Tiger attacks boy in Elgin [Archive] - sSNAKESs : Reptile Forum

annieb_mice

06-14-04, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by Ixidor
I totally agree with you cruciform, they only ban exotics because a they see them as threat, well I consider a pitbull to be a threat and won't even go near them, yet they're not banned

*** "Pitbulls," which actually encompass several breeds are banned in several cities. While I realize that many people are afraid of these dogs, I'd just like to say a few things.
First and foremost... for every news report of a "vicious" pitbull/rottweiller/whatever, there are thousands more dogs that are NEVER mentioned who are excellent ambassadors of their respective breeds.
Pitbulls, when bred by "professional" breeders who take each animals genetics and temperaments into account, are an excellent family dog when raised properly. In fact, the Pitbull terrier was actually considered "America's favorite dog" and was used in many advertising campaigns, including Buster Brown (Yes, that cute little puppy in the ads is actually a pitbull!), the Victrola dog (rememer "His Master's Voice" dog? Yep... another pitbull), the Little Rascals dog -- Petey, and the list goes on.
For those of you who are interested, here is a website listing some more well known pitbulls: http://pitbulls.iwarp.com/photo6.html
As for their reputation for being "aggressive".... I want to point out that ANIMAL aggression and PEOPLE aggression are COMPLETELY different! The pitbull is naturally animal aggressive, though this can vary from dog to dog (just like with humans, every dog has it's own personality.) Pitbulls were bred to be extremely people friendly, but a badly bred dog (for example a backyard breeder who puts a male and female together without thought as to what he is doing) will likely be more aggressive than one that was bred by a reputable breeder.
Socialization and training are also key factors into a particular dog's temperament. A dog that has been left tied up or kenneled outside with very little human interaction and no training is a time bomb waiting to go off, regardless of the breed. ALL dogs NEED proper socialization and training when it is young to produce a well-mannered well-socialized adult that is a joy to own.
I have two rottweilers and a 3 year old daughter. My dogs have been trained and socialized from day one. I got my youngest rottie from a good local breeder and was showing her until she was hit by a car and was unable to be shown any further. My dogs are excellent around my various animals, including my rodents and my rabbits. They have NEVER bitten anyone and love everyone who comes to visit.
Anyways... take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

anacondaman

06-14-04, 08:25 PM

a horse is still capable of doing some serious damage to a kid and dogs can also. if anything dogs can be considered more dangerous because of the closeness they have with people. the fact is... this exotic cat attacks a kid and then they end up punsishing people who keeps snakes and other reptiles or exotic pets...but a person can still walk down the street with a huge great dane. i think these incadents should be kept more isolated. it makes no sense to bann all exotics and leave dogs and cats out of the mix

my 2 cents

adam

mykee

06-14-04, 09:48 PM

I think that the parents are mostly to blame here. What kind of goobers would let their child be face to face with an uncaged tiger? Oh yeah, I forgot the Keeper said it was ok! Stoopid! Too bad it was the kid that suffered the injuries. Now to this whole dog thing. Doesn't it seem 'coincidental' that most injuries that are inflicted by Pitbulls are more life-threatening than a poodle who nicks the cheek of a baby while grabbing for a toy, the lab who's claw happens to cut some old ladies sandaled foot on an initial meeting or the Husky who runs over a kid that happens to be in the way of a toy that was thrown at the park?? Why is it we never hear of the Bulldog who rips a childs arm off, or a Golden Reteiver who mauls an old lady? Because it DOESN'T HAPPEN. Let me guess, the media is "picking on" Pitbulls? Rotties? Dobes? Fact is, good breeding or not, these dogs have the ability and sometimes the poor judgement to do what my examples of 'well-behaved' dogs would not. I'll stick with my goofy, beautiful, funny,loving, cheeky Lab and never have to wory about her eating anyones face.

Simon Sansom

06-15-04, 02:37 AM

Here's the deal - Aggression is bred into certain breeds of dog - like it or not. You CAN breed for personality traits just as you can for physical ones.
I'm not a "dog guy", but I come from a dog-crazy family, and my better half's folks are registered, REPUTABLE breeders of Old English Sheepdogs, some of the best in the world. I've spent a lot of time at dog shows over the years, so I'm not totally ignorant of canines.

These already naturally aggressive dogs are then often trained by idiotic owners (who know absolutely NOTHING about dogs) to fine-tune their aggressive tendencies, to increase the owners' "machismo". Now, even though the dog may be "great with the kids", it's usually not a family member who gets hurt by it.

Just recently a mail-carrier was mauled by two pit-bulls who went right through a screen door at her, knocking her down causing her to break both fore-arms, and then proceeding to tear at her face. She ended up losing an ear and badly scarred.

I'm sorry, but this sort of thing is totally unacceptable, and it's becoming more and more prevalent as the popularity of these "back-yard breeds", as I like to call them, increases.

If you've ever really taken a look at the statistics on dog bites/attacks, problems with captive herps pale into insignificance, yet most places won't allow even small boids, but any moron can own a dangerous breed of dog.

And just to make a point - yes, ANY breed of dog can attack, depending upon circumstances. Apparently a toy poodle killed a baby while left alone together for a few minutes.

(I'm sure this post'll upset SOMEONE).

Cheers!

Simon R. Sansom

Simon Sansom

06-15-04, 02:43 AM

Invictus;
Believe it or not, Horses are actally quite "dangerous" and account for a massive number of injuries each year requiring medical attention.

Cheers!

Simon R. Sansom

reptiguy123

06-15-04, 08:15 AM

The point is, why be able to keep dogs that aren't exotic when you can't keep snakes, lizards, frogs, etc.?

People, what is this world coming to? An uncaged tiger, even horses and cats that are in a cage just might have a greater tendancy to harm someone than, say, a CAGED snake or lizard!
Even if it is a venemous snake or a poisonous frog, jeez it's in a cage!

A person getting mauled by a captive herp could only be the result of stupidity of the owner. Get rid of them, not exotic herps.

This may not sound like a related subject, but remember what happened to the muslim reputation when the dumbass taliban crashed into the WTC?

wingl

06-15-04, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by mykee
Why is it we never hear of the Bulldog who rips a childs arm off, or a Golden Reteiver who mauls an old lady? Because it DOESN'T HAPPEN. Let me guess, the media is "picking on" Pitbulls? Rotties? Dobes? Fact is, good breeding or not, these dogs have the ability and sometimes the poor judgement to do what my examples of 'well-behaved' dogs would not. I'll stick with my goofy, beautiful, funny,loving, cheeky Lab and never have to wory about her eating anyones face.

No disrespect, but get your facts straight before making a broad comment like that. I have a pit and she's afraid of her own shadow! Every animal, snakes included, have their own personality. If we want to keep them, we have to adjust to their individual personality or not have them at all. The reason you don't hear about other types of dogs attacking is usually because of misidentification on the reporter/witness's part. It sells a lot of newspapers and the correction to the front page story is buried in the middle of the paper somewhere. I was really hesitant on getting a pit bull in the beginning due to my 2 young kids, but after reading up on the breed, and properly training her, the only time I have any attack from her is when her dang tail whips me when I come home from work! You'd be surprised how many people have told me they were scared of her because she is a Pit. Slowly but surely, I'm trying to change the bias toward this breed. Oops this is a snake forum not a dog forum. My bad! :D

mykee

06-15-04, 09:46 AM

None taken, I enjoy a spirited debate as much if not more than the next guy..
I'm sure YOUR dog is a big, cuddly lap dog, in fact I've met a few pits who are just that, in fact one of my Willow's best friend is a pitti named Diesel, BUT that doesn't lessen the fact that many of the SERIOUS injuries inflicted on people are from a select few breeds of dogs. Also, I don't know about you, but I molded my dog into what I wanted. We worked together; she pushed, I pushed and we came to a happy medium where she could keep her personality and I could get from her what I wanted. No dog personality is set in stone. Oh yes, and I apologize for not touching on the GIANT conspiracy between the newspapers, television, OPEC and the UN trying to besmirch the 'good name' of these breeds. Fact is if these dogs didn't go nuts every once in a while, it wouldn't be in a newspaper, on t.v. etc. I realize that 20 years ago, german sheppards were the 'cool' dog to hate, then the dobermann, the rottweiler, and now the pittbull. Is it just me who sees a trend here? Who knows (fingers crossed) maybe the lhaso apso is next.....

Syco

06-15-04, 10:10 AM

I have to put in a few good words for the pit bull breeds. Why does it seem like everytime there is a thread about dangerous animals the pits get drug into it.:( Yes, we own a pit bull. She was rescued from the humane society by my BF before we got together. She was left tied to a tree with no food and no water and she was pregnant. I have no idea what her pedigree is and I highly doubt that any selective breeding took place and she is still a wonderful dog and companion. I haven't seen any aggression towards humans out of her except for one time when a man came to the door trying to get me to let him in (he was selling something :rolleyes: ) after me telling him repeatedly to leave, Sophie came up beside me , growled, and he went away. Normally when someone comes to the door she is there greeting them like they came to see her! LOL! I am sure that there are Pits out there that are aggressive and are a danger to people, I just believe that as a breed they are not normally human aggressive. If you wonder why so many bites are attributed to Pits, go to your local pound and see how many dogs there are listed as Pits or Pit mixes. I have and most of these dogs don't have an ounce of Pit in them! If it is a large breed , short haired dog that even slightly resembles a Pit, that is what it is labled as. Oh and Mykee, I grew up with a girl who had a horribly disfiguring scar on her face from being bitten by a Bulldog.

anacondaman

06-15-04, 10:29 AM

this is where the whole problem lies. A pitbull atacks a person and then all pitbulls are labbelled as killers and laws are put forth. just like boids. red tail boas can get huge and may, by very very very very slight chance harm a person and then little kenyan sand boas and ball pythons are ALSO BANNED. these cases need to be looked at as an individual incident. its almost like racism between animals. cases should be looked at as how the animal was raised and what gave the animal the urge to attack. they dont attack without a reason.

my 2 cents

adam

wingl

06-15-04, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by anacondaman
this is where the whole problem lies. A pitbull atacks a person and then all pitbulls are labbelled as killers and laws are put forth. just like boids. red tail boas can get huge and may, by very very very very slight chance harm a person and then little kenyan sand boas and ball pythons are ALSO BANNED. these cases need to be looked at as an individual incident. its almost like racism between animals. cases should be looked at as how the animal was raised and what gave the animal the urge to attack. they dont attack without a reason.

my 2 cents

adam

My point exactly. Don't let 1 or 2 bad apples taint the whole breed.

sleddergirl

06-15-04, 12:01 PM

When ANY animals attacks someone, whether it be a herp or a dog, the OWNER should be held responsible. People might start to actually learn about the animals that they keep and, in some cases, reconsider. Laws that hold the owner responsible for the actions of their animals, IMO, is the answer............

Oh, and here is my pit, Tank..........:D

pikachu

06-15-04, 12:20 PM

all breeds of dog bite. no question.
it all boils down to training and responcible ownership.
it wasnt too long ago there WAS an outbeak of golden retrievers biting people. it was all the backyard breeding that went on that led to the good traits being lost. and bad traing to reinforce it.
certain dogs (pitbulls, border collies, most herding dogs) have problems with kids because they dont see them as people.
kids move weird, dont talk directly and firmly and are basically at eye level,
a bad place to be with certain dogs.
im a nanny and bring my dog to work. my dog is completly trained and walks away from rowdy children. however i do not leave her alone with the kids and i have had to "train" the kids about dog safety.
i have a staffodshire terrier/border collie mix who is my life.
i would have no problem muzzling her if i knew she was the least bit aggressive.
adults are always to blame with any animal mishap.
neither dogs nor children (or tigers for that matter) know better.
responcible pet ownership is a hard thing to preach to those who dont want to listen.
e

Pixie

06-15-04, 01:27 PM

Pitbull can be wonderful dogs and not the vicious beasts that they are always labeled as.

I've met a few that were absolutely wonderful family pets and total sweeties.

>>Click here<< (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22587&highlight=Emily+attacked)

Unfortunately, that is not the "norm" for this breed and the reason for this is in the dog's owners.

Genetically, this breed was designed to be a fighting dog both physically and mentally. This will show especially with pitts & other animals. Rare are pitts that have been socialized well enough to be around other dogs safely. Attacks from pitts toward other dogs or animals far outweigh attacks from pitts on humans.

Generally, pitts don't tend to view humans as a fight target. The reason for such things happening are purely the owners fault. Lack of or improper training is always the reason for an "accident"...

I think that the reason this breed gets as much attention and bad press is because of the sheer strength this animals has. There is quite a difference between an attack from another kind of dog and a pittbull. I'm not saying that other breeds can't inflict serious damage, it just doesn't compare to the damage that a pitt can do.

I wouldn't want to see the species banned anywhere though. I do like the approach of other places that seem to work in everyone's favor. I believe that it's in the U.K. that if you have a pitt, it must wear a cage muzzle when ever the dog is off your property. I'm not sure about the exact details of the bylaw but it's something to that effect.

Even if it can't prevent all accidents, it's a way to prevent some accidents and make others more comfortable around the breed.

Pixie

mykee

06-15-04, 02:06 PM

Pixie, very well put forward and I agree with you implicitly.
Anacondaman, I don't know about racist, but my dog has never shown racial tendencies to any dog.
Here's where I can speak from experience regarding these breeds: When I lived in Toronto I was in a part of the city where there were a lot of parks and green space, a fairly affluent neighbouhood. Every day after dinner, 50 or so dog owners in the area would meet at this park and let their dogs play, myself included. All the dogs got along well, however there were two pitts, a shep and a rotti (sound familiar) who continuously had 'accidents' while playing that caused nicks, cuts and eventually stitches which led to the eventual "eviction" from the park/play group. Watching these dogs play it was very evident that there are breeds of dogs that are just 'rougher" than others. Granted, there were also other breeds who played equally as rough, but with the above mentioned breeds, their added size and larger everything, they became a force to be reconed with. It's not their fault they are as 'rough' as they are, just like it's not a huskies fault for wanting to run or a border collies fault for wanting to herd. It's the breed.

meow_mix450

06-15-04, 02:08 PM

all i will say is that you can not be 100% sure that nothing will go wrong with your dog, or exotic aniamls, even though you think he will never bit its still very possible.

Meow

ReptiliansDOTca

06-15-04, 02:39 PM

Anacondaman, I don't know about racist, but my dog has never shown racial tendencies to any dog.

Weird that you said that. A while back, I adopted a pitbull who absolutely anyone that was not white, and anyone in uniform. With us though, he was a complete sweetheart.

I personally love pitbulls, their look and build intrigues me. It is my belief that no one has the right to blame a pitbull for an attack. Fact is, it is the owners responsibility to train their dogs, or get their dogs trained, to behave appropriately. It is also their responsibility to place a muzzle on a dog if they know there is a remote chance of an attack.

I definitely do not see PitBulls as a bad breed, and it is not their fault that human kind raised, and in some cases continue to do so, to fight and attack. At the clinic I work at, there is usually at least one pitbull brought in on a weekly basis. I can usually guess the temperament of the dog just by looking at the owners. And in the opposite case, I can almost guess what the owners are like judging by what wrong with the dog, and whether it is in for being in a fight or not. So what am I getting to? Generally, the outcome of a Pitbull is the result of the owner. Last week, a dog came in who had got brutally beaten as a result of trying to protect its owner as he was in a fight. The owner brought the dog in with his jaw wired shut from a previous fight. The dog had several broken bones, and serious road burn on the right side. The dog was put down. I have been 'attacked' twice within the past three months by a pitbull, both of which times the dog was owned by unsuitable individuals - I say that from the extent of care they are willing to give their dog while under our care.

Anyhow, my point is that it is unforunate that such a beautiful, potentially friendly dog has such a horrible reputation due to our stupidity :(.

reptiguy123

06-15-04, 02:55 PM

"Anacondaman, I don't know about racist, but my dog has never shown racial tendencies to any dog. "

To some degree, I'm sure it has.

You know what I hate? Getting mauled by those damned chihuahuas! Man that hurts!:)

But seriously, like I said before: certain instances will turn people against animals/other people. Stereotypes and discrimination. Bah!

meow_mix450

06-15-04, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by reptiguy123
You know what I hate? Getting mauled by those damned chihuahuas! Man that hurts!:)
[/B]

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAHAHAHAHHA gotta hate those dam things ha

Meow

mykee

06-15-04, 03:03 PM

anacondaman

06-15-04, 03:46 PM

what i ment by racist is ....i black person steals something...you cant go and say all black people steal....just like pitbulls...one pitbull bites and ya cant go and label the whole breed biters!

adam

ReptiliansDOTca

06-15-04, 03:51 PM

I concur. The responsibility lies solely with the owner. I couldn't get my dog to attack anyone for the life of me, it's just not in some dogs. In fact, I'm fairly sure that if I had an intruder do harm to me, from my lab I would get a few stern barks, and then she would try to make friends.

I think every dog is capable of biting if not raised properly. I have never had a dog owned by me bite or hurt anyone, other then myself. Any aggression must be dealt with as a puppy. My golden retriever bit me once seven years ago when I tried to take food away from her, as I was in the middle of training (taking her food anytime it is given to her to show her that I am the boss). It was dealt with strictly, and thus, she has never remotely tried to repeat that incident.

V.hb

06-15-04, 03:55 PM

I read an article in the paper about this case. The guy that owns the tiger had it leashed.... What man could control a 350 pound cat on a leash? hahahaha he should be up on charges.

ReptiliansDOTca

06-15-04, 03:56 PM

"what i ment by racist is ....i black person steals something...you cant go and say all black people steal....just like pitbulls...one pitbull bites and ya cant go and label the whole breed biters!"

That is a good point, but unfortunately we are almost at the point where it is fair to label every pitbull as aggressive - and it is no wonder as to why. With their reputation, a lot of responsible owners will not stray towards this breed. They are purchased a great deal of individuals who think a fighting dog contributes to a certain tough image.

meow_mix450

06-15-04, 03:56 PM

Two reasons why dogs are dogs.......

1.They have there own personalitys.

2.All the owners responsablity, to care and train. Without them being trained they become annoying and they will start biting

Meow

V.hb

06-15-04, 03:57 PM

Also, I dont agree with the dog bit, where they have to be raised properly in order not to bite.

I have a rottweiller, hes 3 years old about 130. Hes a complete suck in the house, with anyone. The second he goes outside hes vicious, completely different dog. Iam responsible enough not to let anyone get near him. This has nothing to do with my training, its the dogs instinct to guard and protect.

meow_mix450

06-15-04, 03:59 PM

thats where the personailty comes in:) and im compeletiy agree, it is the dogs instinct to guard and protect.

Meow

V.hb

06-15-04, 04:02 PM

Meow, this is why i dont agree with the pittbull/rotti thing, they're all individuals, and are more prone IMO to be aggressive. Doesn't make them bad pets, but makes it even more evident that the owner must take many precautions with their pet. Yes, alot of the time aggression comes from poor upbringing of the animal, but some dogs are just naturally far more aggressive. Not quite like a 350 lb tiger though. hahahah.... god, that guy wasn't thinking.

meow_mix450

06-15-04, 04:09 PM

lol i agree, we got o/t. It looks like everyone that owns a pitt or a rot, is disagreeing with people that are agaisnt them, maybe people would think differently if they owned one or did some reserach

my 2 cents

Meow

anacondaman

06-15-04, 04:10 PM

its an arguement that if one side is chosen, you cant win. all factors need to be taken into acount. the breed, the upraising and the particular event. if you have a certain breed that is genetically supposed to be more aggressive then more care must be taken in the rasing of it.

my 2 cents

adam

ReptiliansDOTca

06-15-04, 04:19 PM

I have a rottweiller, hes 3 years old about 130. Hes a complete suck in the house, with anyone. The second he goes outside hes vicious, completely different dog. Iam responsible enough not to let anyone get near him. This has nothing to do with my training, its the dogs instinct to guard and protect.

Adam, with no intended offense or question to your ability to care for a dog, did you try correcting this issue while he was young, or even now?

anacondaman

06-15-04, 04:21 PM

are you talking to me or V.hb?...sorry...kinda stupid over here ....cause i dont have a dog

ReptiliansDOTca

06-15-04, 04:26 PM

Sorry, I was referring to V.hb.

And now that I look at it, V.hb does have a good point, in that some dogs are more naturally aggressive, and while I correct myself that not all vicious dogs are the result of their upbringing, I still stand to the fact that it is our responsibility to do everything in our power to correct the issue. Be it behaviour classes, corrective punishment or what not, we must ensure that our pets do not pose a threat to others. There are cases where the problem cannot be resolved, at which point it is our responsibility to ensure your dog is not a threat to others (ie. using a muzzle when outdoors, always having it on a leash, making sure he does not escape your premises, etc.)

anacondaman

06-15-04, 04:29 PM

if everyone put a muzzle on their dog alot of these problems would be solved.

my 2 cents

adam

V.hb

06-15-04, 04:53 PM

There was nothing to correct really, he wears a halty when outdoors, so thats probably the only way I 'accomidated' his aggression. I really don't think it can be corrected, its just something I as an owner need to be aware of in order to assure that my dog doesnt hurt anybody. Same kind of awareness the goof with the tiger should have taken into consideration.

anacondaman

06-15-04, 05:06 PM

even if the animal can (under your own terms) be trusted it should still wear a muzzle. saves the dog and other dog owners alot of legal trouble. im sure that guy with the tiger trusted his big cat enough to take it out without a muzzle and look wat it got him!

adam

mykee

06-15-04, 05:17 PM

I disagree with the whole 'muzzle every dog' theory. Why punish all dogs for the stupidity of a very small percentage of owners?

meow_mix450

06-15-04, 05:28 PM

Well its either the muzzle or its gonna be put to sleep, most choose muzzle, its for the safety from the general public. Better off with a muzzle.

Meow

anacondaman

06-15-04, 05:36 PM

ya....although dogs prefer not to have it, its for the best of the community. it helps not only the people of the community but the dog owner community as well.

mykee

06-15-04, 05:43 PM

Who made this stoopid rule?!, I would NEVER muzzle my dog, under any circumstances in public, and I find it quite insulting for you to classify 'those' types of dog owners and 'my' kind of dog owners, the type of responsible owners that make up 95% of dog owners under one giant, uneducated, misinformed umbrella.

V.hb

06-15-04, 05:51 PM

Actually, I dont have my dog muzzled sorry for the confusion. I use a halty. They work great for controlling larger dogs. My dog just doesnt fare well outdoors with other dogs, or people. I always warn people that want to approach him that he can be very unpredictable. So usually, i steer him away from other dogs, and people.

meow_mix450

06-15-04, 05:58 PM

mykee: Everyone here has got there own opinon, you dont like the idea of a muzzle but not many people do. People do this to stay away from trouble, i honestly dont think they want a muzzle on the poor dog. I'd rather put a muzzle on the dog then put it to sleep, or i would only let my dog out the backyard. I use to have a dog, when hes out side he starts barking at people its instinct, after that happened i only let him out the backyard

Meow

anacondaman

06-15-04, 07:32 PM

yes...im sure the dog will survive with a muzzle on.... its for your dogs beneifit..i know many people say their dogs will never bite...but all those stories of dogs attacking little kids, do u think those people would have let their dogs near their kids if they didnt trust it. if your dog did some serious harm to someone it could effect other people who keep dogs too. if a rule was set in place like all dogs must wear muzzles then im sure there would be alot less problems as far as dog ownership goes.

ReptiliansDOTca

06-15-04, 07:56 PM

I would NEVER muzzle my dog, under any circumstances in public, and I find it quite insulting for you to classify 'those' types of dog owners and 'my' kind of dog owners, the type of responsible owners that make up 95% of dog owners under one giant, uneducated, misinformed umbrella.

Were you referring to what I said? If so then I will comment, and if not why bother right? LoL.

I definitely disagree with the whole muzzle every dog thing. Thats like saying to ban every reptile because some moron screwed up somehow, and someone got injured. You should know your dog, and if you think your dog has the capability to bite someone while you have him outside in a public area, then muzzling is definitely required.

meow_mix450

06-15-04, 08:36 PM

exactly that is what i meant if you know your dog bites then put a muzzle when brought out side, not EVERY dog should have one, that would just be over board

Meow

mykee

06-15-04, 09:05 PM

I agree, I'm not muzzling my Lab because some high-strung pittbull or rotti decides to eat a child. I think that the dogs who are most likely to attack (we all know what those breeds are) should be forced to take extensive training and then tested on whether or not he/she is suitable as a 'good citizen' dog. Owners should also be fined or made to pay for the medical bills/funeral expenses of any person (s) injured or mauled by their dog, along with euthanizing of the dog, and possibly even jail time for the owner. The owners of these 'problem' breeds get off way to damn light in my opinion. Start hitting them where it hurts.

sleddergirl

06-15-04, 09:11 PM

I agree with Mykee on the muzzling issue............an often worn muzzle can foster aggression with some dogs. Tank was 2 years old when we adopted him. He was previously abused and a "possible ex-fighter" (the words of the SPCA). He was there for 3 mths and never showed any signs of aggression, then they had him tested for his aggression level and he passed with flying colours. He is a wonderful dog....................BUT between my husband and I, we have over 30 years experience with the breed. I, unlike a lot of pit owners (mostly the kids that use them as status symbols) understand the breed. An APBT is not a dog that belongs in a leash free park, under ANY circumstances. They are also not dogs that are for a first time owner.......most terriers aren't. Terriers tend to be very smart and very stubborn. They challenge you at the best of times and anyone who considers owning them needs to prepare themselves, in order to be responsible owners.
BTW, I also rescued a 12 week old pit puppy that had been horribly mistreated. Locked in a cage for a month straight, living off his mothers feces, broken tail, mange, worms, etc. Now at first glance most people would think that this dog was young enough to recover from his emotional scars............not true. In his case, all his damage was done to him in the most formative time in his life and he never recovered. Dispite our many attempts to train, reassure and calm him, he continued to be a fear biter............a very dangerous situation. At 6 mths of age, we made the decision to have him put down. Some would argue that I could've placed him in another home, etc but we made the decision to not allow there to be a dog that is a potential "loaded weapon"................just my experience..........

Oliverian

06-15-04, 09:14 PM

I agree Mykee. My mom has a daycare, and they were walking to the pool one day when a big dog ran up from a guys yard and started barking. Well naturally one of the kids ran and when he did, the dog jumped on him and took a big chunk out of his leg.. :(

The guy was warned to put a muzzle on his dog for a while, and now a few months later the dog is running in the yard free still. It could happen to anyone just walking by, and the guy gets off so easily!
Very scary stuff. The kid is now scared of large dogs and won't go near the house (with good reason!) >:(

It's like the idea that if a robber comes into your yard at night, trips and breaks his leg, he can sue you! Now that just isn't right.... Just about happened to us. :S Luckily the guy didn't end up suing. Stupid laws.

-TammyR

mykee

06-15-04, 09:31 PM

Sleddergirl, it's wonderful to hear of a responsible owner, who also knows their own limitations. It is truly unfortunate that there are not more intelligent, knowledgeable pitt owners like you and yours out there to simply offset the stupidity and irresponsibility of other owners. Keep up the good work.

sleddergirl

06-15-04, 09:36 PM

I appreciate that Mykee..........thanks. With all the discrimination against the breed, its nice to hear some acknowledgement of responsible pet ownership. We have been taking in rescues of all species for some time now and I'm unfortunately getting a little tired of cleaning up other people's mistakes. Regardless, thanks for the kind comments.

annieb_mice

06-16-04, 02:55 AM

*** Actually there ARE cases of Golden retrievers and other "family" type dogs that maul humans.... a LOT more than many people know. There was a case last year of a Dashund who tore apart a young baby. There are many cases of "small" dogs attacking humans, mostly children. Why don't we hear about them? Because the media, by this I mean the TV, movies, ect, have told us for YEARS that these dogs are the perfect "family" dogs and with movies like "The Omen" and others that rotties are "devil dogs" or are "bad." If you look at the stats of dog bites in the last twenty years, you will notice that golden retrievers are consistantly in the top ten, while the pitbulls and rotties are only RECENTLY being mentioned in the last few years.
I remember when I was young that everyone believed that dobermans were bad dogs, yet there was a wonderful dobie that lived a block away from me who was very sweet. Then it was German Shepherds. Now it's rotties and pitbulls. There was a news report in the Lower Mainland a few months back of a dog attack. The news showed a picture of a rottie, yet the dog who actually did the attack was a mixed breed that looked NOTHING like a rottie. After that report aired, everyone I talked to firmly believed it was a rottie that did the attack. Several respected rottie breeders actually called the station to correct them and the next time that story aired, the picture of a rottie was not present.
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

Originally posted by mykee
I think that the parents are mostly to blame here. What kind of goobers would let their child be face to face with an uncaged tiger? Oh yeah, I forgot the Keeper said it was ok! Stoopid! Too bad it was the kid that suffered the injuries. Now to this whole dog thing. Doesn't it seem 'coincidental' that most injuries that are inflicted by Pitbulls are more life-threatening than a poodle who nicks the cheek of a baby while grabbing for a toy, the lab who's claw happens to cut some old ladies sandaled foot on an initial meeting or the Husky who runs over a kid that happens to be in the way of a toy that was thrown at the park?? Why is it we never hear of the Bulldog who rips a childs arm off, or a Golden Reteiver who mauls an old lady? Because it DOESN'T HAPPEN. Let me guess, the media is "picking on" Pitbulls? Rotties? Dobes? Fact is, good breeding or not, these dogs have the ability and sometimes the poor judgement to do what my examples of 'well-behaved' dogs would not. I'll stick with my goofy, beautiful, funny,loving, cheeky Lab and never have to wory about her eating anyones face.

anacondaman

06-16-04, 08:43 AM

i dont like the fact of muzzeling evrydog, but i still think it would do more good than bad. im sure if every dog was to wear muzzles there would be a few more people with faces in the world. i know people understand their dogs...i used to have a beautiful australian cattle dog that was as gentle as a dog can get and i understood his body languange perfectly. but accidents do happen, nomatter how sure you are. y not save your dog from the chance (nomatter how slim it mite be) from having to be put down.

my 2 cents

adam

wingl

06-16-04, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by mykee
I agree, I'm not muzzling my Lab because some high-strung pittbull or rotti decides to eat a child. I think that the dogs who are most likely to attack (we all know what those breeds are) should be forced to take extensive training and then tested on whether or not he/she is suitable as a 'good citizen' dog. Owners should also be fined or made to pay for the medical bills/funeral expenses of any person (s) injured or mauled by their dog, along with euthanizing of the dog, and possibly even jail time for the owner. The owners of these 'problem' breeds get off way to damn light in my opinion. Start hitting them where it hurts.

Hey Mykee...reread your post and tell me it doesn't sound like what might be on a mission statement for the ***. Don't get me wrong, I love Labs, I used to own one. I now have a PB after my Lab passed on. My Lab would nip at people where my PB won't. My point is that all dogs can and will bite given a certain circumstance, not just the "most likely to attack (we all know what those breeds are)". You are 100% on making the owners responsible for what their dogs do. I just don't want this turning into a biased attack on certain breeds because of a reputation or stereotype. ;)

ReptiliansDOTca

06-16-04, 10:41 AM

If you look at the stats of dog bites in the last twenty years, you will notice that golden retrievers are consistantly in the top ten, while the pitbulls and rotties are only RECENTLY being mentioned in the last few years.

I kind of hate when people say that, the whole 'there is more golden retriever bites then any other dog...' thing. First off, you have to think how many more golden retrievers there are then pitbulls, or any other dog for that matter. Then you have to think what types of homes these dogs are in, a great deal of times golden retrievers are in family houses with children. Children pull, tug, kick, pinch, bite, and in general annoy the dog so it is not hard to see why a bite may occur. Despite the statistics, I would trust a Golden Retriever over a pitbull anyday.

pikachu

06-16-04, 12:06 PM

like i said before, i have a staff/border collie mix.
she CONSTANTLY get attacked by small dogs. mini poodles, shitsu's etc...
she backs down in a second and tries to get away from them.
she backs away from small children, knowing how rowdy they get.
(i work with them)
i put this down to knowing my dog and going through intensive training.
i WISH people had to be licenced to own pitts, staffs, rots...
it would make resoncible owners lives easier.
and i totally disagree with muzzling every dog, plain ignorance.
only people without a dog would say that.
i, however, would muzzle my dog if i thought she was a threat.
whats even funnier is pits are still recommended as family dogs because of thier high pain tolerance.

Cruciform

06-16-04, 12:14 PM

Hi Pixie,

I was moving into our new house and didn't have a chance to get online and respond.

Have you ever worked on a farm? Or regularly worked in an environment with guard dogs?

I've seen people who were seriously injured by both. Horses that attempt to kill anyone who comes within reach of their hooves and teeth. Dogs who can only be approached by one person. Cows that are nervous and if even the slightest noise scares them, kick you, and trample you into the dirt.

You should NEVER let a child near any animal without direct supervision, even something as small and "harmless" as a cat.

If the tiger has been socialized he's no more dangerous to the average person than an aggressive breed of dog, yet people often leave their kids alone with the family pet all the time. Hell, people buy Dalmations for their kids because of the Disney movies, and they're one of the worst breeds to leave with small children.

I grew up working with large animals. Even docile, domesticated species are deadly in the right situations. Often unintentionally.

Just because a species is a predator does not make "attacks" predatory. They will do things to people that would not harm their own kind, yet do devastating damage to our flesh. A cuff to warn someone off, or a bite across the "scruff" to discipline.

So I reiterate. Putting the child within reach of a tiger, dog, or horse without proper safeguards in place is equally irresponsible.

Originally posted by Pixie
Ummm.....

You've got to be kidding, right?!!!!

Are you saying that letting a child near a Siberian TIGER is the same as a large dog or horse?????

I can't even begin to address the huge differences between the two! If you insist on it, I will explain in more detail, but I think that it's pretty darned obvious!

I just can't understand how anyone could compare these together and judge them to be equally dangerous!

Pixie

pikachu

06-16-04, 12:17 PM

i also want to add a true story, on a pits behalf:
one day the family pit, who was wonderful with children,
decided to bite the UNSUPERVISED child for "no reason"
during the autopsy to find out what happened with the dog
they found an 8 INCH KNITTING NEEDLE lodged in the dogs head
through its ear.
tell me was that the DOGS fault?
was it even the childs fault?
where does the blame lie?
adults maybe?

ReptiliansDOTca

06-16-04, 12:32 PM

Cruciform, that was an extremely good post. And to some extent, I completely agree with you. However, needless to say, a tiger is capable of inflicting more damage then your average dog. But then, like you suggested, to ban tigers - it would only be fair to ban any other animal - be it a cow, horse, donkey, whatever.

Pikachu, very good post as well. Needless to say, the adult is to blame there. In my opinion, a properly trained pitbull is a fantastic family pet. I still remember the days back when I was five or six years old, when I would ride on our pitbulls back around the house.

mykee

06-16-04, 12:47 PM

Hey anyone watch the news last night? Rotti who was tied up for a few minutes to a tree while the owner was in a store broke free from his leash and attacked a bulldog walking by with it's owners.
Come to think of it, maybe the t.v. station digitally 'erased' a golden retreiver and digitally imposed a rotti there instead, conspiracy and all.
With regards to goldens and labs being involved in more incidents than rottis and pitts, if you look at the amount of dogs, labs/golden retreivers outnumber rottis and pitts 10-1.

mykee

06-16-04, 12:57 PM

Wingl, and those breeds don't have ANY problem living up to their stereotypes and reputation. When sheps were 'the dog' to own, a rash of attacks. When dobes were 'the dog' to own, a rash of attacks. When rottis were 'the dog' to own, a rash of attacks. and now, that pitts are 'the dog' to own, a rash of attacks. Golden retreivers and labs have been 'the dog' to own for the last 20 years consistently, where's the rash of attacks? It takes a poorly trained dog, AND a stupid owner for an attack to take place. You need both in 99% of the cases. In the case of your lab nipping at people, no offense, but you weren't a responsible enough dog owner in training that dog as a puppy and yes, you should be 100% responsible had that dog done any damage to anyone. Training a lab to not bite is childs play.

V.hb

06-16-04, 01:06 PM

I guess it boils down to this IMO.. Many animals (espeacially dogs) are like people in a sense that we all have our own personalities. Labelling a whole breed because one attacks a small dog, or child just doesnt work. But we, as owners need to take deeper precautions when dealing with any dog or animal that has the potential to hurt another person, or animal. Any dog that has good weight to it, has the potential to inflict injuries to a human, or another dog/animal... So owners need to be responsible....... Which isn't difficult to do.

This does relate to the tiger story, because the owner didnt use enough caution when the boy approached the animal. Using a leash on a 350 pound CAT is not going to work IMO.... So he was completely at fault. Not the animal, not the boy.

ReptiliansDOTca

06-16-04, 01:15 PM

Adam, I do not even know if it is safe to that. I personally have never seen nor heard of a friendly pitbull who was not brought up properly and trained accordingly.

V.hb

06-16-04, 01:17 PM

Re-read the line "So the owner needs to be responsible. which isnt difficult to do"

That relates to proper training, and precautions... as well as intlligence to care for some of the more challenging breeds.

ReptiliansDOTca

06-16-04, 01:31 PM

Sorry, I was more referring to the labelling a whole breed thing.

Cruciform

06-16-04, 01:51 PM

David,

Sure, I agree with you there. A tiger definitely can inflict more damage. But we also see thousand of serious dog bite injuries, or horse injuries or whatever each year.

I think rather than banning, if the government *has* to get involved, I'd rather fall under a licensing system.

I'd prefer not to have the government poking themselves into every single aspect of my life, but if they have to, I'd rather it be in a way that I first show I'm responsible, and deserve the privilege, than have them dismiss exotic owners out of hand, call us all bad, and ban our pets.

As for leashed animals, I'd much rather see an aggressive breed kept in a properly enclosed yard than on a fixed-point leash. A dog in an enclosed yard may advance or retreat, and go through their normal routine when dealing with a perceived threat. A dog leashed to a tree, especially on a short leash, will become much more defense because of their exposure.
I can't remember who said it, but a few years ago, I recall seeing a conversation with a dog handler / animal control person who said that they'd rather deal with a loose animal over a chained one any day, because the loose one will probably run, but if you step into the leash area, you're now in the last area of safety that animal has, and it makes them that much more dangerous.

I've got a problem with pit bull owners. Not the dogs themselves. The court case we're involved in is a result of a poor owner that didn't supervise his dog, gave it beer, let it run loose in a yard with an open gate, and would get it worked up hanging from tires and then just leave without giving the dog a cooling down period. That's definitely not a shining example.

But even some "good" PB owners, don't exercise the diligence they should. ANY dog is capable of biting, and any cat is capable of scratching. The damage such breeds can do should be taken into account. If a breed has a stronger fight reflex, than flight reflex, they should never leave the animal alone with the others, and be extra alert when supervising.

A lot of us have gotten nipped, but when the nip comes from an animal with 1800 lbs per square inch of bite, the results can be serious, even if the intent isn't there.

I dealt with our landlord's dog issue sternly enough. When my fiance ruptured a disk in her back going over the fence to get away from the dog, who was running loose in the area we needed to go through to get to our apartment, I told them that if I found him running loose in that area again I would take my shovel and kill him, since Animal Control wouldn't come.

The dog wasn't in any real danger from me, because he's generally a good dog, just very flighty with an aggressive response. But you want to bet they stopped letting him run loose unattended immediately after that.

The son moved elsewhere and took him with him. I hope no one is seriously injured because of their poor animal care.

anacondaman

06-16-04, 01:53 PM

in response to pikachu.... i dont think it is ignorant to say that it would be better if dogs had to wear muzzles while out in public. if anything it is one of the more open sugestions . both sides win and alot of problems decrease. muzzle meens nobody gets hurt, dog and human. i have owned a dog which i had for many years, raised straight from a pup. and i never put a muzzle on the thing. but if the law was set in place i would understand completely. i dont understand what is so wrong with a muzzle it doesnt hurt the dog.

my 2 cents

mykee

06-16-04, 01:53 PM

I think it would be a good idea to 'pro-rate' dogs, the same way an insurance company 'pro-rates' cars to determine their likelihood for theft, types of drivers who buy this particular car, and so on. If we were to set up some sort of database that records all REPORTED incidents on attack, be they a stitch, a gash, or death of child, adult or other animal, then the public could become more informed as to which breeds are 'less than desireable', and therefore not as in high demand, and in turn bred less, leaving the breeding to professionals to all but kill off the BAD backyard breeders.

marisa

06-16-04, 01:56 PM

Nice post Cruciform.

One of the biggest problems with dogs today is dog owners. A LOT of bites would be preventing if people were not so lazy. Dogs need EXERCISE. Most people are too lazy to get off their butt and walk their dog (this is also shown in the amount of obese people rising each year) which leads to the dog having built up energy, anxiety and never being exposed enough to social situations.

It's really too bad.

Marisa

mykee

06-16-04, 02:00 PM

Exactly Marisa, dogs are not fish or hamsters, they require a certain level of maturity, a lot of responsibility and 8-15 years of your love and attention.

pikachu

06-16-04, 02:05 PM

Mykee...
there WERE a rash of golden retriever attacks,
i've worked in a petsore for almost 10 years, i was around when it happened.
i also OWNED a white golden retriever at the time, thats why it upset me.
ours was from england and not the weird strain that was showing up here.
i live in cabbage town in T.O. i see my fair share of pits, retrievers along with everything else. ive seen aggressive retrievers and pits, and way too many aggressive mini poodles and shitsus!
dont get me wrong i love retrievers and labs, i also love pits and rots
i think we all agree its about reponcible breeding and owning

pikachu

06-16-04, 02:18 PM

anacondaman...
i think muzzles for aggresive dogs are a great idea.
i dont believe all dogs should wear them.
like someone else was saying, Haltis are an awseome invention
its like a muzzle but provides more freedom, but you can tighten it around the mouth just in case. it provides good control over the dogs movement too.
muzzles are very restrictive, dogs can barely pant in them (their only way to release excess heat), they cannot drink or eat in them, and most dogs who wear them dont get used to them.( ive fitted dozens of them in the shop)
when safety is involved, i have no problem. sometimes i wish someone would muzzle the mini poodle thats attacks my dog!

meow_mix450

06-16-04, 02:19 PM

dont you guys think were just a little off topic?

Meow

Cruciform

06-16-04, 02:30 PM

Not really.

If you can't get people to agree on dealing with the "average" domestic pet, it's going to be very hard to present a good argument why you should have an exotic one.

pikachu

06-16-04, 02:36 PM

oh and mykee, some insurance companies beat you to your idea.
some places in canada (maybe the states too) insurance companies refuse house insurance if you own certain types of dogs
i think theyve started with shepards.
kind of a shame for decent breeders though.
speaking of breeders, my friend went through intense interviews to get his rhodesion ridgeback, wouldnt it be great if itwere like that for every dog!
by the way, i think you all have very valid opinions, this has turned into to quite the interesting thread! heeheehee

anacondaman

06-16-04, 02:37 PM

ive never herd of a haltis before. of course i do believe that would be a better choice. gives the dog the freedom and gives the security also.

adam

anacondaman

06-16-04, 02:41 PM

id actually like to hear some actual hobbiests opinions on what reptile laws they agree with. what laws would you make on owning herps.

adam

m1k3_88

06-16-04, 02:44 PM

Muzzles dont help dogs at all. If u muzzle an agressive dog, he has no outlet and when u take the muzzle off, he is only going to be more agressive to show other dogs that he's a "bad ***".
Halti's are made for stronger dogs, if a dog pulls when it has a halti on, it steers the dog's head to the side and cuts the dogs power down and makes it easier for the handler to walk the dog.

Mike

anacondaman

06-16-04, 02:47 PM

thnx for the description pidgeon..im starting to get an idea of what it is now.

adam

pikachu

06-16-04, 02:59 PM

the reptile laws in T.O are weird but kind of good in some ways.
but NO ONE abides by them. it does restrict what petsores can sell which is good i think.
Ex.(not sure but this is close)
no snakes over 3 meters
no monitors over 1 meter
no venomous reptiles, insects, or arachnids
but you can still aquire all of them.

pikachu

06-16-04, 03:05 PM

news on the tiger...
i talked to a friend of mine that used to party in london a lot.
he said they had the tiger in a club one night( completely sedated)
his friend had pictures taken with it, they just had it on a little leash!
he said it must be the the same one because it was privately owned,
unless lots of people own tigers in london!

mykee

06-16-04, 03:33 PM

Pikachu, with regards to your post about 6 or so back, I was not referring to insurance companies not insuring you if you have a 'choice breed' I was simply implying that if a 'list' of sorts was produced in black and white, by say the Humane Society of Canada, Dogs in Canada or the CKC (a respected medium) simply listing on a scale, which dogs are more prone to bite, nervousness, aggression, temperment around children from cases which have occurred, I believe that a list of this sort would stop the thoughtless purchasing of dogs on a whim which is very prevalent today.

V.hb

06-16-04, 03:48 PM

The size of lizards is 2 metres, not 1.

annieb_mice

06-16-04, 03:50 PM

Someone mentioned having a "Canine Good Citizen" test to determine whether the dog has a good temperament or not. There ARE such tests, one with the CKC for registered purebred dogs and the Temperament Test for any unregistered dog. Personally I think ALL dogs should go through these tests as it would give the owner a better idea if there is anything that might trigger the dog's aggressive response so they can take proper preventive measures. These tests have a variety of different "Scenes." Some of the scenes include a "crowd" scene where a group of people stand around the dog, then move in towards it; a loud bang or gunshot; an umbrella opening suddenly in front of the dog; an aggressive stranger; a neutral stranger; along with a variety of other scenarios. I have had a variety of dogs go through these tests and with the exception of one they all passed. The one that failed was a blue heeler/lab cross who, even after extensive training and such, was very aggressive towards anyone who tried to approach me. She was a wonderful dog in the home, but I finally decided to put her down as I knew she could never be trusted outside. I think her brain was wired wrong or something... :P
Concerning the issue of muzzles, if such a law was ever put into place where ALL dogs had to be muzzled for public safety, I would not hesitate to muzzle my dogs when they are out. I am a FIRM believer in Obedience training and both of my dogs have been trained. They are also crated when I am not home. When they are leashed and out for walks, they are NOT allowed to run free, and are always at my side.
When my dogs are home, they are free to roam through the house, including my animal rooms. My younger one actually helps me "catch" any mice or rats that might be loose by pointing them out to me and putting a paw on them so they don't get away. :) With the exception of the occassional dead pinkie, neither of my dogs have ever tried to go after any of my other animals, and believe me, they sure have the chance often enough! I allow my rabbits and chinchillas to exercise in my living room, always with me there to make sure they don't chew on anything. The chins and rabbits quickly learned that both dogs are great "toys" and love to jump on them and "play" with them. Before anyone comments, I NEVER leave the dogs alone with the "loose" animals. :)
Yes, I realize that I might be a little "harsh" with my dogs, but I want them to stay safe. I don't want anyone to have the chance to blame THEM for something just because of their breed.
Anyways...
About the tiger incident....
There is NO way anyone, even "Arnie," could possibly hold back a full grown tiger on a leash! There is a HUGE difference between a "wild" animal and a "domesticated" one. While we all disagree on what types of dogs are more aggressive, I think we can ALL agree that dogs, regardless of the breed, are DOMESTICATED animals, where a tiger is not. Dogs, cats, cattle, horses, ect have been bred by humans for thousands of years. Tigers have not. Perhaps in the distant future ALL animals could be considered "Domesticated" but that is certainly not the case now.
One last thing.... I fully agree with the statement that a snake is a lot LESS dangerous than a dog. EVERY dog has the potential to bite, some breeds having the potential to cause very serious damage. But there is NO comparison to a leopard gecko or even a ball python! Most of the common "pet" reptiles can't do even half the damage that a small poodle or chihuahua is capable of. I've been bitten by a chihuahua and a boa constrictor. I'll take a boa's bite anyday over that damn chihuahua! LOL! Heck, even a RAT can do more damage than most of the common snakes! We're all aware of how much damage even a small rat can do to a snake. ;)
Anyways... I'm gonna stop rambling here cause my meds are starting to kick in... LOL! <Oooh... look at all the purty colours!>
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

Ixidor

06-16-04, 03:54 PM

I didn't read the whole post seeing as its so long and I have very little time so, what my point was is people way back were saying it all depends on the dogs owners and how they were treated. In herpetology we have what we call "mean" snakes, this is just an example of animals even if they are bred and treated very nicely in captivity. Fact is people, some animals are just plain mean! Its there instincts as animals to be aggresive. Thats just one of the reasons I won't go near a pitbull, its in their instincts

Ixidor

06-16-04, 03:59 PM

btw I agree that some pitbulls are angels, call me stupid, im afraid im truly afraid and even though some pitbulls are nice not all are and these stories about disfiguring scars on peoples faces from them doesn't help

anacondaman

06-16-04, 04:00 PM

that is the best example ive herd since the post started ixidor.....which brings me to another...corn snakes bite sometimes too

adam

mykee

06-16-04, 04:21 PM

Annie; it was me who mentioned the Canine Good Citizen program. As a dog lover, don't you think it was a little harsh to put a dog down that was aggressive out of doors? Would a haltie not have solved that problem or the dog going to a home that had more experience with obedience training or more time to deal with the problem? My dog is aggressive with strangers in or out of the house, (mind you, they're only strangers for 32 seconds) and it would never even cross my mind to put her down.

Ixidor

06-16-04, 04:24 PM

Or you could have just kept him inside.....

meow_mix450

06-16-04, 07:49 PM

see thats the problem these days everyone is getting a bad impression on these pitts and rotts, but i bet every here that owns one will say they are very friendly and is almost like every dog, maybe more agressive. But some owners will disagree. I personly have not touched or held a snake, im afraid of them. This is cause of the media and what i see on tv. Maybe im wrong, maybe snakes arnt that bad at all, i cant really judge them cause i have never had one before, but once i do my opinion will probly change about snakes, same goes for dogs, once you own a pitt or a rott, youll probly have a different opinion

Meow

mykee

06-16-04, 07:59 PM

Well, I own 'A' dog, and from what I've witnessed with my own eyes and read, I personally, would never own one of those breeds. Good point though. However, if you're afraid of snakes, why would you own one? Fear is usually bred out of ignorance; simply not having any concrete information. I'm afraid of spiders. I don't hate them, nor do I call for their extermination, I have no interest in learning about them, and am therefore rather laissez-faire about them as a whole. Now with regards to these dog breeds, I do not fear them, I've been in contact with all of them. From that personal experience, I chose to make an educated choice to never own one. Fear and educated choices are two very different things.

meow_mix450

06-16-04, 08:02 PM

o no no no, i didnt say i hate snakes, i just have a fear about them. Fear of getting biten. But once i learn about them, and maybe handle them, ill have a different opinion, and over come my fear.

Meow

mykee

06-16-04, 08:21 PM

Meow, that was my point exactly.

reptiguy123

06-16-04, 10:02 PM

Ahem. Tigers. Tigers! Lol.:)

“My Lab would nip at people where my PB won't.”
Ouch!:D

“i WISH people had to be licenced to own pitts, staffs, rots...”
Now that is kind of discriminating. Licenses for all dogs or for none!

“btw I agree that some pitbulls are angels, call me stupid, im afraid im truly afraid”
Snake and spider fearers are not alone.

Pixie

06-17-04, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by Cruciform
Have you ever worked on a farm? Or regularly worked in an environment with guard dogs?

I've seen people who were seriously injured by both. Horses that attempt to kill anyone who comes within reach of their hooves and teeth. Dogs who can only be approached by one person. Cows that are nervous and if even the slightest noise scares them, kick you, and trample you into the dirt.

You should NEVER let a child near any animal without direct supervision, even something as small and "harmless" as a cat.

If the tiger has been socialized he's no more dangerous to the average person than an aggressive breed of dog, yet people often leave their kids alone with the family pet all the time. Hell, people buy Dalmations for their kids because of the Disney movies, and they're one of the worst breeds to leave with small children.

I grew up working with large animals. Even docile, domesticated species are deadly in the right situations. Often unintentionally.

Just because a species is a predator does not make "attacks" predatory. They will do things to people that would not harm their own kind, yet do devastating damage to our flesh. A cuff to warn someone off, or a bite across the "scruff" to discipline.

So I reiterate. Putting the child within reach of a tiger, dog, or horse without proper safeguards in place is equally irresponsible.

I have never "worked" in an environment with large animals or on a farm. I have however had many experiences with different animals throughout my life and have picked up a little from that over the years as well as from other informed sources.

The only thing that I "contest" in your post is that you seem compare the danger of exposing a child to a tiger versus a large dog or horse equally.

This is where I say that it's an unfair to compare these animals together. Had you said iguana, alligator, croc, lion, llama, dingo, hyena, etc. I wouldn't have objected. But you are comparing distinctively a wild animal to domesticated ones.

I'm not saying that dogs and horses aren't dangerous, to the contrary they can be. They sure as heck ain't as dangerous as tigers!

By your explanation, with just proper training, we'd be able to have safe and tiger pets. I don't think so. Even the best and most experienced trainers will tell you that you can never trust them completely and you can't take stupid risks like exposing them to children or any other inexperienced persons.

The biggest flaw in your comparison is the particular choice or animals you chose: dogs and horses. If you just think of it statistically, the times humans have been in contact with tigers and been injured and the times humans have been in contact with dogs or horses and been injured, the numbers would surely show the difference clearly.

Humans have had long histories or having strong relationships with canines and equines. The reason for these species having been "chosen" is their high social adaptability. To accept the dominance of humans in their life. They were also adaptable enough to learn to interact with us enough to work together. This type of relationship just isn't seen with the large majority of other species, including large felines.

Sure some tigers can be taught to do tricks but it is completely against their nature to behave this way. Sooner or later it might and most likely will resort to their wild nature.

In both dogs and horses, the subordinates (beta and lower ranks) all answer to the alpha of the group. This very nature in these species are what made them so able to be what they are today. There are centuries of selective breeding in the horses and dogs we see today for those reasons, a far cry from the tiger found in zoos and private collections.

Having said all that, I do understand that you are trying to explain that dogs and horses can be just as dangerous to us. The truth is they can be and are sometimes. Almost 100% it's our fault through bad ownership or bad breeding selections.

I'm going to bed now, my head hurts.

Pixie

pikachu

06-17-04, 01:47 PM

oops! sorry mykee!
good point though.
i think anyone who reads into what breed of dog they want will generally be able to figure out what breed they should get.
if they go to a REAL breeder, the breeder will definately be able to tell them.
when i got my pooch i read every article i could about what i might expect.
having a staff/ border collie mix is a lot of work!
they contantly test you, give them an inch they take about 5000 miles!
thats why i thing anyone that wants to own strong temperment dogs should need a license and training.
dogs that are bred to protect tend to mature later than retrievers and such, sometime up to 4-5 yrs! guard dogs need to be trained through out their lives, not just puppy school.

pikachu

06-17-04, 02:12 PM

reptileguy123,
you're right i was discriminating a bit, but its to protect the dogs!
around my area especially, way too many people have pits to look "tough" and unfortunatly, to fight them.
poor dogs dont last more than a couple of years.
either given up (seen the humane society lately?) or put down because their
instinct to protect and be aggressive, humans bred them that way but they didnt understand the detrimental effect it would have on the breed.
they were originaly called "butchers dogs" they would grab cattle by the snout and tire them out so much that the butcher could bring them in for slaughter. then someone got the bright idea to use them for bull baiting, which became illegal, then they turned to dog fighting. poor dogs!
my dog is very protective, she has saved my butt a few times (lots of drunks, druggies, and dealers in the hood) she growls and looks tough but kind of a scaredy cat. she is good with everyone unless she knows theres something wrong (dogs are cool that way)
if i didnt think i was capable to train my dog and read her body language the way i do, i simply wouldnt own this type of dog.
they are definately not for everyone. but now i couldnt live without her!

ReptiliansDOTca

06-17-04, 02:34 PM

Sure some tigers can be taught to do tricks but it is completely against their nature to behave this way. Sooner or later it might and most likely will resort to their wild nature.

Will all do respect, are you suggesting that it is in the nature of dogs and cats to sit when we ask them to, give us their paw when we ask them to, come when we ask them to, open the door when we ask them to?

Dogs started off in the wild, not in our homes. Thus, they were domesticated into house pets. Wouldn't that be the exact same case with a tiger, or any thing else for that matter?

Pixie

06-17-04, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by ReptiliansDOTca
Will all do respect, are you suggesting that it is in the nature of dogs and cats to sit when we ask them to, give us their paw when we ask them to, come when we ask them to, open the door when we ask them to?

Dogs started off in the wild, not in our homes. Thus, they were domesticated into house pets. Wouldn't that be the exact same case with a tiger, or any thing else for that matter?

If you had read my last post in its entirety, you would have seen the reasons why dogs and horses are so trainable. The big difference with these two species is that they want to do the things we ask of them. That's the part of the nature in them that responds to the desires of the alpha in their social group.

Other animals can be trained to do tricks, the big difference is that we need to reward them extensively in many fashions. Dogs especially will act upon our demands to please us, their "alpha" dog.

Why do you think it's so hard to train a housecat to do anything with JUST praise as a reward. They don't have the same social needs as dogs and most couldn't care less. It's just not a "reward" to them, if they want praise or affection, they will come around and get it when it pleases them.

And by the way, I didn't come up with these theories. These are in majority from a very educated and experienced person and one of my heros in the field of science & animals: Desmond Morris.

He has dedicated decades of research on the behaviour of animals and humans and is extensively published.

Pixie

reptiguy123

06-17-04, 06:27 PM

"Dogs started off in the wild, not in our homes. Thus, they were domesticated into house pets. Wouldn't that be the exact same case with a tiger, or any thing else for that matter?"

It is not the exact same case because tigers were not domesticated or attempted to be, for the most part.

nita

06-18-04, 03:12 AM

Well there is alot in here, where to start.

All breeds of dogd are capable of biting, usually poor husbandry and care on the owners part. My nephew nearly lost his face to a chinese pug, the dog had never been around children my nephew was only 18months old. My sister thankfully was close enough to grab him when the dog lunged, it was her MIL and FIL dog. Jack Russels are also known for biting, I think it was Natalie Embrougliah (bad spelling) who was laying on the floor curled up with her JR when he turned and took a chunk out of her face for no apparent reason. My husband was bit by a wolf/husky cross for trying to pick up a bag of peanuts of the floor at a friends house because the dog figured everything on the floor belonged to him. My mom drove courier and while delivering a package a chihuaha (sp?) came up and sank its teeth into her heel doing serious tendon damage thankfully missing the akeles (sp?) tendon. Too many stupid people own dogs unfortunately.

Almost any animal has the potential to do harm and yes even kill. My personal favorite animal is a Rotti (also fond of huskies, sheps, Dobi's without the ears and tail done, mastiffs, greyhounds, boxers, great danes, get the picture :) ) but I don't think it is fair to keep them in the city, I think they deserve a lot of space and I don't have the time to dedicate to obediance classes and taking one out for walks all the time wich they need and DH is anti large dog. My husband wants a chinese pug, no problem as long as he is willing to train it, and take care of it properly as I do my snakes. Husbandry is everything no matter the animal.

Most of my family have farms up north peace country and lots of horse back riding growing up. Yes a horse can do serious damage again all depends on the horse. I was an 1" away from being dead when the horse I was next to was spooked and reared up and jumped forward and bucked, her back hooves came an 1" from my head. She was a 2 yr old and my uncle had just started her training and my other cousin came out and scared her thinking it would be funny.

Stupid people cause bad names for animals.