Ok, Upset! n e one have this happen before???

[emilsmee]

our lardlord (who thinks this is all silly as well) informed us today that some old lady saw us with one of our snakes the other day (a cornsnake) and said she's afraid to go back in her apartment and is going to call the police on us and get us removed from the building, etc, etc, etc. she's completely outraged and wants all exotic animals (including sugar gliders) banned from the building. i'd just laugh it off but there is an exotic bylaw that is very often misinterpreted as a complete ban on exotics. even the police don't know the bylaw very well. here's part of the bylaw that i think can help my case:

"6. No person shall keep or cause to be kept:
(a) any snake, reptile, insect or spider not otherwise prohibited by this by-law unless they are housed in an escape-proof enclosure;"
- my snakes, and tarantulas all have screen lids with toughclips.

and according to the Government of Canada: an "exotic animal" means an animal not indigenous to Canada and not commonly kept as a household pet in Canada.

-cornsnakes are by far the most commonly kept snake ever. gliders are commonly kept too, same with tarantulas.

need some advice, what should i do? wait it out or post some info or rant about being protected by the bylaw's shadiness. some people really need to read before opening their mouths about things they know nothing about. i don't like kids or dogs but everyones got one, and i dont complain, even when they're crying and barking.

thanks for listening
emilsmee

I have edited your title of your post, there is a reason certain words are blocked off for content purposes on this site and the use of "*" to make the word come out doesn't mean its allowed. Thanks, Shane.

[Tim and Julie B]

Make sure you get a hold of a complete copy of the by-laws and perhaps have your landlord read and sign a copy to show the complaintant. There should be no need for proof of your enclosures unless the complaintant contacts the police and they ask to see your enclosures. If everything is set up in adequate cages and you have nothing to hide, I would allow the police to view your collection just to make the point that all is well and quite normal:D Have the by-law available for them too. Other than that, there isn't much to do.

Julie

[emilsmee]

yeah i printed out the complete animal by-law section for the landlord and highlighted the ones that apply to us. she said that was great and that she could use that to get the lady to be quiet about all this. hope it works... thanks for the advice!

[mykee]

Though there may be millions of cornsnakes here in Canda, they are still not indigenous. This is also a perfect example of "don't ask, don't tell". Why have your reptiles where nosy neighbours who'll cause a stink about them, BYLAWS or not?! Just not common sense people. You quoted the "Government of Canada" as your by-law source. Each municipality is responsible for their own bylays, make ABSOLUTELY sure you're not the one "opening their mouths about something they know nothing about." Furthermore, I own reptiles myself, but IMO that kid/dog comment was just ignorant.

[Tim and Julie B]

I think she was implying that just because you don't personally like something it doesn't mean you should prevent others from enjoying it by making a fuss. It's easy to use kids and dogs as examples because pretty well everyone has one or both. Not everyone likes dogs or children. Strange, but true. She also did not mention that her by-law source was the Government of Canada, but stated how it ( the Government of Canada) defines "exotic", also stating that if the animal is not indigenous or is not well known or often kept then it too falls under the title "exotic". I think that it is appauling that people cannot openly admit that they have reptiles for fear of the reaction of the community to which they are a part. It is a mild form of discrimination and shouldn't exist in the first place. I was talking to a lady (maybe 35-40ish) in a pet store the other day, while holding one of thier chameleons, and she asked if it was mine. I said no, but told her I had other reptiles and was a breeder. She looked at me funny and said "But you're not a biker or one of those goth people! You look normal." What the heck was I supposed to say to that? Anyways, we shouldn't have to hide it if the law says it's okay to keep what we all do.

Julie

[emilsmee]

thats exactly what i was getting at julie. mykee has completely misinterpreted what i said. people can walk their dogs and let their cats roam free in the neighbourhoods, but people who enjoy reptiles must hoard them away. they're not my hobby, or my secret, they're just as much part my family as my cats are. i don't go showing them off to everyone and shoving them in their faces. i was bringing home my new cornsnake from work in a kritterkeeper, and not bringing attention to it at all. if anyone asks what i have i try to inform them that snakes aren't unpredictable viscious animals (esp. cornsnakes). animals are only unpredictable and viscious if you don't understand what they're doing and why they're doing it.
i'm just really outraged at how fear replaces knowledge. sorry to rant...

[mykee]

I apologize, I must have misread your initial post. I agree with your statement regarding having to hide our reptiles regardless of by-laws. What I have a particular disdain for are the people who use the by-laws in their favour to flaunt their reptiles with no respect for the people who are either scared (be it out of ignorance), disgusted, and such. It is unfortunate that we, as reptile owners, have to go "underground" so to speak, but that's the burden we have to carry . However, I'm not going to put myself in the line of fire and risk losing my collection to educate a few.

[BoAddict]

no you dont have to hide your animals all you have to do is stand up for your right to own them,

if it came onto me and some bylaw cop tried to take my animals i would counter charge and do the good fight and by saying the laws are discriminating, canada is a great country and we are the people that can fight anything we want.

if i cant keep snakes then nobody else should be able to keep any pet for that matter as snakes are my choice of pet its only right, there are no logical reasons to have them banned, i see alot more reasons to ban cats and dogs before reptiles

just cause someone else dont like them too bad i dont like SUV's should they be banned

[hhw]

Yes, SUV's should be banned :P

Otherwise, I agree with you completely.

[shaggybill]

You oughta go talk to the lady who is making the complaints. Approach her in a very respectful and mature fashion and Im sure she will at least hear you out. She may not change her mind, but she may approach this whole situation in a different way, and the fact that you had the courage to discuss this with her in a civilized manner may do wonders for this little dilemma.

Good luck.

[Nicki]

I agree with Shaggybill. It's definitely worth a try. If you can just explain to her that they are your pets and you love them, so are very careful that they can't get out, it may help. Also, explain that they are harmless animals, as well. It can't hurt, and may help!

[emilsmee]

the landlord won't tell me who it is... otherwise i would've tried to calm her down myself. but yeah i'm thinking of starting a petition to have the exotic ban revamped. it should be only animals like tigers, venomous snakes, etc. that are banned.

[meow_mix450]

Well this to prevent this from ever happen again. i suggest you keep it in your apartment and make sure you dont take it out of the apartment where peopel can see your exotic aniamal. Its also best not to tell anyone in your area. Words do spread around, and they end up in the wrong places. So i suggest you leave it in you apartment and just brag about your snake on the fourms:) Just be careful. Some people dont like dogs and will try and get rid of those to!

Meow

[mykee]

I completely agree with Meow. Out of sight, out of mind. Just because you FEEL you have the right to show off your reptiles in public, doesn't mean it's an intelligent thing to do.

[Dragoon]

One thing to consider, Emily...

You can argue about cats and dogs versus herps all you want, but the bottom line is, those are accepted pets in our society.

Herps are not.

Regardless of whether this is fair, legal or whatever, you cannot change the structure of our society. If you fight it, you will lose. You will not change this lady's mind about herps, nor will many people feel empathy for the snake owners. That's just the way it is. Life isn't always fair.
I think the best you can do, is keep a low profile... and attempt to educate anyone who is willing to listen about the beauty of keeping snakes and spiders. Start with the ones willing to listen.
Cheers.
D.

[concept3]

Herps are definetly becoming more and more accepted as time goes by, and i for one would never hide a herp I own, maybe one that is illegal, but other than that no one can do nothing. Call the cops, call by-law, call anyone you want they cannot do a thing, when they come to your door tell them where to go and how to get their, and not to come back without a warrant. No judge is going to give a warrant for a kid with a cornsnake or anyone else for that matter.

[BoAddict]

why is this out of sight out of mind thing so popular, god people stand up for your selves

and why if we fight will we loose?discrimination is discrimination

[Artemis]

I agree. Save one thing. It all depends on the people you are dealing with. My neighbors I dont think would mind that I have a snake, course living in Va they cant do anything about it, as I am free to keep the snake, But regardless of legal involvement, are your neighbors the type who would retaliate in their own ways, such as damaging your property, or making you life hell in other, more subtle ways? To parade or not parade the snakes would depend entirely on how much confidence you have that no one will take it upon themselves to involve the law, or take it into their own hands.

However, I still the best way to deal with such ignorant people is to educate them. As we speak my parents are dealing with the fact that I own a snake. At first, they swore they would never visit me again, but my daughter got very upset, and told them about how cool "her" snake is, and they are slowly getting over it. I say invite the old lady to your apartment for tea, and talk to her about things. Maybe she is just really freaked out by snakes and not such a mean lady. A lot of people I know are scared to death of them, and that is a pretty typical (although unwarranted) reaction.

If you want to be a crusader for the hobby- id talk about the hobby itself and the misconceptions about snakes to people, and my neighbors, whether or not I admitted I had any.

Though being proud of what you do is awesome, ya gotta give points to privacy, too. And if you live in a place where it is technically not legal for you to keep your animals, I would keep it on the DL just to be on the safe side.

Best of luck emilsmee! Hope it all works out ok for you!

[jjnnbns]

Originally posted by concept3
Herps are definetly becoming more and more accepted as time goes by, and i for one would never hide a herp I own, maybe one that is illegal, but other than that no one can do nothing. Call the cops, call by-law, call anyone you want they cannot do a thing, when they come to your door tell them where to go and how to get their, and not to come back without a warrant. No judge is going to give a warrant for a kid with a cornsnake or anyone else for that matter.

Can do nothing? I believe that when new legislation is brought up to ban exotics, that is doing something. I think that as much as we can be proud of our hobby and pets, we also have to learn that the majority of people are not interested in it, and would not fight for it.

So when you "tell them where to go" they may accidentally take a wrong turn and end up with a petition or bill that will not benefit you.

This is not the same thing as people fighting for their civil rights back in the day. Unfortunately, we need to be more responsible if we want to keep our privileges to keep herps, and flaunting a creature that makes *many* people uneasy is not responsible. Is that why you bought your herps anyways? To take them around and show off to people who couldn't care less if these animals were kept alive or not?

Just some thoghts on the "keep it on the down low" topic,

Brent Strande

[jjnnbns]

PS If you ask what sort of things can happen from flaunting it, here is an example, (this message was sent out by fauna)

FaunaClassifieds members, this email is to inform you of a bill in NY that if
passed will have detrimental effects on reptile breeders, commercial supply
businesses and hobbyists alike. This bill has passed the assembly and the senate
within New York and is currently setting on the Governors desk awaiting his
signature to become law. He may sign off on it this week or may wait several
months to make his decision it is imperative that we act NOW! If this bill
passes they way it is currently written, it will be an all out ban on boas,
pythons, monitors, crocodilians and venomous species of reptiles. There is a
clause that says the state may grant permission for a permit to keep and
maintain any animals listed within this bill as pets only, if you owned them
prior to this bill which will take effect January of 2005 if we don’t stop it.
In other words if you own any animals listed within this bill and apply for a
permit to keep them, IF they grant you this permit you may never breed them, you
are allowed to maintain them as pets only. I live outside of the state of NY and
am trying to rally everyone outside and within I can but I need you to do the
same. The governor and his office will put more priority on the concerns of
their residents then they will on people such as myself. Perhaps you know
someone in New York who is not aware of this threat, and your help is needed to
contact them about this.
<br><br>
I urge each and everyone of you to please get as active as you can. Post fliers
within pets stores, get your friends to write in, call your local
representatives, contact any kind of business within the state of NY that sells
reptiles or supplies. These businesses have detailed mailing list, ask them to
ad a flier next time their mailer goes out. Anything you can think of to spread
the word. Also please tell everyone to keep their letters professional and
polite we don’t want to sound like a bunch of thugs. Below are three methods to
contact the Governor and oppose this bill. If you have the time I urge you to
use all three methods.
<br><br>
This law if passed will snowball through other states. A couple years ago NYC
passed a law that banned many species of animals(reptile, mammals etc.). Last
year Chicago copied and tried to pass that very same law as well. They literally
copied it, Chicago deleted references to NYC and replaced them with Chicago, in
a couple of spots the forgot to remove the references to NYC. SO this ordinance
they were trying to pass in Chicago had references to both cities within it. For
the time being we stopped them there but that’s just an example of how one state
or city does something and the rest follow.
<br><br>
Here’s a link to the Bill
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A02684&sh=t
<br><br>
Here’s a link to email your opposition to the Governor
http://161.11.3.75/
Snail Mail address
Governor George E. Pataki
State Capitol
Albany, NY 12224
Use the below phone number, tell them you are calling in reference to bill
A02684. You’ll then be asked for you zip code, once given the person will log
your vote into a computer.
518-474-8390
Below I have copied and pasted the text concerning reptiles please see the link
above for the full version.
<br><br>
“5) ALL REPTILES THAT ARE VENOMOUS BY NATURE, PURSUANT TO DEPARTMENT
22 REGULATION, AND THE FOLLOWING SPECIES AND FAMILIES: BOIDAE FAMILY,
23 ASIATIC (WATER) MONITOR (V. SALVATOR), NILE MONITOR (V. NILOCITUS),
24 WHITE THROAT MONITOR (V. ALBIGULARUS), BLACK THROAT MONITOR (V. ALBIGU-
25 LARUS IONIDES) AND CROCODILE MONITOR (V. SALVADORI) AND ANY HYBRID THER-
26 EOF,
27 (6) CROCODILIA.”
<br><br>
Thank you for your time!
Sincerely,
Jason Sweigart
Illinois Resident pulling for the New Yorkers.
<br><br>
This email is being sent to all registered members of FaunaClassifieds who have
not specifically opted out of receiving emails from the admin of that site. If
you wish to no longer receive notifications from FaunaClassifieds.com, go to
this link
(http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=editoptions), which
takes you to your user profile page where you can select "NO" to this option
located there: Allow Bulletin Board Administrators and Moderators To Send You
Email Notices?
<br><br>
Please! Do NOT reply to this email.
<br><br>
Thank you.

[meow_mix450]

You should keep a low profile....if you live in an apartment or town houses. The landlord can do whatever they want, no herps then you have to get rid of them or you will have to leave. I liv ein townhouses and they say no exotic pets such as parrots, and snakes. So i dont have snakes or parrots, but i still keep a low profile. If you have you own house thats a different story, its your property and you have a right to own whatever you want, but if people doesnt like it in your area they will keep trying to get rid of your reptiles and the next day they could be on. So just watch out.

Meow

[BoAddict]

meow you are wrong in ontario landlords can not tell you no pets well they can but cant do nothing about it if you have pets
landlords can not evict you for having pets even after they have said no pets

i agree with not flaunting your animals and keeping them indoors but you dont have to fear the laws as we do have rights you just gotta be willing to stand up for yourselves

[emilsmee]

i think the reason these pets aren't mainstream is because they only see them on nature shows eating other animals or even worse, only hear bad stories about them from various media sources. these fears they hold on to so dearly need to be extinguished. everyone who's not into them thinks of them as a hobby for 'creepy', 'scary' and 'tough' people, and the reason i think is because those are the people who couldn't care less what anyone thinks or says. good for them, but bad for us. i say if its legal where you live, desensitize people or they'll always be afraid. mention that you wouldn't be handling it if it were as evil as they think (that ALWAYS works at the store, and its true!)
n e way i think people need to be exposed to get over this society-wide fear of animals that are not as dangerous or as aggressive as they think (well some are, lol)...

[emilsmee]

oh yeah and BoAddict is right, there's a Tenants Protection Act in Ontario saying that your landlord can not tell you what animals you can and can't have, only the laws can. If it's legal they can't do anything. They can't refuse your occupancy based on the pets you have when applying to rent either. You know the 'no pets' you see in the paper all the time in the rentals? They aren't legally allowed to say that... There are some exceptions to the rules such as some Co-ops and private rentals or things like that. I don't remember exactly...

[meow_mix450]

but whats different between co-ops and condos or apartments??? Just curious cause i live in a co-op, they say no exotics, they check out houses once a year, and they keep asking about my chameleons. So if they take it away could i say no? or do i have to move?

Sorry i shouldve of done some research before i spoke. I use to live in apartments but i was young didnt know much. If they were to take my reptiles away i would fight them, but if there not why would you bother putting yourself in that situation? Why not just keep a low profile. As for the apartment situation there shouldnt be anything to worry about then.

Sorry for digging up this post, i forgot to come check it

Meow

[SaIiLdVaEnR]

You know how many reactions of "Oh my god it's a tarantula." or, "Don't touch it, it can kill you." after this picture was taken?

There was fascination from many, but also some exhibited fear. I actually was talking with some police officers and they had no problem with it after I informed them of its low venom potency. The fact that no one has ever died from a tarantula added to this.

The same happened with a cornsnake of mine on lakeshore, where a group of police officers (on a boat) came up to the docks and asked about the snake. They asked its species, and if it was venomous, and after that, they wanted to pet it!!! It's not the police who care, most of them have nads of steel. It is the people who are afraid. But you know what? Unless this fear is shown by a majority population in an area the authorities will do jack all to stop you. ****, next people will try to ban everything lifestyle related *cough*homosexuals*cough*... It's stupid. If it makes you happy, and you don't hurt anyone else, go for it buddy.

Aidan

[meatbeef]

I live in an apartment with my wife and I have a growing amount of critters, even though there is a large sign on the front of the building that says no pets allowed. I still keep them though. The landlord has no idea because we keep it all on the down-low.
Everybody s fine.

Just keep them on the down-low.
If the landlord ever found out though, I`d throw him on my george foreman grill before he could say get out!

I`m only joking.
But it would be kinda funny.

[mettle]

Originally posted by mykee
Though there may be millions of cornsnakes here in Canda, they are still not indigenous. This is also a perfect example of "don't ask, don't tell". Why have your reptiles where nosy neighbours who'll cause a stink about them, BYLAWS or not?! Just not common sense people. You quoted the "Government of Canada" as your by-law source. Each municipality is responsible for their own bylays, make ABSOLUTELY sure you're not the one "opening their mouths about something they know nothing about." Furthermore, I own reptiles myself, but IMO that kid/dog comment was just ignorant.

One... Poodles are not indeginous to Canada but are still owned by a lot of people.

Two... You don't live where I live. If you did, the comment about the kids would NOT have seemed ignorant to you. Try living next to a house where the grandparents invite the kids over not just on weekends, but EVERY nice day and let them scream their heads off for hours on end, unsupervised in the back yard. I can hear them clearly IN MY HOUSE with the windows all closed. Thank god I have central air. And we've even politely asked them to keep noise levels down... Doesn't help.

[emilsmee]

thats exactly my point, (i'm using these two examples because i seem to constantly have a noise problem with these two no matter where i live) people think that if they have a dog or a kid that it can make as much noise and trouble as it wants. yet, the same people that have them tell me i shouldn't be allowed to own a cornsnake that sits in an aquarium quietly? thats not fair at all....
and people are allowed to walk their dogs... how do i know that i'm not going to be that one person that the dog decides to attack? it happens all of the time, my fears are a lot more real than that of people who think a cornsnake, a rose hair tarantula or a bearded dragon are going to cause serious harm to someone. we are expected to have our reptiles and arachnids under lock and key all of the time, and yet dogs kill a huge amount more people in a single year than any captive snake or arachnid EVER has. they have no facts to their fears. seeing pictures of dog attacks, i'm much more afraid of dogs than snakes or arachnids (even the venomous ones). take border collies, their known for their herding instict and for biting ( as they do with sheep to assist in herding). and there have been cases where the dog is put down because of repeated attempts to 'herd' children by biting them. why are people with children allowed to have these dogs if their known to do this? and why do dogs get second chances when i'm sure if a herp with the same bite power as a dog bit a kid it'd be all over the news.
if you're so scared of snakes and spiders, why not try to educate yourself incase your fear is unjustified, thats what i did. otherwise leave people to their thing. i used to be terrified of snakes, spiders, lizards but i never tried to get them banned or taken away from their owners. all it takes is to read a book. dont get me wrong though, i realize there are phobias and completely justified fears, like having been bit before. and i know its natural to have a healthy fear of these animals, but to come up to me and say "eww, isn't it going to bite you??" when i'm holding a bearded dragon openly on my shoulder, thats stupid, if i'm holding it confidently without restraining it, chances are its not completely viscious and evil, use some common sense. sorry for ranting but uneducated peoples fears are starting to concern me less and less.

[emilsmee]

oh and the difference with a co-op is that it's run by democracy, members vote on certain things and your tenants rights come after these because it's privately owned by a bunch of people or something like that. i remember having it explained but dont remember the details.

[meow_mix450]

oo ok, well if i have any problem ill just have a talk with everyone and educate them. I think thats the main word, "educate". People that are being educated will have a better understanding of these little critters. They wont fear it as much as they use too. But the media, and movies jsut make them sound bad, when there really not

Meow