Cross breeding

[jparker1167]

I was at a herp show today and one of the vendors said that he heard that someone breed or was trying to breed jcp and gtp and was calling them jungle tree pythons. has anyone heard about this and what does everyone thing about it.

[Brian Petersen]

Hi. Yes it has been done.
Look at this page. http://www.chondroweb.com/DrFrankenstein/hybrids.htm


Regards

Brian

[mykee]

It's not a cool thing to try to beat mother nature to new snakes. If it hasn't happened in nature, it shouldn't happen in someones basement.

[672]

I don't think I agree with it, but it is a cool looking snake for sure.

[jparker1167]

thanks for the replys, that is a cool looking snake

[CHRISANDBOIDS14]

Those are somewhat neat looking, but I must say, I think the hybrid stuff it getting horrible and ridiculous!

C.

The emeralds by Amazons has already been done. Here is the link to some pictures:

http://www.corallus.com/urbanjungles/hybrids.html

[nicola_boulton]

wow, thats amazing. I Never even thought about cross breeding.let alone it actually happening!
im not sure if i agree with it either though:(

[NewLineReptile]

Originally posted by mykee
It's not a cool thing to try to beat mother nature to new snakes. If it hasn't happened in nature, it shouldn't happen in someones basement.

How do you know that it has not happened in Nature??????

Brandon

[djc3674]

wow...those are some cool lookin critters. I wouldn't mind having one. I don't think cross breeding is as big of a deal as some people make it. As long as the overall health of the animal is not compromised and it is being sold for what it actually is, then so what. Humans have been cross breeding for centuries...lol

[M_surinamensis]

If you pay attention, you'll note that there are no photos of adult "Carpondos" on that site, just juveniles... This is because the adults look like arboreal vomit.

Hybridization can do unpleasant and irreversable things to captive gene pools... "Creamcicle" corns were originally produced by crossing emoryi with corns. This was not widely advertised however and they were treated as simply another color variety of pure cornsnake... People bred them to pure corns, sold the offspring as pure corns and since the color traits are recessive, the link to the creamcicle animals is easily obscured and lost. These days I'd wager that unless you know for a fact where a breeder got their stock, a good portion of captive animals aren't pure corns no matter what pattern or morph they may be. Only a matter of time before someone does the same thing with "Jungle Corns" (corn X cal king) and the captive gene pool is tainted even further. Heck, there was an uproar from the milksnake community when it was discovered that albino pueblans were first produced in captivity by introducing the albino gene from Nelson's milks.

To some people, I suppose those hybrids are "cool" because they look different... To the rest of us, who appreciate our animals specifically for the way in which the species adapted to their environments, the wild color patterns and behaviors (including intrinsic isolating mechanisms which prevent wild hybridization), these things are simply a risk. I want a piece of nature, I want to appreciate how evolution and environmental pressures sculpted an animal to be as successful within an evolutionary niche as they are... I don't want some piece of crap basement lab creation where the females had to be artificially inseminated because the hemipenal structures wouldn't even allow for copulation.

[crocdoc]

Although I can understand other people being fascinated with morphs and hybrids, personally I'm a big one for purebred reptiles, even to the point where I would try my best to match parents from the same locale within the same species or subspecies. I find most hybrids fascinating to look at, but have no desire to own or produce one.

However, for those that are already into their morphs (supertigersnowcreamsicle or whatever), I can't see what difference it would make if the morph is a hybrid or not. It's already a freak.

[varanus69]

Originally posted by M_surinamensis
... People bred them to pure corns, sold the offspring as pure corns and since the color traits are recessive, the link to the creamcicle animals is easily obscured and lost.
You said it best yourself "easily obscured and lost "i bet you have some sort of albino corn or king and maybe even a het for something ball python right?
What about albino spider balls are they garbage? while i am not saying it is the best idea i don't see anything OVERLY wrong with it if they do it on there own.....If you need to artificially inseminate them then they should not be crossed..if we all kept our animals looking normal than great breeders such as corey woods (bp morphs) and jeff favelle (high end jungles) would be no more recognized in the industry than Aaron Robson.And if any one asks why i used jeff as a reference it is because while his animals are pure and beautiful i would challenge anyone to find a jcp in the wild that even comes close to the high yellows and and pure color of his awesome animals. As a final statement i like them but doubt i would breed them myself.

[M_surinamensis]

i bet you have some sort of albino corn or king and maybe even a het for something ball python right?

Not a one actually. However I DO have GTPs and Carpets and I really don't want to have to require lineage papers and importation documents in order to obtain an animal which I know is pure.

There is a difference between hybrids and color/pattern morphs, or even selectively bred animals. While none of these are common in the wild and any captive breeding automatically goes against the idea of natural selection there is a difference between circumventing any given animal's inclinations within a species and removing the species concerns entirely. It's a matter of degree and a significant one.

You don't have to agree of course... but you're not likely to change my mind on this.

[BoidKeeper]

Very well put mykee!
Cheers,
Trevor

[jparker1167]

they are cool looking snakes. but i wouldnt want one either i rather have a pure atb or etb not a mix of the two

[MarcB]

This reply is realy meant for Crocdoc,

I would like to discuss your statement of putting mutations in the same boat as Hydrids and calling them "Freaks"...

You said ;

However, for those that are already into their morphs (supertigersnowcreamsicle or whatever), I can't see what difference it would make if the morph is a hybrid or not. It's already a freak.

Are you considering mutations or morphs of any given pure strain snakes "already a freak"

I am vigourously against hydridizing and highly motivated by working with mutations. Mutations are what they are and should not be considered "freaks".

I respect your opinion and I'm trying to understand your statement?

[crocdoc]

mutations/freaks <---- it's all semantics. In the end, they aren't the pure, wild type of the species involved. Yes, I know that albinos and other mutations are sometimes found in the wild, but that doesn't stop them from being mutations that are usually quickly wiped out. The colouring and patterning of my animals is typical of others of the same species found in the same areas their ancestors were found.

I don't think either one of us will understand the other, Marc, and it would be like me trying to convince you that my favourite colour is better than your favourite colour.

Personally, I can't see the difference between an albinosupertigersnowgranitejaguar morph of one species, or a hybrid between that and another albinosupertigersnowgranitejaguar morph of another species. If you are going to go unnatural, why not go all of the way?

If it's any help, I'm like this with domestic breeds of dogs and cats - I prefer tabbies over Persians and dingos or huskies over pugs. :)

[MarcB]

You make valid points and also mention that mutations are sometimes found in the wild within population of pure locality animals that are, I concur, usualy quickly wiped out.

But we are talking captivity here. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I was under the impression Dingos were an introduced species in Australia. Glad you pointed that out.

[crocdoc]

Dingos are an introduced species to Australia, but that has nothing to do with what I am saying. Tabbies aren't native here, neither are huskies. There are no native dogs or cats in Australia.

My point was that I don't like man-made breeds and the further from its original wild look an animal gets, the less I like its appearance. Give me a wolfie looking husky over a pug or poodle any day.

As far as dingos go, they aren't native but they are still a wild type dog. Dingo type dogs are native to many of the islands of south east Asia. In other words, their appearance wasn't derived through human selective breeding, but through natural selection.

What I am getting at is that it is hard (in my opinion, anyway) to improve on nature. I've yet to see a single morph of the Burmese python that comes close the original wild type for attractiveness, despite the fact that your pet market is flooded with them.

[Lisa]

crocdoc has it exactly... our pretty snakes and morphs wouldn't survive out in the wild, they're too easily seen. they've been produced in captivity by selective breeding... some one has played god and said this snake and this snake should have some nice looking off spring. it's no different then crossing similar species, or crossing dogs.... is a pure bred one eyed albino boa better then a BCCxBCI (something that can happen in the wild)?


Personally for dogs I like mutts, they tend to be healthier.

[msubigdawg]

I know a lot of people hate this cross breeding and stuff but I don't think it is as horrible as you say. Look at other things that have done this, like dogs. I mean it worked out there wouldn't you say. I am not educated on the whole breeding thing myself but this is just my opinion. Some crosses can come out pretty awsome I think. But hey this is just my 2 cents.

[MarcB]

Crocdoc is right about the naturaly occuring pure strains, I never disputed this view...

I do not agree with his opinion of mutations being the same as hybrids, we are not talking apple & oranges here, more like apples and meat pie...

[crocdoc]

Actually, we are talking apples and pears, if you want a more appropriate analogy.

Your morphs and mutations are like different varieties of apples, granny-smiths, fujis, etc. Very far from the original wild apple but bred because people prefer their look and taste. Someone comes along who has decided to cross an apple with a pear for a different flavour again.

My stance is, what does it matter? Your stance is that it does.

If you were a fruit producer selling product to a market keen for new tastes and looks, the apple-pear is a winner.

If you were the owner of a botanical garden wanting to display a wild apple plant, the apple-pear hybrid would be a disaster, but so would all of the granny-smiths, fuji and other domestic varieties.

[Jeff_Favelle]

IS there a difference between a morph and an extremely line-bred colour/pattern that someone likes? Nature produced the morphs. The genes are there. Its not natural to breed them in plastic boxes anyways. If you breed a colour that occurred in nature anyways, who cares? Don't like them, don't buy them. Like then, buy them. Piece o' cake.

[crocdoc]

That's not actually what's being discussed here, Jeff. As I said earlier, it's all a matter of taste and preference. I am not a fan of morphs/mutations etc, Marc is. No biggee. As I said in the same post, trying to convince either one of us that the other is 'right' or 'wrong' would be like trying to convince someone that your favourite colour is better than their favourite colour.

The discussion is about hybrids between two species to get even more morphs/varieties/available mutations and whether or not there was anything intrinsically wrong with that.

[little_dragon_]

What a fantastic ethical debate

[sheffiec]

The only thing I have to say about crossbreeding, is like with dogs, have you ever noticed

that mix breeds are a lot more healthier than pure breds? Well, I have. Buddy, my purebred Doberman, has been to the vet in the first month that I have owned him with worms , where is our mut Mary, has never been on those flea prevention medicines for the last 5 years and when we brought Buddy and Mary in that one time Mary was fine, nothing wrong with her, but Buddy had the worms and skin rash on his front paw. Now of course the breeder could have been taking bad care for him when I bought him, but again my friend has a pit bull and he is always going into the vet for some problem. Another thing is Mary is always quick to training, like no begigng and sit and stay. It took me 4 months to get Buddy potty trained and 1 week for Mary, adn they btoh lived in apartments at that time. Now I know this is dogs, but who knows with sankes, they might be smart liek to when it comes to escaping from a tank. Each time you open it they see the hand coming in, they can learn quickly if they are smart.

If in the wil crossbreeding does not happen, than you should watch those Most extreme videos on a bird that tries to have sex with everything that coems in it's path. Now I would guess snakes in the wild might be a bit desperate for mating with a female who has just shed and it is irrisistable. Jungle Carpet Pythons live in eastern Australie, Green Trees are right at the coast of eastern Australia, what do you think are the chances of a jungle running into a green tree and are desperate, that might mate. I would think it could a small chance, just becasue of the environment that they both live in, but again all kids of things happen int he wild. Now as far as surviving, I don't know.

Well, I don't know what I have said here now, just becasue I think I started rambling on, but I believe I made a good point. Some person on this forum said you cannot convince someone to like your color more than there's, that is very true and intuitive, so all I am saying is how I feel form the facts that I have seen, that doesn't mean you have to believe me. Well, everyone have a good day!

[crocdoc]

Breeding two breeds of dogs isn't the same sort of crossbreeding we were talking about, as all dogs are the same species. Developing a pure breed of dog, however, usually involves some inbreeding at some point, which is why so many have built in 'faults' and tend not to be as hardy as your standard mutt.

But that's a different issue again - inbreeding.

Crossbreeding occurs in the wild, but very rarely. When two populations of a single species of animal speciate (become two separate species), there is usually something that prevents them from interbreeding - like geography (they may be on different islands, or on either side of a mountain range) or behaviour (different breeding seasons, different cues to breeding - they may just not like the look or sound of each other, which is the case with a lot of birds). If they can interbreed easily, they usually don't speciate to start with.

The problem with looking at a map of Australia and seeing that jungles and green tree pythons appear to live in the same area is that those maps are too broad to show you that these snakes have very different microhabitats, or even habitats. Sure, they both live in North Queensland, but you'll find on close examination that they have different habitat preferences.

[hhw]

Hate to bring back such an old topic, but I just read it and was thinking...

If two species/subspecies are closely related enough to breed successfully, would that not indicate that they diverged from a common ancestor not so far back? So, in doing so, would you not simply produce an animal that is closer to the ancestor of both species/subspecies?

Of course, I guess you can argue whether the offspring possessed more divergent evolutionary adaptations or less of them.

[Darren179]

in my opinion if they wont breed together bythemselves they should not be crossed.