the opposite problem

[Artemis]

Ok- so the snake has been eating quite a LOT. And I wonder, can i be OVER feeding him?

He has been taking a hopper about every 5 days since his first feed. I feel like the luckiest girl on earth, as he has yet to refuse me, but my husband said (and I quote) "honey you need to chill with feeding the snake." In a very short 2 and a half weeks the snake has eaten a fuzzy and three hoppers. I havent tried to feed him again since his last hopper on Thurs. Nite, but I would almost be willing to bet money if I lower one in there its going down the gullet.

I thought about it, and somehow in my head they wont eat if they arent hungry, so in my mind its a good thing. In fact ive been practically ecstatic about his feeding thus far. But if its possible to make them too fat, I dont want to do that, either.

Once he is a teeny bit bigger Im going to switch him to rats, but in the meantime should I continue to offer every 4-5 days let him chow down, or stick more strictly to once a 7 day week?

Thanks ya'll

Art

[mykee]

Baby balls should be fed every 4-5 days in my opinion. As long as you're feeding appropriately-sized food items (and it sounds like you may be a too small even!) and you can't see skin between scales (a sign of gross overfeeding) feed away. One piece of advice I would offer would be to get him on rats A.S.A.P. Don't wait til he's bigger, the sooner the better. A baby BP can EASILY eat a fuzzy rat. Good luck.

[Artemis]

Yeah- got 2 hoppers left in the freezer, and then its on to rat fuzzies. =) Yay, on with the feeding! Thanks Mykee!

[nita]

I agree that you are doing fine. Honestly I haven't seen an overfed BP, if they aren't hungry they just won't eat!! LOL, with the size of food you are offering 5 days seems good to me. Try to get him on rats though, I havent' personally had problems switching to rats yet but I still have 3 that I will be trying for the first time on rats tonight. My other 6 though changed over no problems.

[Andy_G]

I'd say skip the rat fuzzies and go with rat pups.

[hhw]

Hrrm... why the emphasis on switching to rats so soon? I was under the impression that regardless of whether or not rats really do offer superior nutritional value (I have yet to see any purely objective scientific data to support that), a full grown mouse with fully developed bones will be much more nutritious (calcium/protein) than a pinky/fuzzy rat (mostly fat). I personally would not switch until a snake is big enough to take weaner rats.

The only reason I know of is to avoid having to make the switch to rats later on. Since he's already on mice though, he has yet to make the switch anyway so it's not a very compelling reason in my opinion. If anyone has any links to some real scientific data on superior nutrition in rats, or any other good reasons to get onto rats early on, please let me know.

Don't mean to start an argument or anything, just putting in my 2 cents.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Because the longer a ball python feeds on one particular food type, i.e.; mice, the harder it can be to make the switch. IF the switch is inevitable why not do it BEFORE it becomes more difficult?

[hhw]

1. Nutrition, as I mentioned above.
2. Cost
3. Availability

Personally, alternating between the two (more mice than rats though) so that they don't fully imprint on mice only is ideal in my opinion.

Given the choice of feeding adult mice or unweaned rats exclusively for a young BP though, I would probably go with adult mice for the reasons above.

You do have a good point though. Do you have any personal experience in having more difficulty making switches later on than earlier though? Sorry, I just have difficulty accepting anything without empirical evidence (probably explains why I'm an atheist).

[Tim_Cranwill]

1. I find it hard NOT to see that rats would be more nutritious. Just look at rat's head... they are HUGE. Their bones and muscles are just BIGGER. More protein and calcium = more growth.

2. Take a rat the same size as an adult mouse, the cost is almost exactly the same... at least from my supplier.

3. No problems here.

As for the age/switch relation, no concrete proof to really speak of from my experience but I have "unofficially noticed" the longer it takes to switch, the more difficult it becomes. But one could argue that it is because THAT snake in particular is hard to switch and takes longer…see what I mean. :p :) Who knows… it’s different from snake to snake.

Also, a ball python that is feeding well will out-grow mice of ANY size within 2-3 months. Why feed it smaller food items any longer than you need to?

[hhw]

My male BP right now is about 8 months old and approximately 2 feet long (using Snake Measurer software). The second largest size of frozen adult mice they carry at the pet store (22-28 grams) is approximately the same girth as the thickest part of his body right now, which is the rule I go by. Perhaps I'm not taking enough account for the fur and should be feeding bigger?

I can only get rats live thus I have to CO2 them myself, unless I buy in bulk which is not feasible for me right now as I neither have the space nor the approval of those I live with ;P The only weaned ones I ever see are too big. The fuzzies I get are about the right size, but as I mentioned earlier, I'd rather not exclusively feed unweaned rodents regardless of species (it also seems unlikely to me that BP's would feed much on unweaned rodents in the wild).

If your BP's are getting to two feet within 2-3 months though, there's definitely more to rats than I am currently aware of :P Or are you starting off with some big babies?

[Tim_Cranwill]

When a rodent is alive and walking around, it looks fatter/bigger than it is when it's dead and stretched out. If your snake is 8 months old and two feet long, my guess is that I am feeding my 2 month old snakes the same size food or larger. I don't weigh my food so I can't really say how much they weigh but the weight range is on the web site (rodent-pro).

And the price thing, you're buying from a pet store, I am buying in bulk.... that's a whole different game. I probably get mine for 1/3 or even 1/4 the price you're paying.... but then again, I look at food size and type as being a more relevant issue than price.

[latazyo]

for older bp's, it is much nicer to feed 1 adult rat than 59 adult mice

[mykee]

You have an 8 month old ball that is only the girth of a large mouse? That sucks.....

[hhw]

I don't have anything to weigh him with, but I measured his diameter at the thickest part just now and he's about 4.5 inches in circumference there. He has good muscle tone, and looks meaty enough (definitely not showing any spine or anything) so I've never really thought of him as being thin or small. I was under the impression that BP's get to about 2.5-3 feet at a year of age, and he seems to be on course to reach that. Also keep in mind that he's a male. The mice I'm feeding him may be a bit on the small side, but not by a lot (around 4 1/4 inches in circumference). If your ball pythons are considerably thicker at 8 months, please post their circumferences so I can compare.

I agree that food size and type are more relevant than price. However, higher price doesn't necessarily mean better food size and type. Also, keep in mind that many people who keep ball pythons are not breeders, and buying in bulk is not always feasible. My family would certainly not appreciate frozen rodents in the freezer, even if there were room enough to keep a large number of them.

Anyway, getting back to nutrition... I would maintain that an adult mouse is more nutritious than an unweaned rat. An unweaned rat, as well as not having fully developed its bones, would be much higher in fat. Firstly, because it's still on milk, and secondly, because it is less active.

And latazyo, we are not debating whether or not to switch to rats, but when rather.

[mykee]

Hhw, I have weight on two of my males, since I don't care how long my snakes get, I use weight. Referring to their feeding records, at 8 months, my now 11 month old male pastel weighed in at a lofty 620g, and one of my other males weighed in at 665g, yet another weighing in at 617g. I'm guessing that's quite a bit heavier than your mouse-eater. But wait! There's more! I also checked out the weight of one of my male balls who ate mice (no longer with me, I dont like mouse-eaters) and at 8 months he weighed in at a paltry 390g. I do not think that this is coincidence. I realize however, that 4 snakes hardly makes for a "sturdy" scientific case, but I'm sure there are others out there who have similar data that they would love to share (hint hint). I have also noticed that any hatchlings that I have had that have eaten mice for more than 10 or so feedings, are much more difficult to switch to rats, if at all. That leads to mouse-eating adults and you already know how I feel about them. I hope, with more data, to PROVE unequivically, snakes gain more weight eating rats than they do mice, hence, the more nutrition they derive from the rat.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Here's one for ya....

I bought 10 balls last year that were born in 2003. 9 of them are on rats.... the 10th is on mice but is one of the more frequent feeders. Take a WILD guess who is BY FAR the smallest....

B-I-N-G-O! The mouse eater... ;)

[hhw]

Growth doesn't neccessarily mean superior nutrition though... it is possible that higher fat content can result in more growth, but may have adverse effects later on.

Hrrm... I've been doing some reading since this thread started and according to some sources, "power feeding" snakes will result in more growth earlier on, but results in shorter life span? I haven't found any empirical data on this for snakes though, only for rodents. It also seems to be mentioned more in reference to BCI's than to BP's. Perhaps someone can shed some light on this...

Anyway, until I see a breakdown of fat, protein, and calcium contents of an adult mouse and a similarly sized unweaned rat, I am going to keep feeding my BP mice until weaned rats are the appropriate size (which shouldn't be too long now).

I don't doubt that weaned rats are more nutritious than adult mice though... especially in light of your observations (just to make sure we're not focusing our arguments on different things). Although I will need to see some empirical data before I'll accept it as fact, and not just a working theory.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Ok man... go nuts. It's your snake and it sounds like you are giving it the proper care. That's the important thing. :)

p.s. I have '04 ball pythons that are on weaned rats and they haven't been fed one meal that was "too big".... just a little tid-bit of info...

[hhw]

Heh, I do realize I am a pain in the *** to convince... I'm just a proponent of critical thinking and I'm skeptical of everything unless I can find some cold hard facts or at least an eloquent chain/balance of probabilities.

In this case, the two sides are:
1) My arguments about a weaned rodent being superior in nutrition
2) Your observations of improved growth

Now, I realize how I weigh these two different factors is somewhat subjective, but let's for argument's sake say I weigh them equally. In this case, the cost and availability factors would then kick in and still lean me toward mice.

Anyway, just kind of explaining the way I think. Thanks for taking the time to explain your perspectives; although you haven't changed my overall standpoint, you have added some new factors and changed some of the weightings on the balance of probabilities I call my opinion.

[Artemis]

Personally- Id like to try to feed my BP a variety of things regularly, since that makes logical sense to me, but I dont want the BP to get all picky and sometime down the road decide to only accept one thing. I do want to get him on rats, but I swear the f/t rat fuzzies at my LPS were so much bigger than the hopper mice, and so thats why im waiting, letting him grow a little more (its head spinning how fast they grow) so that he can have rat fuzzies without me fearing they will burst out of his neck. Since you guys assured me he should be able to take them, I am gonna use the last hopper mouse in the freezer, and then start offering him rat fuzzies. So far he has been an awesome feeder, so im hoping the switch will go smoothly. Thanks for all the replies. Ill try not to make him too fat when I switch him to the fuzzies. Still, though, I hate to not offer it, and everytime I have offered, he has readily accepted. Hoping he'll feel the same way about rats.





:) :)

[nita]

I am currently working on switching my three that I got as hatchlings to rats. I am going to win this battle!! LOL. They have been on mice and only and are small. They also were slow starters and gave me trouble the first year but have doubled their weight this year already but again are off feed for a couple weeks. At about 1 1/2 yrs they are 320g for my male, 370g for one female and 405g for my other female. They are finally onto FT but now I'm on to get them on rats. My adoptees that I got originally weighed 960g, 1006g, 1100g, 1060g are now at 1400g, 1760g, 1295g, 1395g. All on rats or rabbits.

[mykee]

Nita, Wow! That's terrible, those are some small balls! For a year and a half, they should all easily be WAY up over 1000g. Good luck on switching them over.

[Vengeance]

If your Ball python is 8 months old he should be able to take small rats, which at that point weigh about 50 grams. Full bone structure is complete, hair is on the entire body. I've allways tried to feed according to 1/4 the weight. So when my ball weighed 300 grams I was feeding 50 - 75 gram rats. He is now just tiping over the 600G mark and I'm feeding 100 - 125 Gram rats (I know it's not 1/4 but it's the most appropriate size). You would be really supprisied what your Ball would be able to get down if you tried. Just as an example, here is a size comparison of what my Ball python is currently on.

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/3606Rat-med.JPG

He ate a rat that sized just 2 days ago.

[mykee]

Vengeance, excellent comparison shot for any aged/sized snake. However, that looks more like 15%-20% of the snakes weight, which, incidentally, is where I like to stay. With smaller, more frequent meals, I notice my balls digest quicker and are ready for food a few days earlier then when I used to try to pop them with huge food items.