Large Egg [Archive] - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum

Stockwell

06-19-04, 01:31 AM

This example of egg binding is fairly common and certainly not isolated to Brian, nor is it specific to Hondurans. Many captive colubrids seem to retain eggs. My female Hondo had about 3 stuck in her last year, and the year before she also carried slugs most of the summer
Not quite that big, but not far off. When they are down close to the cloaca I force them out.I do it under water in the bath tub, as the water acts as a lubricant as the egg starts to emerge and stretch the cloaca. It requires a great deal of force which must be applied between the ribs on the belly side to prevent breaking the ribs
I have had some bad experiences with trying to push out eggs that are up much higher than a few inches. Sometimes they bond to the oviduct and the pressure required to move the egg, simply ruptures the oviduct and the egg comes out wrapped in a thin membrane, which was the snakes reproductive tract.
Aspiration(sucking the yolk out through the abdominal wall) is popular and often successful but sometimes not, and its not without risk. If the egg has bonded to the oviduct wall, then it may not move even with the yolk sucked out of it. Of course if the egg is fertile and contains a dead embryo , aspiration probably wont be entirely effective as there is too much solids , and there is higher risk of infection as some of the contents leaks into the perforated oviduct and body cavity.
Our fellow breeder,Simon Sansom aspriated a Cave Rat egg last year, only to find she ejected her entire oviduct a couple weeks later... The egg was probably bonded to the oviduct. She pushed the egg out but the egg was not free to slide in the oviduct, so the entire oviduct was pushed out with the collapsed ova
Brian that egg looks like it is getting fairly close to the cloaca. The meal will give her a bit of strength and she might push it further, but that is an awfully big egg and the female will probably not be able to generate the force required to push that out.
I can't quite see where the vent is in the photo, but it looks like the egg is getting close to the cloaca...
A mass that size will probably prevent normal defecation, so it will need to come out or at least be aspirated if it's possible...
Here's a pic of one of my hondo's retained eggs
last year, and what it looked like after I successfully pushed it out.. It was big, and fertile, containing a dead embryo
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1801retainedegg.jpg
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/1801hondoeggretained.jpg

jwsporty

06-19-04, 04:05 AM

Thanks Roy for the insight, likewise I am concerned about my girl. My #3 cali, did the same thing and she hauled that last egg around with her for almost three weeks. She was successful though in dropping it and is non the worse for wear. I gave her a small food item once a week until she dropped.

Hoping everything is ok.

Cheers
Jim

Classic

06-19-04, 06:02 AM

Thanks Roy, I'll try some pushing later on if she has not made any progress. Thanks for the advice.
I am thinking that aspiration may be to late as the rest of the clutch was laid 10 days ago. I'll try some more warm baths and gentle massaging a couple more times and work her up to more forcful pushing.

Thanks for the info Roy.
Brian

Simon

06-19-04, 06:09 AM

Ouch
that is a huge egg stuck inside.

I basically do what Roy does with the egg bound. If it is close to the vent, I try to push it out with a little force. But of course do not do it with a lot of force, just gentlely massage it down. I also let the snake 'run about' and with the motion of it sliding down (anywhere that is considered clean) would help it push the egg a bit futher down.

If the egg is not near the vent, I usually do nothing. Just offer it a large meal (if it would take it, if not try a small meal) and make the snake push it down with the poop. I find that it is more effective to let the snake do its own pushing if the egg(s) are too high up. It is a risk, but I don't see it any better with forcing the eggs down manually. I don't usally trust the vets with these kinds of things. Most of the time when eggs are actually removed by surgery......most (all in my case) have died after the surgery of removing the eggs. I think that the cut was either too big or something like that. So I don't trust my vet in doing egg bound surgery. I myself removing eggs with the water with gentle massage, and giving it large meals to help push the eggs have better chance.

I had 3 females that had egg bound this year. 1 had at least 12 eggs bounded and she ended up dead but I had success in getting 9 out...and the other 2 had 3 and 4 eggs inside. With the gentle massage and large meals did good for them and passed out the eggs with no problem at all.

I have heard from Don Soderberg (South Montain Reptiles) that he got an albino western hognose to get the egg bounded eggs out in a period of 7 months. The western had 7 eggs inside. So basically 1 a month.

So don't lose hope. Keep it up! At least its eating right?
So that is already a great sign!! (My female that had 12 eggs or more inside didn't eat at all and died.....) So at least your is eating. Which is already a great sign~!!

Good luck and hope to hear that the gal passed the huge egg out soon~~~

Don't get overly stressed out~

All the best!!

Classic

06-19-04, 08:18 AM

Thanks for the helpful hints Simon. I appreciate it very much.

Brian

BoidKeeper

06-19-04, 08:43 AM

That's not good Brian but I'm sure both of you will be fine. Keep us posted. Also I'm sure Dr. McGregor could be of help too.
Good luck,
Trevor

Stockwell

06-19-04, 11:41 AM

I think it's good that we discuss this topic openly, as I've found some breeders are embarrassed by it and tend to avoid revealing that they have had similar problems. In this short thread several have already come forward and indicated similar problems... Believe me it's widespread.
There are lots of us in the same boat and i think the incidence of this is rising in captive colubrids, or at least the number of breeders is growing therefore I hear about it much more.
Oddly enough egg binding is not a common problem in captive Pythons. I have discussed this with Dr. Phil Blais, and he speculates that since Pythons are normally quite inactive tending to lay in wait for their prey, that they might be less susceptible to getting out of shape in small enclosures.
Colubrids on the other hand normally are always on the move and probabaly travel several miles over the course of a season, up down around over...
Colubrids in the wild get alot of exercise, however in captivity they are confined to small cages and rack boxes , probably overfed fatty lab rodents, and get very little excercise. This is in stark contrast to many Pythons that sit on their arses for days on end both in the wild and in captivity. It might well be that they are less likely to lose muscle tone, since they don't normally move around as much as colubrids.
Over feeding and breeding too young also appear to be factors in egg binding.
Last year I fed huge meals to my Honduran with hopes of increasing the clutch size.
It worked, to some extent, but the female laid a dozen eggs, but apparently just ran out of steam on the last 3. So 15 Honduran eggs would have been great, but its not much good if she retains the last 3 which is what happened.
This year I fed her only moderately. She laid 8 good eggs and 4 slugs, but they all came out. They were also slightly smaller.
It could be that over feeding produces eggs with higher yolk volumes, and greater diameter thus increasing deliver problems.
I also have my suspicions that interfering during egg laying is somtimes to blame for egg retention.
There is a widspread habit of photographing layings ,removing eggs while they are being deposited, and otherwise disturbing the female. I'm guitly of this as well, but think this may be bad practice.
If a female snake gets spooked, and fears she is in danger, the smooth process of oviposition might well be curtailed.
I have noticed over the years that when I find surprise clutches they are usually complete with no retained eggs.
Its females I tamper with that seem to end up with incomplete deliveries.

These above comments are speculation on my part, but I present these ideas only for consideration.
We have little scientific data to confirm the exact causes of egg binding, but I suspect it doesn't happen in nature the way it does in captivety, so if that is true, we're doing something wrong and breeders must keep an open mind to all the possible causes,and continue to experiment to find solutions.
To summarize.. I think I can make a few basic recommendations.
1. Don't over feed
2. Don't breed snakes too young, or too small
3. Give breeder colubrids as much room as possible
4. Provide branches and rough substrates to allow
for better muscle tone and excercise

Classic

06-19-04, 01:15 PM

That's alot of fantastic observations. To ad a couple of my own.
With the two female hondurans i bred this year there a alot of differences in thrie respective body dispositions.
Subject A. is a long female with a history of successful breeding. She's 61 inches and her weight before laying was 1330 grams.. Not over weight. She produced 15 viable and 1 slug this season and i removed her eggs every couple hours to avoid clumping.

Subject B. is a shorter more robust female. Breeding history is unknown but this is most likely her first year breeding. She is approx 50+ inches and somewhat over weight but otherwise very healthy. At laying she was 1296 grams. She has laid 11 good eggs and one slug. She has retained what i suspect as 3. The current one at the cloaca and two more that are up high but not together.

All the practices and husbandry for both have been identical including feeding, temps, and enviroments as thay are kept in identiacl enclosures in the same breeding rack. Both bred to the same male.

The factors for both that are distinguishable only in breeding history and the respective sizes of both. Otherwise, everything else is identical.

Just a few thoughts. Anyone else got any observations?

Brian
hwh

BoidKeeper

06-19-04, 01:22 PM

Great post Roy. I must admit that this is my biggest fear about breeding snakes.
Cheers,
Trevor

gonesnakee

06-19-04, 01:39 PM

Good Points People & I will have to point out one point in particular made by Unca Roy. Everyone wants to take pics & start taking away eggs etc. from females while they are laying IMHO BAD IDEA notice how I have no pics of eggs being laid, nor do I take any eggs away from her in the middle of laying. This is a delicate time for the females & all this Fing around with them while they want absolutely nothing but to be LEFT ALONE is not good. I have personally had females STOP Laying in the middle of their clutches & become eggbound as a result of bothering them during this sensitive time. I check them all once a day & if I catch them in the act I leave them be & may check 10-12 hours later if I think they are done to take the eggs laid at that point or better yet wait until the next day. If you have a proper nesting box for her the eggs will be fine in there with her for days. I personally know breeders that only check their females 2-3 times a week for this very reason (fear of EB due to disruptions). There is zero reason to disturb her between eggs to get them into an incubator etc. Pics are nice & if are to be taken should be done very quickly while you are checking her status, not a full blown phototshoot while she is doing her best to be alone & undisturbed. In the beginning I was as Guilty as anyone for doing this, but after having had to get help with eggbound females as a result along with stern warnings from other breeders more knowledgable than myself to LEAVE THEM ALONE! As it was believed that my "messing with them" caused the eggbinding in a couple of cases in the first place. Something to think about anyhow folks. Mark
P.S. same can be applied when they are pipping/hatching. If you keep messing with them they will keep pulling back into the eggs. I have personally lost babies that were fully pipped with their heads out. After they were scared pulled back into the eggs only to be found drowned later after not being able to get out again. Extreme let down folks especially when they were alive & well & then drown as a result of over anxious curiousity. Curiousity kills more than Cats :(

Classic

06-19-04, 03:54 PM

Interesting theory. Are you basing all this info on just speculation or have you tested this on the same female in the same setting for numerous years and with various species. This is something that has been stated that is more common than alot of peeps might admit. This is something that maybe just as common in the wild than in captivity. It is really hard to pin point any one cause for binding but the lask of exercise certainly does seem to be a viable one. Its really hard to say. I removed 4 out of 4 clutches from hondos and pueblans as they were laid this year and only had a problem with this one. If we were to base it on these stats...we would have to rule toward the overall condition and laying history of the subject female. This is also just a small piece of the puzzle. A determination over the next couple years will shed a little more light as the same conditions and situations are repeated. It might make a difference leaving them alone but it very well not make any difference at all considering some reptiles enter a trance state when laying their clutch.
If we can get more first hand accounts, we may be able to notice a pattern.

Brian

HWH

gonesnakee

06-19-04, 04:38 PM

Tested, not likely, why risk eggbinding multiple females for nothing. Observed yes, in many seperate cases with many different Colubrid species. As stated observed not just by me but by breeders who have worked with multiple species over periods of decades. More likely in Kings & Milks than Corns (IMO has to due with the larger eggs). It even happens quite often that the female will not lay the second 1/2 of her clutch for a day or 2 if disturbed in the middle. I have had instances this year with a few snakes that appearred to only have one or 2 left when I was doing the rounds so I figured I'd take the rest & it was enough IMO to make them hold off on laying the others for another day or so. This has also happened this season to a few "newbie" corn breeders whom I have been coaching over the phone recently as well. Not a new thing, something that I have observed since I started. So if you are asking there is no scientific proof I'll agree nope (none that I know of), but I don't need "proof' (loose term LOL) to know a female laying is better left undisturbed. IMHO Mark
P.S. If I have a female that has had any serious eggbinding problem I don't breed her again so there is no "testing" the same female the next year, not worth risking her life for my curiousity IMO
EDIT: I will admit that more often than not it is with the younger or first time females & that the "ole girls" unless in poor shape seem to do their duty just fine mostly. Maybe its because they are more comfortable laying as they have experienced it before :confused:

MarcB

06-19-04, 05:14 PM

You guys have made interesting observations, here is my opinion for what its worth;

I strongly beleive a lot of people are breeding their females too young and way below the appropriate weight which may lead to problems discussed. The extra year or two of growth is well worth it.

The point Roy made about colubrid activity vrs a sit and wait python is a valid one and is most likely one of the main reason for egg binding/retention in colubs. After all, they do cover a vast territory to hunt and so on...

I am also guilty for observing/disturbing and taking pics of a female laying during the day and removing eggs as they are laid. In my case, hondurans almost always deposit their clutches during the night only to be found in the morning. I totaly agree they are best left alone during this critical period with as little disturbance as possible.

Last year was my worst slug season ever, I speculate the high slug ratio to overweight (not obese) females, This year, my females were fed to keep a slimer line with enough fatty reserves to barely notice stretched scales. All my pairings were the same as in 2003, I ruled out fertility problems as the same males had successfuly fertilyzed with 100% hatch rate in other clutches. So far this year, the same problematic females all gave me 100% good eggs with no retention or egg binding problems.

As a side note for those who remember, one of my albino females was egg bound in 2002 and had to undergo surgery to remove the retained eggs. I gave her a full two years to recover and decide to breed her again this year. She is gravid and seems to have only developped eggs from one oviduct and must be carrying a small clutch of 4-5 eggs. She's in her pre lay shed right now and I am pretty confident things will go over well. I will post her story has it unfolds...

We need more great topics like this.

Classic

06-19-04, 07:09 PM

I can agree with almost everything that will reduce the stress on my females. Its a hard call. I could say that i will follow the same steps as this year to the letter and only change the disruption of the egg laying time frame. Unfortunately, extended periods of years with same animals is a tough one. One female is entering her last breeding years and the other is just starting. I'd like to keep the same conditions and practices for numerous subjects but i also dont plan to experiment with the health of my favorite animals. The main thing needed here is data. Alot of data.
Roy, Marc and any others that have worked with hondos or any other colubrid for that, have you kept any notes or observations tucked away in all those years of breeding?
I'd love to disect this topic and try to come to a consensus. It can only help all of us. If at all, we can all come to a moderate common practice that is agreed upon that can be used for future reference for when this happens to someone for the first time or the 10th time.

Classic

06-19-04, 07:10 PM

Simon

06-19-04, 07:35 PM

This is a great post~

I agree, disturbing a female while laying is not really the best idea in the world. I would rather take the pics after they have finished laying. To me, I don't think that it makes much of a difference in taking shots after the female lays eggs.

To be honest I have to agree with Roy. People are breeing their females way too early. This year I have a couple of females that just reached the breeding mark. But I have decided to breed them later. Why risk the animal's life to just get a few (if any at all) eggs. I wouldn't risk it for sure.

The amount of excercise that the animal gets is also another problem. I try to take them out once in a while and make them move around my hand. This excercise is kind of like having my corns climb trees, thus helping out with the mucsle tooning.

This is a great topic~~
Anymore input would be greatly appreciated!

Tim_Cranwill

06-19-04, 07:45 PM

Great post guys! :)

Thanks to everyone for sharing their hard-learned lessons. I'm sure it will aid many keepers and many snakes. :)

Classic

06-20-04, 08:14 AM

Here's an update everyone.

I received a call yesterday from a concerned breeder once he viewed the pics of Gandalf. He was telling me about experiences he has had over the years and what he felt i should do. Well, i decided that apsiration must be performed to relieve the pressure on Gandalfs abdomen.

I picked up an 18 gauge needle and a 3cc syringe. Alcohol swabs, empty container for the extracted fluid and a clean plastic sheet.

I confired with someone that has done this in the past and has had sucessful results.

After laying out the plastic and laying the female in question on to it, i had my nine year old daughter hold her upper body. hehe.
You should have seen her eyes when i told her that she might get bitten. lol!

I entered the skin on the lower portion of her body but through the ribs. I used an upward angle and was able to peirce the egg with relative ease. I reentered the original hole 4 times and i was able to pull out 12cc of egg yolk fluid.

During the procedure, gandalf was calm only seeming to be bothered by the original insertion of the needle.

She seems no worse for ware and the scales around the egg collapsed back where they should be.

I cleaned off the insertion area again before placing her into a fresh enclosure without water for the night.

Well, i checked on her this morning and she was busy during the night. She had all the new shavings patted down which tells me she was very active over night.

In the middle where she was laying was this...

http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/509/1478DCP_0030-med.JPG

Thanks for your help everyone and thanks for the phone call.

There is still alot more data to be learned here.
Brian
HighWaterHerps

BoidKeeper

06-20-04, 08:27 AM

Good stuff Brian. I don't have a lot of experience in this area, just what I've read but it seems to me that only a few short years ago people were taking these snakes to the vet for a "C". In my opinion this is a lot less intrusive.
Good job Brian,
Trevor

MarcB

06-20-04, 08:32 AM

Glad to see she got rid of that football sized egg.

Thanks for sharing this valuable information for all to benefit.

Stockwell

06-20-04, 10:45 AM

Good stuff indeed Brian... I think its fantastic that a bunch of us guys can have a round table on this forum and have frank discussions and form resolutions... It really validates all the hours we blow surfing.
After reading Marcs post about his hondo that had surgery two years back,I thought I would mention a little experiment I'm doing this season involving re-breeding a snake that lost her oviduct last year.
Through the years I have had several snakes end up depositing eggs with oviduct especially when force is used to push the eggs out from high up in the abdomen, and that is why I caution against this.
I have also heard all kinds of other stories where snakes prolapse their oviduct with the eggs, and guys simply cutting the oviduct off.
In general these snakes are put down, die, or become "pets" and are never rebred.
Last year I had a hognose snake that I had pumped for breeding get absolutely huge with massive eggs. She laid one egg, and stopped.
She couldn't even bend her body, and was in trouble for sure.
After several days, I decided to push some of the eggs out as she was packed from neck to vent.
So I pushed, under water, and out came several huge eggs all packaged up in her oviduct. It seemed impossible to remove them from the duct with a simple lateral incission ,and the duct was prolapsed several inches anyway, so I simply cut the oviduct off with sterilized scissors.

The snake was eating the next day, and continued to be outwordly healthy.
So rather than give her away or put her down, I decided that I really needed to know what would happen if I rebred her.
So I did, and fully expected the worst, but at least something would be learned.

So missing an oviduct, much to my surprise the little hog laid 6 fertile eggs a couple weeks ago which makes my effort entirely worthwhile.
However she once again has one or two stuck high up.
So how is this possible??
Snakes have two oviducts, so the removal of one doesn't necessarily mean they can't lay again out the other. I suspect this is what has happened with my Hognose.
However I also expect that the stuck eggs up high are eggs dead-ended in the damaged oviduct that no longer makes it to the outside.
The cut off oviduct has probably healed over and the end fused mid abdomen. It's also possible that the eggs are in the body cavity.
So, will she die or live? I wont be doing any pushing on them, as I suspect there is no duct to take them to the cloaca.
I've been told that slugs, which they probably are are less likely to cause infections as they contain only the females fluid. I can't say whether that is true or not
She is feeding fine, so I'm going to leave her, at least for a while and see what happens.
I could drain the eggs, or I could cut them out, which I do have experience with, but for the time being I have 6 good eggs from a female that I thought would never produce again..
I am still pretty cynical about her long term viability, and she will most likely end up a pet at best, but at least I have now learned that snakes that lose an oviduct one season, can indeed produce eggs again, however probably not without complications.
In a recent conversation with Steve Hammack of the Forth Worth zoo, he mentioned that they have a Chondro that continues to lay eggs after being eggbound. But she had one ovary removed surgically, so she no longer produces ova into the side that was damaged/removed

marisa

06-20-04, 11:02 AM

Wow amazing thread! Very interesting to me since this JUST happened with my female snow!

Since the aspiration and passing of the shell, she has been just fine and is breeding heavily now with my male to ensure a more fertile clutch for her double clutch.

I really feel she didn't get enough exercise. She is a big corn, like 50 inches and thick, so I think she could have done with a bit of slimming down and more time out of her enclosure. I also wonder if because I started feeding her rats this year, did that attribute to her being more out of shape. Probably. :P

Marisa

Simon

06-20-04, 11:30 AM

Congrats Brain for the little 'surgery' that you just made with great success. I too have used that method to remove a lot of eggs with great success.

Roy,
man that is a great post with nice little experience learned. Thanks for posting such a great thread. Indeed I have learned a lot from all those posts you made.

I usually don't breed my females after I have noticed that she has a prolapsed oviduct. I usually just sell her away or let her become one of my pets. Which I still have 1 female right now. So after reading your post I might what to re try and breed her.

I have heard from Don Soderber from South Montain Reptiles that he too had the experience in re breeding a female that had her oviduct prolapsed. He never had any problems with that female. But I didn't want to take the risk and have never really tried to rebreed any of mine. After reading your post Roy, I think that I might want to try her (that is of course if she looks to be in good heath.)

Thanks again for the rest posts!!

vanderkm

06-20-04, 12:01 PM

Glad to hear Gandalf is doing well Brian - thanks for sharing the info on how you handled this one. Great learning thread. Does she still have any eggs higher up?

Very interesting thoughts all around and good base of experience to draw on in the face of future problems. One question for those who have not rebred females that had eggbinding or prolapses - any concern over them laying clutches of slugs in the future without breeding and having more problems due to trying to lay slugs. We have only had egg-binding with slugs - in one instance losing a female and the other female cal king was able to lay them all, but took her over a month to do so. We actually bred her this year just so she would have a fertile clutch. Is the issue different when binding is due to slugs or huge fertile eggs?

One other observation on reason for egg-binding - that the nest box is not suitable for the female. We provided boxes half filled with damp spagnum and have had two corns this season that were extremely restless and seeking when they were at about day 14 post shed, with eggs well down near the vent. In both instances providing an alternative nest box filled to the brim with moss (at another breeders suggestion) resulted in them laying the clutch that night - buried down deep in the moss. Might be coincidence, but thought I would mention it - breeder suggestion was that they prefer the security of a tight, dark laying spot.

Again, glad to hear Gandalf came through with this egg -

mary v.

Jeff_Favelle

06-20-04, 12:25 PM

Everyone wants to take pics & start taking away eggs etc. from females while they are laying IMHO BAD IDEA notice how I have no pics of eggs being laid, nor do I take any eggs away from her in the middle of laying. This is a delicate time for the females & all this Fing around with them while they want absolutely nothing but to be LEFT ALONE is not good. I have personally had females STOP Laying in the middle of their clutches & become eggbound as a result of bothering them during this sensitive time.

Man, I totally agree. I am guilty of the picture-taking, but I I'm pretty nimble with the camera, LOL, and I only take one or two and then wait until the next day to take another. I figure that if I looked in once to see them, I might as well take a picture too! Ha ha.

But removing eggs DURING egg laying and touching the females and stuff I wouldn't do. I think a lot of cases of egg binding is due to mucking around with the females during a very very delicate time. I sure know that if I ever got an egg bound Hondo, it would scare me enough to NEVER take pics of egg-laying or to even peek at them until its over.

Good post Mark.

Classic

06-20-04, 12:42 PM

All seems well. She took down a medium rat this afternoon. She seems to be holding on to two more eggs up high into her abdomen. I just wanted to state that this girl was large enough to breed two years ago. She is not a young female as far as i know. Just in case it is deemed that she was to young. That is definately not a factor in this case. But, i have no prior breeding history on her so it is deemed to be her first clutch. I guess time will tell as to the retained eggs that are still up high.

Brian
hwh

BoidKeeper

06-20-04, 12:47 PM

That seem like a large meal Brian for her to digest after just going through all this and for still having two eggs in her. If I was you I would keep her nice and warm to help in the digestion of that meal. I always start mine off with some half the size of what they normally take after laying their eggs. How much do your medium rats weigh? What you call a medium I may call a small or a hopper. My medium rats are between 90-170 grams.
Cheers,
Trevor

Stockwell

06-20-04, 12:52 PM

Mary, I have experienced egg binding with slugs, with fertile eggs and with combinations of both.
Last year both my eggbound Hondo and Hognose had fertile eggs causing the trouble.
My own experience is that it can happen with either, and I think the mass of the eggs, the number of them and the overall fitness/obesity of the female are more a factor than whether the eggs are fertile or not.
Also fertilization problems that result in slugs might also be caused by too many fat bodies in surrounding abdominal tissue compressing the oviduct thus hindering smooth passage of spermatazoa up the oviduct.(conjecture)

I don't have a finite answer to your question regarding possible binding and slug production in unbred snakes.
I suspect its possible. Due to the fact that most of us keep our charges all in one room, its hard to tell if females will ovulate without at least pheremonal exposure to males. I think it may happen, but I've never had isolated females to gather any data from
I've had snakes lay slugs that weren't mated, but they have always been in the same air volume with males, and that might be all it takes.

I think your comments on suitable nest boxes is valid,and this includes temp, humidity and darkness as possible factors .
Some snakes will circle cages for days, around and around, appearing to be searching for a suitable spot. This can happen even with a nest box.
I have had Hondos lay eggs on top of the nest box, as well as pushing them up and laying under them.

Jeff Favelle has had excellent luck with no nest boxes which I first found shocking, as most breeders have been using egg boxes for some time, for all colubrids, and there has long been a sentiment that egg binding can result without such egg laying sites. But Jeff's success without egg boxes speaks for itself and simply ads more intrigue.
I might add, that Jeff uses the long larger underbed rubbermaid boxes for his Hondos, and this might be contributing to more exercise, increased fitness and muscle tone. I haven't seen any reports of him having egg binding problems..(Jeff please comment if you're reading this)

I think the substrate in the box, the wetness of the substrate, relative darkness and humidity can
all be factors in whether a female finds "YOUR" nest box suitable.
I've noticed that they wont use an overly wet box.
I've also had snakes seemingly refuse to lay on vermiculite.(years ago)But I've seen others use it with success.
I always use the long strand course sphagnum moss, but I don't break it up much and stuff the boxes fairly well, keeping it moist but never saturated. Frequently they do seem to completely bury themselves under the substrate.
This year for the first time, I used the new "black rubbermaids" and although I don't have the dozens of colubrids I did years back to really make a decent sample group.. the corns,hypo glades, hondos, hogs and annulata etc have all settled down fairly quickly in these boxes, and I have had no egg binding yet this season(other than my no oviduct hog).
Mary, when you said you swtiched from spaghnum to moss, what do you mean..???
Spaghnum is moss, and "peatmoss" is simply ground up Spaghnum, so which moss did you use??

hooked

06-20-04, 01:25 PM

Hi Brian

Glad to see Gandalf is doing better... You did a great job buddy

Rose

Classic

06-20-04, 04:44 PM

Trev, My version of a medium rat is roughly 85 grams. That doesen't ever make a noticable lump in this girl. Its not a large meal for her, just a normal one. You might go as far to say that she should be getting larger meals. No extra care is required for her at the moment. She is in her enclosure and i am now only observing haw she passes her food. Those other eggs should pass through in time. I hope.

Brian
hwh

vanderkm

06-20-04, 05:50 PM

Roy - just to clarify - I meant we switched from tubs half filled with spaghnum to those filled full with spaghnum - just called it moss the second time around (easier to spell)- but same stuff, just more of it.

We used vermiculite last year (only for two clutches) but didn't like it and went with spaghnum for all this year. I am using dark solid plastic lay boxes for the hondos and I like them. My first female laid overnight - complete clutch there in the morning this year. Last year she didn't seem to like the clear box (or maybe it was the vermiculite or us watching her too closely) and she interrupted her clutch after the first four eggs.

I really appreciate all the info that has been shared on this thread - thanks to Brian for getting it started -

mary v.

Jeff_Favelle

06-20-04, 06:18 PM

Never had any egg-binding with the Hondos Roy. But I do have the large under-the-bed Rubbermaids, and I do have logs and pieces of wood for them to crawl around as well. But after seeing and hearing what you guys do, I quickly made the switch. But I received and hatched well over 200 eggs without ever using a nest box, and never once had an egg-bound female. But, as you say, it could have been a mixture of luck and a ton of other factors that contributed to that.

Just a note, although this is a TINY sample size and I've only switched 1/2 way through the current year, it seems that with the moist nest box, the Hondos complete the egg-laying process much much quicker. It was unmistakeable now that I think about it. It used to take 36 hours + to get a full clutch once they started laying. Now, the eggs are started and layed within 20 hours, easily.

No disturbance, plus nice humid nest box, plus sphagnum moss, plus super healthy and not over-fed, older females will always equal better success as far as I'm concerned.

Best of luck everyone! And I agree with Roy, we should definitely post all our experiences, good AND bad, so that we can learn and figure out these speed bumps along the way!

Cheers! :D

Vanan

06-23-04, 11:47 PM

Wonderful posts!!!! Mods, please make this a sticky. This thread could save a lot of colubrid deaths or eggbindings. Excellent posts everyone. Being one who went through a "few" egg bound females this season, I value this thread. Thanks all!

tai_pan1

06-25-04, 09:59 AM

What a wealth of information you all possess! I bred my corn for the first time this year and (luckily) experienced no problems. You never know in the future though and this thread has a lot of advice that I think is worth following. One thing though, it was mentioned several times to make sure your female was large enough to breed. I know in the Corn Snake manual that Kathy bred her females that weighed over 200 grams one year, and increased it to 240 grams the following two years. I've also read 300 grams is a minimum, and someone on either this site or cornsnake.com recommended that I wait until they reached 500 grams. What is generally accepted as "large enough? My female weighed 280 grams out of brumation and 318 when she was bred. She laid 20 fertile eggs and I'm expecting them to pip next week. Any input would be appreciated, and thanks for sharing all of your knowledge.

Mike