feeders food - compromise or not?

[reptilesalonica]

I wonder, what is the medium solution for rodent rack systems.
What is the best between quality food for rodent feedes, ease of use and cheap price? What would you choose?
Others prefer quality for the feeders, others prefer cheap solutions...
Rodent blocks, mixed food, dog pellets? What to choose?
What is your oppinion?
~Greg~

[mykee]

Without getting into a ridiculous debate AGAIN, my answer is plain and simple. You feed dogs dog food, you feed rats rat food (lab diet, or Mazuri type foods) and you feed mice mouse food (lab diet or Mazuri type foods). From my personal experience, you get bigger, healthier rodents and they're getting the exact nutrition they require.

[reptilesalonica]

I know what you sayin, but, from what i know, rat food do not have many differencies from dog food. They named the same type of food with two different names.
IMO it's just marketing tricks my friend.
~Greg~

[sapphire_moon]

My rat food that I bought (lab diet) doesn't have ANY meat in it. rats eat both meat and veggies/grains.

Cheap dog food (without red dyes) have both meat products in it, and veggies/grains. So I think that cheap (or even the more expensive stuff) is better for rats.

Mice on the other hand. I don't know. I only started keeping them, they eat the same thing as my rats. I even give them dog food sometimes. I notice when I give them dog food, the babies get bigger, fatter, faster and less canabalizing.

Everyone has their way of feeding/taking care of their rats and mice, and I don't think anyone is going to change anyone elses mind. lol.

[Jayson]

Both mazuri and 5010 lab chow have animal products in them. and they are by far the best rodent food.
Also take it from me rats and mice have different nutritional needs.
and for that matter rats and dogs have similar but different nutritional needs.

[justinO]

Originally posted by reptilesalonica
I know what you sayin, but, from what i know, rat food do not have many differencies from dog food. They named the same type of food with two different names.
IMO it's just marketing tricks my friend.
~Greg~

this is completely untrue. all you have to do is look at the ingredients, they are very much different.

dog food is not good for rodents and is more expensive so i don't understand why anyone would choose to feed that.

lab diet is $20 for 50lbs.


Jessy.

[sapphire_moon]

maybe for you!

lab diet for a 50lb bag is like 35dollars here. While I can get a 50lb bag of dog food for 12 dollars with basicly the same indgriedients.

[Linds]

I've fed both lab diets and dog food in the past. After having my eyes opened to the real deal on the cheap dog food ingredients I refuse to feed it anymore, depsite seeing optimum results from it. I am not convinced it will be the best long-term diet for my reptiles, as I was appauled as to what actually goes in to it. Right now I have settled on feeding a diet that I am quite satisified with. It offers the adequate values as well as agreeable makeup. The cat food is much higer in protein and fat (36% protein, 21% fat) than dog food so I hardly need to feed much of it at all, which I feel makes up for the lack of optimal formulation. While although the ingredients aren't optimal, the formulation isn't all that bad, and I feel it is more than sufficient to use as a supplement. It also remains cost efficient as well. My mice receive a diet of seeds/nuts, horse chunks (Masterfeeds Golden Years.... 16% protein, 4% fat), the odd niblet of medium quality cat food, and of course table scraps as available. My rats receive a diet mainly consisting of horse chunks, and varying amounts of medium quality cat food provided depending on who is feeding (colonies are fed more than growing babies are and adults are offered a sprinkling occassionally). They also get offered table scraps as available.

[mykee]

Linds, with all those ingredients, is there time for anything else? I've never heard of anyone putting in such an effort to formulate a diet that is geared towards their feeder animals. Commendable.

[annieb_mice]

Linds, sounds like you're feeding pretty close to what I feed mine! LOL! I don't feed cat food though. I give "natural" protein stuff like eggs, chicken, ect. :) The horse chunks are great!
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[reptilesalonica]

Originally posted by mykee
Linds, with all those ingredients, is there time for anything else? I've never heard of anyone putting in such an effort to formulate a diet that is geared towards their feeder animals. Commendable.
IMO feeders' diet is most important thing. Properly fed feeders means healthy reptiles.
Healthy reptiles means less troubles and money.
So, searching for quality food for the rodents is very important to me.
Cheers~Greg~

[Oliverian]

Hey Linds, may I ask what grossed you out so much as to not feed dog food anymore? Or is it just the powdery filler junk?

-TammyR

[sapphire_moon]

I believe this is why linds quit feeding dog food.

http://www.flintriverranch.org/uck.html
http://www.thefishman.net/dogs/nutrition.htm
http://www.doberdogs.com/foodcht1.html
http://www.thelittlefoxes.net/html/pet_food.html

(from annieb_mice)

And personally that is why I went with Lab Diet breeder formula (can't remember exact name) but my rats have gotten thin, and food crazy (even though I still supplement with table scraps *appropriate ones* and special food, and they go crazy over certain types of baby food *as a treat* eggs, etc...etc...) So I am going to go back to ol roy dog food.

Though the indgreidenints (sp?) may be really gross, I am sure they clean it and make sure animals can't get sick from it.

I have also noticed that they go through the block food faster and eat more of it than the dog food?

[annieb_mice]

<< Though the indgreidenints (sp?) may be really gross, I am sure they clean it and make sure animals can't get sick from it. >>


**** Clean it? Sapphire, this is CHEAP dog food! They get the cheapest ingredients possible and mix it all together. If they stopped to clean it, they would lose money because it would mean spending more effort.
Ol' Roy has also been recalled on MORE than one occassion because it has caused animals to become sick and in some cases die. There have been several recorded cases in which the grain that is used is moldy, causing severe health problems in the animals that are fed it. And you know that "crude fibre" that is listed on the ingredients? That's actually recycled newspaper... gee.. that sure sounds nutritious.
I know I've gone off on this topic before... and I tried REALLY hard to stay out of it this time... but remember... you are what you eat... the SAME goes for your feeder rodents and the animals that eat those feeder rodents. If you are feeding your rodents foods made from recycled newspaper, do you REALLY think they provide the same nutrition as rodents that have been fed a more nutritious diet?
Okay... shutting up now... :)
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[Linds]

Oliverian,
Yup, those links posted by annieb_mice were the reason I stopped. Although I never fed that crap to my dogs, I still thought it was fine enough to feed to my rats. Had NO idea that it was that awful though :(

Originally posted by annieb_mice
I give "natural" protein stuff like eggs, chicken, ect. :) The horse chunks are great!
Take

I'd be much happier feeding a fresh protein source, but for now that remains occassionally, as with the volume of animals I have, it would become quite costly and time consuming. I've compromised a little in that department, but I feel it isn't going to have a negative impact as it is so small. I do agree, I love the horse chunks. I am not sure why I never tried them before as up until last year, I have been keeping horses since I was a child :rolleyes:

On a different note, although my feeders do not receive quite the same caliber diet, my pet rats upstairs receive as varied a diet as myself that includes (but is not limited to) pasta, fresh and frozen fruits and veggies (inlcuding cranberries to keep their systems clean), eggs, chicken, beef, bones, bread, nuts, seeds, oatmeal preparations, yogurt, cheese, and occassionally they get offered horse chunks or some holistic dog or cat food. I am also guilty of giving them some not so great items from time to time, they are such mooches that if I'm eating they want it, so from time to time they may receive a jellybean or something :o Not the greatest habit, but it's such a small amount I don't feel it will have any significance.

[BoidKeeper]

Well I've been raising rats on special dinner \dog food for two years. I've been raising my snakes on those rats for two years. All I can say is look at my snakes.
Cheers,
Trevor

[annieb_mice]

Trevor...
You may not notice the effects right away and they might be subtle. And even if you don't notice any difference in the health of your animals right away... why wouldn't you want to give your pets the best you can? The cost difference is minimal.
Not going to get into another "discussion" about what food is best for feeding your feeders though. :)

Linds... TSK! TSK! Feeding your little "mooches" JELLYBEANS?!? SHAME SHAME!! ;) (hands another bit of pizza to her little mooch)
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[BoidKeeper]

why wouldn't you want to give your pets the best you can?
Never said I didn't want to. Trust me as anal as I am when it comes to my animals if I could get actual rat diet I would buy nothing but. It's just not available where I'm located.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Linds]

Trevor,
Formulated rat diets aren't the be all end all. I'm actually not a fan of them at all. You may want to consider the type of diet I am feeding. All the ingredients are easily available, no matter where you are located, and IMHO, it is better than the rat blocks. It is also still as easy on the wallet (I'm actually paying less than when I was feeding cheapo dog food), and still convenient enough. There are many alternatives and it is really quite easy to whip up your own rodent diets without all the undesirable additives in them. When making your own mixes you can tailor it to fit both the rodents needs and your needs as well :cool:

[reptilesalonica]

I've read all previous posts. Also I saw the links... :( JESUS!...
What about making our own mixed foods for rodents. Any suggestions? Except meet what are the needs of rats for ex?
For veggies is it enough the rabbit pellets?
~Greg~

[sapphire_moon]

rats usually won't eat rabbit pelletes. The problem I have with mixing your own diet is they pick through it and take what they want.

And my rats (on the lab diet stuff) I hardley ever seen them eat. Maybe once or twice every 3-4 days (which leads me to believe they were starving themselves!). When I feed them the dog food, I see them nibbling a bit every day.

[reptilesalonica]

Originally posted by sapphire_moon
The problem I have with mixing your own diet is they pick through it and take what they want.
Yeap! This is very true! I forgot about that.
So what else? Crushing the mixed food and make pellets on our own:confused: :rolleyes:
~Greg~

[Linds]

Greg,
I've actually never found my rats to leave any food behind, and they get quite the variety. Horse chunks supplemented with animal protein and fat makes a good diet for feeders, and is cost effective and convenient. Of course the best diet is a variety of fruits, veggies, seeds, nuts, grains, and fresh animal matter, but the diet of horse chunks and animal protein is definitely not sub-par. Having access to kitchen scraps from restaurants, etc. can make a fresh diet very cost-effective as well, but I find it too messy to feed to a large colony, as it isn't really the type of diet you can leave sitting in a food hopper.

[reptilesalonica]

Originally posted by Linds
Of course the best diet is a variety of fruits, veggies, seeds, nuts, grains, and fresh animal matter
Do you mean fresh fruits and veggies? I think that they are not good enough for rodents and rabbits since causes diarrhea.
~Greg~

[Linds]

Originally posted by Linds

On a different note, although my feeders do not receive quite the same caliber diet, my pet rats upstairs receive as varied a diet as myself that includes (but is not limited to) pasta, fresh and frozen fruits and veggies (inlcuding dried cranberries to keep their systems clean), eggs, chicken, beef, bones, bread, nuts, seeds, oatmeal preparations, yogurt, cheese, and occassionally they get offered horse chunks or some holistic dog or cat food.

LOL guess ya didn't read all the posts after all ;) My rats get a good portion of fresh veggies and fruit in their diet (as well as frozen and dried) and have never suffered from any diarrhea. After all, in the wild they don't have formulated rodent blocks or live purely off seeds.

[annieb_mice]

Small amounts of fresh fruits and veggies are okay. NEVER feed "iceberg" or head lettuce as it's pretty much just water.
I THINK rabbit pellets are primilary a variety of different grasses. The horse chunks are great as they are made of a variety of different grains and are VERY similar to lab blocks but are a LOT cheaper. While I have found the lab diet can be hard to get and in a lot of feed stores I would have to special order it in and it costs over $30 per 25lb bag, but the horse chunks are readily available in any feed store and cost 1/3 the price for a 50lb bag.
Add in some extra protein and you're pretty much set.
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[reptilesalonica]

Originally posted by annieb_mice
...the horse chunks are readily available in any feed store and cost 1/3 the price for a 50lb bag.
Add in some extra protein and you're pretty much set.
Thanks AnnieB, cause i am Greek and i don't understand what "horse chunks" means, can you be more specific please?
I made searces on google but :( (nothing)
Thanks~Greg~

[sapphire_moon]

I'm pretty sure she is talking about horse food. I looked at it, and didn't like it.
I saw someone talking about pig food (not the grower) one time.

[annieb_mice]

If you go into a feed store and ask for "horse chunks" they will know what you are talking about. There are several different brands available, including Pro-Feeds and 5 Star. There are 3 different protein levels available as well. Hope this helps.
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~

[reptilesalonica]

annieb_mice, can you send a PM with one or more brand(s) of horse chunks to see what is like?
Thanks~Greg

[sapphire_moon]

Actually I was going to ask what she thought was the best brand of horse feed to use for rats/mice?

[jjnnbns]

I called two feed stores and they had no idea what I was looking for when I said "horse chunks"

Is it a staple diet or a treat? That was what they were asking me, but I think that at the fleet farm they may have had the right product.

[sapphire_moon]

I think it's a staple diet. If you try the older horse food, it has higher protiene. Maybe if you find the right horse food, you can feed just that to mice, and just that to rats with a bit of extra meat on the side for meat protiene?

What do you think annieb_mice? Would that work?

[marisa]

With all this talk about "what goes into our feeders goes into our snakes" You guys MUST have some data on a snakes nutrional needs???

Oh wait, there isn't any.

My rodents get cheap dog food (yup, dog parts and all) a seed mix from Walmart, and plenty of leftovers. It's worked for me, and thats my humble opinion.

Marisa

[Linds]

Originally posted by jjnnbns
I called two feed stores and they had no idea what I was looking for when I said "horse chunks"

Is it a staple diet or a treat? That was what they were asking me, but I think that at the fleet farm they may have had the right product.

That's odd, there are many different companies that make at least one of their forumlations in the form of chunks. It is a staple diet, same as extruded feeds, sweet feeds, and pelletted feeds. It is just the form it comes in. I use Masterfeeds Golden Years Horse Chunks. It has the highest protein/fat that they carried, at 16% protein and 4% fat.

[reptilesalonica]

Marisa, i have read what you say...i don't know what to think...
After all mice and rats are garbage eaters. Not sayin that it is good to eat newspapers though.
~Greg~