question about petitioning...

[emilsmee]

ok i'm thinking of starting a petition against the ban of exotic animals in windsor, ont., more specifically against the ban of keeping small exotics and reptiles. some species i realize are reasonably banned (large carnivorous mammals, venomous snakes, XL boids, gators, etc). i know there are some people who are able keep these who may argue but these are potentially lethal and a majority of people aren't equipped to keep these.

SO my question is, does anyone know approx. how many signatures i'd need to even approach the city council? or is this a hopeless cause altogether. working in an exotic petstore should definately help me get signatures.

n e suggestions or info would be greatly appreciated.

thanks,
emily

[mykee]

I think that attempting to fight the by-laws regarding bans on specific exotics is equal to painting a bullseye on your chest and prancing in fron of a bylaw officer with an armful of banned snakes. My theory on by-lawed animals is "What they don't know isn't going to hurt them (or more specifically, you)".

[mykee]

I think that attempting to fight the by-laws regarding bans on specific exotics is equal to painting a bullseye on your chest and prancing in fron of a bylaw officer with an armful of banned snakes. My theory on by-lawed animals is "What they don't know isn't going to hurt them (or more specifically, you)". IMO.

[emilsmee]

but i meant that so many of our customers are from windsor (the store is in tecumseh where these animals ARE legal). so if i got the ban removed, we'd get a lot more business. the ban makes no sense to start with. every surrounding town in the county has no ban whatsoever. i dont really live in windsor, so its not so much for me. it's more of because i'm looking to buy a house but because of the ban i'm staying out of windsor.

[mykee]

I've never heard of a by-law regarding exotics be overturned due to a petition. Regardless of how many people you get to sign it, there would be 1000 that wouldn't. In my opinion, it's a lost cause. When have you ever heard the gov't admitting that they were wrong AND correcting their 'mistake'? In essense, that's what you're trying to get them to do. It's a task I personally would not wish to undertake, but more power to you if you decide to.

[emilsmee]

well petitions must work, otherwise no one would do them right? what's the difference between one type of law and another to a council. it's the people that just bend over and take it that makes these council-people think that laws are written in stone. i'm just plain sick of people who are like 'just sit areound and deal with it'... stick up for yourself and your rights. for every person who is a leader there are tons of followers, and if your bending over and taking it then you're following, but not the cause you think is right, just the one you've been told to believe can't be contested.

[mykee]

Ok. Good luck then.....

[Cruciform]

Don't listen to Mykee.

He shoots down every single mention by anyone of making any attempt to change the by-laws or educate the people who pass them. Apparently it's better to be a criminal with no rights, than to change a dumb law.

Unless you come right out and say "I have illegal animals in my house and would like someone to come search it" they can't do a heck of a lot.

As long as they're not visible to the public from outside or the front door, and there haven't been complaints of "dangerous animals", you should be fine.

You don't have to state on the petition that you even have such animals. The petition would be about changing the law so that people *can* have them. Finding places to post them might be hard. You could end up having to go door to door. If you're in school, start a herp club and get the local kids together to start a plan of action. Kids who are smart and speak out well are darlings to the press.

Someone here in St. Thomas recently petitioned to have driveway basketball hoops made legal again. Apparently some dorks decided it was bad for kids to be able to have fun. The petition stated that they needed to collect X number of signatures before a specific date in order for the petition to be heard by council. So before starting your petition in earnest, find out what the local procedure is, then work out your plan of attack.

Good luck :)

[concept3]

well, i agree with mykee that you will never get the govt. to admit a mistake, but like he said all the power to you, i hope you do succeed,

[emilsmee]

well i'm not looking to get ontario laws changed, just a little windsor by-law. from what i've been reading on the city council website, people win petitions on by-laws all the time. i'm not asking to legalize stem-cell research, abortions, religious human sacrifices, or captial punishment. it's just keeping herps as pets like every other city and town does already without problems.

thanks so much for the support Cruciform!!!

...and to the rest who have or will post negatively, just sit around and wait until your local government does the same or makes it so you can only masterbate in a closet, with the lights off, with a permit to do so.
i'd rather do it the legal way and feel good about owning herps instead of being worried someone might see them and have them taken away. thats just plain stupid to live in that kind of fear!

n e way this post was actually only meant to find out if anyone knew HOW MANY signatures and if it was just going to be too many to bother, not if the cause itself was a lost one. sorry if i'd worded that in a confusing way.


emilsmee

[mykee]

If I may be so bold as to speak for the people who are "just plain stupid to live in fear": I do not live in fear of being 'caught' by the big bad awful by-law officers. However, I am a responsible reptile owner in that regardless of law, I keep my reptiles inside and away from people that might have a problem with me/them. If such a by-law is passed in Windsor as you would like, it would be only a matter of time before some idgit goes for a walk with a 'now legal' reptile around his/her neck: "'cuz it's not against the law" AND IT WILL HAPPEN. (I've seen it in Toronto many times, in bars, streets and such...) disturbing even one person who is offended and petitions Council to ban said reptiles AGAIN and puts even a half-a$$ed effort into it; DONE. Even stricter laws, congratulations. I don't hide in a closet with my snake(s) fearing anyone from "finding me out". I'm also not a "criminal with no rights" as Mike so crudely put it, there are by-laws everywhere, and it doesn't stop I'd guess more than half of 'us' from owning what we want, 'we're' just smart about it. It's their right to pass a by-law, but a forced education on someone who is not receptive is just futile, especially if you are putting your reptiles in harms way in the process. They've made up their minds, the laws are there either deal with it responsibly by not flaunting your banned exotics, or move to a city that is more accepting. These are my personal feelings on the matter, and I quite honestly have nothing against fighting for your right to own exotics. I own quite a few myself, but why try to overturn a law THAT DOESN'T AFFECT YOU? What are you attempting to gain? To own a banned exotic? You already do. Is it to drum up more business for your employer? You deserve a raise. I rant, However you have taken my posts, knwo that I truly wish you the best of luck with your attempt, and I hope you suceed. Let us know how it turns out. Good luck.

[Cruciform]

A petition doesn't "force" them to be educated. It allows the people seeking to be heard a chance to voice their concerns before council. The signature requirements are simply there so that every whacko off the street doesn't end up in front of council.

It hurts no one to educate the people who make the laws so that they can differentiate between responsible owners and idiots.

I get so sick of your negative crap when responding to people. When new people come in and start asking questions because they have the wrong setup for their animal or haven, you typically snap at them before providing information. And it's useful info, and yes they should do their homework first, but talking to them as if they're an idiot right off the bat doesn't make people receptive to that information.

If you're so adamant about not fighting the by-laws in your community then by all means do absolutely nothing. After all, it doesn't affect you.

[mykee]

Decaf.

[mykee]

By the way Spanky, I was simply stating the other side of this scenario. I didn't respond arrogantly, rudely or even disrespectfully. Nor did I attack you for stating your views. Grow up. If you don't like my responses, there's no need to be rude, most of us are adults here, respond intelligently. Don't resort to being mean. Mean people suck.
This is usually also the point where a Moderator comes in and deletes the thread on queue....

[emilsmee]

ok problem solved: i wasn't asking if it'd work or not. i was asking how many sigs i'd need to work of if it was an unreasonable amount that may not be possible or feasable. so you coming in and "simply stating the other side of this scenario" was unnecessary and it was a little rude to assume that what you said was in any way helpful. i'm already determined i'm going to try, and was only trying to see if anyone had any further and helpful information on how to go about this.
what you said was like someone telling you they're pregnant and you telling them to get an abortion when they ask if you have any tips to pregnancy.

sorry, but it was a little harsh, and i did take some offense to it.

[concept3]

emilsmee, whats with you and abortions? your gonna offend someone with that kind of smack

[Cruciform]

Mykee,

Funny how you call me a mouthy bitch in private, then accuse me of name calling. Yet I didn't call you anything. I just said I was sick of your attitude.

You typically respond with a know it all attitude. A kid comes in to one of the other forums and says "I just got a XXXXX. I have it on sand, and I'm feeding it XXXX. Then asks some questions. Then you would usually respond with "What the hell are you keeping it on sand for" or some exclamation, rather than just offering them some useful advice.

You also told me that we're all entitled to our own opinions, so I should shut up, then called me immature.

Pot meet kettle.

I haven't said the info you provide to people isn't useful or knowledgeable. You just suck at the delivery.

[Cruciform]

Anyway, back on topic.

The problem with letting existing by-laws stay as they are is that once they are in place, they're only going to become more strict over time.

Every bit of bad press about reptile owners will stick in their memories, because you never hear anything about "Herp owner raises healthy pets for 30 years.", or "Harmless ball python kept in apartment".

Our councils are supposed to represent the people, but they often end up only supporting the vocal minorities because that's the only groups they hear from. If someone complains about snakes, and no one steps up to defend the animals or their owners, you get a new law about 60 cm limits, or complete bans, within a city.

It's not the average, enforce-by-complaint bylaw that you see today that is the problem. It's the next version of it where they resolve to destroy any exotic animal they find within city limits. Looks at some of the proposed laws being sponsored in the US. Soon it may be illegal to breed snakes at all in some places. How would you like to be a breeder and have your collection seized and destroyed because you posted a pic of a new batch of young on the forums.

Even if you can't get by-laws removed, having them amended to clarify or correct is a big step forward.

[M_surinamensis]

To the original poster... As has been mentioned, local petitions can be the first step in identifying what kind of battle you have before you. At the very least it generates a list of people who might be inclined to help with further attempts should the petition in and of itself prove ineffectual in swaying the local legislative bodies. Internet petitions are of questionable value but handwritten signatures from residents? Go for it.

There is no such thing as a responsible reptile owner who disobeys animal laws either Mykee. If you were keeping animals in violation of local laws, when your idiot *** gets caught, it just makes life harder for everyone else. Either apply for the required permits or work to change the laws, circumventing them is what criminals do and you have no business calling yourself responsible if you're doing so or encouraging others to do so.

[emilsmee]

yeah and M_surinamensis, how better to reach these herp lovin' residents than working in an exotic petstore, eh?
and mykee, your posts really haven't helped. not trying to be mean, but it really was nothing other than a blatent attempt to bring someone down (for who knows what reason).
n e way, enough negativity in my thread. i was only looking for a number of sigs i'd need... thats it...
so if anyone knows how many thats the only response i'm looking for, ok?
also, thanks everyone for your words of support! (i don't mind those comments either, lol)

[CamHanna]

I really can't help you with your petition question but I can say that letters from informed individuals often recieve a lot more consideration from those responsible for changing by-laws. In addition to this, letters from out-of-towners more likely to 'count' then out-of-towners signitures, simply because they can viewed as a responsable, concerned expert rather than just some dolt who can spell their own name. We are fortunate here at ssnakess.com to have a large number of people all concerned with the plight of the urban herper. I'm sure if you further drew their attention to the issue and provided an e-mail address several of them would donate a letter, I know I would. I think it would certainly be worth a try. If you could get together some info on this by-law and where to write to change it and but it in a new thread (one not tainted by such pessimism), you would get some good responces. Windsor cannot have more then a couple dozen paranoid citizens who brought this by-law about, I bet we can match those numbers.

Good Luck, I look forward to your reply.

Cam Hanna

[emilsmee]

yeah thanks! my email address is emilsmee@yahoo.com if anyone wants to forward a letter that i can print out and send to city council. but keep in mind, i'm not trying to get rid of the by-law, just adjust it so it's not so generalized and sketchy. here's a couple quotes from the by-law that should help understand how silly it's worded, and btw, it was made in 1985, maybe it is time for a change:

"exotic animal" means an animal not indigenous to Canada and not commonly kept as a household pet in Canada, whether or not such animal is a "wild animal" as defined herein"

"it's illegal to keep non-poisonous snake whose adult length is 600 mm (2 ft.) or more on public property without license."

"any exotic animal, venomous snakes and snakes not indigenous to Canada, venomous reptiles, venomous insects or venomous spiders"

"any snake, reptile, insect or spider not otherwise prohibited by this by-law unless they are housed in an escape-proof enclosure"
-on a side note, it really doesn't seem to matter about the escape-proof enclosure, i've asked...

if you'd like to read further into it, here's the link to the full by-law:
http://www.citywindsor.ca/DisplayAttach.asp?AttachID=10

thanks for the interest!
emily

[RepTylE]

I am not sure if it is possible to fight city hall but I for one would not disuade anyone from trying. Just get as many signatures as possible and take a shot at it. I thought that the political rule of thumb was that one signature represents a thousand voters in a politician's viewpoint. Well municipally it might by a hundred lol.
I have been in Green Earth and have seen people looking at the herps, the supporters are out there just get their signatures when they come in. Maybe send a copy right to Eddie Francis' desk at city hall.
Still changing people's minds is not going to be easy.

[cjice]

I dont want to "open a can of worms here", and being a newcomer, I dont want to get off on a bad foot, but...I have been reading posts for a while and I have to agree with Cruciform. Mykee does have a tendancy to "attack" people instead of politely giving advice. I will say that he/she does seem to know a lot about snakes..etc...etc. But being rude and making people feel stupid for asking certain questions doesnt help us OR the snakes. There are plenty of other people on this site who seem to give out as wonderful advice as mykee, but in a kind way. This site is successful for a number of reasons, snakes and PEOPLE being a couple of those reasons. Now, I know I am at risk of a thrashing from mykee for this post but at least I wont be the minority..lol...People who make mistakes with their snakes arent neccessarily bad people...Hence, people who know a lot about snakes arent neccessarly good people. Like I said, we need the snakes AND the people for this site. If we were all know-it-alls and rude...we wouldnt need this site for help and advice...I hope I am still welcome here cuz I am still learning...thx for listening :)

[CamHanna]

Ya know,

Once you get to writing a letter this is a hard by-lay to oppose, it's very disagreeable but hard to offer a good arguement against.

'Reptiles' (Jan, 1999) lists the best 5 beginner snakes as the corn, bp, colombian boa, cal king and rosy boa; all of which grow over 60 cm. I would seem like Windsor would want it's citizens to practice on these larger, easier snakes before going on to the legal ones, but that's a lot like saying "medical pot is too hard to grow, with all the paperwork and such, why don't you let us practice with the street kind."

I'm still working on a letter.

Cam Hanna

[emilsmee]

thanks very much CamHanna!

and cjice, one thing i've learned working in retail is that people are usually either negative or positive (and this can change day to day), but regardless they both know how to voice their opinions. the question is, who are you going to listen to and take to heart, the good one or the bad one?


emily