Can they do anything if...?

[SaIiLdVaEnR]

Okay, my mom has told me that a complaint was submitted to the by-law enforcement. I don't know the exact reason for it but my belief is it has something to do with my animals (frankly, it can't be anything else). Well, I checked the By-laws online, and I see nothing regarding my pets or any type of by-law against me having them out publicly. http://oakville.ca/Residents/res_bylaws.htm

Check for yourself in case I am wrong. But if I am not wrong, could they do anything like a fine or something if they do not state any by-laws regarding them? Or perhaps if the by-laws did not exist? Thanks for the help,

Aidan

[TheLionsShare]

You may want a second opinion, but to my knowledge, if a by-law officer comes to your house, tell them to screw off and that's it.. They can't come in unless you let them.. That's what a couple of people have told me before, but you'll definately want to make sure first heh.. If your animals aren't by-lawed, you have nothing to worry about.

[Lisa]

those appear to just be the most frequently asked about bylaws
I'd write the email address on the page and ask for a copy of the bylaws pertaining to animals, not just limited to cats and dogs.

[latazyo]

dont' you have court?

if the po-lice harassed me for something that wasn't illegal they'd have serious problems

don't let them try to muscle you

[thegeckoteam]

They have to have a warrant to enter your home. They can't a warrant without good reason. If you tell them not to come in and they force their way in withput a warrant you can sue.

[mykee]

The Bylaw police can enter your home with a Warrant, which they'll get with reasonable doubt if you deny them access. Know your bylaws.

[Pixie]

Not letting them in for an inspection can also bring about trouble... It is your legal right to refuse, but it can bring more problems... A pissed off city official might not be the best idea right now...

I would check into it deeper like Lisa suggested. I've read through a few of the sections and DID find something that can be used against you:


In the original property standards by-law 1991-111:

(XXIV) "Health Hazard" means:

1. A condition of a premises,
2. A substance, thing, plant or animal other than man or,
3. A solid, liquid, gas or combination of any of them

that has or is likely to have an adverse effect on the health of any person in the opinion of the Medical Officer of Health for the region of Halton or a public Health Inspector appointed to administer the Ontario Health, Protection and Promotion act.

I haven't read through all the articles and only the beginning of the one that I quoted above.

I would strongly suggest that you temporarily move any animals that can be considered dangerous, i.e. scorps, tarantulas, very large snakes... Let them come and inspect and once they are gone you can have you animals back.

I wouldn't try to argue with them... Chances are you won't be able to convince them that all your inverts are "safe".

Anyhoo, you definitely have to research your by-laws more. I wouldn't be surprised if there was more to be found in them about your predicament...

I wouldn't chance much in your shoes. Better not have my critters for a little while than have problems with the city that could continue for longer than just this incident.

Having certain animals out publicly is never the best idea. You never know who will see you and how they will react. I know that most of the "general" population does not like knowing that their neighboor has inverts or reptiles... I would suspect that some neighboor seeing one of more of your exotic animals called the city and lodged a complaint...

good luck,
Pixie

[Cruciform]

If there was a complaint submitted, they will provide you with paper or visit regarding the nature of the claim.

Until you know for sure what the nature of the claim is, don't stress out about it.

Simply don't put your animals within line of sight of the door or any windows that can be seen from public land.

If you have well built enclosures, and no hacked-together cages, if they do come through your place that's in your favor.

Should by-law enforcement press the issue, tell them you will fight the issue as far as you can and contact legal aid. Make a point of letting the city know that you will cost them a considerable amount of time and money if they continue to harass you.

Look for every case you can find of violent or threatening dogs not being dealt with by the city. St. Thomas has by-laws regarding aggressive dogs, but they refuse to enforce it unless the dog actually bites. If Oakville has the same policy I would use that as a counter to their biased position on "dangerous" pets.

DON'T move all your pets to another location, despite the advice given previously.

The moment those animals pass through your door they are considered to be in public, and fall under the "at large" bylaws. Ridiculous as it seems, transporting a snake/invertebrate/reptile in a vehicle on the road falls under that as well, and lets them prosecute you as easily as if you took it to the mall and let it go (at least under the interpretation of the law, it all depends on if the judge's mood that morning).

Don't give in without a fight, either way.

[Pixie]

Cruciform,

You have some good points but you have to take into account some of the inverts that Aidan keeps.

No matter how well caged, a black widow and venomous scorps wont sit well no matter how well they are kept... Also, the millipede is an illegal animal period...

I would strongly suggest the temporary removal of these specific animals if an inspection or visit from a city official is expected. Why bother even trying to fight it when there are easier solutions?

I don't know of many cities that would tolerate a black widow as a pet...

Just my 2 cents,
Pixie

[Cruciform]

The difference is that the second he steps out of his home with them they can seize them.

As long as they remain in the home out of sight of the public, there is little the control officer can do. Unless they have a habit of breaking down doors for pets in that town, there is very little chance they will show up with a warrant to search.

And to flog the issue again, *this* is why there needs to be an organization of pet owners in Canada who can stand up for responsible owners. As long as the animals are properly contained why should they be treated any differently than other pets. We need the numbers to say that if these by-laws are in place, the cities cannot arbitrarily enforce them on a complaint by complaint basis. They either need to provide better guidelines, regulations, or dispose of them altogether.

[SaIiLdVaEnR]

Hey everyone,

Thank you very much for your concern. I recently spoke with the by-law commissioner about the matter. I was able to argue myself out of a $200.00 fine.

I explained the nature of the animals (roseys, emps, cornsnake) and the fact they are never used to threaten or harm anyone, they are almost always in my room, and they are within escape proof enclosures.

He said that in order to not recieve a fine I would need to remove them from theh property. Well, I am moving to Toronto on sunday, so there is no problem there. The animals will not be in the house anymore (that house at least).

The by-law commissioner said that if a good number of us more educated members in herpology and exotic pets were to organize and plead our case, there is no reason why many exotic animals would remain banned in areas.

Thank you everyone for your concern and your help, it is much appreciated.

Aidan

[annieb_mice]

<< The by-law commissioner said that if a good number of us more educated members in herpology and exotic pets were to organize and plead our case, there is no reason why many exotic animals would remain banned in areas. >>

*** This is an excellent idea. We are all concerned with the bylaws that are being passed, many times without public knowledge. I'm not sure about other areas, but there have been several bylaws passed in the Lower Mainland of B.C. that were sort of "snuck" in or passed without much opposition.
Perhaps herpers who live close to each other can get together and perhaps approach their local city council BEFORE these laws get passed and maybe help them to create bylaws that are REASONABLE. There is one bylaw now for New Westminster, B.C. that says all "venomous pythons" are illegal! This is utterly rediculous!
Bylaws restricting "exotic" animals are being passed more and more often and many times these laws are drafted by uneducated people who really have NO idea what they are talking about. Perhaps with some education and diplomacy, we can start getting these laws changed or put reasonable bylaws into effect that actually make sense and are beneficial to BOTH the herpers and the general public.
Anyways... that's my two cents... LOL
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[Artemis]

Congrats on getting out of your fine, and how do you have an unsexed black widow? Isnt the difference pretty easy to tell?

Art

[SaIiLdVaEnR]

That one died, I believe it was a female. However I just obtained three more and they are no bigger than 1 mm, therefore, I cannot sex it yet.

Aidan

[JD@reptiles]

heres a lot of ontario laws. www.ontarioherpers.org/laws . if you have ilegal animals, you just dont let the bylaw officers in. they are like a vampire, can only come in if they are invited. you invite them in, they suck your blood... check out the laws if your worried about it.

Hint: Dont keep any crocs or hots near your front doors or windows, if you live in TO.

Take care!

Jordan

[thegeckoteam]

I'm a homeschooler and mom to 6. I've researched warrants and such concerning police coming in. I know they need more than just one person saying something (hearsay) to get a warrant. IF 2 or more people say the same thing a warrant can be issued. If you let them in without a warrant they are able to 'look around' the whole house and fine you or tell you about EVERYTHING in the house, where as with a warrant they may only look at the thing in question(the original complaint). If you tell them they can't come in without a warrant, and they do, you can sue. They are then violating your rights as an American. I've never had anything happen but have heard of other families who have let them in without a warrant thinking this would be the better thing to do and their lives were turned upside down as a result.

[Lisa]

Originally posted by thegeckoteam
They are then violating your rights as an American.


Aidan has absolutely NO rights as an American cause he's in Canada. :D

For curiousity sake I wrote the clerk at the oakville town hall for a copy of the by-laws.

I received a copy of the by-laws today and it doesn't look good for herpers of oakville.

Here are some of the things that are banned in the 1976 version of the law (I'm sure correct terminoligy is not an issue here), my comments are in brackets

Banana spiders
bird spiders
tarantulas
various beetles (didn't feel like typing them all out)
Scorpians
Giant Centipedes (How do we define giant? size of my car or the size of my hand?)
Giant Millipedes (these creep me out at any size)
Geckos (gotta watch out for those dangerous man eating geckos)
Poison-Arrow Frogs (they might be used by a tribe of canibals)
Iguanas
Giant Salamanders
Marine Toad
Lionfish aka turkeyfish (they might escape and run the jungles of oakville)
Crocodilians
Marine Turtles
Alligator Snapping Turtles
Terrapins
Gian Tortoises (who knows, they might stampede down main street)
Boas
Pythons
Indago Snake (not to be confused with the Indigo Snake)
Poisonous Colubrid Snakes (gotta watch out for those vicious hognose)
Vipers
Rattle Snakes
Coral Snakes

you have the standard mammals banned such as Rhinoceroses, Syrian Wild ***, Elephants, Walruses, Sealions, Whales, non domesticated cats and Giraffes...

also included are;
Marsupials (such as sugar gliders, gambian pouched rats etc)
Prairie dogs
Ferrets


Now in 1995 the by-law was amended to strike geckos and iguanas from the list.

It looks like they missed cobras and mambas but they did single out corals (elapids). so you can keep your king cobras, but not have your rosy and soloman island ground boas.

I would suggest parties that live in oakville organise and get the bylaws rewritten to something like the by laws of toronto. I know they're not perfect but they're better then what oakville has.

If anyone wants a copy of the oakville by-laws email me at geekgrrrl@gmail.com (other methods of request will be ignored).

[672]

Originally posted by Lisa

It looks like they missed cobras and mambas but they did single out corals (elapids). so you can keep your king cobras, but not have your rosy and soloman island ground boas.


That's exactly what I thought about when I read the list. Kind of stupid...

[meow_mix450]

i got a question about the take the reptile out of your door, what if you were at and expo? and you are going into oakville? Then suddenly you got pulled over and searched will they be fined and taken away? Also if Aidan is moving and steps out with his reptiles then they can be taken? I highly doubt it would happen but anything is possible right?

meow

[mathaldo]

I don't know how Marsupials (such as sugar gliders, gambian pouched rats etc) Prairie dogs, and Ferrets could be banned when I've seen them for sale at a Superpet in Oakville? Along with geckos, and many snakes.

[VooDooMafia]

Originally posted by meow_mix450
i got a question about the take the reptile out of your door, what if you were at and expo? and you are going into oakville? Then suddenly you got pulled over and searched will they be fined and taken away? Also if Aidan is moving and steps out with his reptiles then they can be taken? I highly doubt it would happen but anything is possible right?

meow


No if you were passing by an area that had a bylaw and you were pulled over they would not take your animals as they do not reside in that township.

Also (I could be wrong but this is what I thought). I bylaw is not enforced untill there is a complaint. I have had animals that wre against bylaw but never had them taken away even though they knew about them. I asume this was cause there was never a complaint made about the animals or I was just lucky.:(

[Lisa]

Originally posted by VooDooMafia
No if you were passing by an area that had a bylaw and you were pulled over they would not take your animals as they do not reside in that township.

Also (I could be wrong but this is what I thought). I bylaw is not enforced untill there is a complaint. I have had animals that wre against bylaw but never had them taken away even though they knew about them. I asume this was cause there was never a complaint made about the animals or I was just lucky.:(

actually when passing through an area you are subject to it's laws whether you are a resident or not. And a by-law doesn't need a complaint to be made to be enforced.

As for superpet, it's not the first time a petstore has sold animals banned in an area, it won't be the last. sometimes it's through ignorance other times it's from indifference. Also geckos have been legal since 95 and many colubrids are not prohibited.

[VooDooMafia]

As I said I might be wrong guess I was just lucky lol.

Lucky for me my new house is just 10 mins away from the old one and there are NO bylaws with reptiles (one of the reasons I was looking in that area).

[Pixie]

Originally posted by Lisa
[B]actually when passing through an area you are subject to it's laws whether you are a resident or not. And a by-law doesn't need a complaint to be made to be enforced.

You are indeed expected to respect the laws pf whichever area you are passing through but it doesn't necessarily apply to municipal by-laws. There is a big difference between an areas laws and by-laws.

Most municipal by-laws are specifically written, directed and applied to the residents of the municipality. For example, the clip I quoted from the by-laws of the site mentionned in this thread was a by-law of property standards. If one would be caught travelling in a car with such animals, that particular by-law wouldn't be inforceable due to the fact that it pertains to property standards, not people passing though in a car that do not reside in the municipality = non-residents.

There are probably some municipal by-laws that are more general and could possibly enforced on a passer though but I would find that surprising and it could easily be contested in court.

Pixie

[RepTylE]

Too bad that when they compose these bylaws they rarely actually consult people wth real knowledge of the animals in question. I guess that they consider anyone involved in the hobby to be a little mentally disturbed.

I think that if municipal officials really want to apply any democratic process to their lawmaking that they should put the issue on the ballot in municipal elections and let the people decide the issue.

There are bad exotics keepers sure but then again dogs and cats are more prominant pets and there are bad owners there too. As far as I am oncerned, people should be allowed to keep whatever they want as long as they are responsible and take care of their pets. I think that one bylaw that we need across the country would be one where people mind their own damned business. Make the fines for that nice and high.