Jason, Fyi

[cobraman]

Jason, I have been to Scott's house on numerous occasions, and have NEVER seen a venomoid snake there. In fact I have been a part of his collections growth, so I know every snake he has had, and has now. The cobra photo you posted was taken at my warehouse a long time ago when we still had a few venomoids. So what if Scott had a photo taken of himself with the snake. The fact is that he did not own it, and we do not deal in venomoids (and have not in about 2 years now).

Danny (redcarpet) has been to see Scott's collection only 2 weeks ago, and he will attest that there are no venomoids there.

I read the petition in full, and agree that (if it's not too late) there could be some grammatical improvements to it. I will take this up with Scott, and help with that aspect if he so choses. But please do not come in here and try to ruin a good thing by picking at Scott. What we are doing could someday save a life, so we don't need any negativity posted just because you seem to have some sort of personality conflict with Scott.

I did not start this thread to get involved in a bickering match with you or anyone else. If you have any problems, please feel free to contact me on a one on one basis (you have my cell #)

Blessings
Ray Hunter

[redcarpet]

Yes,I was at scott's home two weeks ago,and I didn't see any venomoid snakes there.I know that Scott has never owned a venomoid.

I also read the petition in full, and agree with Ray.Scott, thank you for your time and work on this matter.

[jaybee]

Ray and Danny
I'm not trying to start trouble.I like the petition,and what it will do for the movement.It just looks like a 10year wrote it.I also don't understand why Scott would have photos of him with voids on this forum, given his feelings on venomoids.

[jay72]

I have been over Scotts house on numerous occasions and know him very well. For anybody to say that he owns/owned a venomoid is an out and out lie.

I commend Scott for taking the time to right up the petition. It obviously has positive results.

The grammatical errors will be fixed. It didnt bother the 290+ people who signed it.

Sloane Russeck
russeck@bellsouth.net

[Rob@RK Reptiles]

I as well have been to Scott's house and there is not and never will be any Venomoid animals on Scott's property nor will he ever own one. I have know Scott for a couple of years now and for as long as I have been friends with him he is very openly adamant about not owning venomoids and that they should not be owned by anyone. I totally agree with him on this message. If a person wants to own a Venomous species of snake (or a lizard) then gain the knowledge how to care for and own it properly without the animal having to go through a needless, horrific surgical procedure for nothing more than a person who lacks the responsibility nor maturity to be able to hand a "hot" snake properly and safely.

[SCReptiles]

I was there at the end of April, no Vemonoids present at that time. However, there was a cheesecake there when I arrived and there was none left at the time of my departure. I know how that must look, but I assure each of you, it was only coincidence.

[cobraman]

I also don't understand why Scott would have photos of him with voids on this forum, given his feelings on venomoids.

Jason, I am not fond of Black Mambas, yet I have photos of me with them (see below). I don't like gators, yet I have pics of myself with gators.

It just looks like a 10year wrote it.

I spoke to Scott about this. He says that the lawyer that reviewed the petition says that the wording must remain the same, but otherwise I can correct the spelling and grammar, then e-mail it to Will to repost. So within the next few days, you can be looking for the corrections.

Incidently, I did not see you name on the petition. I thought you said that you were in favor of this.

Blessings
Ray Hunter

[SCReptiles]

You can’t make the case that you like everything you have your picture made with. Barry and I once took a pic with BW???? HA HA HA HA

[jaybee]

Ray,
You sould have trianed under him. I think his mamba is bigger.

[jaybee]

This guy is nutts.I wonder if he has his own TV show?

[jaybee]

I didn't think mambas were tame I guess I'm wrong.Does any one know were I can get on of this wonderful snakes.My kids will love it.

[jaybee]

BTW I fully intend to sign the petition,but only if it doesn't look like a 10year old wrote it.

[SCReptiles]

Dude, you have been on a vendetta against Scott ever since I have been on this site. I would like to know, exactly what is your problem with the guy? What did he ever do to you?

[BWSmith]

Originally posted by SCReptiles
You can’t make the case that you like everything you have your picture made with. Barry and I once took a pic with BW???? HA HA HA HA

:D

[Mustangrde1]

You know the hilarious thing about all that is this person appears to think it bothers me. D'oh its no secret i worked with ERJ when they had the venomoids. I have even talked about it and said because of what i witnessed and saw and a particular insodent with a supposed venomoid that was not is why im so against this. I have never owned yes i worked with them it was part of my job with ERJ that included all the reptiles hot and not. So whats your problem anyway and why so afraid to post your real name?

[jaybee]

I'm not afraid, my name is Jason.

[jaybee]

Chuck, I have no real problem with Scott, I like the idea of the petition, and think he did a good DRAFT of it that should have been proof read prior to posting. Other than that, he tends to stretch the truth a bit, but I don't think he can help that anymore.

SIGNED!
JASON

[Cruciform]

Hey Jason,

How about posting your full name?

Seeing as we know Chuck, Ray, Scott's, etc. names in full, yet you claim you're not afraid to let your name be known after your trolling the forum.

If you're going to be taking shots at someone else's reputation, why not drop the cloak of anonymity. It's only fair.

[SCReptiles]

I am not just talking about this time, you have been after him for hell and ever. Remember Mustangrde2? Which I was thought was funny by the way, but that is beside the point. You have been chasing Scott since I stated using this website. Lighten up on him or at least tell me why you have such a score to settle with him? And I think you will be very hard pressed to find a herper that doesn’t stretch the truth a little from time to time. ha ha

[Mustangrde1]

And what is your last name now. Believethe question was full name?

[jaybee]

So whats your problem anyway and why so afraid to post your real name?

Scott, in case you can't remember, I quoted you above (notice you did NOT ask for a last name?)

Chuck, I have said this numerous times, but will say it again....I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SCOTT!!!!!

All I want is to see the petition done correctly. If we are to expect ONLY PROFESSIONALS to do the venomoid surgeries (as the petition states) then our petition should be of no less quality. Don't you agree?

Now that Ray Hunter has volunteered to fix it up, I am confident that it will be of a higher standard (no offence to anyone else).

Chuck, Scott knows very well who I am, and regardless of how everyone wants to try to play me against him, I have no hard feelings towards him. I may have been having a bit of fun with him, but there was no harm meant. Scott, If I hurt your feelings, please accept my sincere appology. But you got to admit the photos are somewhat humorous for someone that is strongly against voids.

Nobody seems to defend Cobraman (ray) when he gets blasted for his odd mannor of handling cobras (albeit ray's are actually hot). I think he is a little crazy, but he is good at what he does. But I have heard ray say that he would never allow anyone else to do anything unsafe in his venomous room, so why would we believe that he would allow Scott (or anyone else) to free handle a cobra in the mannor that the posted picture shows Scott doing?

Anyway, no hard feelings all.

Jason

[cobraman]

Jason, thanks for your vote of confidence, however, I question your motives and sincerity in some of what you wrote. If your intentions are good, the goodness is diminished by your repeated stabs at Scott. There is no benefit of consistently posting silly pictures of Scott having a little fun with a few venomoids. The thread that those pics were originally posted on has long been deleted, so there was no danger of venomoid propionates seeing the pictures (as you stated to be your concern).

I have corrected the typos that were in the venomoid petition, and the corrected version has been e-mailed to both Scott and Will to replace the original. If you are a man of your word, I’ll expect to see your signature on it.

I have now addressed both of the concerns you claim prompted you to come back on this site and launch attacks against Scott. If I missed anything, I would invite you to contact me via phone or e-mail so I can address those issues.

Scott and I are opposed to voids for many reasons, but the thing that did it for me was the fact that the few voids we had (when I started running ERJ) did not fare well. Most of them died, or were not fit to be sold. In one case, a Papuan Black Snake (that was supposed to be a void with gland implants) was in fact still venomous. I verified that the snake was still hot with two methods. This could have resulted in someone’s death, had I not discovered the problem prior to the snake’s sale. Scott’s display of the green mamba may have been to show how the surgery tends to affect the snake’s total character. There was not one venomoid snake there that ever made an effort to bite after the surgery was performed. This is un-natural, and I doubt it is a sign of a healthy snake.

If you are truly on our side in this matter, you will not complicate matters with silly posts. Feel free to call me if you need to.

Blessings
Ray Hunter

[Hot&Crocs]

The new petition has been updated with the one Ray wrote.

http://reptilians.org/petitions/petvenom

~WILL~

[jaybee]

Thank you, Ray & Will. Now the petition looks like it was done correctly. Now I can sign it.
Jason

[psilocybe]

Just because a snake is venomoid does not mean it should be shunned. It is still an animal deserving of care and attention to it's needs. I would NEVER purchase a venomoid, but I would take one in as a "rescue" (I don't run a rescue, hence the quotations). I don't support the practice and am vehimently against ANYONE (including a vet) performing this on a snake...however, I don't see how taking a picture with a venomoid is anything to slam someone about. The snake is still a snake and nothing less. Now if Scott were buying venomoids, you could bet that everyone who posted here, including me, would be on him like flies on s***.

AP

[redcarpet]

Just because a snake is venomoid does not mean it should be shunned

psilocybe,
I think we all feel the same way you do.Jaybee just posted those silly pics to get a rise out of scott.I guess it makes people feel good about them selfs,when they pick fights with others.

[Hot&Crocs]

I think we all feel the same way you do.Jaybee just posted those silly pics to get a rise out of scott.I guess it makes people feel good about them selfs,when they pick fights with others.

You are 100% right!!!! You hit the nail on the head! :)

I look at it this way....all of us have the same passion and interest. We should stick together and help one another out instead of fighting about things. There might me times to fight but there is a way to do it instead of degrading them.

I thought it was quite funny with those pictures! :)

Scott I thought did an excellent job, yes it might have been not just so, but that is when someone should email him privately and mention it. I am not picking on anyone here at all. I guess I am giving you my 2 cents! :) LOL

~WILL~

[Gregg M]

Yeah well, bad spelling is something Scott is known for...... But think about this, Einstein was one of the worst spellers in history......

[Gary O]

I see this person say Scott is a liar. Scott has been a great friend and has helped me many many times. I trust Scott 110% Scott OWNING a void. Yeah that will be the day I give may collection away for free.

Scott sucks at spelling so do I and many other people. SO WHAT! It is the meaning behind this not the spelling.

[cobraman]

Just because a snake is venomoid does not mean it should be shunned. It is still an animal deserving of care and attention to it's needs.


This has never been about the snakes themselves. The snakes can't help it if some hacker chops them up. This is all about us being against the unqualified hackers, not the snakes.

[psilocybe]

Originally posted by cobraman
This has never been about the snakes themselves. The snakes can't help it if some hacker chops them up. This is all about us being against the unqualified hackers, not the snakes.

Ray,

I wasn't referring to the venomoid petition, or anything like that, I support the petition fully, and yes, I know it's about the hacker scum. It's just you sometimes here people saying things like "I hate venomoids", or referring to the snakes as "venomoid trash"...it's the hackers that are the trash.

[herpetological]

In regards to the arguement.....No Scott has no voids...Yes, the petition has errors gramatically and otherwise....There was a purpose that seems to be missed.....GETTING THE MESSAGE OUT AND EDUCATING PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT AWARE OF THE PROBLEM. This is a petition which was formed in order to help both those for and against venomoids. It was meant to save lives...the very lives we as dedicated enthusits on both side of the "keeper" issue profess to care for. Why take away from that very purpose for petty personal issues...I saw you criticize Scott's version however, I did not see you do the proper thing and offer to help Scott edit the document. Hmmmm?????Think about that issue. If you were sincere about not taking serious jabs at Scott how about making it known that they were just that?? Easy step...put "LOL's just kidding..." Scott isn't perfect...none of us are. By the way....I have yet to see any single legal document that was not edited a dozen times before it was complete. Interestingly enough is that many times the document, it's wording and the very thing it was meant to address often are far different in the end. What we need to worry about is keeping it from straying too far away from the origional objective and goals. (Yes I can see spelling errors and sentence structure errors above...it's to late and i'm too tired...Besides you can get the message....Hmmm....No offense Jason, you may just have came across wrong. Again, next time it might be better to offer help rather than digging at someone.

[MsTT]

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with handling a poor abused venomoid snake, as long as:

1. You did not have ANYTHING to do with abusing the animal, including giving any financial support to the abusers.
2. You fully understand the risk of being envenomated by a "venomoid" that has any small scrap of gland tissue left.

Venomoids deserve good compassionate care like any other abused snake. If one came to my doorstep as a rescue, it would be treated like any other scarred animal that had been abused and given good care. I feel sorry for them and I want them to have good responsible homes, though that home will probably not be with me in the long term.

In some circumstances I might even buy or sell a venomoid, with the caveat that it would absolutely have to be a rescue animal. I won't give any money to support venomoid hackers or dealers who profit from selling venomoids, or any snake owner who chose to make the animal a venomoid. That only rewards animal abuse, and that's a bad idea. But sometimes people end up with venomoids more or less by accident, when they would not have chosen for the snake to be venomoid if they had a choice in the matter.

I was briefly involved in one venomoid transaction where the original owner had died and his snakes wound up being adopted out to various keepers. Two were venomoid. We had no way of knowing whether he bought them as venomoids on purpose, or who made them, or why. Nobody even knew that this guy had owned any venomoids prior to his death, and it was a little late to ask him any questions. I was offered one of the venomoids and I passed the offer instead to a responsible keeper who was breeding that species. I have no personal use for a void and the other keeper did have a use for a female of that species.

Making that snake a void originally was an unethical thing to do, but at the point it was offered to me, there was nobody profiting from animal abuse. There was just an abused animal needing a home....preferably NOT with some yahoo who would take it to the shopping mall around his neck. No money changed hands, but I don't think it would have been particularly wrong of me to have accepted the animal and then sold it to a responsible keeper. Nor would it have been wrong for anyone to buy the animal at that point. The only person who might possibly have been involved in the original decision to cripple the animal was not going to profit by it.

As another example, if I rescued a botched venomoid that needed vet care to survive, it would get that care and then it would be sold for cost of vet bills - that's been my standard operating policy and it wouldn't be changed just because a snake was hurt in a particular way. If the vet had to open up that area anyway we'd probably have a try at restoring normal functionality as part of the healing process, but we would not put the animal through additional pain to reverse the venomoid operation.

A venomoid snake is just another abused animal that should be treated kindly. There is nothing wrong with having one or handling one. There is plenty wrong with buying one under most circumstances, and of course with making one. But if you wind up with a venomoid that you really didn't choose to make that way on purpose, that's not your fault and nobody should blame you.