Very close call with Midwest gloves

[SCReptiles]

There has been quite a bit of debate over the Midwest Kevlar gloves, will now I can tell you with certainty, they do not work! Tony (unBOAlievable) came over last night and was checking my breed females for signs of being gravid. I was holding about a 30 inch southern copperhead with the gloves on. She bit into the left thumb of the glove, and I felt the fang scrapping against my thumb. I think just a millimeter more and she would have broke the skin. Tony pulled the fang out with forceps and I pulled off the glove. There was venom on my thumb and the glove was wet to the touch on the inside. Its hooks and tubes from now on! =)

[corr]

Wow, that was a close call!!! I find the Kevlar gloves I use to handle glass are slice resistant but do next to nothing against punctures. Glad you're okay!

[edh]

Hello,

Glad to hear that you are OK!

But on the other hand I must say that it doesn't surprise me! I NEVER use gloves with venomoussnakes, not even the Kevlar stuff.

I also heard from other venomouskeepers that those Midwest gloves can not be 100% trustworthy! And I have heard off another close call when someone almost received a bite from a Daboia russelli (he bit right through a welding glove and there was venom inside the glove). The guy mistook the Daboia for a Boa sp.!!! :(

But I am wondering why anybody would want to hold a venomous snake with gloves? I defenitely prever my bare hands or tubes!

Just a thought!

Cheers,

Erik

[BWSmith]

Glad to hear that you are alright Chuck. There have been several instances of snakes getting through the gloves, and it has resulted in a couple envenomations. I keep a pair in the hot room, but they are rarely used and have never been used to restrain a venomous snake. Did the Copper strike like normal or did it grab on and chew?

[SCReptiles]

It chewed on the thumb, something similar to what an elapid would do. It couldn’t strike from the position I was holding it in. I have read accounts of those gloves standing up to some pretty powerful bites. Even the Great Ray Hunter told me a story about them protecting him one. I was skeptical about them, but I have defiantly formed my opinion now. ha ha. In looking back at this photo, I feel rather foolish. =)

[psilocybe]

Kevlar is great at deflecting things (like bullets), but rather poor at protecting a stabbing action (like from a knife, or in this case, fangs). Midwest does say on their site that these are not 100% guarenteed, and they are NOT puncture PROOF, they are puncture RESISTANT. Any snake with sizable fangs (i.e. most viperids) can easily puncure kevlar gloves. Elapids that do a chewing or walking bite (like the king your holding) can also puncture the gloves. I've never used the gloves before, but considering how I find gloves to make snake handling rather clumsy, it's not something i really considered using. It's hooks for me, and if need be, a gentle giant.

[Retic chic]

Midwest does not guarantee the gloves 100%.

As a distributor of Midwest products in Canada, we do not reccommend the gloves for use with venomous snakes.

They are good for dealing with monitors and crocodilians, but personally, I wouldnt use them for handling anything with needle sharp teeth. Hooks, tongs and tubes for hots, and hooks, tongs and traps for all the crabby constrictors.

Glad to hear that it was not a more seroius accident.

Sheila

[Scales Zoo]

You could feel fangs on your thumb? Did you have a change of underwear present?

At least it was just a copperhead, but still, I'd have needed to sit down after such a close call.

Glad it was just a close call

Thanks for sharing

Ryan

[TheRedDragon]

Glad to hear that you're alright Chuck; as Ryan stated, I sure hope you had a change of underwear with you.

[SCReptiles]

About my drawers, actually I wasn’t as concerned as I needed to be. When I felt the fang, I though she had penetrated the leather was still on the outside of the lining (the lining is the Kevlar.) I was calmly like “Tony work her fang out of this glove.” And he was like “ok” and slowly took the forceps and worked it back out, then I pulled off the glove. When we saw venom on my thumb we both knew we should have been more concerned at the time. ha ha. Actually some got into the soft part around the side of the nail and it burned for a while and today my thumb was a bit sore. Man, that was a close one! Thanks for the good wishes. Glad I wasn’t typing this from the locale hospital. Ha ha

[Gregg M]

First off, I am glad you are ok Chuck......
Secondly, AP is correct, A bullet proof vest is only bullet proof, not knife proof....... With a bullet there is the contact and the deflection..... There is no second or follow through pressure when the bullet hits...... But when a knife hits a target there is the first point of contact then there is follow up pressure much like in a snake bite..... There is the contact of the fang and it is followed up by the pressure of the bite and working jaw muscles...... I can see them helping somewhat with short fanged elapids because of the glove thickness but with longer fanged vipers your flesh is fair game...... Those gloves are trash and give handlers a false sence of security....... You are better off without them.....

[redcarpet]

Chuck,
Ricky was unpacking a green mamba,and the same thing happened to him.Luckly the fang just touch him.
I find that the gloves slow me down,and make me clumsy.
Good thing it wasn't a gaboon.

[Mustangrde1]

Chuck. Damnit becareful its hard eating cheesecake alone. Glad your ok and this is a very good lesson.

[Scales Zoo]

Originally posted by Gregg M
Those gloves are trash and give handlers a false sence of security....... You are better off without them.....

I'm looking for venomous keepers to give product recomendations for our Midwest products page on our website - can I use that quote for the gloves - haha.

Ryan

[justinO]

Wow.. you certainly dodged a bullet there. glad to hear you are alright.

just out of curiousity, are the midwest gloves similar to these from US Cavalry?

http://www.uscav.com/productinfo.aspx?productid=6914&tabID=

[JD@reptiles]

Tongs.com Clearly States
Midwest gloves are not guaranteed to be puncture proof, however they are highly puncture resistant. When handling venomous snakes in any manner, whether using gloves or not, the handler should use all means possible to avoid a bite.


So it could have hit a weak spot in the glove. I personaly would never use gloves to pick up a hot. i would use the gloves as a safety precaution while hooking.

My two cents....

Jordan

[Scales Zoo]

I wouldn't use gloves for venomous at all, too clumsy.

Gloves for monitors and crocodillians may be good to get your confidence level up, so you can grab one.

Ryan

[jay72]

Chuck,

Glad you are ok.

Here is a photo that I took last year when a former acquantance of mine was testing the gloves(despite my objection) with a King Cobra. This is what happened when he tried to gently catch the snake behind the neck.

As the snake bit the glove it 'chewed' on the glove and refused to let go for at least 3-5 minutes. Had he not moved his hand the snake would have pierced through the inside glove as he said that the inside of the glove was moist with venom.

Sloane Russeck

[JD@reptiles]

these snakes shouldn't be getting you guys.. why is this happening?

[redcarpet]

jay72,
I thought it was a weak spot in the glove that the mamba bit through.I guess it doesn't matter where.I'm just glad I never relied on the gloves!

[jay72]

Danny,

While Midwest makes great products, I was never comfortable with the gloves. I have never tried them myself because I dont trust them. There are better tools out there that are without a doubt much safer. There is just too much to lose to be taking chances on equipment that the manufactorer themselves isnt 100% sure of.

Sloane

[redcarpet]

I agree 110%.

I never have used the gloves myself,well I did use them one time when I had to sex over a 100 amozon tree boas.I will always relie on my hooks and grabers.I think once you touch the snake you chances of being bit goes up 300%!!!

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

I've been nailed twice through the gloves (malayan pitviper and a monocled cobra). After those two occured, I stopped using them for all vipers and medium/large elapids.

I still use them but only for very snappy, small elapids that are almost impossible to pin and neck (e.g. Suta suta) and Atractaspis species, for which the thickness of the gloves is thicker than the length of the fangs.

I find they work a treat in this situation.

Cheers
Bryan

[BWSmith]

Jeez PWD, and I thought Chuck's close call was a lesson.

I try think of ALL handling equipment for hots as "Precaution" rather than "Prevention". Nothing is 100%, but I trust ME more than anything that is manufactured. There are flaws in about every piece of handling equipment: I have seen pilstrom tongs kill a snake (they are only good for removing water bowls, etc.), I saw a hannah "viper strike" it's way out of GGs (she kept them for a day), I bent a Pro Field Hook, I had an Ultralight's handle fall off, had snakes split tubes, and the list goes on. And 90% of my equipment is Midwest. But I replace it with Midwest and I recommend Midwest. I think they are the best around. As hot keepers, we should always have back ups, and back up for the back ups. A ticked off hot in a closed space and your only hook "disabled" is not fun.

Equipment can fail. Being prepared and able to quickly adapt is a sign of a good venomous keeper. There is NO piece of equipment that can make a venomous species "safe".

Chuck, I am also very glad that you had another experienced hot keeper there. UnBoa is one of the few that I trust to help me with hots. I did luck out with a great wife that is eager to learn (learns very quickly as well) and help out. She is the most valuable asset to the hot room (particularly during medical treatment)


My lovely wife helping out.
http://redtailboa.net/gallery/data/d3d9446802a44259755d38e6d163e820/791_p14837.gif



OK, I jumped around enough. I'll get off my soap box now ;)

[Tim and Julie B]

Someone should inflate a latex glove, put it in the kevlar glove at end of something very long as a test. I'd be curious to see how quickly it would puncture. I saw a similar test done with ballons and "snake proof boots".

Ryan: I would have serious reservations about using those glove with a large powerful monitor. With most gloves I find your are more clumbsy and can easily lose your grip. TB

[KrokadilyanGuy3]

I agree with Tim. I was quite cumbersome using gloves with a Spectacle caiman. Wasn't the gloves in question, but gloves nonetheless-which also cost me a bite on the knee. Happily, it was only a love tap. I would rather feel the crocodilian, this way you would at least get some sort of idea on what's about to happen.

[BWSmith]

Originally posted by Tim and Julie B
Someone should inflate a latex glove, put it in the kevlar glove at end of something very long as a test.

Bryan Fry already did that when he was testing the gloves for Midwest. The review was in the SHHS newsletter and i assume that it is on venomousreptiles.org somewhere.

[M_surinamensis]

Just echoing sentiments already expressed really... They're not safe enough to risk using them as a sole handling tool for anything with any fang length/jaw power to speak of and personally I'd rather not lose the physical sensations and information avaliable by having direct contact with a hook. They do work pretty well for monitor/tegu claws although again the loss of sensory information and dexterity isn't worth it for experienced handlers.

However they're a great comfort to people who are afraid of snakes/lizards/inverts when they begin handling relatively harmless species... More a mental/emotional security blanket than any real use but it IS a value. The price above and beyond a set of welding gloves doesn't make this a particularly practical application most the time though.

The yellow and orange color scheme, Midwest logo and phone number and the elbow + length do make them pretty snazzy though. When working in a retail shop owned by a friend for a breif period of time, I won myself twenty bucks by working an eight hour day wearing a pair and explaining to anyone that asked why "Because I'm allergic to leopard gecko/cricket/anole/green tree frog venom" with a straight face (local shop, lot of regular clientelle and a somewhat relaxed atmosphere, nobody *left* thinking leopard geckos/etc. were venomous).

[Tim and Julie B]

Originally posted by BWSmith
Bryan Fry already did that when he was testing the gloves for Midwest. The review was in the SHHS newsletter and i assume that it is on venomousreptiles.org somewhere.

Well fine then.........:p !

What species? I wonder if it had to chew through and how long it took? Just curious.

[psilocybe]

Originally posted by Tim and Julie B
Well fine then.........:p !

What species? I wonder if it had to chew through and how long it took? Just curious.

He tested the gloves with a few different species, don't remember what, but I know O. hannah was one. I tried finding the article on SHHS, but couldn't locate it...I didn't really look that hard though :)

It's there if you look hard enough, good review, though it demonstrates (along with this thread) that these gloves SHOULD NOT be trusted with venomous reptiles!

[JD@reptiles]

lol. I wouldn't even use them for somthing rear fanged :P

[BWSmith]

It may only be in the SHHS newsletter and not on the site.

[psilocybe]

No, it is on the site (or at least was, and not too long ago), because I do not get the newsletter, and have personally read BGF's review more than once on SHHS's website. It's there somewhere (unless they deleted it), I just have no clue where.

Abhishek Prasad

[MouseKilla]

I've never thought of using Kevlar gloves when handling any snake but I have used them while working with steel often enough to confirm that they are great for stopping cuts but do nothing to prevent things poking through them and stabbing you.

[psilocybe]

The user reviews for the gloves on SHHS website are a little disturbing...some people showing WAY to much faith in these gloves. One guy claiming that they "take a bite from a 12 ft. king cobra no problem". I dunno...

[cobraman]

the gloves Ricky was wearing had already been comprimised by dogs chewing on them in the past (they were given to us by animal control) so the green mamba's fang went into a hole that was made previously by a dog's tooth.

[psilocybe]

Correction: BGF's review on the gloves is not on SHHS like i previously claimed...it's on tongs.com. Here's the link:

http://tongs.com/articles/index.php?Article=review_3.html

[psilocybe]

Correction: BGF's review on the gloves is not on SHHS like i previously claimed...it's on tongs.com. Here's the link:

http://tongs.com/articles/index.php?Article=review_3.html

[lakeridgekennel]

I had a pair ONCE but a nile got one and bite my index finger of my glove off and that was the last time i used gloves at all.

[edh]

Originally posted by psilocybe
Correction: BGF's review on the gloves is not on SHHS like i previously claimed...it's on tongs.com. Here's the link:

http://tongs.com/articles/index.php?Article=review_3.html

Hello,

I have seen BGF milk some venomous snakes at our reptile park. He did NOT wear any gloves. He did not trust them anymore.

So I think the article should be considered outdated and should be revised?

Cheers,

Erik

[psilocybe]

Originally posted by edh
Hello,

I have seen BGF milk some venomous snakes at our reptile park. He did NOT wear any gloves. He did not trust them anymore.

So I think the article should be considered outdated and should be revised?

Cheers,

Erik

I certainly was not suggesting that BGF's review made ME think they were safe...I personally have not used them, nor will I. Gloves (for me at least) seem to make handling a bit more clumsy. I'd say you are just as safe, IF NOT SAFER by just using safe handling techniques. Gloves can give on a false sense of security, and that can be the most deadly thing of all.

[Dr. Bryan Fry]

I have written them and ask that they remove the editorial (I actually asked this ages ago but it is still up there).

This is not to say that the gloves don't have some very good uses (ie small very snappy snakes). Some of the other products are brilliant, the probaggers for example make the king cobras so easy to work with they they almost aren't even fun any more!! If you use the gentle giants, what we found works its to put to no-skid felt or something similar on the inside gripping area of the tong. In the shipped form, elapids slide out of it very easily.

Cheers
Bryan

[hip]

wow I am glad to hear you will still be wreslin chuck I would hate to see you not be able to deliver a thumb to the eyes anymore. It is too bad that most people think these gloves are just like a kevlar vest they are not. Arimid(dupont trade name for kevlar) is designed to stop bullets that expand and is composed of numerous layers in a "flack jacket" and has a thin filler in between to reduce impact in the hit area. Those gloves are a one layer job (arimid) and just like a non metallic reinforced flack jacket do not stop non expanding bullets (metal jacket ) nor do they non expanding fangs. None the less glad to hear you are still cool with all you digits intact Chuckster


Hip