hogg island boas

[da_illest]

hi, i was just reading up on them as i'm interested in obtaining one and let me tell you, i'm MAD! first off, they take so many of them from the wild that it is said they're extinct, THEN, to TOP things off, DUMBASS breeders out there are crossing them with red-tails to achieve better colors ruining the damn bloodline and slowly making them permenantly extinct... this is wrong! i'm afraid to buy one now and pay good money for it because the snake might be a cross... in which case, it'll grow larger them 5-6 feet and probably won't be as tame and all.. :mad: sorry but i had to vent and this is probably the only place where i can... we are ruining a beautiful species of snake with greed!

that said, i want to get a breeding pair of real hogg islands and they MUST be real, pure blood, hogg islands.. i won't contribute to this madness.. how can i tell if they're pure? i want to get them small to raise them.. should i get dark not so bright tailed ones in hopes they are true hoggs? can some1 please help me?

thanks!

[mark129er]

short of dna testing you can't guarantee purity. the next best thing is to buy from a reputable breeder.

[Linds]

The only way to guarantee your Hog is pure is to obtain it from a reputable source that has WC stock, or decendants of. If the lineage can be traced there is no reason that you won't have a pure Hog.

As for your remark about crossed Hogs being unhandlable, large, etc. The impression that pure Hogs are small snakes is false. Although many are, this is by no means a rule. I forget who, but a breeder down in the states has a WC male that tops out at over 7 feet. There are many recorded WC Hogs being recorded at such lengths. Also, temperament has nothing to do with it. Many pure Hogs are quite fiesty, while some are very calm. Mostly they have an amazing feeding response. I'm not sure who in Canada is working with guaranteed pure stock however. Jeff Ronne and a few others down in the states are though... :confused:

Also, there is only one "g" in Hog ;)

[Invictus]

Big Dan in Calgary is working with Sears line Hog Isles that are among the best I've ever seen. I have every confidence that they are as pure a bloodline as you can get in Canada.

Da Illest, I share your sentiment about people crossing Hogs with Colombians. This is utterly disgusting in my opinion, especially when you consider that there are rumored to be none left on Hog Island. Key word there is rumored - there is actually no confirmation of this, and it is also rumored that this is a false claim that was made to keep prices high.

[da_illest]

thanks for the replies... it is disgusting that people are crossing a species that may be extinct in the wild over greed... shouldn't this species be endangered? i swear if i was bill gates i'd get a bunch of guarenteed pure blood ones, start up a huge breeding facility and release them into the wild... in their habitat.. although it's only rumored and people haven't seen any since the mid 80's, either these snakes are doing a really good job at hiding or there really isn't many left... the last one being the probable case... i want one because i think they're buetiful snakes and they stay small.. even a 7 foot one is small to me... at least it's not like my red-tail who'll get 10-12 feet...

i think they're may still be a few in the wild but they're chances of them surviving as a race thru breeding are slim since they probably don't have many mates or they're hard to find...

[da_illest]

also, somebody is offering me a pair at a decent price and i'm not sure i want them now...

[Invictus]

Don't count on your redtail getting 10-12 feet, dude. Anything over 9 is exceptionally rare, and about 80% of all redtails will top out at even less than that.

[BoidKeeper]

I have four hogs in all. Two came from Mike Vince the other two are wild caught. Before you all start saying how can they be wild caught let me explain. They came from Reptile Headquaters who got them from Boamania who imported them from Ben Siegel as "San Andres Island Boas". The story goes that 33 were imported from San Andres Island and they were the only 33 in captivity. Of that 33, 10 were purchased by boamania. He posted them last year. As a matter of fact, Boamania's post with pics of some of the San Andres" can still be found in the boa forum. Of the two that I own one of them is in boamanias original post.
Here is the female of the two, She is in the pic boamania posted.
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/289HGF2_2_17_03_04-med.jpg

Even before I perchased my new Hogs from Reptile Headquarters I knew that they were Hogs. Once I received them I started a corespondence with Vin Russo who works with dwarf boas in the US and recently wrote an article on dwarf boas for reptiles magazine. He was familiar with my new snakes because Ben had offered to sell them to him as San Andres boas. He told me he passed on them because he knew that they were Hogs. I asked him about the eyes on these guys because they are slightly larger then on a Hog. He told me that all the Hogs that were imported back in the 70's had large eyes. What he believes is that yes Hogs may be extintc on the large main island, however these snakes were probably collected from one of the smaller islands.
I have all my email correspondence between him and I and between Ben and I. All Ben would say about them was that yes he sold them to boamania. Vin on the other hand believes that I have a pair of wild caught Hog Island Boas. The blood doesn't get any more pure then that.
Cheers,
Trevor

[still_matic]

Originally posted by Invictus
Don't count on your redtail getting 10-12 feet, dude. Anything over 9 is exceptionally rare, and about 80% of all redtails will top out at even less than that.

really? thank god... i knew it could get up to 10-12 feet and i accepted full responsibilty for it before i bought it.. i had done TOO much research on their husbandry and have a custom cage plan and everything.. i'm kinda happy cause i've never owned a snake at even 8 feet! that seems like a lot but no wear near 10 or 12... thanks.. this is nothing like my KSB i owned (which sadly died of impaction and regurgitated every meal i gave it.. damn aspen!) in the sense that my KSB would have gotten no wear near this size... i actually have a breeding pair of suriname red-tails... nothing wrong with pure blood CBB pets i say, it's a matter of ethics to me...

[still_matic]

..........................

[da_illest]

Trevor, although i had to read your story a few times over before i got dizzy and somewhat understood what you said :D :), lol, i figured out in the end that you have pure hoggs and that you went thru a HOLE lot a' trouble to get them.. congrats though, beautiful snakes man...

now, about them still being on the surrounding islands... it's not the same in my opinion... maybe the ones from surrounding islands had differences in them that the main island ones didn't, like bigger eyes or something... i still think it's bs and i think that any breeder who hybridizes them is not even a herper but a greedy motha'.. what's the deal with that? i'm against hybrid pets in the hobby mainly because if somebody sells a hybrid of, lets say for example, a hogg island boa and a suriname red-tail boa.. ok, so they sell it as A GORGEOUS SUPER ALBINO OR WHATEVER HOGG ISLAND BOA! 2000 BUCKS ONLY!! then some poor fools like me go and purchase them and breed them and in the future we end up with animals that aren't even what we think they are... you know what i mean? or we end up with nothing but god damn hybrids, which may look nice, but aren't pure blooded kinda ruining the true collectors such as myself... also, to top it off, the snakes are said to be extinct!! shiiiiiid man... that's pure bs

thanks for the replies though

[Leviathan]

Da illest

I have a small collection of Hogs and would DEFINATLEY reccommend Dans stock! I have one female from him and she is by far the most beautiful snake in my collection! If you saw her mother she is nothing in comparisson but my little girl is still very pretty. Here is a pic of her in her light phase.[img]http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/4639misspinkie-med.JPG[img]

I also have another pair that are very nice hogs that I might be putting up for sale this month but I am undecided at this time. I will keep you in mind though.

Alecia

[Leviathan]

sorry didn't get the pic there
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/500/4639misspinkie-med.JPG

[Jeff_Favelle]

Annette (Wrapped Up in Reptiles) and Jon K. (Niagra Reptiles) both have TREMENDOUS Hog Island Boas.

[BoidKeeper]

da illest,

Well I went looking for the original post from Boamania about the San Andres Boa but it seem to have vanished. So have the pics in his gallery.
Anyway long story short the snakes I have were imported off an island, not bred in captivity. They were called San Andres boas but just looking at them and after consulting some knowlegable keepers in the US it is obviouse they are Hogs. So if they are imports and look like Hogs then that can only mean one thing right?
Trevor

[BoidKeeper]

da_illest,

Here is the link to the post with my new Hogs in it. Boa mania San Andreas (http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8209)
Also here is one of the pics he posted of a hog and a San Andrea,
http://www.ssnakess.com/photopost/data/508/249san_adreas_and_hog_island-med.jpg
I now own the "San Andrea" in that pic. Can you tell which is the Hog and which is supposed to be the "San Andres" There is no "a" in the actuall name of the island.
Cheers,
Trevor

[da_illest]

@everyone else: thanks for the replies and for understanding me being pissed off about that cross breeding bs... also, to you people with true hoggs, can you PM me with a price and pic if at all posiible and when posible? they must be pure hoggs and i ask for some backround info on them as well.. thanks! also, the person that posted the pics of his/her hoggs, BEAUTIFUL man.

@BoidKeeper: that's crazy man, that boa has HUGE eyes! wow! it looks like a cartoon snake.. i like it... not too shabby... i'm guessing the one with the big eyes is the hogg island am i right? i'm guessing that because you mentioned that all the hoggs imported in the 70's had larger eyes... cool snakes man.. also, are you in canada? can you ask that dude you got yours from if he still deals with them and a price or two? that'd be great... i don't currently have the money but i'm willing to sell a couple snakes of mine for a hogg or two... thanks!

ps. there is a buddy of mine who got some and was willing to sell me a pair but i'm not too sure on their backround..

[JaredAren]

We have pure hogs that have descended from WC Sears stock. It is a myth that they stay small because I have seen a few from this line acheive 7ft. Here is an old pic of one of our females. She was almost 6ft in the pic and is now approaching 7ft.

http://showcase.netins.net/web/reptiles/stuff/31.JPG

[Drew S]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
Annette (Wrapped Up in Reptiles) and Jon K. (Niagra Reptiles) both have TREMENDOUS Hog Island Boas.

Agreed. My female Hog came from Wrapped Up in Reptiles, and every shed she gets more beautiful. I highly recommend :D

[Jeff_Favelle]

Trev, those snakes in the pic look totally different (from my eyes anyways). One is WAY more faded, has an orange tail and non connecting saddles. The other one has a way redder tail, is darker, has more contrast and looks more "Colombian". I'm not saying that all Hogs are the same, but those two snakes look somewhat different.

[BoidKeeper]

da_illest, Contact Grant VG he had his pair for sale.
Jeff, they are no more different then then a nice and not so nice Colombian if you ask me. Also that pic I'm told was taken at like three am. Compared to my other hogs they have the exact same markings but the colours are a little different but no different then placing two colombians next to each. I bet if you went to colombian today and took home a boa and compared it to your hets you might think they were different snakes too.
Also Vin Ruso says that they look like the original Hogs that were imported back in the 70s. They speckling has been bred out of some and they eyes have gotten smaller through selective breedin as well but in the biggening they were large.
As for people saying that they have "Sears" line Hogs, how do you prove it? The reason I ask is because if people are going to tag an extra $100 to the price I'm sure the customer is going to want some kinda of proff. Also who's to say that Sears hogs haven't been crossed some where along the way. Just because someones snake is related to the snakes that Dr. Sears imported back in the 70s doesn't mean it isn't also the decendent of a sears cross as well. Even if it was crossed with a Hog that wasn't Sears line that would still make not as Sears line any more wouldn't it?
Cheers,
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

Also Vin Ruso says that they look like the original Hogs that were imported back in the 70s.

That's SOME photographic memory of 30-years ago! Holy moly!

I'm not saying that those snakes are anything this or anything that. I'm just saying that my eyes tell me they look different. Whether its subspecific differences or interspecific differences, I don't think anyone here is qualified to answer that.

As for name dropping and naming the "line", I have no idea why people do that. I used to do that with my Jungles, but now I just try and give pictures and make the best ones. There's no way of telling that any line is pure and even if it is, like you said, it could have been crossed further down the line. As long as its phenotypically as close as can possibly be, all the buyer can do is take the breeder's word for it. Is the extra $100 bones worth the "name" for other Hogs? Not to me. But would an exceptionally cool or arberrant Hog from ANY line be worth a bit more to me? Yeah, probably.

I've got 10 adult Hog Island Boas from 6 different sources/breeders. They all pretty much look the same to me. Except one pair has less speckling. No biggie. As far as I can tell, a Hog is a Hog is a Hog. Until someone comes out with a line that is TRULY spectacular, they are all worth the same in my books.

Now what IS that price? Good question. What should the going price be?

Sorry to hi-jack the thread. I can post this question in a new thread if desired.

[BoidKeeper]

I think it's all on topic Jeff.
As for your 10 adults I'd be curiouse to know what sizes they are?
Cheers,
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

2 @ 4 feet, 4 @ 5 feet, 3 @ 3 feet and one little guy at 2.5 feet.

[BigDan]

Boidkeeper first off how do you prove you have what you have.

They were bought from boamania a guy who did not know his *** from a hole in the ground and was one of the most unreputable guys in the industry.

I know because I too bought animals from him and they were not what he said they were.

Could this have happened in your case as well and any other poor sap that bought all those animals when he decided he could not look after them anymore.

The ones I recevied had mites and looked as if they had not even seen food for most of their miserable little lives in his care.

If you are basing your credibility on the fact they came from Boa mania you may end up with none.

I have kept my mouth shut for too long and I hope I have not offended anyone else but I am tired of basically being called a liar everytime boidkeeper decideds he wants to prove authenticity of his animals.

I sell my animals for what they are very nice looking Hog Island boas that as far as I know are the Sears line. Many other breeders out there have very nice animals as well. I had the pleasure of looking at Jon's Hog Islands when I was in Toronto and would say they are top notch.

The other part of the equation is you also get an animal that is sexed properly, clean, and eats a frozen thawed rodent at the drop of a hat.

Great looking animal with a fairly reliable lineage + sexed properly + no mites + well started and eating properly = $50 dollars more than most Hogs out there. Is it worth it I would say so.

I am also sure many other people are already and will be producing outstanding animals down the road.

If you want quality expect to pay for it and stop crying about paying $400 or more for a great looking Hog Island boa.

I have sold many Hog Islands over the last 3 seasons (approx 90 after this season) and I am quite sure all the people who bought from me were very pleased with the animals they received. I have also viewed many of the babies I have sold when they have matured and all have turned into outstanding juveniles and adults.

Jeff why would you not pay extra for a better looking animal if I remember correctly you sell your Jungle carpets for more than most??

Gord Redman breeds some outstanding Jungle Carpets and charges half of what you charge.

Are yours twice as good?

Take it as you will

Dan

[Jeff_Favelle]

The ones I recevied had mites and looked as if they had not even seen food for most of their miserable little lives in his care.

This brings back wonderful memories of the INFAMOUS "please donate rats and money to Boa Mania" ad. Too funny.

You said:

Jeff why would you not pay extra for a better looking animal if I remember correctly you sell your Jungle carpets for more than most??

But I said:

Is the extra $100 bones worth the "name" for other Hogs? Not to me. But would an exceptionally cool or arberrant Hog from ANY line be worth a bit more to me? Yeah, probably.


So I'm completely BAFFLED why you would think that I said I wouldn't pay extra for a better-looking animal, because I SAID RIGHT THERE THAT I WOULD! LOL! I'm confused.............I said I wouldn't pay for a name. I also said I would pay extra for cool or arberrant-looking animals. Hmmm......weird. Maybe I worded it wrong?

How does ANYONE know what I charge for my Jungles, LOL!! I haven't put up a single ad in Canada yet! LOL! If peeps want Gord's Jungles, they should go right ahead. I ain't worried. I'm down to 74 left now, and I haven't even hit or advertised the screamers yet. I control what I charge, not Gord or anyone else that has them. Don put an ad up for $400 for pairs. He phoned me that night and said "sorry about that". I wasn't worried. Why should I be, LOL. I've sold more this year already than anyone's produced. LOL! I want to keep the rest anyways.

And if Redmen wants to charge $112.50 (which is 1/2 of what I charge for animals of that grade), then he can go right ahead. Kudos to all the buyers for the good deal! :D

[BigDan]

I guess that was my point all along, you are not paying for the Sears name!!!

Dan

[mark129er]

I know I wouldn't mind paying extra for better looking animals, if/ when Jeff sells some more of his hatchling carpets I will probably get one or two regardless of what others have for sale for less. I have seen pics of his hatchlings, the breeders and they all look killer. I figure you get what you pay for. Just my 2 cents

[BoidKeeper]

I am tired of basically being called a liar everytime boidkeeper decideds he wants to prove authenticity of his animals
Who called you a liar? There is no reason for you to take it personally everytime I talk about my Hogs. I'm not implying anything about your Hogs at all. I never said that anyones Hogs were any less pure than anyone elses. All I said was just because a Hog is Sears line doesn't mean it hasn't been crossed at some point. No need to jump down my throat. I never said anything about you or your animals. I don't know anything about you or your animals. You've got great Hogs and I've contacted you about them. There was no need to get offended or take any of this personally.
As for my two in question, I know Mike was a dink, I'm not relying on any of his info at all. I will however post the emails I received from both Ben S and Vin Ruso. It was Vin Ruso who confirmed that the animals were imported by Ben S to me not Mike. Ben S offered to sell them to Vin. It is Vin Ruso who told me that he believes they are WC caught Hogs not Mike. I putting my faith in what Vin Ruso said not Mike.
Can I prove any of it no of course not. But I would rather believe that they are WC Hogs than believe they are WC San Andres boas. Ben S imported and sold them to Mike that much is fact, what island they came from, well since I wasn't there personally I can't say.
as far as I know are the Sears line.
As far as I know based on the info I have mine are WC Hogs.
Cheers,
Trevor

[BoidKeeper]

Oh and I forgot to address the price part of you post.
I paid $500 a piece for the last two Hogs I bought so I personally have no problem paying more for an animal if it's what I'm looking for.
Trevor

[Corey Woods]

Dan,

Good post.

Corey

[leoncurrie]

Ok everyone.... Coffee break... go cool down somewhere. :)

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by Jeff_Favelle
How does ANYONE know what I charge for my Jungles, LOL!!

http://members.shaw.ca/jefffavelle/jcp_grade.htm LOL!



And if Redmen wants to charge $112.50 (which is 1/2 of what I charge for animals of that grade), then he can go right ahead. Kudos to all the buyers for the good deal! :D

Gord produces some really amazing jungles, and I think some his breeding stock originated exactly from where some of yours did.

And he doesn't charge $112.50, he charges $150-$175 - and they aren't "grade C".

Ryan