Rat growth: speeding it up???

[ChristinaM]

To the point:

Is there such thing as power feeding rats, to get them to the size you want?

I got an awesome deal on a whole bunch of rats....some are kept for breeding, others need growing before becoming food.

I have enough in the freezer of under 100grams.

The rats I got range 30-50g ( already whacked the bigger ones). So I'd like to get them above 100gr asap ( cost me less :) ) but I want to do this without comprimising their nutritional value.

What's the best way/food/etc to grow them quickly, but not grow them fat.?

Thanks :)

[mykee]

Nothing. Feed them a high quality diet (not dog food, a rat lab block; Mazuri for ex.) , and wait it out.

[Linds]

Yes, you can definitely "powerfeed" rodents. Increasing the amount of protein in their diet will encourage quicker development in growing rats.

[mykee]

Yes you can get extra protein into them, as long as you don't mind sores all over their bodies, lots of stillborns and small litters.

[Lisa]

protein will help growth. it's something that has been done with cattle, pigs and other farm animals to increase growth. also done with iggs on ig farms... as long as you don't feed the breeders high protien you shouldn't be having an issue with the later two issues mykee mentioned.

[Vanan]

I do have to mention a case study we experience with a young rat. Back when we knew jack about rats. Fed it cat food for a bit to grow it up faster. The increase in protein, damaged the liver and resulted in a dead rat. Happens in roaches too. There's only a certain amount of increase in protein which you can do safely without resulting in organ damage/failure.

I think the safest way in getting larger rats is to go with genetics. Some morphs, and certain line-bred generations consistently produce larger rats. IME, I've found the variegated/hooded rats to be the fastest growing, compared to albinos, blacks and agoutis.

Edit:
Disclaimer: My experience have only been based on my last 5 mths of rat keeping/breeding. In no way an expert compared to some here. :)

[annieb_mice]

As Vanan and Mykee pointed out, there are some problems with feeding a high amount of protein to your rats, however you CAN give them "treats" which would help them to grow a bit faster. I have "pet rats" and "feeders/breeders." I noticed that when I was giving my pets some extra treats such as toast with peanut butter or bits of cooked eggs or cooked meats, ect, they grew a lot faster and bigger than the feeders/breeders. At first I thought it was just genetics, and in some small part, it probably is, but when I started giving the feeders/breeders "treats" as well, there was a definate improvement in the growth rate and size. Now ALL my rats get "treats" as part of their regular diet.

If you are wanting your rats to grow really fast... unfortunately, unless you want to feed them cheap crappy dog food, there really isn't a safe healthy way to do that. You CAN add a BIT more protein to their diets, but don't over do it or you will get health problems.
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[Linds]

Originally posted by Vanan
I do have to mention a case study we experience with a young rat. Back when we knew jack about rats. Fed it cat food for a bit to grow it up faster. The increase in protein, damaged the liver and resulted in a dead rat. Happens in roaches too. There's only a certain amount of increase in protein which you can do safely without resulting in organ damage/failure.


Cat food is definitely super high to be fed as a staple (~30% ), I use a sprinkling of it for my breeders and babies. Although I'm not inclined to believe that the high protein would be soley to blame, as the formulation in most cat and dog foods (even the "high quality" stuff) is absolutely disgusting, and eventually causes cancer, allergies, skin conditions, and organ damage in cats/dogs, and rodents such as mice and rats will show symptoms much quicker than cats/dogs.

Originally posted by mykee
Yes you can get extra protein into them, as long as you don't mind sores all over their bodies, lots of stillborns and small litters.

Hmmmm... in the years and years of breeding rats I've never encountered rats with sores or poor litters in my colonies. My breeders are all very healthy and consistently throw litters of 14-18 babies, and actually yesterday one of my females dropped a litter of 21. My breeders aren't powerfed, but they are offered higher protein than most of the diets out there (18%-20%) to support their constant breeding activity. As Vanan mentioned above, you can increase the protein to a point before causing any problems. As long as it isn't overdone. I don't powerfeed my feeders anymore, just because I do not have a need for them to grow super fast, but I use to up the protein on my feeders diets with no bad effect. Designated feeders can have more protein since they do not need to live a long life. Powerfeeding has been proven time and time again it isn't healthy for any type of animals long-term health, the excessively quick development can cause damage to the overall structure and the liver might burn out as well. This however doesn't destroy the nutrient composition of the prey items in terms of feeding, and the animals won't be around long enough for the effects to show. The problems associated with a powerfed rodent have no relevance to the animal eating them, as they are pretty much structural problems and decreased organ function. All nutrients and composition are still there.

edit to add: As Lisa mentioned, this is also done in animals we eat. Food doesn't live long enough to experience much, and any associated problems do not interfere with them as a food source. I guarantee the food we eat wouldn't live a long time if given the opportunity.

[vanderkm]

One shortcut to increasing growth rate is to keep back only the males - they put on weight much faster and much more efficiently than females and it is predominately muscle weight. We routinely kept only males to grow out to larger sizes and killed off female rodents not needed for breeding, as long as odor control is not an issue (boys do smell worse). Even if you don't kill off the females, make sure to separate the sexes - house completely away from each other (separate rooms) if possible to keep the focus on feeding and not stimulate the drive for breeding.


mary v.

[mykee]

Assuming that a good quality rat block is fed, (containing 16-18% protein), upping that (feeding kitten or cat food (20%+)) HAS caused some of my past breeders to get sores, decrease baby production and just an overall poor quality of babies. Fact.

[Linds]

How can you be sure it was the protein and not some other ingredient in the kitten food that caused it? The low-quality stuff causes allergic reactions in cats, so why not rats? Or maybe you were feeding too much of it? It doesn't take a lot since it is ~30% protein and ~20% fat. For years my breeders have been fed 18%-20% protein and never had any sores and only good litters to speak of. Personally when I've fed lab blocks the results sucked. I'm also not a fan of the formulation. Rodent blocks contain a good portion of soybean meal and other soy products which inhibits calcium uptake in reptiles and contains natural carcinogens.

[Vanan]

Excellent thread guys! Thanks for sharing your info with all of us. :)

On a side note, how exactly do you powerfeed your rats? Mine have food and water available 24/7. Not sure if that is considered powerfeeding. Or are we talking bout protein levels?

[mykee]

"Powerfeeding" is not possible. Humans are the only species stupid enough to eat to complete excess. An animal will only eat as much as it wants, unless you're going to sit their with your snake/rat and literally shove food down their gullet.

[annieb_mice]

Originally posted by Linds
Personally when I've fed lab blocks the results sucked. I'm also not a fan of the formulation. Rodent blocks contain a good portion of soybean meal and other soy products which inhibits calcium uptake in reptiles and contains natural carcinogens.

*** Linds.... I have had poor results with the lab blocks too, which is why I won't use it again. :P I'm curious though... where did you get your information about the carcinogens in the lab blocks? I knew about the soy products being used. I would really appreciate any information you have about the rodent lab blocks. I don't use them myself, but I like to learn new stuff... :)
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[Linds]

annieb,
They aren't in relation to the actual lab blocks. I read in Reptiles magazine about the soy preventing calcium uptake when I used to work at Kris' Reptiles. I learned the cancer-causing stuff a year ago on Ask Dr. Bob on television. I believe it was a study in Europe. I went to the site and was unable to find the information though :confused: I know in the past it was always though soy prevented cancer, but recently I've heard in a few places about all the natural toxins in soy. I turned up a bunch of older links about preventative qualities, I was however, able to find these links (they also support what I read in Reptiles)...

http://www.mercola.com/2000/feb/13/more_on_soy.htm
http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/9/soy_research_update.htm

In repsonse to powerfeeding,
In my opinion, powerfeeding doesn;'t necessarily have to be overfeeding. It can be feeding to acheive maximum growth in minimal time as well.

[mykee]

"Superfeeding" "powerfeeding" Could I get an explanation of this? I feed my snakes/rats/dog/wife......if they're hungry....they'll eat! If they're not hungry.....they won't eat! I would love 'instructions' as it were on how to achieve a 'powerfed', or 'superfed' snake and/or rat. If I feel like trying to feed my snakes every four days, and they eat, is that "powerfeeding"? If that's a definition, I say PSHHHHHHAWW!!

[annieb_mice]

Well... my personal opinion of "powerfeeding" is when you keep stuffing food into a snake's mouth as it is eating, forcing it to eat three to four times what it would NORMALLY eat. This is DIFFERENT from offering food to a snake at different times. I know of people who feed their snakes every couple of days... they aren't stuffing the mouse down the snake's throat, but if it eats, fine... if it doesn't, that's fine too. They don't force the issue.

Everyone has their own opinions of what "powerfeeding" is... I think if your snake has a NORMAL look to it... and doesn't have an abnormally HUGE body with a teeny head.... I doubt you're powerfeeding.... but I'm NOT a snake expert and don't pretend to be... ;) LOL!
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[RICHJ]

I think the original post is referring to power feeding as a good recipe for maximum weight gain in a short time.( the emphasis isn't on a good balnced long term diet)
Does anyone have any contacts with commercial breeders - surely they can point us in the right direction.

[ChristinaM]

Wow, thanks everyone. This has turned into a very informative thread. You guys amaze me sometimes :)

My original question was mainly directed to this example:

I have a bunch of 70gram rats, that need to be a minimum of 100g-150g before freezing. So I would like to speed up growth if possible, will NO ill effects, so I can freeze.

Not being an expert on a rats metabolism/digestive system, etc. I wasn't sure if it was possible to pump up certain foods to acheive maximum growth potential.

Currently, I feed my rats the following:
- mixtures from the petstore for guinea pigs and hamsters ( they had a rodent prob in the store, resulting in me getting a bunch of chewed bags for cheap $ )
- peanuts, sunflower seeds
- dog treats ( milkbone type, to keep the rats teeth trimmed )
- kitten food for nursing, or pregnant rats
- fresh veggies ( stalks, that my lizards don't eat, plus salads )
- lab blocks
- occassional treat of bread dipped in milk ( maybe once a wk )
- cereal, pasta, ( example: this morning they got a mix of cheerio's, crackers and peanuts )

I don't really have a specific feeding regimen....maybe I should though????

thoughts?

[annieb_mice]

Just a very quick comment as I am just heading out the door to get some stuff done....
Peanuts and sunflower seeds are VERY fatty and if you feed too much of them, the result can be a very overweight rat, which is obviously not what you want.
Okay... gotta go now... I'm sure others will be glad to jump in and respond about your feeding "program"... :)
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[Batdad]

I just want to add one thing; I have noticed that overcrowding seems to effect growth rate. While it may not affect the resulting size, it does seem to effect the time it takes to get there.

Just my MHO
Bruce