank you for taking the time to write such a good response.

As to the Fraser Valley Herpetocultural Society you can find them at:
fvhs@a1pythons.com
and can contact either myself Teresa Piorun or Henry Piorun
Thanks
T.

Invictus

07-14-04, 03:03 PM

Here's my letter:

I am writing this in response to your grossly misinformed and biased article titled "Sneaking up on a Snake", which was published in a one-sided and rather un-jounalistic manner.

The article was written using information provided by one of the most misinformed people in the reptile community, an individual known for being anti-reptile despite his facade of running a reptile "shelter". Specifically I would like to draw attention to these points:

Pythons are inaccurately referred to as the "second nastiest snake family in the world." This is not only unfounded, but untrue. Some species such as the African Rock python, though certainly more prone to defensive behavior, are an exception, rather than a rule with pythons. Other species such as ball pythons, burmese pythons, spotted pythons, woma pythons, and many more, are known for their calm and remarkably inoffensive dispositions. Of the species I mentioned above, only the Burmese python has a size comparable to the African Rock, but its disposition is CONSIDERABLY different. So as you see, singling out a whole family of snakes just based on one species is ignorant and irresponsible.

Furthermore, Mr. Springate states that "one mistake could be my last". I have never in my entire life seen a more grossly inaccurate statement. African Rock pythons are constrictors. They do not kill by envenomation, and at only 125 lbs, Mr. Springate, unless he voluntarily submitted his will to the snake, would easily be able to make it out of an attack with his life. Statements such as these paint these snakes up to be more terrifying than tiger sharks, when in actuality, their threat is minimal if a reptile keeper is responsible and informed, which it seems that Mr. Springate is not.

The article also states "Snakes like Curvy typically lay between 30 and 50 eggs. Left to hatch and grow in captivity, at least two will survive to adulthood." This grim statement makes it seem as though reptiles bred in captivity have little to no chance of survival, which is exactly the perception that Mr. Springate is trying to achieve. By painting a bleak outlook for the babies, he furthers his goal of having reptiles banned for "humane reasons". However, this statement is outright foolish. As a member of the reptile breeding comminity, I can assure you that less than a 95% hatch rate of fertile eggs in captivity is exceptionally rare, even when 40 or more eggs have been laid. Captive breeding has saved millions of snakes from being pillaged from the wild, and the snakes reared in captivity live full and complete lives.

I submit to you also that reptiles are solitary creatures. Anyone who has ever watched an EDUCATED reptile show on the Discovery channel can tell you this. Snakes do NOT need companionship. The fact that this is Curvy's fifth clutch of eggs is absolute proof of the irresponsible practices of the Rainforest Reptile Refuge (the 'RRR') and Mr. Springate. If you house two adult specimens of any species together for any length of time, THEY WILL BREED. It is a simple fact of nature. The RRR is using petty excuses for housing the two together such as a need for companionship, which any informed herpetoculturist or herpetologist will tell you, is absolutely false.

The RRR is guilty of more inhumane practices than ANYONE in the reptile keeping or breeding community, and this article proves how irresponsible and uninformed he is.

I would like to conclude by adding that snakes in captivity CAN and DO become quite tame. Like any other animal, they perceive the unknown as a threat. Some snakes react to this immediately, but this is defensive, rather than aggressive behavior. Humanely working with these animals, and getting them used to being in contact with humans, has been proven repeatedly to be able to tame even the 'meanest' of snake species.

I am a resident of Alberta, but I speak on behalf of the entire reptile community when I tell you that this article is digusting, and does nothing but promote lies and falsehoods about reptiles. I suggest in the future that you hear the other side of the story from people who are pro-reptile before you publish this drivel again.

Sincerely,

Ken LePage
Calgary, Alberta

Vanan

07-14-04, 03:21 PM

Nice. Would be good to equate the danger of keeping other "domesticated" pets to reptiles too. We all know more than enough about the dangers your dog next door can do. Coming from an Animal Control background, I have more than enough stories.

Bah, all this talking, I should get off my *** and write a letter too.

Bryce Masuk

07-14-04, 03:37 PM

I was all set to post this
Glad to see someone beat me to it

Why 'O Why Does Schramm Do this?
She she so demented she thinks she is actually helping by doing this crap?

I would venture to say All the animals in the RRR would be better off dead then with her....

TPiorun

07-14-04, 03:42 PM

After much running around - we are to get our fair turn!

Henry and Brad are on there way down to the TV Station as we speak with Miranda (daughter and her Anaconda). They are taking our very tame 17 foot Burmese Python. So.. suffice to say we will get our turn. So, watch tonight.. Vancouver 6:00 news!

Terri
FVHS

gonesnakee

07-14-04, 03:56 PM

I say whack her into small enough chunks to feed to the specimens they "keep" as they are most likely all in need of a meal anyhow Heh Heh.
I wonder if I went to the media & stated that I was say a Cat rescue & that I let the animals breed yearly just so I could drown all the kitttens they produce because they will be unwanted & better off dead if I would be viewed as a media hero too. Saving the public from these horrible unwanted creatures. Probably not eh I can't see the difference myself, but then again I'm not a "Journalist" either LOL It hard to believe that a REAL newspaper even prints this crap. I too would like to see a real reporter do a story on her rescue & let the real truth be known. Any of you BCers have a petition started to shut down this HELLHOLE? If so please post a link. I would like to visit her in person myself & chat to her personally, but I don't think my head can fit far enough up my butt to see things from her perspective. Mark

Vanan

07-14-04, 04:17 PM

Henry and Brad are on there way down to the TV Station as we speak with Miranda (daughter and her Anaconda). They are taking our very tame 17 foot Burmese Python. So.. suffice to say we will get our turn. So, watch tonight.. Vancouver 6:00 news!

RIGHT ON Terri!!! Got get em!! Although I'd recommend a haircut for Brad before goes on air. :D j/k Wish we could see that somehow! Any way someone in BC could tape it and turn it into an avi or mov file or something?

TPiorun

07-14-04, 04:33 PM

I wish I had a VCR to tape it! Man this sucks.. anyway.. Onward and upward. ..

Also, a side note.. I dont think making derogatory comments about a certain individual we all know (ie cutting her up.. etc..) helps our cause. If you want to be taken seriously.. act serious.. not all this ******** Rhetoric it serves no purpose!

IMESHO
Terri

David Kwok

07-14-04, 04:53 PM

I just sent them a nasty letter.... I also saw an article in the province of Amanada telling the reptile rescue off.... LOL what a war!

CamHanna

07-14-04, 05:15 PM

I was just doing some thinking. Maybe Henry Piorun Reptiles could offer to find good, responcable homes for the herps at the shelter and donate all the profits back to the shelter. It seems like the opposite of what were going for but in doing so you would make RRR more of a go between then the storehouse it is now. On top of that people would see that for enough money the RRR would modify their stance and that reps aren't so bad. Plus it's great publicity for Henry Piorun Reptiles. If they don't go for it then they are turning down plenty of free money, so why would anyone else decide to fund them? Maybe because the funders know that reps aren't good pets for anyone. But then there's that burm and it's so tame, and you say all the snakes would go to good homes. It makes it hard for the RRR to look good. Let me know what you think.

Cam Hanna

Gary D.

07-14-04, 05:17 PM

I too submitted a response in which I did cover statistics of injuries due to attacks of domestic dogs. As well as other factual and relevant statistics. So I got you covered there Ken.

CamHanna

07-14-04, 06:07 PM

What channel are Henry and Brad going to be on?

Greg West

07-14-04, 07:08 PM

What channel is it on bell satellite?

Greg West

Tim and Julie B

07-14-04, 07:14 PM

I wrote a letter as well. When did it become common place for news media to become so one sided relying on scare tactics more then fact to write an artical? Is the Canadian media heading down the same slope the American media is on? Can't wait to watch the news! TB

HetForHuman

07-14-04, 07:51 PM

Originally posted by Greg West
What channel is it on bell satellite?

Greg West

I just seen something on it on channel 261, but i think it will be on channel 258...

i just keep flipping through the channels..

Linds

07-14-04, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by TPiorun
Also, a side note.. I dont think making derogatory comments about a certain individual we all know (ie cutting her up.. etc..) helps our cause. If you want to be taken seriously.. act serious.. not all this ******** Rhetoric it serves no purpose!

Agreed in many ways. Not only in writing letters to be taken seriously, but also to avoid any libel/slander on public forums. Please stick to facts, no mudslinging or heresay.

Originally posted by David Kwok
I just sent them a nasty letter....

Nasty isn't the best way to get across a point. Calm, well-worded, intelligent arguements are the ones most likely to be considered.

annieb_mice

07-14-04, 08:39 PM

I agree with both Linds and Terri... though.. you have to admit that sometimes throwing a bit of mud here and there is fun and a great stress reliever! Besides... do you know how much people PAY for mud baths? ;)
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

Jeff_Favelle

07-14-04, 08:45 PM

Besides... do you know how much people PAY for mud baths?

Heh heh, do you know how much people pay to WATCH mud baths?? LOL!

Great job Brad M. and Henry P. If we all stick together, we an hopefully overcome all of these extremist attitudes.

Matt_K

07-14-04, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by annieb_mice
I agree with both Linds and Terri... though.. you have to admit that sometimes throwing a bit of mud here and there is fun and a great stress reliever! Besides... do you know how much people PAY for mud baths? ;)
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

As much as it may be fun, we do have a policy here when it comes to mentioning Stores and the likes in threads such as this.. However, i think everyone showing thier support and banding together for such a great cause speaks volumes for the members we have on this site.. So, from here on in, if you guys don't mind, can we please leave names out of it?? Other wise, the threads gonna have to be taken down..

TPiorun

07-15-04, 11:17 AM

Food for thought.
I just want to mention that the BC CTV reporter said that BC CTV received over 150 emails yesterday morning. I just want to say well done people. That was awesome. I also received an email from BC CTV thanking me for responding to the RRR story. So, it shows me that you write - they will listen. Good on them!

It renews your faith in people and that not all voices crying in the wilderness are lost on the masses. We have to speak up!

Terri
Fraser Valley Herpetocultural Society

Samba

07-15-04, 03:14 PM

What a shame that the python's clutch was destroyed. I totally agree with your post, this all could have been avoided. While I haven't read everyone else's posts, I'm sure they are just as disappointed in this story as I was.

annieb_mice

07-17-04, 01:27 AM

Just curious... I just heard that apparently some of the eggs were sold to a breeder in the U.S. and that apparently they have also sold baby boas and such in the past... has anyone else heard anything? If these things are true.... they will be caught in a VERY public lie and I can't see them digging their way out of that one...
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

muirsean

07-17-04, 02:16 PM

When I was young and just started getting envolved in the fantastic world of reptiles, I donated some of my time to the RRR. Unaware and naive to their extremist and ridiculous politics I voluntered for about 6 weeks. I became increasingly more and more aware of their backwards and inhumane meathods of husbandry.

This following story was the reason I left (among many other reasons!). I was confronted by the director of the RRR and told that they had just found 20 Boa Constrictor (Imperator) newborns in their enclosure. Thats right, thay had bred snakes in an already overcrowded hell hole. They told me to keep quiet and then asked if I could house them at my home. It was not possible for me to accomodate these snakes and I quit the RRR with the overwhelming sense of disbelief they would actually house male and female snakes together and keep the neonates. Now i do not know what the ultimate fate of the snakes was, but I would not rule out sale.

These people are beyond reason, and I trully hope stories like the one I have just told you will cripple their reputation to the general public. Especially those who donate their money for their "good cause".

Thank you,

Sean Muir

Jeff Hathaway

07-18-04, 07:38 AM

I haven't seen the TV spots, but I did hear a little about this while on the road this week.

No doubt, I don't have a high opinion of the 'Schrammites'. This extremely negative publicity stunt only lowers it further. Good luck out there in BC, guys, and if any more by-laws get proposed you can be sure I'll send letters.

However, a couple of things I'd mention in light of some of the comments here.

Certainly, pythons don't bite and constrict in defense. Taking away her eggs isn't going to result in anything more than a few defensive bites in a worst case scenario where an absolute idiot who couldn't figure out that you could use a hook to control the snakes head reached in to grab the eggs. However, it would be wrong to say that these animals cannot be dangerous. Even defensive bites from large specimens can be a problem. Anyone remember the pic of Dave Barker's big retic bite on his thigh? I think it was DB, anyway. That bite could have caused life threatening injury (perforation of the femoral artery). Sure, it was unusual, but it can happen. Also, even a 10' rock or burm, in a constriction (i.e. feeding accident) theoretically has enough strength to kill an adult human male under some circumstances. Recall the Mark Neville incident in Brampton, ON in the early '90s?

While I would certainly refute the statements made about rock pythons 'eating kids', etc., or that one mistake could be his last, I wouldn't say that they're really safe animals either.

I personally see no problem with them destroying the eggs. Do we really need more rock pythons floating around in the pet trade? I'd do the same if our burm laid fertile eggs. I have done it with other things, and I know other people who have done it as well. I find it hard to believe that it has made the national news, but that's the media for you. Sad, indeed, that it has been so one-sided.

I also wouldn't crucify them for housing the snakes together. I'd rather see them do a good job (not saying they do, though) of one big cage for a snake or two than having two not-so-good ones. The companionship stuff is simply crap, but I think a reasonable case can be made for housing them together to save space and/or money. Sure, it adds some risk of incidents, but it can be done reasonably safely.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

annieb_mice

07-18-04, 11:31 PM

There was another article in the Surrey Leader today about the RRR. Once again, Mr. Springate complained about reptile owners, claiming they were quick to critisize, but no one has stepped forward with offers of "help."
Unfortunately, this article isn't posted online yet, but here is the website to the newspaper, perhaps it will be posted in the next day or so. :)
www.surreyleader.com
I recall several times when the WSPCR has approached the RRR with offers of help. Most recently was only a few months ago when Amanda wrote them a letter.
Also... apparently they donated all the eggs to a local University for "experiments" and to determine embryo growth at different stages, and comparing it to other egg-laying species.
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

Toirtis

07-19-04, 01:32 AM

From the Surrey Leader opinion page (editor's opinion):

Who thought a snake and her eggs could generate such public reaction. However, Curvy the rock python and her doomed offspring did exactly that last week, when their caretaker - Paul Springate of the Rainforest Reptile Refuge - told the media he would have to destroy her 42 eggs, calling it a prime example of why people should not own exotic pets.
The response - primarily from the community of reptile fans and owners - was quick and vociferous.
Letter-writers accused Springate of being irresponsible, the media of being sensational, and the refuge of perpetrating inhumane treatment of the creatures in its care - which number more than 400 involving 66 species.
People argued that a male snake should not have been allowed to live in the same enclosure as Curvy, and hence her eggs would not have been fertilized (she would have laid a clutch anyway).
Springate was chastised for his descriptions of the dangers the snake posed.
And particularly damning were comments that the refuge keeps its animals in unhealthy and overcrowded conditions, while adhering to a no-adoption policy.
Clearly, the publicity Springate wished to bring to the plight of the refuge and its creatures backfired to some degree, although he said he has also received calls of support.
Apparently, there wasn't much thought given to the issue of the snakes co-habitating, nor was it particularly useful for Springate to dramatize the snake's "nasty" nature in the way he did, which raised the ire of reptile lovers.
We accept the criticism that the media did not ask some key questions, nor did it offer other research.
However, that said, the wave of negative reaction that resulted is unfortunate, and not just a little hypocritical.
The Rainforest Reptile Refuge is the only one of its type in the Lower Mainland. Springate took it over from other operators last fall. He has so many creatures in his care that he is trying not to accept any more, although people keep dumping their unwanted pets on his doorstep.
Obviously, there is a huge need for such a shelter, and it confirms beyond any doubt Springate's key point - that far too many people who take on exotic pets don't know how to care for them, or lose interest, to the animal's despair.
Curiously, not one of the critics who e-mailed or called to criticize offered assistance, although several suggested the refuge should rescind its no-adoption policy.
Springate says he is unwilling to put his charges up for adoption, because it potentially puts them at risk of poor care or abandonment yet again.
None of the critics suggested any other alternatives.
We accept and appreciate there is a community of reptile aficionados and owners out there who truly know about and care for their special pets.
However, we also have no doubt that exotic pets represent a level of commitment and knowledge that a significant percentage of first-time owners simply don't possess or pursue, and as a result, the creatures suffer.
That's why recently we strongly recommended in this space that this city - all cities, in fact - adopt bylaws banning the sale, trade and ownership of exotic creatures.
We too would like to see the demise of the Rainforest Reptile Refuge - not because of how it operates, but because it is no longer needed.

Dr. Antfarm

07-19-04, 03:39 AM

I just sent the Surrey Leader a very long email. I didn't blow up on them or anything, just offered another side of the arguement.

I personally see no problem with them destroying the eggs. Do we really need more rock pythons floating around in the pet trade? I'd do the same if our burm laid fertile eggs. I have done it with other things, and I know other people who have done it as well. I find it hard to believe that it has made the national news, but that's the media for you. Sad, indeed, that it has been so one-sided.

That is completely unethical. What would you do if your dog had puppies? If you don't want them to have young, don't breed them! It really is that simple. Don't house them together if you're not prepared for the consiquences. I can't believe that people see these animals as being so disposible.

The problem is with the impulse buyers. Not with us that are committed to keeping these animals in a ethical and humane manner.

Why isn't the same argument applies to dogs, cats, even horses. The local SPCA here isn't teeming over with reptiles but has an abundance of dogs, cats, rabbits, hamsters, rats, birds, and so on. If you follow the logic of people like Rain Forest Reptiles, then these animals need to banned too.

I for one am glad this story found it's way on to national news media. What effects one area will effect us all.

Jeff Hathaway

07-19-04, 07:31 AM

Not a lot of time this morning, since I'm leaving for Sudbury (and then to Kenora) around lunch, but I just had to comment on this:

"That is completely unethical. What would you do if your dog had puppies? If you don't want them to have young, don't breed them! It really is that simple. Don't house them together if you're not prepared for the consiquences. I can't believe that people see these animals as being so disposible. "

Perhaps we hold different views on things. I don't see the eggs as 'live animals'. They haven't hatched yet. I am aware of the egg usage by the university researcher mentioned in the paper (he was at U. of Calgary). I sent him eggs as well. I see absolutely nothing unethical about sending him eggs to use in his research. I was happy to do it; we need to encourage more basic research into reptiles- very little has been done compared to most other animals. I also see no problem with feeding eggs to other animals, or simply throwing them out (though that is wasteful and needlessly takes up landfill space- I prefer to recycle them).

Not a very useful comparision to puppies. You can easily (and fairly cheaply) get your dog spayed or neutered. Try it with a snake! I'm currently seeking a vet who will 'spay' an adult burm, and haven't had much luck yet.

What is the difference between destroying eggs and euthanizing unwanted animals? Is this worse than killing rodents to use as feeders? How so? Are you aware that for some species (which generally don't make good 'pets', in my opinion), people feed them other species of snakes, or even more commonly lizards, and sometimes they're live? Is this worse than feeding live fish to a water snake? Earthworms to a garter snake?

The ethics involved are not so simple, and not everyone shares exactly your version. My point was this- don't belabour an issue that could be seen either way, especially by the general public. Focus on the stronger arguments if you want to convince people that what was going on was a greatly exaggerated media stunt, which it certainly was.

Gotta go, be back in a couple of weeks!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

TPiorun

07-19-04, 11:02 AM

I have never seen such a back peddle and now blaming everyone that we are not lifting a finger to help. My question is this "Why are you not taking the help offered?" WSPCR have on numerous occasions asked about helping, they’re offers refused.

Also, .. I didn’t know Snakes could reproduce without a partner? Is this a new scientific discovery the RRR has found? I would like to read the paper on this... I think they are confusing sperm retention and calling it spontaneous fertilization which there is no proof of...

I find it all finger pointing and the big blame game. Sad that they can’t take responsibility for the chaos they have created.

T. Piorun
FVHS

http://www.peacearchnews.com/

Refuge defends Curvy's care Critics question why African rock python allowed to breed in the first place
Rainforest Reptile Refuge Society's Paul Springate checked on Burmese python Hiss Thursday.

By Tracy Holmes
Staff Reporter

A storm of criticism has flooded the Rainforest Reptile Refuge this week, following operator Paul Springate's highly publicized removal of an African rock python's eggs from one of the refuge's longest residents.
Since taking the event to media last week, Springate, has been inundated with letters and phone calls from across the country.
Some accuse him of "inhumane practices" and claim he is irresponsible and uninformed about the creatures he is caring for.
Others chastise the 29-year-old for allowing the snake to breed in the first place. The 42 eggs removed from under Curvy's coils were at least the python's fifth clutch since her arrival at the refuge 10 years ago.
Still others contest his statements that the snakes can't be tamed, and don't belong in captivity. Prior to removing the eggs, Springate described Curvy's species as the "second nastiest snake in the world," and emphasized one wrong move with her "could be my last."
"Mr. Springate is totally incorrect about reptiles not being friendly, nor tameable," wrote one critic.
Another stated: "The RRR has long been known to keep their animals in unhealthy, overcrowded conditions and are clearly irresponsible stewards of these animals."
Springate said Thursday the backlash went beyond what he'd expected, and defended his actions.
He noted the majority of critics are those who support the exotic pet trade, and own reptiles themselves.
Many he'd never even heard of before Curvy's situation hit the air. Not one has ever called or stepped forward to help with any of the animals' care, he said. Not before, and not now.
He is, however, receiving calls of support from people who've seen presentations by the refuge, and others who admit they don't understand what goes into caring for such animals but nonetheless appreciate his efforts.
The number of visitors to the refuge has increased since the situation was broadcast, as have applications to volunteer.
As for Curvy being allowed to breed, Springate said the python would've laid eggs with or without her male partner, Nigel, in her enclosure. The snakes lay eggs periodically. The only difference is, with Nigel's help, they were fertilized.
He said the snakes can't be "fixed" like cats and dogs.
He admitted, in the hustle and bustle of taking over the refuge, separating the snakes to prevent breeding never occurred to him.
Former operators Clarence and Christine Schramm had kept the snakes together at least six years, he said.
Curvy and Nigel have never fought, and despite reports they are solitary animals, seem to enjoy each other's company. They often sit on and with each other, Springate said.
"I'd never spent the time to think it was wrong to keep the rock pythons together," he said.
"I was simply following protocol. When these animals are imprisoned and all their rights are taken away, at least they have each other."
University of Victoria herpetologist Pat Gregory has studied snakes for 47 years. Unfamiliar with the week's chaos, he said Friday he doesn't see an issue with the two snakes being housed together.
In fact, he said he's contemplating research on the social benefits of snakes living communally.
Springate noted in captivity, it's impossible to replicate a snakes' natural habitat.
The refuge, which has a no-kill, no adoption policy, is home to 400-plus animals from 66 species. Some arrived in critical condition. All were abandoned by people who bought into the novelty of owning an exotic pet.
Though the refuge stopped accepting the unwanted animals a year ago, Springate said they continue to field hundreds of calls from people wanting to get rid of their pets, and often find reptiles dumped at their front door.
Care of the animals is a dawn-to-dusk job, he said.
He went public with Curvy's story for two reasons: to help raise the refuge's profile and possibly get some help running the non-profit refuge; and, to show the public damage caused by the exotic pet trade.
"No endangered species, for any reason whatsoever, should be owned by a private person," he said.
"No one can give these animals the proper care outside the wild. We're doing everything we can. If these people have such a problem with it, then come help me. They're all willing to point the finger."
On another note, the publicity has brought something positive out of destruction of Curvy's offspring.
Media coverage alerted University of B.C. scientists to the opportunity to study the embryos at different stages of development.
The facial embryology will be compared with other animal embryos, like chicks, and contribute to advancing knowledge on development.
"These eggs are not going to waste," Springate said.

annieb_mice

07-19-04, 12:01 PM

Ex-SQUEEZE me?!?! No one has offered to help?!? What the <insert expletive here> has the WSPCR offered on numerous occassions?!?
<sigh> Mr. Springate has made so many inconsistant comments in the last week or so. I'm not going to even attempt to list them... I'm sure we all know what they are. :P
But some that stick out are the reasons he gives for housing the two snakes together in the FIRST place.... They need companionship... he didn't think about seperating them... he was following "protocol"... he doesn't have the money to separate them... and the list goes on. About the only REASONABLE excuse he's given has been that there is not enough money to build another enclosure.
Someone made some comments on the WSPCR Yahoogroups list ... Who is the Veterinarian for the RRR? What kind of qualifications does Mr. Springate have in order to be running a "reptile zoo." (RRR charges admission to see animals...)
The RRR is more predatory then the "feared" rock pythons they house. They feed on public sympathy and every so often it rears it's ugly head again and creates more media frenzy in order to feed on more uneducated people. I'm glad to see that some reporters are finally starting to see the real "beast" behind the "pretty facade" it puts on.
I'm guessing with all the press this little publicity stunt has gotten there will soon be another "exotic animal" bylaw that will be "pushed" through. :P Question is... where THIS time?
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

TPiorun

07-19-04, 12:12 PM

I take exception to this statement:

Curvy and Nigel have never fought, and despite reports they are solitary animals, seem to enjoy each other's company. They often sit on and with each other, Springate said.
"I'd never spent the time to think it was wrong to keep the rock pythons together," he said.
"I was simply following protocol. When these animals are imprisoned and all their rights are taken away, at least they have each other."

I wish to point out that the only reason they might actually sit together it because it is the warmest spot in the enclosure. As discussed recently with Brad MacDonald.. He made the point that if released together it would be his bet that the snakes would not travel in the same direction they would actually go there own separate ways. These animals compete for food and space they do not wish to stay together.

anyway.. onward and upward

Terri
FVHS

Linds

07-19-04, 03:58 PM

I have to agree with Dr. Antfarm in regards to housing animals together and accidental breedings. Reproduction takes A LOT out of animals, and females shouldn't be subjected to this for any other reason than actually reproducing. If the ultimate goal is not reproduction, than breedable animals should not be allowed access to eachother. IMHO it is irresponsible. If there isn't adequate space to house them seperately, then that is the issue that needs to be addressed, not the issues resulting from it (band-aid solutions).

A segment from my very long-winded letter to ctv after seeing that segment...
Reported: Curvy still has a companion to keep her company.
Fact: It is a well-known fact that snakes are solitary animals. They do not enjoy the company of other snakes, and the only time they come together in the wild is to breed. In fact, housing multiple snakes in an enclosure presents a multitude of problems. Some of which include stress which can lead to behavioural problems and feeding problems, sickness, difficulty monitoring the animals on an individual basis, and careless breedings. Only snakes mature enough and of good condition should be allowed to breed. This snake is small for her species and sex, which is no doubt because she has been bred back to back five times as an immature snake, hence stunting her growth substantially. If they are concerned about the captive population growing, why are they allowing them to breed anyways? Breeding is very hard on a snakes system, I wouldn't expect this snake to live its full expectancy under the conditions she has been exposed to.

annieb_mice

07-19-04, 07:35 PM

Wow, Linds! GREAT letter! Well... PART of the letter anyways... LOL!
On a side note.... the WSPCR is holding a reptile show and sale in Richmond, B.C. this coming weekend.... I wonder how this recent press will affect it and the upcoming one in August in Burnaby?
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

Dr. Antfarm

07-20-04, 02:55 AM

Here's a copy of the email I sent to the Surrey Leader in response to a rather pro-RRR editorial. Forgive the poor spelling, it was late.

I just read an editorial regarding the current issues raised from the story regarding Rain Forest Reptiles. One I would like to say that I totally oppose the stance that Paul Springate has taken regarding the exotic pet industry. His tactics are deplorable, and his facts highly questionable. The husbandry pracitces of this instutution would be worth a public investigation.

Secondly, to say that a bann is the only solution to unwanted exotics is purely foolish and myopic. Banning these animals will not eliminate the problem. The problem lies not with those that are responsible keepers, but those that impulse buy these animals. I agree that no everyone should own a African Rock Python or any of the giant snakes or lizards. There are however those that are prepared and skilled enough to care for these animals. The question is how to cut out those that impulse buy these animals, or those that are seduced by the "cool" factor?

I think the solution can be found in Australia. In Australia, inorder to puchase and keep reptiles of any kind, a person has to qualify for a license. This is a graduated process, by which a person is granted a beginner level permit, enabling the Keeper to obtain reptiles that are easier to to keep. If all goes well for one year, then the person can apply for the next level. Before the license is granted, the person applying has to prove that they are compitent to care for these animals, and I believe a home inspection is part fo the process.

I think this is a policy that Canada as a whole needs to adopt. I also feel that a hefty fee should come with the license too. This I believe will make people stop and think about what they are getting into when they consider buying a reptile or any exotic.

I also ask why there isn't the same movement to bann dogs, cats, or horses as pets? I go to my local SPCA and see it over flowing with dogs, cats, rabbits, rats, hamsters, birds, and hear cases of cruelty towards horses. If one applies the same logic, then it is clear that trade in these animals should also be banned.

Those same people that wish to bann reptiles in the pet trade would also have people believeing that these animal were taken from the wilds of their home lands. Also not true. While there are wild caught speicmens available in the trade, the vast majority of reptiles on the market are captive bred and born. Many thousands are being produced every year some speciemens
costing over $100 000USD . Look to breeders such as Bob Clark, Mike Wilbanks, New England Reptile Distributors, VPI, just to name a few. These are large scale breeding operations that produce thousands of high quality, well cared for animals. In Canada our large breeders are not hard to find either. Henry Piorun, Todd Constable, Don Patterson, again just to name a
few.

I would also encourage people not to discount the conservation aspect of the reptile industry. There are some very well respected scientists that are behind the conservation through commercialization model. People like Dr. Fry of Australia, Mark O'Shea of the U.K. have spoken out infavour of this school of thought. The sad part is that some animals are nearly extict in
their natural setting, but thrive in captivity. The Hogg Island Boa, and the Figian Banded Iguana come to mind.

For now though, people will buy exotics for the cool factor. Some will buy them because they truely are committed to their husbandry, and the propigation of the various species. It is for the later, and for the contiued survival of these animals, that a licensing process needs to be adopted inorder to maintian an ethical standard for the care of these animals.