Safe temps for ball incubator..

[mykee]

Curious to know what you guys think are safe temps for ball eggs in an incubator. My new incubator, with my Helix DBS-1000, fluctuates from 88.5 to 90.5. Is that going to be a problem, or am I just over-worrying?

[Ron]

I think you should be fine; I've heard of people incubating BP eggs from 88 - 92F. I might worry if I had a 5 degree fluctuation but +/- 1 degree should be fine.

[Jeff_Favelle]

That's fine. Once, in '96, I had a clutch go from 86F to 95F in 36 hours. LOL! They all hatched just fine. But a 2-degree change is just fine. Plus when you actually put eggs in there, the change will LESSEN. Yep. Eggs will buffer and hold a TON of heat, thus moderating the highs and lows even further.

[BoidKeeper]

My Helix keeps it almost always at 89 where I set it. I did climb to 92 a few times but 99% of the time the helix says 89.
Are you using a wet or dry incubator?
Cheers,
Trevor

[mykee]

Trevor, I have a 'cabinet' incubator that has glass sliding doors, 11" heat tape on the top and bottom to provide heat, and a fan in the middle to move the air. The actual clutches of eggs are sitting in a few rubbermaids, elevated 4" off the floor with fluorescent (sp?) heavy duty plastic grating. They have the typical perlite/vermiculite mixed as per the Sutherlands, with the Helix probe sitting in one of the rubbermaids, suspended 3" off the eggs. I noticed the difference in temps by placing a different temp probe in each of the rubbermaids and paying attention over the last couple of days. That's the thing, my Helix DBS-1000 shows 89 constantly, but the new temp. probes don't lie; 88.5-90.4

[BoidKeeper]

Interesting, what are these new temp probes? It's pretty cool, my laser temp and helix are calabrated with out me even trying.
Cheers,
Trevor

[mykee]

Just a couple $15 indoor/outdoor digital thermometers from Wal-Mart thrown in to the incubation rubbermaids along with the Helix probe to find out HOW off the Helix is. Answer: as many as two full degrees. Kinda sad really, I have 4 other Helix DBS-1000's in use for my snakes, but never realized how 'off' they could be. Maybe it's time to start looking into alternate proportional thermostats...

[crocdoc]

Mykee, may I make a suggestion? Try taking the Helix probe out of the rubbermaid and putting it somewhere central in the incubator itself. You'll get fewer temperature spikes that way.

Here's why: A sealed rubbermaid with eggs and vermiculite/perlite will have a fair bit of thermal lag. Let's say that the thermostat probe sends out the instruction to the thermostat to warm up the incubator half a degree. With your current set-up, the heat tape would warm up, taking the incubator temperature up to the desired level. The rubbermaids, however, being fairly well insulated themselves, will take a while longer to warm up. By the time the thermostat probe inside the rubbermaid gets up to the desired temperature and switches the heat tape off, the incubator may be several degrees warmer than the desired temperature. If your incubator is well insulated, the warm air in the incubator may continue to heat up the rubbermaid long after the thermostat switched the heat tape off, eventually taking the eggs to a higher temperature than desired. They eventually do drop again, though, and then the whole process starts over.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Crocdoc is RIGHT. Latent heat is your problem right now in a big way. Stop calibrating the temp in the egg chamber and start calibrating the incubator as whole. It WILL stop the fluctuation. For sure.

[Tim_Cranwill]

Mykee, I have put 3 of those $15 temp probe units side by side and I got 3 different readings... but a degree or two each. They are not very reliable, in my opinion.

But they DO give you a general idea...

[BoidKeeper]

Great idea, mine is in with the eggs too, until I get home that is.
Thanks crocdoc,
Trevor

[mykee]

Ok, I'll try that, thanks. One question though, when I slide open the glass to enter the incubator, the probe will be more sensitive to the temp fluctuations, since it is right there, as opposed to inside a rubbermaid. Not a problem?

[Jeff_Favelle]

Yeah, that's the BIG problem with air/dry incubators. Latent heat is ALWAYS a problem. I like the buffer of water. Unless you have a walk-in incubator, anything else is playing with fire, or, really really really hot air, as far as I'm concerned.

[BoidKeeper]

Well last year it was wet only this year I made more wet ones and one dry and I don't think I'll be making any more dry ones.
I followed crocdocs suggestion in my wet incubator as soon as I got home.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

Well said Trev.. I remember going through this with you 2-3 years ago when we first got on this site. I can remember you thinking that there must be more to the wet incubators because you were like "no way, this is too easy". In fact, that's the way it should be. Incubators SHOULD be the least of a python/colubrid breeders worries.

[BoidKeeper]

I've also came up with a modification this year. I had to slap one together and didn't have any bricks but I had a large piece of the plastic grate we put inside the egg boxes. The styro I was using had a step on the inside about half way up of each inside wall that the grate could rest on. So I droped in the heater, the grate, filled it and put in the egg box. Like you said, too easy.
Cheers,
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

Indeed! Awesome!

[Tim_Cranwill]

I don't know... I like my dry incubators better than my wet ones. I see the point about the heat sink though. That is a BIG drawback to the dry incubators but I felt having a submersible heater (even my Tronic) turn OFF and finding your incubator had dropped to 76F a WAAYY BIGGER drawback.

In the end, it's whatever gets the eggs to term and the babies a-pippin'! :)

[Jeff_Favelle]

That is a BIG drawback to the dry incubators but I felt having a submersible heater (even my Tronic) turn OFF and finding your incubator had dropped to 76F a WAAYY BIGGER drawback.

Why would the submersible just turn off? And you can use all sorts of heaters to heat the water, not just aquarium heaters. They are just the cheapest easiest way to do it. The best way is to use a water-bed heater and hook that up to a Helix. And if you have a good 2nd thermostat (like a Helix), you can always just CRANK the fish heater and use the thermostat of the Helix to control it.

OR, have two fish heater. Heck, have FIVE fish heaters and have them ALL going into a power bar that is controlled by a Helix. That way, even if one or two crap out (astronomically unlikely), heat will still be produced, and STILL be controlled thermostatically by the Helix. That is NO maintenance as far as I'm concerned! LOL!

[crocdoc]

Originally posted by mykee
Ok, I'll try that, thanks. One question though, when I slide open the glass to enter the incubator, the probe will be more sensitive to the temp fluctuations, since it is right there, as opposed to inside a rubbermaid. Not a problem?

Whether or not your thermostat probe is in the egg box or in the incubator, the whole incubator will probably drop in temperature a bit when you open the door. However, how your thermostat reacts, and what the eggs experience, will be different.

Scenario 1: Thermostat probe in the egg box. The incubator drops in temperature after you open the door, but the thermostat probe is well insulated in the egg box and doesn't pick up on the change. Since the heating elements haven't kicked back in, the incubator stays at that lower temperature until, eventually, even the egg box starts to drop in temperature. When this drop is picked up by the thermostat probe, the heating elements switch on, but it takes a while for this change to be picked up by the thermostat probe (being so well insulated in the egg box), so the thermostat continues to heat up long after it has passed the desired temperature... you know the rest (see my previous post)

Scenario 2: Thermostat probe in the incubator. The incubator drops in temperature after you open the door. The thermostat probe picks up on the change and the heating elements are switched on, taking the incubator back up to the desired temperature within a few minutes. The eggs in the egg box, well insulated and with a fair bit of thermal lag/inertia, don't feel the change at all (I've tested this with thermometers in the egg boxes themselves).

I use a dimming thermostat, so as the temperature approaches the desired temperature, the heating elements are dimmed. With some on/off thermostats, the incubator drops a fair bit in temp before the thermostat kicks in again.

[mykee]

UPDATE: I took your advice and placed the Helix probe in the incubator, removing it from inside the egg box. I have had a steady temp of 89.6 for the entire afternoon and evening. Thank you all for your great advice.

[crocdoc]

Glad I could be of help, Mykee

[Jeff_Favelle]

Dyno-miiiiiite!