Release day

[Cruciform]

With the weather having been fairly warm lately, it seemed the appropriate time to release the winter stowaways back into the wild.

Both garters were taken out to a small watering hole at Hawk's Cliff outside St. Thomas. The frog and minnow population there should keep them quite happy. I'm sure there are leeches too, but I didn't investigate that too much :)

After being kept on bark all winter, the snakes almost seemed to sigh with pleasure as they sank into the deep grass near the path. They wriggled around a big, took their bearings, and disappeared into the grass toward their new feeding ground.

Hopefully they'll fare better there than they would have hiding out in our offices. :)

I'll miss the little twirps. They had a lot of character.

[JD@reptiles]

i think if you collect somthing, you should keep it. taking it out of the wild for a while and letting it go agian can mess it up...(espeshily if you take it away before hybernation.) glad to hear they they were happy though.

Jordan

[Oliverian]

Well, I think you did the right thing anyways. Congrats on the sucessful release!

[Sean_.E.]

Can I ask you why you collected these snakes and kept them for the winter? This can really effect the animals hibernation cycle and in general is not a practice which has a positive impact on the snakes, in my oppinion. I'm sure you have your reasons and meant well but I wouldn't exactly recommend doing it again.

Sean E.

[Jeff_Favelle]

COOL!! That's awesome! Shoulda got a video of it!

[mettle]

Originally posted by Sean_.E.
Can I ask you why you collected these snakes and kept them for the winter? This can really effect the animals hibernation cycle and in general is not a practice which has a positive impact on the snakes, in my oppinion. I'm sure you have your reasons and meant well but I wouldn't exactly recommend doing it again.

Sean E.

Judging from the original post where it mentioned 'hiding out in our offices' I'm guessing these were snakes that had made their way inside somewhere with the intent to hibernate, or what have you. And this person simply took pity on them and rather than discarding them into the cold took care of them for the winter?

Just guessing.

[sapphire_moon]

basicly, look up a few old posts :)

[Cruciform]

mettle has it right.
They turned up in our offices when the weather was in the minuses, and the options were

a) dump them outside

b) take them home, because the boss didn't want them getting electrocuted in a warm power supply and neither did I.

They were able to "hunt" for their meals during captivity. I supplemented them with dead mice, but they mainly chased live fish and worms in their enclosure. They saw very little handling, about 5 times total in the entire duration, as my intent was to release them. I was hoping their mating sessions would give me a baby I could keep, but no luck.
I believe the female was due for babies in late July, but didn't want to wait any longer now that the weather has been fairly stable.

Sean: maybe if you did a search of previous threads or actually read the post in entirety, you would have realized they weren't just snatched from the wild.

They weren't captive bred snakes, and didn't relish captivity. Now they've had a chance to survive the winter, and possibly reproduce. That's already better than what was in store for them if one of my coworkers had decided to exterminate them or they had died by accident.

I hope they thrive in their new home, which was the best place I could find in the area to release them. But if they get eaten by another animal, then they're still fulfilling their place within the food chain.

[JD@reptiles]

Well. i am with sean. if you had done it properly, you would have hybernated them as soon as you got them, because thats what the snakes were doing. finding a place to hybernate. also they probably wont be able to find a place to hybernate next year depending on where you let them go. I am glad that you did take these snakes before they got killed by a dumbass person. but you should have hybernated the snakes so you wouldn't throw there cycle off...

Jordan

[YummyCdnMale]

I'm willing to bet those snakes are now scratching there heads saying to themselfs.... man did we have it made or what!... Kidding!... once in captivity like that it's very hard for snakes to readapt, You had the snakes for what 6 months?.... That's along time BUT!!! if you were to recieve a jail sentence of 6 months would you forget what the "outside world was about? Would it throw you off socialy?... maybe! this is a big debate as you say they were hiding in an electrical panelgood warmth, i am sure lots of mice as well as mice love those spots as well , but on the other hand companys like puting mice poison down very freely. The snakes may have died by electrical shock, poison, humans afraid of snakes, etc etc, I feel you did the right thing and done the snakes more good then harm, do you really think they were in that warmth to hibernate?... I doubt it i firmly believe they were there for the heat as well as the mice, and whos to say this was not the snakes pattern to come indoors during winter and not hibernate. I have had a ball python 5 yrs and has only hibernated once but on the other hand my friends hibernates every year and there brother and sister!.... My guess is you did the right thing after all i would have did that too! and as these forums are here for opinions i am just voicing mine. After all it's not like you went herping and decided to keep a few you simply saved a snake from almost certain death and may have also saved your boss from having a serious fire!

Take it easy , Rob

[Simon Sansom]

C'mon, people - He did the animals a favour.

Snakes are pretty much "hard-wired", behaviour-wise, and I don't think that 100 million years of evolved behaviours are going to be disrupted by six months in captivity.

Good job!

Simon R. Sansom

[Cruciform]

JD: They mated the minute I got them home. I wasn't going to stick a possibly pregnant female in the cold.

The mating didn't take, but it can take 6 months to find out, seeing as garters can retain sperm that long.

If some of you want to turn this into a trial, come to St. Thomas and we'll sit down and discuss every last little detail until you're completely satisfied.

I was just posting an update because when I first found them there were people who were interested in hearing about them again at release time.

PS. And to the supporters, thanks :) If I see them down at the cliffs again, I'll give them your best wishes :D

--edit for typo, not for content--

[Removed_2815]

Jeez guys... I can't believe what I have been reading. I am always the first person to jump down another's throat after they've removed a snake from the wild, but this is a commendable act. He saved the snakes from certain death and I can all but guarantee you that the snakes will be just fine, don't worry about any stunted rhythms.
Cruciform, most of these posters don't have their stories straight to begin with so don't worry about their opinion.
We're all aware of the pitfalls of an acclimatized snake being released into the wild, no need to preach, these are still wild animals - they will survive (barring any unforeseen happenstance).
Regards,
R
P.S. I worry that this negativity will persuade the next person that finds a snake indoors in December to just toss it out into the snow-bank.....
snow-bank = 100% certainty of death, anything else = less than 100% certainty of death... come to your own conclusions.

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Hibernation is a natural instinct that follows through with photoperiods and temperatures, the animals will reacclimatize to natural living. They didn't forget. Besides, if that was the case, people wouldn't be able to skip hibernation season one yr then do it the next.. And, I don't think the garter snakes went into the building for mice..
I would be more worried about pathogens that were maybe released with the snakes..

But good deal either way. Hope they make it.

[Removed_2815]

Originally posted by KrokadilyanGuy3

I would be more worried about pathogens that were maybe released with the snakes..

That would be my only concern as well.
I figure that there is likely nothing a human can pass on to a reptile (reverse zoonosis? ;)) that will affect the wild populations, hopefully. However, if the Garters were in contact with other reptiles then a possible pathogen could be spread....

[Cruciform]

No worries Ryan. They weren't in contact with any, and during feedings I wash my hands with disinfectant soap between each animal.

Beats contamination OR getting bit for food scenting :)

[Removed_2815]

Again, good job Mike! You should feel good about helping them out...
Cheers,
Ryan

[Fishandsnakelov]

To everyone who jumped on Cruciform's case lighten up. Put yourselves in the snakes position. Would you rather be kept in a secure, warm, rather comfortable location?... or Would you rather be just dumped out in the cold where you would freeze to death in a matter of minutes or hours? Nuff said.


Great act of Kindness award presented to Cruciform !!!!

[Vanan]

Good job Mike! Did you get that awesome queasy feeling your stomach seeing them go. Always happens to me whenever I release something wild. It's like a plus point for Mother Nature. Good job again mate!

[Cruciform]

I was just amazed to see how they basically vanished into the grass only a foot in front of me. By watching very carefully I could see them moving off, but if I hadn't have set them there myself I never would have noticed.

I also scared the bejeezus out of a deer who came down to drink and the crashing and smashing of trees as he fled was quite an adrenaline getter :)

[sapphire_moon]

lol, glad the snakes were well!

Nothing like a deer crashing into trees...lol

[justinO]

good job mike. Regardless of people's opinions, they have a better chance now then they did last winter.

[JD@reptiles]

Hey, dont get me wrong, you did everything with great intentions, and i might have done the same thing in your case! but the snakes MAY not be able to readapt. thats all i wanted to point out.

Jordan

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

Good to see common sense. Good job, Mike. Get any pics of the animals at all?

[Jeff Hathaway]

Hey Mike,

Undoubtably, you did a good thing, and certainly better than just tossing them outside in the snow. Very glad to hear that you took precautions with respect to pathogens. Risks to the wild populations should always be a much greater concern in these cases than the effects on the one or two individuals.

However, I would also agree that hibernating the snakes would have been preferable. The reality is that we don't know if it will 'throw them off' or not. I personally think that garters are very adaptable and that they should do just fine either way. But, why not err on the safe side and follow their natural schedule? I don't think you needed to be worried about the female. Garters, and many other snakes (including eastern hognoses) have been recorded mating in the fall in the wild, prior to hibernation. Plus, hibernating them would have been less work:-)

I see that I've taught Jordan and Sean well:-) Good to see you guys questioning something like this, though don't be too quick to judge.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Cruciform]

Heya Jeff,

Yeah, I was probably overly cautious in worrying about her hibernating while pregnant. In the end that mating never took anyway. They didn't mate again until spring when the first fresh earthworms became available.

She's increased in girth, but I still have no idea if she was carrying. It would have been nice to see the babies if she was, but they'll be better off born in their natural setting:)

And for those asking for pics, I didn't have the camera with me when I released them. There's a couple of pics of them in my gallery though.

Hawk's Cliff looks like it might be a nice place to do some herping, but I've never encountered so many mosquitos in my life. The hot spell this week must have given them a boost because there were so many it actually sounded like machinery. No West Nile symptoms yet though. :D

[Ontario_herper]

I agree with Jeff in regards to the fact that it is really unknown whether or not the snake would be confused by its lack of dormancy. We can all share our opinions but it IS unknown.

One thing that is a fact is that captive snakes can and do carry all sort of nasty pathogens. Enough precaution cannot be taken when bringing a wild herp into a home with captive reptiles. I hope that you not only washed your hands in between handling but also kept these animals in a seperate area of the house and changed clothes etc.... in between handling.

I am of the firm belief that (once again) enough precaution cannot be taken against disease transmition. I believe this to be especially true when involving wild reptiles.

I'd rather see two garters die than see two garters live and be released back into the wild only to wipe out an entire population.

Just my thoughts.....

[Ontario_herper]

BTW... I'm not attacking you Mike. Just sharing my opinion on bringing wild herps into captivity, on a whole.

[Cruciform]

If only there were better quarantine procedures on import animals.

The spectre of IBD and other pathogens looms over us constantly.

[Ontario_herper]

Sorry, What I meant was wild herps into captivity with the goal of re-release.

[Cruciform]

I know, was just adding to it :)

[HtotheB]

On an unrelated note when I was young my father used to take me to Hawk's Cliff sometimes to bird watch. I remember it to be a very nice location

[Cruciform]

You should take a drive out there, it's probably changed considerably. Since early spring of this year parts of the cliff have washed away, taking about 20 feet off, and completely obliterating one of the farming roads that ran parallell to the edge.

The bird watching is crazy too :)

Last night on my way into London, we stopped by Wonderland and Ferguson Line to watch some RC airplane pilots fly their toys. We couldn't stay long so came back on the way home, and checked to see if they were there. It was dark but I was hoping they had some night flyers.
Instead we saw the most fireflies I've ever seen in one place. It was quite cool to watch :)

[MouseKilla]

I'd be interested to know what makes anyone think that an animal can be "thrown off" a brumation cycle, at least for any more than a single season.

As far as I know these things are triggered in the animal by outside conditions, namely temperature, humidity and photoperiod, they don't choose to do it or learn it, it's genetically hardwired into them to do it once the conditions are there.

If they happened to miss winter completely this year and therefore didn't brumate I don't see why they wouldn't automatically cycle properly the following year.

I have snakes that didn't cycle for the first 3 years of their lives but as soon as I decided to put them in the cold room in the fall they did their thing over the winter as normal and came out in the spring ready to make babies. Sound like any CB colubrids you know? Why would wild snakes have to cycle each year when captive bred ones do just fine brumating some years and not others or never brumating at all?

I don't think any harm could come from keeping them warm all winter and in this case it was certainly better than the certain death alternative.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Well, mousekilla, I don't have the papers in front of me, but I recall a study of black rat snakes in eastern Ontario, where specific snakes were tracked over several years. Individuals tended to go into hibernation and emerge from it within a few days of the same time each year, regardless of above ground environmental cues such as temperature. Photoperiod could certainly be a factor in them going down, but I don't see it as very likely for emergence. So, there may be some things built into them regarding the timing that we don't understand, and if we don't understand it, I say err on the safe side as much as is reasonably possible.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[MouseKilla]

Jeff,

That certainly is an interesting fact and I'd agree that we probably don't know all there is to know about the hibernation and breeding processes. In the case of wild snakes it is impossible to argue against meddling as little as possible, but in the case in discussion I think this was done. He intervened because the alternative was almost certain doom, it seems.

What I was trying to say was that I don't see what harm could come from missing a season of hibernation. I guess "harm" is one of those tricky, subjective words but I was speaking mainly in the context of reproductivity. Maybe they would be thrown off in that given season but the following season, I think we have ample reason to believe, they would hibernate and breed as normal.

You wouldn't happen to know where I might find that study of black rats online would you? Sounds interesting.

[Jeff Hathaway]

No doubt I think it was better than the alternative:-)

I doubt that the black rat study is available online. Most scientific journal articles are not. At this point, I can't even remember what journal it was in, but the study was done at Murphy's Point PP, I believe by researchers from Queen's. Perhaps Ryan could dig up a reference since he's got easy access to a reference library...

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Removed_2815]

I am up in Algonquin right now at the Wildlife Research Station tracking the nesting Snappers and Painteds. I will have a look when I get back, likely Friday. Sounds like a study that Gabriel from Ottawa might have been involved in...
Cheers,
Ryan

[MouseKilla]

Sweet! Thanks guys.

[Removed_2815]

Here is a .pdf of the study done in 2000 by Gabriel Blouin-Demers, Prior and Weatherhead. This is likely the study that Jeff was thinking of.
Patterns of variation in spring emergence by black rat snakes (Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta) (http://aix1.uottawa.ca/~gblouin/articles/2000_01.pdf)
R

[MouseKilla]

Right on, I'll check it out. Thanks

[Sean_.E.]

There are some very interesting opinions in this thread. I especially agree with Dave Smith.

Sorry, for jumping down your throat Cruciform. I over exaggerated the situation because I did not know all the facts. When I responded I obviously did not see you previous post(s) and just reading this post, it seems as if you just took garters out of the wild for the winter, just for fun. I responded with an opposing attitude because I have seen and heard of people just simply taking animals out of the wild (not only over the winter) for their personal amusement, etc. Not knowing what they are doing and negatively impacting the animal(s). I just get so annoyed when I see this.



In one case I got a call from a family who had taken a young snapping turtle from their cottage in the Muskokas. They wanted to know If I wanted it because they taken it from their cottage a few months before but didn't know how to keep it, feed it, or take care of it in general. Now, okay that doesn’t sound too bad, but… It was late fall by this time, temperatures were below zero outside, the parents were allowing the kids to handle and play with the turtle on a regular basis, they had also brought it into school where students were allowed to hold and touch it and who knows what else.



The family asked me if I would take the tiny young turtle off their hands, I didn’t really want a young snapper but said I WOULD either:



1.Take it off there hands for the winter, (keeping it in quarantine) and give it back them in the spring (or whenever they went to their cottage) to release it where it was found.



OR



2. Contact someone who I knew, that has experience with native species and see if they could deal with it.



Well, a long story short, the family told me they would call me back and never did. So I called them and they told me that they had just simply released the turtle in a near by stream.



Unless this turtle was EXTREMELY lucky he died with in a short period of time after being released.



So to conclude and make my point, I think you did do a good deed for these garters and I apologize for my ignorance. I still do believe that, for arguments sake, keeping a wild snake over the winter CAN negatively impact it. I hope that the snakes you released survive and do well.



Sean E.

[HEVYCHEVY427]

Go away for 3-4 months and come back...things never change...all you ever hear is cut up, cut down,criticize, beat on, whine,debase, humiliate, and in general treat people who do not conform to your way of thinking as crap.
I always thought the purpose of forums was information and comradery.
NOT!!

[Cruciform]

Well, there's always lots of disagreements, but nobody has to have the same opinions.

The thing about these forums is that personal attacks are virtually unheard of. People might take a strong except to what others do, but name-calling is rare.

Blood may boil, but at least no one's feelings are getting hurt :D

[Linds]

Originally posted by YummyCdnMale
once in captivity like that it's very hard for snakes to readapt,

Snakes aren't like some of the higher-functioning animals out there that will not be able to be successfully released back in to the wild (ie- a handraised lion) . They are hard-wired, and nothing we can do will influence that. They don't have to readapt to the outdoors - the (unfortunately) many snakes that have escaped in the warmer states that thrive - regardless of whether it was overnight or for years - are a good example of this.

[JD@reptiles]

This post is turning into some stupid $h!t. You did the right thing by taking the snakes out of the building. but now you know for the future to keep them seperate and hybernate them. way to go on the rescue.

Jordan