Question regarding larger prey?

[LPacker79]

Okay, here's a rather silly question. A friend of mine from Sweden (keeps rattlers) and I were having a friendly debate the other day.
I've read on this site and other sites that Carpets can take larger prey than other snakes their size. Is this really true? If so, why? My friend says this should not be possible since there's nothing physically different about Carpets as compared to other boids.

Thanks for any replies!

[AnthonyC]

Where did your friend get his information? I find that Carpets are very physically different than a lot of boids.

On the other hand, honestly, I think most boids (with Emerald Tree Boas and Green Tree Pythons being notable exceptions) can handle much larger meals than people generally think.

I've fed small adult rats to Carpets that were no bigger around than a nickel...which equates to a meal that is about double or even triple the girth of the snake. I've done the same thing with Moluccan Pythons, Ball Pythons, Macklot's Pythons, Burms, Retics, etc. and had no problems. My train of thought is that if a Python will take it, it's not too big.

[LPacker79]

A little more background: This is a picture I showed him. It's my yearling "Coastal that doesn't look like a Coastal" eating a rat hopper. She took it easily, and my friend says that it's far far too large. I normally don't feed prey that large, but I couldn't find anything smaller other than mice and I don't want to feed mice. I've heard too many stories of how hard they are to switch from mice to rats and don't want to backtrack.

http://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v84/LPacker79/Snakes/0614cb8e.jpg

[Kyle Walkinshaw]

As far as switching from mice to rats, I believe it's just the Irian Jaya's that are picky like that. Jungles and Coastals usually switch over quite easily. Second, I completely agree with your friend that this rat is far too large for that carpet. Carpets just like your GTP's or ETB's are arboreal and because they are using their muscles to stay perched right after a meal they cannot digest such a large meal as easily as say a ball python who would go back to his cave and just curl into a ball.

Kyle~

[jjnnbns]

JCPs are JUST as hard to switch over to rats... I got a pair already set on mice and am having a VERY hard time trying to switch them over.

I don't think that a large meal like that will be too bad, but would probably not do it very often.

[LPacker79]

Thanks for the info guys. This is just a one time thing, I've got a shipment of frozen coming next week so I won't have to depend on the local pet stores for prey items. 8 pet stores in this city and not a single one had any smaller rats.

[Kyle Walkinshaw]

jjnnbns says : JCPs are JUST as hard to switch over to rats... I got a pair already set on mice and am having a VERY hard time trying to switch them over.

I was only refering to my own experience, I had a JCP that started on mice, and took a rat the first time offered and never looked back. Just because yours don't like rats doesn't mean it's a rule for ALL JCP's.

@LPacker79 : Looks like a coastal to me, a very nice one at that :)


Kyle~

[Derrick]

Kyle Walkinshaw were u feeding live or f/t?

[Kyle Walkinshaw]

f/t...always.. :)

[Jeff_Favelle]

I was only refering to my own experience, I had a JCP that started on mice, and took a rat the first time offered and never looked back. Just because yours don't like rats doesn't mean it's a rule for ALL JCP's.

Ha ha, wouldn't the reverse also be true then??? Just because your ONE switched, doesn't mean all Jungles love rats?

I've got 21 adults and they all love rats. I had to switch 4 of them and it was a no-brainer. But ALL the books (the good ones) say that Jungles are the most finickiest when it comes to rats. That has been the general consensus for the last 15 years.

Carpets RULE!

[Kyle Walkinshaw]

Jeff_Favelle says : Ha ha, wouldn't the reverse also be true then??? Just because your ONE switched, doesn't mean all Jungles love rats?

I didn't really think about that until after I had posted :p What I said was that "I believe its just...." not that it was a fact and like you said Jeff just because mine ate rats doesn't mean all others would. Just what I THOUGHT the general rule was :)

Jeff_Favelle says : Carpets RULE!

ABSOLUTELY!! :)

Kyle~

[Jeff_Favelle]

LOL! No worries.

Barker book plus 3 others says that Jungles can be picky rat eaters. I've never really encountered it though. I wouldn't mind if it was a male. They don't need nearly as much caloric intake anyways.

Cheers! :D

[AnthonyC]

I'm not one to normally be argumentative, but since this post claims the exact opposite of everything I've experienced first hand, I felt the need to say something.

Originally posted by Kyle Walkinshaw
Second, I completely agree with your friend that this rat is far too large for that carpet.

You say this why? I've been feeding prey that large to mine on a fairly regular basis for the last several years and have yet to have one regurgitate. They're not Cornsnakes and they're certainly not Chondros or Emerald Tree Boas.

Originally posted by Kyle Walkinshaw
Carpets just like your GTP's or ETB's are arboreal and because they are using their muscles to stay perched right after a meal they cannot digest such a large meal as easily as say a ball python who would go back to his cave and just curl into a ball.

Kyle~

First and foremost, this statement has absolutely no scientific basis. The use of their muscles will not negatively affect the rate of digestion, provided the animal is not moving around excessively.

Secondly, Carpets aren't even close to being as arboreal as Chondros or Emeralds. I own 8 Chondros and I've also kept Emeralds. If your Carpets perch a lot or go straight to their perch after eating, it's because you're heating them from above and they're trying to get as warm as they can. If a Carpet Python is provided with sufficient belly heat, the last thing it's going to want to do after a big meal is go sling itself over a branch.

[Kyle Walkinshaw]

AnthonyC says : First and foremost, this statement has absolutely no scientific basis. The use of their muscles will not negatively affect the rate of digestion, provided the animal is not moving around excessively.

I never claimed to have a scientific basis, just an opinion. BUT this is an opinion I will stand by. The way I was taught to feed ALL arboreal snakes, by an old time herper was to feed nothing bigger than its thickest part of the body, I too have never experienced a regurge from any of my carpets but they ARE more prone to regurge than a terrestrial snake so why take the risk? Feeding smaller prey items is ideal because they are digested more easily and turns the mice or rats into useable energy at a quicker rate. BUT this is just what has worked for me, if you are not having problems feeding massive rats to your carpets then go ahead. I personally will not.

AnthonyC says : If your Carpets perch a lot or go straight to their perch after eating, it's because you're heating them from above and they're trying to get as warm as they can. If a Carpet Python is provided with sufficient belly heat, the last thing it's going to want to do after a big meal is go sling itself over a branch.

Is this not just common sense? The snake will adjust itself to find the heat.

[Cake]

Kyle, the size of the prey has nohting to do with the speed at which the nutrients can be turned into usable energy. The only reason it apprears that way is because smaller food items are digested quicker, due to thier smaller mass

[Kyle Walkinshaw]

Yeeess, digested quicker and therefore gets the nutrients quicker...useable energy

[Andy_G]

I've personally found carpets to grow quicker when on big prey, and I have asked around locally and there seems to be a general consensus on it. This being said...I refuse to say that smaller prey is digested easier or of more use to the animal...if it makes such a difference that everyone thinks it does, why did I (and why does everyone else I spoke to) seem to get better growth rates with larger food items in general? It is a given that smaller food items digest quicker...but has anyone actually done an extensive study proving that smaller food items actually promote growth better than large prey? All I have seen/heard is hear say (small frequent meals and so on), no concrete scientific evidence, but when I see concrete proof that small, frequent meals are more benificial and promote growth better than a large food item a bit less frequent, I am going to mix it up a bit and not be so afraid of whether a food item is too big or too small.

One thing I figured I would note...a lot of IJ breeders start their hatchlings out on pinkie rats...around the same size ratio as that yearling coastal to the rat pup...intriguing...

[Tim Schroeder]

I've got 21 adults and they all love rats. I had to switch 4 of them and it was a no-brainer. But ALL the books (the good ones) say that Jungles are the most finickiest when it comes to rats. That has been the general consensus for the last 15 years.

Carpets RULE!

Similarly, I've never had a problem getting my jungles to take rats. All the adults that were supposedly only mouse eaters switched readily, and all the hatchlings I've produced started right away on pinky rats.

I've fed meals to my adult jungles that are close to half their bodyweight with no problems. My hatchlings have gargantuan lumps after their meals, but I haven't compared prey weight to snake weight on those.

Tim

[Invictus]

Jeff, do you switch your carpets over to rats early in life? The reason I ask is this - we have 2 JCP right now, and I had another adult come and go from this house - all 3 are literally afraid of rats. You put a rat anywhere near them and they will get away from it as quickly as possible. I've talked to dozens of other JCP owners who have reported exactly the same thing - that their JCP is utterly disgusted by rats.

So, what's your secret dude? Please share!

[Jezabel]

I've started my baby irian jaya on small fuzzy rat, they'll never see a mouse in the time I own them. I read somewhere that etb and gtp should be feed feed smaler prey then other boids du to their slow methabolism, and inactivity. Even if carpet are semi-arboreal, they are far more active that gtp or etb that stay perch almost at the same place. My moluccan scrb is even more arboreal and feed like a retic.

Also, tha bulge from a fuzzy rat on my ij stay for 3 day max so I don't think they have trouble digesting it. Here's a pic.

http://www.hissnherps.ca/bbij-020.jpg

[Tim Schroeder]

Ken,

You just start them on rats from the beginning and you should have few if any problems.

Tim

[Invictus]

Little too late for the ones we already have, but I do have more on the way. I guess it will be worth a try.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Same thing with my female IJ. She will snap and wrap a rat without even knowing what it is, but as soon as she figures out it's not a mouse (3 seconds or less), she drops it. I'm not worried because she'll eat 5-6 jumbo mice in a sitting and she's by nomeans hurting for size. But knowing I could cut her feeding bills in half, makes me all warm and excited! :D lol

Granted, all I've tried in the way of switching her is to simply offer her f/t rats. I could take it to a more extreme attempt level pretty easily. I was just waiting for her to lay eggs before I bothered trying to make the switch. Why stop feeding her if she's eating so well?!?!? :D

[AnthonyC]

Originally posted by Kyle Walkinshaw
I never claimed to have a scientific basis, just an opinion. BUT this is an opinion I will stand by. The way I was taught to feed ALL arboreal snakes, by an old time herper was to feed nothing bigger than its thickest part of the body, I too have never experienced a regurge from any of my carpets but they ARE more prone to regurge than a terrestrial snake so why take the risk? Feeding smaller prey items is ideal because they are digested more easily and turns the mice or rats into useable energy at a quicker rate. BUT this is just what has worked for me, if you are not having problems feeding massive rats to your carpets then go ahead. I personally will not.

I don't know who this unnamed "old time herper" is, but I'm speaking from first hand experience...not what someone told me. A lot of people make themselves sound like they know a lot more than they do, so I've always found it best to read and listen to all you can and then sort out the good info from the bullsh-t on your own.

I don't consider Carpet Pythons arboreals, but I disagree with saying that arboreal boids are more prone to regurge. In fact, I feed decent sized meals (1.5 x the snake's girth) to my Chondros too....and again, never once had a regurge. Chondros may be arboreal, but they're still Pythons.

Emerald Tree Boas are prone to regurgitation, but that's another can of worms that I won't open.

Originally posted by Kyle Walkinshaw

Is this not just common sense? The snake will adjust itself to find the heat.

Yes, it is...and it negates your argument that Carpets have to go straight to a perch after eating. Give them belly heat and you won't have that problem of them "using their muscles" too much...which is a flawed theory in and of itself. My Chondros eat bigger meals than you feed your Carpets without ever leaving their perches...and again, they never regurge.


The bottom line here is that you're saying that something is unsafe, when you haven't the proof or experience (or even a single previous bad experience) to back it up. It goes back to the saying "Don't knock it till you try it." If you don't want to try it, that's understandable, but don't knock it until you do.

[LPacker79]

I didn't mean to start a fight with this thread, sorry.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yeah Ken, start 'em early or late. Doesn't matter. I've never had a problem with the switch. But I'm patient for one, and for two, I always have access to TONS of thawed rodents because of the size of my collection. Therefore, nothing goes to waste, and I can try again the next night without worry.

The easiest to switch are females that have just layed eggs. After a couple of days, they would eat an old shoe if it moved in front of them.

[AnthonyC]

Originally posted by LPacker79
I didn't mean to start a fight with this thread, sorry.

I wasn't really trying to fight with anyone. I simply wanted to make sure that the false information he's handing out is not taken to heart by anyone.

On internet discussion forums, there always seems to be someone trying to hand out erronious advice and information on subjects that they have no first hand experience with...it's just that normally they don't try to argue their point against several people with first hand experience that dictates otherwise. :rolleyes: